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Sceptical believer

Doggerland

863 posts in this topic

I have mentioned Juergen Spanuth a couple of times in this thread.

He was convinced that Atlantis City was nothing but Hel(i)goland, and that the whole of Atlantis was the area now occupied by Denmark, and the southern part of Sweden, and the submerged areas in between. And he also said it happened around 1500 BC, and that the people fleeing the area when it got flooded ended up in Egypt as one of the Sea Peoples.

Well, I do have 'some' problems with that, but nevertheless he had an interesting theory.

And here is an extract from Juergen Spanuth's "Atlantis of the North"

Amazingly, the assertion has been made that the area between

Heligoland and Eiderstedt has been under the sea for 6000 years; and

that consequently the island Abalus/Basileia/Farria/Fositesland could

never have lain there (Gripp 1953). This is contradicted by the

researches of all genuine experts in the geology and oceanography of

this area, whose results may now be summarized.

The Kiel geologist E. Wasmund placed the amber island 'off the coast

of Eiderstedt, where tertiary clays overlay amber- and carbon-bearing

sands' (1937, p. 36). The geologists W. Wolff .and H.C. Reck, also

from Kiel, wrote: 'One may well accept that somewhere between

Heligoland and Eiderstedt lies the ancient amber land ... so it is

also probable that in this area lies the island Abalus of the

ancients' (1922, p. 360). O. Pratje, one of the greatest experts on

the geology of Heligoland, wrote: 'But Heligoland remained joined on

the east side to the mainland, from which it projected as a peninsula.

Its submersion did not occur all at once, but piecemeal; this can be

seen from the series of underwater terraces, the remains of former

shorelines. . . The Stone Age and Bronze Age people, whose remains

have been found on Heligoland,must have reached here dryshod, without

having to cross any wide sea inlets. For at that time the island was

joined to the mainland'. (1953, p. 57f.) C. Delf, an outstanding

expert on the history of North Frisia, wrote that the island of

Abalus/Basileia lay 'east of Heligoland, but 15-20km west of St Peter'

(1936, p. 126).

R. Hennig looked for the island, on the evidence of the ancient

authors, 'halfway between Heligoland and the mainland' (1941, p. 955).

Finally, the prehistorian C. Ahrens has stated on the evidence of many

geological, oceanolographic and archaeological investigations: 'At all

events some particularly high-standing parts of the south ridge must

have remained as islands, whose traces can still be recognized on the

Steingrund, the 'Loreley bank', and near Oldenswort - today part of

the mainland of Eiderstedt.' He further stated that, 'This chain of

islands resisted the attacks'of the sea for a considerable time, in

places perhaps to the frontier of historic times' (1966, p. 38-9).

But there is more. There is reliable evidence to show that this island

was still inhabited up to medieval times. I have already described

how, after the catastrophic flooding of 1220 BC, the island

re-surfaced when the sea retreated during the Iron Age. It will be

shown below (page 250) that it was visited by Pytheas of Massilia in

about 350 BC and its position precisely described. I have also

described the reports of the early Christian missionaries, and of Adam

of Bremen.

In papal documents from the period 1065-1158, 'Farria' is mentioned as

a bishop's see (Carstens 1965, p. 52ff.). Eilbert, for example, is

described as 'Farriensis Episcopus'. In the year 1065, Pope Alexander

wrote to the bishops of Denmark, mentioning that Archbishop Adalbert

of Hamburg had complained of Bishop Eilbertus, 'Farriensis Episcopus',

who had failed to appear at synods for three years and had committed

various offences. At the same time Adalbert wrote to King Sweyn (or

Svein) II of Denmark, to a'sk him to break off all communication with

Eilbert of Farria and to take over the collection of church revenues

(Diplomatarium Danicum, 1963, No. 5).

The island of Farria is also mentioned later. About 1193, a Bishop Orm

'Faroensis'1 is named next to Bishop Hermann of Schleswig

(Diplomatarium Danicum, 1963, No. 77). The Emperor Frederick

Barbarossa declared in a deed of 1158 that the privileges which were

accorded to the bishop of Hamburg were to be extended and Hamburg was

to be the metropolitan see for Farria also. In the documents of the

time, 'Farria' and 'Frisia' alternate.

Laur has given it as his opinion that 'Farria' is to be understood as

the Faeroes (1951, p. 416ff.). But this is impossible. The Faeroes do

not lie 'in the mouth of the Elbe', 'across from Hadeln', as Adam of

Bremen described the site of Farria. They have never been inhabited by

Frisians, nor are they 'on the boundary between the Frisians and the

Danes', nor(as the scholiast stated) 'visible from an island at the

mouth of the Eider'. Besides, the history of the bishops of the

Faeroes is perfectly well known. The first one was called Gudemund; he

died in 1116; his successor Matthew in 1157. And the missionaries

Wulfram, Willibrord and Liudger were never on the Faeroes.

So we have evidence from Papal and Imperial documents from the

eleventh and twelfth centuries that the island of Farria/Heiligland

existed at that time and had by no means sunk into the sea 6000 years

previously.

It is most probable that Heimreich used older documents now lost for

his North Frisian Chronicle of 1666 when, in the passage I have

already quoted (page 47), he stated that on 'Siidstrand' or

'Heilig-land' (which he elsewhere calls 'Heiligland or Farria insula')

there were nine parishes 'anno 1030', but that after the great floods

of 1202 and 1216 'but two churches remained'. According to Heimreich

these last two churches finally disappeared after the 'great deluge'

of 1362. It appears from a letter of indulgence of the Council of

Basle in the year 1442, that during the preceding period on the west

coast of Schleswig no fewer than sixty churches had been flooded over

(Peters 1929, p. 542). At that time (1362) according to the Dithmarsch

chronicler Neocorus, who was preacher in Busum from 1590 to 1624,

'between flood and ebbtide 200,000 folk were drowned' (1.313).

On the oldest extant map of Heligoland, we find written to the east of

it, 'Here is a stone-work that stretches one and a half miles into the

sea, where in past time, they say, seven churches stood. They can

still be seen at low water.' The 'mile' here is the Danish mile of

7.42km. So in 1570 ruins could still be seen at low water 11-12 km

east of Heligoland. W. Stephe, who studied this map (1930, p. 96)

remarked that the tradition of the seven churches is found also' in

Rantzau and other sixteenth-century writers. Caspar Danckwerth, the

learned doctor and Burgomaster of Husum, whose work describing the

country was 'unequalled in its time for scope and accuracy' (Hedemann

1926, p. 878) confirmed these reports, and said that even at high

water one could walk eastwards from Heligoland 'for a mile [7.42km] on

the sand'.

In King Waldemar II's 'Earth Book' of 1231, we find: 'Eydersteth and

Lundebiarghaereth, whence the King is used to cross over to Utland'.

So Utland, or Siidstrand, between Eiderstedt and Heligoland, must have

been large enough in 1231 for King Waldemar to find accommodation

there for a whole army.

In the Eiderstedt Chronicle, which records many events from the period

between 1103 and 1547, we read under the year 1338: 'Here began Utland

first to break in two, and all the dykes to break up' (Peters 1929, p.

581). There is an old map which must have been drawn before 1634

because it shows the island of'Strand' which was destroyed in that

year.

On it is written:' Universa haec regio Frisica Septentrionalis

olimfuit terra . . . in tot partes disrupta? ('This whole region of

North Frisia was once land, but has been broken up into many parts').

Johannes Petrejus, 'whose notes are fully confirmed by documents in

the Royal Archives at Copenhagen' (Panten 1976), reported in the year

1597 that in an old missal of the church of St Peter, the island was

'called Siiderstrand', but that it had 'now disappeared'. These and

many other pieces of evidence show that in the early Middle Ages, an

island or a chain of islands still lay between Heligoland and

Eiderstedt, 'of which part was of old called Utland or Siiderstrand,

that once reached as far as Heligoland' (Heimrefch 166b, 80).

The last remains of these islands must, as Heimreich says, have sunk

in the 'great deluge' of 1362, which is mentioned not only by Neocorus

but by the Eiderstedt Chronicle: 'Anno 1362 at midnight there came the

greatest of floods; then were drowned most of the folk of Utland'

(Peters 1929, p. 581).

A fatal ignorance of these and many other historical and geological

researches is shown in Gripp's assertion that the 'Area around

Heligoland sank slowly into the sea about 5000 BC. The Neolithic

remains that have been found on Heligoland are simply the remains of

hunting expeditions, for it was only visited from time to time by

hunters. A Bronze Age settlement there is not indicated.' In answer I

refer him to the many Bronze Age finds, and the thirteen Bronze Age

grave-mounds, which 'show the existence of a considerable settlement

on Heligoland up to the period 1550-1300 BC' (Zylman 1952, p. 39;

Ahrens 1966, p. 244).

Equally imbecile - in the face of the many catastrophic floods of

which we have not only documentary evidence but traces in the shape of

finds from drowned woods and settlements - are Wetzel's assertion that

'our geological evidence indicates gradual, on the whole

disturbance-free, processes', and his talk of'Spanuth's outdated

catastrophe-theory'; and the appeals to 'special researches' whose

results are not available and which in spite of repeated invitations

he cannot produce.

These two gentlemen know nothing of the 'Steingrund', about which they

asked, and nothing about the undersea ridge between Heligoland and

Eiderstedt, which was formerly known as the 'Siiderstrand'. This

underwater ridge is still clearly visible on the isobath chart of the

sea between Heligoland and Eiderstedt.

http://www.archivum....axon-times.html

These are the 'walls' he saw:

........OK, the pic doesnt show up (what's new, eh?), but here's the link:

http://1.bp.blogspot.../Atlantis+3.jpg

I uploaded it to a picture host, and here it is:

Spanuth_bathy.jpg

And it's from http://punkadiddle.b...is-mystery.html

That site is not too friendly about Spanuth and his theory...

EDIT:

Concidering the geology of Helgoland, I think it may indeed have been an important geological feature of Doggerland, near the mouth of the Elbe river during the Mesolithic, maybe even a harbor. Mind you, the Elbe runs to the center of Europe, and it starts but a short distance of the Danube river.

Doggerland-suggested-settlement-sit.jpg

helgoland0.gif

Off the isle of Heligoland, parallel rock walls 45 feet underwater have been discovered, constructed of black, white and red rocks. Pollen analysis of the sea bottom suggests that this sea, in its present shape, originated within “recent” times. The date of 1500 B.C. is often selected.

http://www.beforeus.com/drowned.html

As far as I know, no marine archeologist ever found submerged 'walls' near Heligoland. No doubt they did research the area, but only found the remants of ancient dunes that , yes, did indeed run parallel to the ancient shore line.

If anyone knows more about these submerged 'walls" made of black, white and red rocks, please let me know.

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Posted (edited)

Off the isle of Heligoland, parallel rock walls 45 feet underwater have been discovered, constructed of black, white and red rocks. Pollen analysis of the sea bottom suggests that this sea, in its present shape, originated within “recent” times. The date of 1500 B.C. is often selected.

http://www.beforeus.com/drowned.html

As far as I know, no marine archeologist ever found submerged 'walls' near Heligoland. No doubt they did research the area, but only found the remants of ancient dunes that , yes, did indeed run parallel to the ancient shore line.

If anyone knows more about these submerged 'walls" made of black, white and red rocks, please let me know.

Hi Abe,

Wasn't able to find much on your question in the professional literature. Will look a bit more. I have a suspicion that this may be (as you have presented) in reference to Jurgen Spanuth material. The below contains a glimmer;

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,935699,00.html

Note date. Another;

http://dancingfromgenesis.wordpress.com/2008/06/16/north-sea-helgoland-germany-submerged-archaic-underwater-seafloor-continental-shelf-stone-block-walls-ruins-time-magazine-online-article-june-16-2008-reports-lutheran-pastor-jurgen-spanuth-port-husu/

Most of this "info" seems to being propagated on Creationist sites, and they appear to be getting some factors rather confused.

As you have probably already vetted, the Jonathan Gray site referenced above is, shall we say, questionable? In addition, it would appear that Gray was an associate of Wyatt (Ron). Now there is a combo.

http://isitso.org/guide/wyatt.html

Hope this provides some leads.

.

Edited by Swede

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Abe - Addendum: Have spent some additional time on the topic. Nothing credible as of this point, but I thought that you might find the following to be of interest for a number of reasons. Have not had the time to explore all the resources, but did a perfunctory overview. The apparent lack of information may be telling.

http://www.cyberpursuits.com/archeo/uw-arch.asp

.

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Posted (edited)

If anyone knows more about these submerged 'walls" made of black, white and red rocks, please let me know.

Hello Marie,

Thankyou for your email. It is good to hear from you.

Wish I could help you, but I gather information from hundreds

of sources. I only keep documentation for the sources that relate

to the more important data, otherwise I would not have room to

store it all. and sorry to say I did not consider this particular one

to be of world shaking importance.

Very best wishes

Jonathan

On 5/07/2010 5:01 a.m.,

Hello

In one of your articles you said:

There is evidence that there were forests where now the North Sea extends. On the Dogger Bank in the middle of the sea are stumps of trees with their roots still in the ground. Divers have brought up stone axes and mastodon bones, from the time when the North Sea was land. Off the isle of Heligoland, parallel rock walls 45 feet underwater have been discovered, constructed of black, white and red rocks. Pollen analysis of the sea bottom suggests that this sea, in its present shape, originated within “recent” times. The date of 1500 B.C. is often selected.

Can you please link me to where you found this information regarding the rocks being colored?

Thank you

Edited by Qoais

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Hello Marie,

Thankyou for your email. It is good to hear from you.

Wish I could help you, but I gather information from hundreds

of sources. I only keep documentation for the sources that relate

to the more important data, otherwise I would not have room to

store it all. and sorry to say I did not consider this particular one

to be of world shaking importance.

Very best wishes

Jonathan

On 5/07/2010 5:01 a.m.,

Hello

In one of your articles you said:

There is evidence that there were forests where now the North Sea extends. On the Dogger Bank in the middle of the sea are stumps of trees with their roots still in the ground. Divers have brought up stone axes and mastodon bones, from the time when the North Sea was land. Off the isle of Heligoland, parallel rock walls 45 feet underwater have been discovered, constructed of black, white and red rocks. Pollen analysis of the sea bottom suggests that this sea, in its present shape, originated within “recent” times. The date of 1500 B.C. is often selected.

Can you please link me to where you found this information regarding the rocks being colored?

Thank you

That's a damned shame, it would have been interesting to know where he got that from. Good effort though Q, thanks.

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Abe - Addendum: Have spent some additional time on the topic. Nothing credible as of this point, but I thought that you might find the following to be of interest for a number of reasons. Have not had the time to explore all the resources, but did a perfunctory overview. The apparent lack of information may be telling.

http://www.cyberpurs...heo/uw-arch.asp

.

Thanks Swede, that last link is interesting.

The links in your forner post, yeah, I know of them, but I refrained from posting them because of their lack of - let's say- science.

To Spanuth's defence: I don't think he was intentionally lying, but maybe he just saw down below what he wanted to see.

If there really had been an oval structure, a fortification, I will bet that it would be all over the internet. And the reason it is not has nothing to do with the dept of any finds: Spanuth claimed he could see it while looking over board.

Btw, somewhere earlier in this thread I copied a post from some forum; someone living in a village on the east coast England said that it was wellknown, early in the 20th century, that their were remnants of villages and structures on the Dogger Bank, sometimes even visible with the naked eye.

Well, I'd love to see those too.

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Posted (edited)

Hello Marie,

Thankyou for your email. It is good to hear from you.

Wish I could help you, but I gather information from hundreds

of sources. I only keep documentation for the sources that relate

to the more important data, otherwise I would not have room to

store it all. and sorry to say I did not consider this particular one

to be of world shaking importance.

Very best wishes

Jonathan

On 5/07/2010 5:01 a.m.,

Hello

In one of your articles you said:

There is evidence that there were forests where now the North Sea extends. On the Dogger Bank in the middle of the sea are stumps of trees with their roots still in the ground. Divers have brought up stone axes and mastodon bones, from the time when the North Sea was land. Off the isle of Heligoland, parallel rock walls 45 feet underwater have been discovered, constructed of black, white and red rocks. Pollen analysis of the sea bottom suggests that this sea, in its present shape, originated within "recent" times. The date of 1500 B.C. is often selected.

Can you please link me to where you found this information regarding the rocks being colored?

Thank you

Thanks for trying, Qoais.

To me - " I did not consider this particular one to be of world shaking importance" - is a lousy excuse: if it was this guy who posted about those walls, he would no doubt have saved the source of his info.

Reports about tree stumps you can now find everywhere on the net and in books, but it's only Spanuth who mentioned anything (west of Denmark, near Heligoland) about submerged walls.

I remember most if not all the sources where I got my info from, and I as you know, this thread in now like 34 pages long..

Believe me, I have a bit of a problem believing this Jonathan guy...

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Posted (edited)

I did a bit of Googling about this Jonathan Gray... well, whatever he cooked up, it's impressive because of volume, not because of quality.

He told you, Qoais, that he wasn't able to give you any source about those submerged walls. Well, I think he just did this: copy and quote from every fringe site he could dig up, every fringe book he read, quote fromthe Pravda and The Sun, and several of similar 'quality' newspapers.

He didn't research s***, he just copied and pasted whatever suited his fancy.

==========

103 pages here:

http://www.scribd.co...-the-Des-t-Ti-n

http://curezone.com/...n_s_Secrets.pdf

...but no sources... Too much of a bother, apparently.

=

http://www.world-mys...s.com/jgray.htm

=

Great, and here he quotes form the "Chronicle of Akakor", a wellknown hoax:

In the traditions of the Ugha Mongulala tribe of the western Amazon jungle, the South American continent was "still flat and soft like a lamb's back, the Great River still flowed on either side." But then came a cataclysm: "The Great River was rent by a new mountain range and now it flowed swiftly toward the East. Enormous forests grew on its banks In the West, where giant mountains had surged up, people froze in the bitter cold of the high altitudes." (Karl Brugger, The Chronicle of Akakor, 1977)

http://www.watchmanb...onathanGray.htm

--

Sorry, but all I want to know is where he got his quote about the submerged walls from. For the rest. I am not in the least interested in this guy. I think I will have to get me a copy of Spanuth's book, and read it all by myself.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Posted (edited)

I have mentioned the French writers Jean Deruelle and Sylvain Tristan many times now, but here's sort of a summary of deruelle's theory:

Deruelle's theory was simple but new to me : Atlanteans would have been the Megalithic (from the Greek 'huge stone') people from Western Europe - people belonging to a badly-known civilisation. Most Europeans have at least once seen or heard about the gigantic stones they once erected - Stonehenge and Avebury in England being famous examples, but hundreds of thousands of cromlechs and standing stones can be found throughout Europe and beyond. This civilisation thrived for nearly 4 millennia, roughly from 4800 BC to 1200 BC. Basing his work on those of a German author from the 1950's - Jürgen Spanüth, who claimed Atlantis was located in the North Sea - Deruelle spent much of his retirement time gathering clues supporting his thesis of a Northern Atlantis.

Among other things he noticed that right in the middle of the North Sea was a huge, 300 km-long submerged island now called the Dogger Bank. Remarkably, Deruelle's calculations showed him that the global rise of oceans level following the last Ice Age, combined with the implacable sinking of the undersea soil, implied that the Dogger Bank had been a real island during the Megalithic period! According to Deruelle the Megalithic people, who were skilful navigators, probably had their capital city on this island and subsequently extended their influence to Western Europe and the Mediterranean. Last but not least, this people having lived before the great Sumerian and Egyptian civilisations, it was likely to have helped these first great civilisations rise in the first place.

http://spcov.free.fr/site_nicoulaud/en/atlandide.php

Here Deruelle's theory in French (and watch the pics, the ones I already posted inthis thread):

http://doggerbank.org/index.html

This is an image by Deruelle, suggesting Dogger Island was still above sea level around 3000 BC: http://doggerbank.org/carte03.html

Like I said, all that was needed for that theory was to stretch in time to known date of the submergence of Dogger Isand.

Officially that date is around 5000 BC, but to have it as center/origin of the European Megalithic culture that date should be around 3000 BC.

To get to that date, Deruel not only suggested the scientists had been wrong, but also that the ancient inhabitants of Dogger Island built dikes to protect them from the rising sea.

Alas, no proof of dikes on the bottom of the North Sea have been found (and Spanuth's 'walls' were nothing but ancient sand banks) or even proof that Dogger Island stayed above the waters for long after 5000 BC.

But where is the scientific proof Doggerland/Dogger Island finally submerged around 5000 BC?

Well, it took me some time, but here it is (and first some really nice pics, and the first I saved to function as background for my dektop, heh) :

Doggerland_GeologicalSociety.jpg

It's from the cover of this book:

Holocene Land - Ocean Interaction and Environmental Change around the North Sea (2000)

According to the back cover (scroll down till the end of the manuscript) it's the situation in the North Sea around 7.7 ka BP, 5700 BC.

This is somewhat in contradiction with older pics I posted here (or this one is just more accurate); it appears still a lot of Doggerland was above sealevel around 5700 BC, while the similar pics I posted all say it was the situation around 8000 BC.

The Storegga Slide occurred at 6100 BC, and this would mean that even though the land got flushed, it was still much above sealevel for 500 years after.

But... according to radiocarbon data (in this document) of the Dogger Bank the most recent data pointing to an above sealevel situation are from 6140 +/- 50 years., not 5700 BC.

So either I didn't read the document well enough, or I didn't understand it well enough (I think it's the last option, lol).

I also copied some of the other images in the online book that show Doggerland/-island on later dates:

Doggerland_GeologicalSociety2.jpg

Doggerland_GeologicalSociety3.jpg

(man, I love maps !!)

Found something more about dating Doggerland/-island :

Modelling western North Sea palaeogeographies and tidal changes during the Holocene (2000)

Analysis of cores collected from Late Devensian (Weichselian) and Holocene sediments on the floor of the North Sea provides evidence of the transgression of freshwater environments during relative sea-level rise. Although many cores show truncated sequences, examples from the Dogger Bank, Well Bank and 5 km offshore of north Norfolk reveal transitional sequences and reliable indicators of past shoreline positions. Together with radiocarbon-dated sea-level index points collected from the Holocene sediments of the estuaries and coastal lowlands of eastern England these data enable the development and testing of models of the palaeogeographies of coastlines in the western North Sea and models of tidal range changes through the Holocene epoch. Geophysical models that incorporate ice-sheet reconstructions, earth rheology, eustasy, and glacio- and hydroisostasy provide predictions of sea-level relative to the present for the last 10 ka at 1-ka intervals. These predictions, added to a model of present-day bathymetry, produce palaeogeographic reconstructions for each time period. The palaeogeographic maps reveal the transgression of the North Sea continental shelf. Key stages include a western embayment off northeast England as early as 10 ka BP; the evolution of a large tidal embayment between eastern England and the Dogger Bank before 9 ka BP with connection to the English Channel prior to 8 ka BP; and Dogger Bank as an island at high tide by 7.5 ka BP and totally submerged by 6 ka BP. Analysis of core data shows that coastal and saltmarsh environments could adapt to rapid rates of sea-level rise and coastline retreat. After 6 ka BP the major changes in palaeogeography occurred inland of the present coast of eastern England. The palaeogeographic models provide the coastline positions and bathymetries for modelling tidal ranges at each 1-ka interval. A nested hierarchy of models, from the scale of the northeast Atlantic to the east coast of England, uses 26 tidal harmonics to reconstruct tidal regimes. Predictions consistently show tidal ranges smaller than present in the early Holocene, with only minor changes since 6 ka BP. Recalibration of previously available sea-level index points using the model results rather than present tidal-range parameters increases the difference between observations and predictions of relative sea-levels from the glacio-hydro-isostatic models and reinforces the need to search for better ice-sheet reconstructions.

http://sp.lyellcollection.org/cgi/content/abstract/166/1/299

So even this last date of the final and total submergence of Doggerland is 6 ka BP, or 4000 BC. Close, but no meat.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Because I once assumed that the name "Nehalennia" became a name for some sea goddess, but was originally the name of some now 'lost country' she represented, I asked a Finnish woman on my own site, what is "Land near ice and frost" in your language ( I asked her because the Doggerlanders must have been part of the Maglemosian culture, a culture of people speaking a Finno-Ugric language)?

She told me it was "maa lähellä halla ja jäätä". ['ja' is pronounced like English 'ya' or 'ia']

Sounds similar to the various spellings of Nehalennia, or "Neeltje Jans" as the name is preserved in my language. And - like I said - it were Romans in ancient Friesland who wrote it down and inscribed it on stone the way it sounded in their ears

But i think I made it a bit too difficult for myself: I could have simply asked her, "wat is 'land near ice' in your language?"

land near ice: maa lähellä jään ( >> 'j' is pronounced like 'y' in English 'ya' or 'i' in English 'ia' )

The ancient ancestors of the Frisians/Norwegians/Swedes/Danes may have been Doggerlanders who fled to southern Norway and Sweden, and to Denmark. This is even suggested on the Wiki page about Norway.

From the original name for that land that sunk, they only saved part: "Hella" or "Halja" (like San Franciso >> Frisco), and used it as a name for the North Sea, the sea that flooded their original homeland, their 'land near ice', maalähelläjään (Doggerland, as I have said many times in this thread, was nothing short of paradise 2000 years after the end of the ice age - think Gulf Stream and being low land - as compared with the surrounding countries that were still much covered in ice and barren tundra.)

Very much later the name of their ancient homeland still survived as the name for a sea goddess, "Nehalennia". And also for a very long time - well, part of the name - as the name for the sea that now covered their ancient homeland, the North Sea, or in old Frisian, Hel/Helja/Halja.

Today I watched again the BBC "Stone Age Atlantis" documentary about Doggerland.

Near the end of this doc a scientist tells us many neolithic stone axes were found on the socalled "Brown Banks", smack in the middle between southern Holland and England, and west of where all these much younger Nehalennia votice altars were found. The suggestion was that even long after Doggerland disappeared, people still remembered it, and offered to the sea what was then very precious to them: smoothly carved stone axes.

==-=-===-=-===

It has been recognized for a long time that Northern Norway was populated before the inland Scandinavia glacier melted. The inhabitants came from the West: England, the plains situated at the location of the present North Sea, and Germany. The archaeological findings of these areas have been classified as belonging to the Maglemose culture which now is considered to be largely similar to the Narva culture located to the East of the Baltic Sea. Thus it must have been the same population and probably also the same language. The immigrants were attracted to the Northern shores by abundant game for hunting and a chance of sea fishing. The White Sea cliff drawings of the later comb ceramic era show whalery in which large sea vessels (resembling the umiak leather boats of the Eskimos) were used, already aided by such developed tools as the harpoon and and an attached buoy which prevented the prey from diving. It is also known that the Basques practised whaling using small boats as late as the historic period.

The Finno-Ugrians who had conquered the North from the West had been separated from the Eastern inhabitation by the glacier and also by several centuries; consequently they were also genetically separated from the rest of the Finnish linguistic groups. Some indigenous genetic complexes were enriched while some more recent genetic effects received by their Southern tribal relatives were lacking. A reason like this may lie behind the genetic difference met with the Lapps.

kartta2.gif

http://victorian.fortunecity.com/christy/32/ak1e.html

http://pakana.150m.com/EKART1.HTM#10000

.

Edited by Abramelin

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I have said a couple of times in this thread that it contained enough material to write a book.

Well, someone else, a science fiction writer already did, and it's Stephen Baxter.

His book was published recently, June 2010 (did he read this thread?? damn !!) and it's called "Stone Spring".

What I like is that he made up a name for Doggerland, "Etxelur" which is Basque for "Homeland". So that means he assumes that it were people related to the present day Basques who inhabited Doggerland, while I assumed it were Finno-Ugric people (hence my name for that land, "Maalähelläjään", 'land near ice'). We both could be right if you check the map in my former post.

OK, I will post a couple of summaries to give you an idea what his book is about (and I hope you will notice that he talks about the building of dikes, or great wall, in his book.. where did he get that idea from...Deruelle or Tristan, perhaps??):

--

Stone Spring, by Stephen Baxter (Gollancz, £12.99)

In his more overtly science fictional works, Baxter again and again pitches struggling humanity against the vast natural forces at work in the universe. In this novel, set 10,000 years ago in the Mesolithic period, the Etxelur hunter-gatherer people face not only tsunami but the dawning realisation that their country is sinking into the ocean. Young orphan Ana embarks on a seemingly hopeless task: to persuade her people to build a great wall, hundreds of miles long, to keep out the rising tide. It is this wall, a symbolic as well as a physical monument to human endeavour, which will change the course of history. This first volume in the Northland series of alternate histories combines epic scope with impeccably researched detail.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2010/jul/03/science-fiction-review-choice

--

Product Description

8,000 years ago Europe was a very different place. England was linked to Holland by a massive swathe of land. Where the North Sea is now lay the landmass of Northland. And then came a period of global warming, a shifting of continents and, over a few short years, the sea rushed in and our history was set. But what if the sea had been kept at bay? Brythony is a young girl who lives in Northland. Like all her people she is a hunter gatherer, her simple tools fashioned from flint cutting edges lodged in wood and animal bone. When the sea first encroaches on her land her people simply move. Brythony moves further travelling to Asia. Where she sees mankind's first walled cities. And gets an idea. What if you could build a wall to keep the sea out? And so begins a colossal engineering project that will take decades, a wall that stretches for hundreds of miles, a wall that becomes an act of defiance, and containing the bones of the dead, an act of devotion. A wall that will change the geography of the world. And it's history. Stephen Baxter has become expert at embedding human stories into the grandest sweeps of history and the most mind-blowing of concepts. STONE SPRING begins a trilogy that will tell the story of a changed world. It begins in 8,000 BC with an idea and ends in 1500 in a world that never saw the Roman Empire, Christianity or Islam. It is an eye-opening look at what history could so easily have been and an inspiring tale of how we control our future.

About the Author

Stephen Baxter is the pre-eminent SF writer of his generation. Published around the world he has also won major awards in the UK, US, Germany, and Japan. Born in 1957 he has degrees from Cambridge and Southampton. He lives in Northumberland with his wife.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Stone-Spring-Gollancz-Stephen-Baxter/dp/0575089180

--

Stone Spring is prolific science fiction writer Stephen Baxter’s latest novel, and is set in the Mesolithic period of Earth’s history dealing with a very headstrong people that decides to face nature rather than back down. This intriguing prehistoric epic is the beginning of new trilogy, all set on a now disappeared land-mass and based around the same concept. Stone Spring is not without flaws, but to those interested in it’s material it will offer a compelling plot and the chance to explore what our world could have been like, 10,000 years ago.

-

Blurb:

Ana is fourteen. Her father is missing, her mother is dead. Ana herself has perhaps another twenty years of life left to her. But in that time she is destined to change the shape of our world.

Ana lives on the North coast of Doggerland, a vast and fertile plain that 10,000 years ago linked the British Isles to mainland Europe. Life is short for Ana’s people but they live in an Eden-like world teeming with wildlife, a world yet to feel the impact of man. But their world is changing. The ice has melted, the seas are rising and one fateful year a Tsunami sweeps inland and scatters Ana’s people. But if the people of distant Jericho could build a wall to keep the world out, surely Ana’s people could build a wall to keep the sea out?

-

This isn’t your usual speculative genre book. For a start, it’s difficult to peg Stone Spring down as speculative since it’s really more historical. But then it’s not the most faithful historical fiction out there. Let’s be fair though: it isn’t exactly unfaithful, because there really isn’t much known about the Mesolithic period, and what is known, Stephen Baxter has included in there. For the rest it’s a mix of educated guessing and imagination for the sake of the story - it is, after all, a novel. There is no denying, though, that the setting is an attractive one. Because it’s so far back in our past it is both unknown and familiar and Baxter makes us rediscover it fully by making the first section of the book one that spans a large area geographically. We, of course, still center on Etxelur, part of the landmass between Britain and Europe, but we also take a look at prehistoric North America, the European Continent, the ancient city of Jericho in the Middle-East and, later in the novel, part of Britain. The amount of detail Baxter puts into this story is appreciated, though sometimes it can seem like he gets too caught up in them and lets the story and the characters fade a bit.

The plot itself tends to be rather straight forward, the first part being the exception as there is some jumping around going on then. Also, as the novel progresses it skips ahead increasingly often, passing over years mostly for the sake of seeing the development of Etxelur’s technology. This is what I meant about the some elements fading. If you jump ahead, missing years of the characters’ lives it’s a lot harder to identify with the characters as they evolve massively in sometimes the space of only a chapter or two. On the other hand, what Stone Spring does really well is employ devices, both plot-wise and character-wise, to ask a variety of questions: whether it’s right to resist nature, how much of an impact man should have on his surrounding, etc.

Overall Stone Spring is somewhat of an uneven book, but even irregular, its a book I enjoyed and I would gladly recommend. Beware though, if you’re not a fan of historical fiction (or history in general) then Stone Spring won’t be much good for you. For those that are interested and do read this then you can expect the sequel, Bronze Summer, around mid-2011, while the final book in the trilogy, entitled Iron Winter, is set for mid-2012. And of course, there are all the other novels Stephen Baxter’s written, if you wish to give those a try too.

http://www.lecbookreviews.com/2010/07/stone-spring-by-stephen-baxter.html

--

Publication Date: June 2010

8,000 years ago Europe was a very different place. England was linked to Holland by a massive swathe of land. The landmass of Northland lay where the North Sea is now. And then came a period of global warming, a shifting of continents and, over a few short years, the sea rushed in and our history was set.

But what if the sea had been kept at bay? Brythony is a young girl who lives in Northland. Like all her people she is a hunter gatherer, her simple tools fashioned from flint cutting edges lodged in wood and animal bone. When the sea first encroaches on her land her people simply move. Brythony moves further travelling to Asia. Where she sees mankind's first walled cities, and gets an idea. What if you could build a wall to keep the sea out?

And so begins a colossal engineering project that will take decades, a wall that stretches for hundreds of miles, a wall that becomes an act of defiance, and containing the bones of the dead, an act of devotion. A wall that will change the geography of the world. And it's history.

Stephen Baxter has had a long writing career and is an old hand at creating believable worlds (science fiction) and re-creating long-forgotten times (ancient epics). In Stone Spring he shakes us up with writing that is deeply evocative and gritty, carrying us on the tide of a story that could so easily have happened, creating an alternative world and history to what we know today.

The story starts small and personal, singling out one girl, as she reaches womanhood. Gradually it becomes bigger, wider, working in fantastical mythology and other ‘scatterlings’ of human existence. We come to know these Mesolithic humans well and can relate to the harsh reality of their world. The cold, the hunger, the fear of the elements, the various superstitions they cling to.

The author keeps us very close to the humans throughout the story, shifting his focus and ours, occasionally to make us aware of the chaotic environment they find themselves in. The shifting weather, the elements the people revere and worship and depend on is treacherous and we very soon realise that it is going to turn on them in a truly damaging way.

When a tsunami hits, devastating the area, sweeping homes away, realisation hits that slowly the land they have relied on all their lives, is sinking beneath the waves.

A young girl, one of the scatterlings, decides to rise above the situation she is in and to try and save her tribe from utter destruction, by building a wall that will stand against the oncoming flood.

From here on, we are in unknown territory – an alternate history that is so plausible it gives you an uncomfortable itch behind the shoulder blades. The author effortlessly drags us with him through the narrative, showing us petty rivalries, family members turning against each other, love and hate as tumultuous as the harsh and brutal environment he has set Stone Spring in.

If there is one thing Stephen Baxter can do well it is world building and creating intense characters who, though separated through thousands of years, as a reader you can identify with. The forward momentum in the novel is dizzying and sometimes you feel yourself wishing that things would slow down, just a bit. But ultimately, it’s a great piece of fiction that reads quickly and exhaustingly, regardless of its decent size.

Stone Spring is a strong, thought provoking novel written by an author very much at the top of his game. Stone Spring, published by Gollancz, is out now.

http://www.syfy.co.uk/blog/stone-spring-stephen-baxter-review

==

Baxter also added an extra to this book on his own website:

Ripples

This short fiction, related to my novel Stone Spring is exclusive to this website.

http://www.stephen-baxter.com/stories.html#ripples

--

Some extra links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_Spring

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Baxter#Northland_trilogy

http://www.zone-sf.com/wordworks/stspsbax.html

http://punkadiddle.blogspot.com/2010/04/stephen-baxter-stone-spring-2010.html

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About those dikes (or great wall)... it would not be too farfteched to assume Baxter got that idea from Jean Deruelle (and later Sylvain Tristan):

Doggerlande2.jpg

Deruelle thought Doggerland was above sea level for much longer (at least until 3000 BC) because it was protected by many dikes, and that it was the centre and origin of the Megalithic culture of western Europe.

No proof of any dikes there have ever been found, btw.

There have also been some who envisioned the Dogger Bank to be the location for a modern 'sea city':

sea-city-2.GIF

http://www.aiai.ed.ac.uk/~bat/sea-city.html

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Scandinavia settled by continental Europeans

A substantial proportion of the world's water was tied up in the continental glaciers during the Ice Age. As the sea level was much lower than it is today, expansive tracts of land which now lie underwater were once the site of coastal settlements. The North Sea Continent between England and Denmark is a case in point: underwater finds prove that this region was the site of human settlements in the late stages of the Ice Age.

Norwegian archaeologists believe that the first pioneering settlers to leave the North Sea Continent were sea-fishing communities which advanced rapidly along the Norwegian coastline to Finnmark and the Rybachy Peninsula around 9000 BC at the latest. Many archaeologists formerly believed that the earliest settlers on the Finnmark coastline, who represented the Komsa culture, migrated there from Finland, east Europe or Siberia. More recent archaeological evidence does not support this theory, however.

The pioneers who settled on the coast of Norway appear to have gradually advanced inland toward north Sweden, and presumably also to the northernmost reaches of Finnish Lapland. Around 6000 BC, a second wave of migrants from Germany and Denmark worked northward via Sweden eventually, too, reaching northern Lapland. The Norwegian coastline remained populated by its founding settlers, but the founding population of north Scandinavia was a melting pot of two different peoples. Does the fact that the "Sami motif" confines itself to a particular region of nrothern Scandinavia then suggest that the mutation occurred not before, but after, northern Scandinavia became populated?

Grave findings have shown that late Palaeolithic settlers in central Europe and their Mesolithic descendants in the Scandinavian Peninsula were Europoids, who had compartively large teeth - a seemingly comical detail, but nevertheless an important factor in identifying these populations. Although it is very unlikely that the language of these settlers will ever be identified, I cannot see any grounds for the theory that either of these groups spoke Proto-Uralic.

http://sydaby.eget.net/swe/jp_finns.htm

========

Another (e)book about fiction concerning Dogger Island (see former posts):

http://forums.readitswapit.co.uk/forums/p/25445/272873.aspx

Cliff Dreamers by Jacqui Wood

Author: Jacqui Wood

This is a self-published book by Jacqui Wood, available from Lulu Publishing as an e-book or in paperback. I believe this is Jacqui's first fiction offering, having already written "Prehistoric Cooking". Jacqui Wood is an archaeologist, so it is not surprising to find the book set in a historical Europe.

I do have a few quibbles with the self-publishing aspect of this book, which I will get out of the way first. It is quite obvious that there was a lack of general editing as spelling errors can be found on nearly every other page; grammar is appalling and the tense can change several times within the same paragraph; and the narration also jumps from first to third and, most alarmingly in one paragraph to second, where the reader is addressed by the main character. I would dearly love to see a publishing hosue pick up this book just to sort out these technical quibbles. So, that's the critical part of this review over.

I had a wonderful time with this book. Not only was I drawn in by the turbulent life of its main character, Mia, but I learned quite a bit about Europe 6,000 years ago as the author effortlessly wove her knowledge of the period into the book. The story centres around an eleven year old girl, Mia, who lives on an island between Scanland (Norway) and Britland (Britain) which is fast disappearing into the sea.

Cliff Dreamers starts with Mia being chosen by the island's Shaman to be his priestess, an honour for most girls on Dogga Island, but not for Mia, who views this role as nothing more than slavery. Mia sits on her sand cliffs and wistfully watches the traders come in the their log boats and wishes she could travel far and wide with them. This soon becomes a reality when a fellow islander, Borg, discovers the Shaman's plans for Mia, who is not yet "of age".

Cliff Dreamers takes us along with Mia on her first ventures away from Dogger Island, and the various tribes she encounters with Kemit (the captain of the log boat in which she escapes), his crew and Borg. As the book progresses, we go back and forth from Mia's life on Dogga Island to her life at sea, trying to escape those who pursue her for her unusual magical powers.

The author is gifted when it comes to describing the various tribal settlements of neolithic times and I couldn't help but be drawn into Mia's world. I will be purchasing the sequel, Journey Through the Inland Sea, as soon as my finances allow. I will also be hoping that a publisher will pick up these books. I suspect the books will have a broad appeal because of the folding of history, archaeology, fantasy, magic and a thriller into one book makes them unique reading.

==

http://www.archaeologyonline.org/Jacqui%20-%20Papers.html

http://www.podfeed.net/podcast/Cliff+Dreamers/9698

http://www.archaeologyonline.org/Jacqui%20-%20Biography.html

http://bwitch.wordpress.com/2008/03/13/cliff-dreamers-update/

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Niflheim...

Puzzler and I have mentioned it in a couple of our favorite threads.

Niflheim, the Norse/Nordic place of Mists, the place were those who didn't die in battle went to.

A place ruled by a goddess called 'Hell".

"Hel" or Halla/Halja and so on was the name the ancient Frisians gave to the North Sea.

Those who followed this thread know I tried out my meager knowledge of linguistics, and know that I asked a Finnish woman once what "land near ice" would be in her language. It was maalähelläjään, a name quite close to Nehallenia, an ancient Dutch/Frisian sea-goddess.

Whattt? Quite close, you say? Yes, but only if the original name of this goddess is based on the pre-Indo-European name of the sea she was supposed to rule, "Hell".... My theory was that the ancestors of the Europeans (especially the Scandinavians) who came from an area near the Black Sea adopted the myths the pre-Indo Europeans they met in Europe told them about.

I have mentioned in this thread ancient north European (German and Dutch) 'pilgrimage Roads to Hell".

-

Once again ( from an old post here):

The ancient ancestors of the Frisians may have been Doggerlanders who fled to southern Norway and Sweden, and to Denmark (that is the scientific view, based on archeological finds)..

From the original name for that land that sunk, they only saved a part: "Hella" or "Halja" (like San Franciso >> Frisco), and used it as a name for the North Sea, the sea that flooded their original homeland, their 'land near ice', maalähelläjään (Doggerland, as I have said many times in the thread with that name, was nothing short of paradise 2000 years after the end of the ice age - think Gulf Stream and being low land - as compared with the surrounding countries that were still much covered in ice and barren tundra.

Very much later the name of their ancient homeland still survived as the name for a sea goddess, "Nehallennia". And also for a very long time - well, part of the name - as the name for the sea that now covered their ancient homeland, the North Sea, "Hell"/"Helja/Halja".

-

These days I found out that Niflheim was a mythical hell-like area protected by walls and gates.

And I have told you about a couple of French writers who assume that Dogger Island survived much longer than science thinks it did (according to science Dogger Island finally submerged at 6145 BC, according to these guys it survived untill 3000 BC), because of 'dikes'.

-

HEL -Goddess of death. Daughter of Loki. Ruler of Niflheim, the land of mists. Heroic souls go to Valhalla. Those who die of disease or old age come to Niflheim. Surrounded by high walls and strong gates, Niflheim is impregnable; not even Balder could return from there without Hel’s permission.

http://esoterictexts03.tripod.com/Pagan.goddesesgodsdemonsminions.htm

-

The mists...

The mists were probably created by a cold northern branch of the Gulf Stream (think icy cold melt water from the glaciers covering the Scottish Highlands and Norway entering this branch in the northern part of the North Sea) meeting the southern warmer branch of the Gulf Stream (through the newly formed Channel) at Dogger Island. Cold and warm sea currents meeting at the center of the North Sea: Dogger Island.

I am not a meteorologist, but I assume those currents could create a lot of mist.... around that particular island.

An island that was whiped from the plate by a catastrophic flood caused by the Storegga Slide.

-

I admitt I am a bit 'off'' now, but nevertheless, I would like someone with more knowledge of meteorology and ancient Nordic myths to give me/us his/her view on this.

-

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To make you get my idea:

DoggerIsland_Niflheim.jpg

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I have often wondered - and I am still wondering - why not many if any people care to think about that submerged land.

At it's beginning it was much larger than present day Britain, and after a couple of thousand years it shrank to the size of present day Ireland.

I am quite sure there were no flying saucers there, and no great temples, or magic crystals.

But it was a real large area of land that got submerged, 6145 BC at the latest, and 3000 BC to some others.

But... alas... inhabited by 'simple' hunter-gatherers, and not bug-eyed aliens who came from Zeta Ridiculi or a never discovered rogue planet called 'Nibiru'.

That sucks, eh?

I gues it does.

My point is this: there were many large stretches of land that got submerged after the end of the last ice age; Sundaland, Doggerland, the Persian Gulf, and the Great lakes of northern America.

Nowhere on the internet did I find anything that said that these submerged areas - "Atlantisses" to many - were inhabited by some superior civilization.

Cayce, Blavatsky, Churchward, and other 'great prophets' just talked from their rear end when they were talking about "Atlantis" and "Mu/Lemuria".

Don't believe these frauds, please, they were just out to get the attention they needed to feel happy.

I know, from personal experience, how easy it is to cook up a fantasy that will thrill believers, and will spread around the internet like wild-fire.

Mea Culpa.

And when you admit it was nothing but a lie, no believer is willing to accept it, however much you trie to tell them you just made it up.

I guess you will understand NOW why I don't like 'religion'........

If I want to, I can make you believe anything... just by using the right words.

And I did, and I am sorry about that.

+++

EDIT:

And I am quite sure I will regret what I said here, next morning, when I am sobered up.

Edited by Abramelin

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I will bump this thread until I get just ONE answer.

There....

LOL.

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I think I'm down for this Abe, sounds logical and sensible.

I hope some others join in too.

Recall that fringe theory that Walhallagaren was Hades. I think I can actually find Pluto (ancient Roman Hades) as being reverred in the area too, I recall a lead to it earlier. I will read more of this thread and then comment more then and try and stay on track here.

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I have often wondered - and I am still wondering - why not many if any people care to think about that submerged land.

At it's beginning it was much larger than present day Britain, and after a couple of thousand years it shrank to the size of present day Ireland.

I am quite sure there were no flying saucers there, and no great temples, or magic crystals.

But it was a real large area of land that got submerged, 6145 BC at the latest, and 3000 BC to some others.

But... alas... inhabited by 'simple' hunter-gatherers, and not bug-eyed aliens who came from Zeta Ridiculi or a never discovered rogue planet called 'Nibiru'.

That sucks, eh?

I gues it does.

My point is this: there were many large stretches of land that got submerged after the end of the last ice age; Sundaland, Doggerland, the Persian Gulf, and the Great lakes of northern America.

Nowhere on the internet did I find anything that said that these submerged areas - "Atlantisses" to many - were inhabited by some superior civilization.

Cayce, Blavatsky, Churchward, and other 'great prophets' just talked from their rear end when they were talking about "Atlantis" and "Mu/Lemuria".

Don't believe these frauds, please, they were just out to get the attention they needed to feel happy.

I know, from personal experience, how easy it is to cook up a fantasy that will thrill believers, and will spread around the internet like wild-fire.

Mea Culpa.

And when you admit it was nothing but a lie, no believer is willing to accept it, however much you trie to tell them you just made it up.

I guess you will understand NOW why I don't like 'religion'........

If I want to, I can make you believe anything... just by using the right words.

And I did, and I am sorry about that.

+++

EDIT:

And I am quite sure I will regret what I said here, next morning, when I am sobered up.

Abe - Just a humbly submitted note - For practical purposes, the basins of the Great Lakes are the product of Pleistocene glacial "gouging" and related processes. The present basins/flowages are the result of a long and complex series of geomorphological events. To characterize them as a "sunken land" would not be an accurate assessment, particularly in regards to the current understandings regarding H.s.s.

And yes, in the morning you will recognize this. Carry on.

.

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I have often wondered - and I am still wondering - why not many if any people care to think about that submerged land.

At it's beginning it was much larger than present day Britain, and after a couple of thousand years it shrank to the size of present day Ireland.

I am quite sure there were no flying saucers there, and no great temples, or magic crystals.

But it was a real large area of land that got submerged, 6145 BC at the latest, and 3000 BC to some others.

But... alas... inhabited by 'simple' hunter-gatherers, and not bug-eyed aliens who came from Zeta Ridiculi or a never discovered rogue planet called 'Nibiru'.

That sucks, eh?

I gues it does.

My point is this: there were many large stretches of land that got submerged after the end of the last ice age; Sundaland, Doggerland, the Persian Gulf, and the Great lakes of northern America.

Nowhere on the internet did I find anything that said that these submerged areas - "Atlantisses" to many - were inhabited by some superior civilization.

Cayce, Blavatsky, Churchward, and other 'great prophets' just talked from their rear end when they were talking about "Atlantis" and "Mu/Lemuria".

Don't believe these frauds, please, they were just out to get the attention they needed to feel happy.

I know, from personal experience, how easy it is to cook up a fantasy that will thrill believers, and will spread around the internet like wild-fire.

Mea Culpa.

And when you admit it was nothing but a lie, no believer is willing to accept it, however much you trie to tell them you just made it up.

I guess you will understand NOW why I don't like 'religion'........

If I want to, I can make you believe anything... just by using the right words.

And I did, and I am sorry about that.

+++

EDIT:

And I am quite sure I will regret what I said here, next morning, when I am sobered up.

All praise to Abramelin, praise the crow.

I have found this a very interesting and enlightening piece of work. I wish their was more to add and that I could add to it. However I think that will be for future generations if indeed we can keep our fingers of the trigger. Also it's not generally within my interest area but I think you may have unearthed the reason why I and many others haven't contributed to the thread.

The answer if I may be so bold is that it's not very exciting. For the most part we are dreamers and we all like to speculate on what might be. "What would you do if you won the Euro Lottery?" Life today is filled with up to the minute news from every corner of the world which makes everything seem so frantic, we can jump in a car and travel hundreds of miles without much effort at all. The same can be applied to aviation. People actually cruise the oceans in huge hotels and for a while many are amused and amazed by the ease at which it is achieved. You only have to look on the net to see the amount of interest from the younger generation to join fantasy sites and create their own persona. Women in particular are drawn to unction's to stop their skin ageing and so on and on and on add infinitum.

Now many keep an eye on space exploration which boosts speculative interest to greater and greater heights. In truth it's hard for us to keep our feet on the ground and at the same time keep an open mind.

So on the one hand we have a growing surge of people moving away from everyday mundane life and wrapping themselves up in make believe. Whilst on the other you have those trying to keep a modicum of sensible thinking prevailing. Those are my thoughts for what they are worth.

Edited by Flashbangwollap

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Abe - Just a humbly submitted note - For practical purposes, the basins of the Great Lakes are the product of Pleistocene glacial "gouging" and related processes. The present basins/flowages are the result of a long and complex series of geomorphological events. To characterize them as a "sunken land" would not be an accurate assessment, particularly in regards to the current understandings regarding H.s.s.

And yes, in the morning you will recognize this. Carry on.

.

Maybe Abe just meant if reference to it being an area affected by deluge or flooding...

Glacial lake outburst floods in North America

In North America, during glacial maximum, there were no Great Lakes as we know them, but "proglacial" (ice-frontage) lakes formed and shifted. They lay in the areas of the modern lakes, but their drainage sometimes passed south, into the Mississippi system, sometimes into the Arctic, or east into the Atlantic. The most famous of these proglacial lakes was Lake Agassiz. A series of floods, as ice-dam configurations failed (type 4) created a series of great floods from Lake Agassiz, resulting in massive pulses of freshwater added to the world's oceans.

The Missoula Floods of Washington state were also caused by breaking ice dams, resulting in the Channeled Scablands.

Lake Bonneville burst catastrophically due to its water overflowing and washing away a sill composed of two opposing alluvial fans which had blocked a gorge.

The last of the North American proglacial lakes, north of the present Great Lakes, has been designated Glacial Lake Ojibway by geologists. It reached its largest volume around 8,500 years ago, when joined with Lake Agassiz. But its outlet was blocked by the great wall of the glaciers and it drained by tributaries, into the Ottawa and St. Lawrence Rivers far to the south. About 8,300 to 7,700 years ago, the melting ice dam over Hudson Bay's southernmost extension narrowed to the point where pressure and its buoyancy lifted it free, and the ice-dam failed catastrophically. Lake Ojibway's beach terraces show that it was 250 m above sea level. The volume of Lake Ojibway is commonly estimated to have been about 163,000 cubic kilometres, more than enough water to cover a flattened-out Antarctica with a sheet of water 10 m deep. That volume was added to the world's oceans in a matter of months.

The detailed timing and rates of change after the onset of melting of the great ice-sheets are subjects of continuing study.

There is also a strong possibility that a global climatic change in recent geological time brought about some large deluge. Evidence is mounting from ice-cores in Greenland that the switch from a glacial to an inter-glacial period can occur over just a few months, rather than over the centuries that earlier research suggested.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deluge_(prehistoric)#English_Channel_.28Strait_of_Dover.29:_Doggerland_and_the_channel_flood

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Maybe Abe just meant if reference to it being an area affected by deluge or flooding...

Glacial lake outburst floods in North America

In North America, during glacial maximum, there were no Great Lakes as we know them, but "proglacial" (ice-frontage) lakes formed and shifted. They lay in the areas of the modern lakes, but their drainage sometimes passed south, into the Mississippi system, sometimes into the Arctic, or east into the Atlantic. The most famous of these proglacial lakes was Lake Agassiz. A series of floods, as ice-dam configurations failed (type 4) created a series of great floods from Lake Agassiz, resulting in massive pulses of freshwater added to the world's oceans.

The Missoula Floods of Washington state were also caused by breaking ice dams, resulting in the Channeled Scablands.

Lake Bonneville burst catastrophically due to its water overflowing and washing away a sill composed of two opposing alluvial fans which had blocked a gorge.

The last of the North American proglacial lakes, north of the present Great Lakes, has been designated Glacial Lake Ojibway by geologists. It reached its largest volume around 8,500 years ago, when joined with Lake Agassiz. But its outlet was blocked by the great wall of the glaciers and it drained by tributaries, into the Ottawa and St. Lawrence Rivers far to the south. About 8,300 to 7,700 years ago, the melting ice dam over Hudson Bay's southernmost extension narrowed to the point where pressure and its buoyancy lifted it free, and the ice-dam failed catastrophically. Lake Ojibway's beach terraces show that it was 250 m above sea level. The volume of Lake Ojibway is commonly estimated to have been about 163,000 cubic kilometres, more than enough water to cover a flattened-out Antarctica with a sheet of water 10 m deep. That volume was added to the world's oceans in a matter of months.

The detailed timing and rates of change after the onset of melting of the great ice-sheets are subjects of continuing study.

There is also a strong possibility that a global climatic change in recent geological time brought about some large deluge. Evidence is mounting from ice-cores in Greenland that the switch from a glacial to an inter-glacial period can occur over just a few months, rather than over the centuries that earlier research suggested.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deluge_(prehistoric)#English_Channel_.28Strait_of_Dover.29:_Doggerland_and_the_channel_flood

Agreed but I was only pointing out a few reasons why others don't appear so interested.

I have skimmed your additions for now Puzz and it, once again, is interesting enough to divert my attention.

I have probably learnt more coming to UM past and present than I have from all other sources.

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I think I'm down for this Abe, sounds logical and sensible.

I hope some others join in too.

Recall that fringe theory that Walhallagaren was Hades. I think I can actually find Pluto (ancient Roman Hades) as being reverred in the area too, I recall a lead to it earlier. I will read more of this thread and then comment more then and try and stay on track here.

Yes, Hades: I have mentioned Hades in this thread too.

And the river Styx which coiled 9 tims around Hades.. like a guarding snake. That made me think of that snake that nibbled at the roots of Yggdrasil, a snake that lived in a sacred well on/in Niflheim (and could that be the big lake on Doggerland, a lake formed by the Silverpit Crater - which isn't a crater after all - ??). After England finally got separated from mainland Europe the new southern currents nibbled at the new coasts of the North Sea, currents that coiled around Dogger Island, the remaining part of Doggerland after the Storegga Slide...

Hades, another Underworld, and associated with mists.

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Agreed but I was only pointing out a few reasons why others don't appear so interested.

I have skimmed your additions for now Puzz and it, once again, is interesting enough to divert my attention.

I have probably learnt more coming to UM past and present than I have from all other sources.

Cool.

My answer was directed at Swede.

I agree that it's because it seems a bit dull that no one is getting into it. But I think the idea certainly has merit and it was land that is now submerged so people must have left it and probably knew the story of it sinking. The connection to Niflheim is imo very strong.

Another fringe theory mentions Walcheren as the seat of Hades, described by Homer.

Already in Roman days, the island was a point of departure for ships going to Britain and it had a temple of the goddess Nehalennia who was popular with those who wished to brave the waters of the North Sea.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walcheren

Here we have Nehallenia,(Nyhellenia) at Walcheren (sometimes called Walhallagaren) which has been described in at least one theory as being the seat of Hades.

Edited by The Puzzler

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Abe - Just a humbly submitted note - For practical purposes, the basins of the Great Lakes are the product of Pleistocene glacial "gouging" and related processes. The present basins/flowages are the result of a long and complex series of geomorphological events. To characterize them as a "sunken land" would not be an accurate assessment, particularly in regards to the current understandings regarding H.s.s.

And yes, in the morning you will recognize this. Carry on.

.

Of course you are right, Swede. And Puzz is also indeed right with what she thought I meant.

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