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Sceptical believer

Doggerland

863 posts in this topic

I am dumb, I am ignorant, I am drunk, I am heavy-handed, I am rude, and so on.

But people, please believe me, I check my sources.

All I do is try out possible scenarios.

Within scientific bounds.

And all I get is some guy - "Hey Cormac" - quoting only ONE scientist who contradicts what I suggested could have happened.

Great.

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Now, I really want a REAL linguist (= NOT someone who knows how to Google and pretend to be knowledgabe) how they can determine language boundaries in time that accuractly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maglemosian_culture

.

Good question.

Were the inhabitants of Europe Finno-Urgit speakers prior to an IE arrival....is that what you are trying to determine (as well as other things)?

I was reading up some more and a bit after the Maglemosian culture is the Ertebolle culture and found they seem quite developed, just of interest:

The Ertebølle culture (ca 5300 BC-3950 BC) (Danish pronunciation: [ˈæɐdəˌbølə]) is the name of a hunter-gatherer and fisher, pottery-making culture dating to the end of the Mesolithic period. The culture was concentrated in Southern Scandinavia, but genetically linked to strongly related cultures in Northern Germany and the Northern Netherlands. It is named after the type site, a location in the small village of Ertebølle on Limfjorden in Danish Jutland.

The blubber lamp was molded from a single piece of clay. The use of such lamps suggests some household activity in the huts after dark.

The flintstone industry evolved a high and unified standard with small and flake axes, long lithic flakes (knives) and arrow heads. However, tools of many materials were in use: wood prongs and points, antler parts, carved bone tools.

[edit] Art

Paddles from Tybrind Vig show traces of highly developed and artistic woodcarving. This is an example of the embellishment of functional pieces. The population also polished and engraved non-functional or not obviously functional pieces of bone or antler. Motifs were predominantly geometric with some anthropomorphic or zoomorphic forms. Also in evidence (for example, at Fanø) are polished amber representations of animals, such as birds, boars, and bears. Jewelry was made of animal teeth or decorative shells. To what extent any of these pieces were symbolic of wealth and status is not clear.

[edit] Funerary customs

Cemeteries, such as the ones at Vedbæk and Skateholm, give a "sedentary" character to the settlements. Red ochre and deer antlers were placed in some graves, but not others. Some social distinctions may therefore have been made. There was some appreciation of sexual dimorphism: the women wore necklaces and belts of animal teeth and shells. No special body position was used. Both burial and cremation were practiced. At Møllegabet, an individual was buried in a dugout, which some see as the beginning of Scandinavian boat burials.

Skateholm contained also a dog cemetery. Dog graves were prepared and gifted the same as human, with ochre, antler, and grave goods. In either history or prehistory the dog is an invaluable animal and is often treated as one of us.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erteb%C3%B8lle_culture

Edited by The Puzzler

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Good question.

Were the inhabitants of Europe Finno-Urgit speakers prior to an IE arrival....is that what you are trying to determine (as well as other things)?

I was reading up some more and a bit after the Maglemosian culture is the Ertebolle culture and found they seem quite developed, just of interest:

The Ertebølle culture (ca 5300 BC-3950 BC) (Danish pronunciation: [ˈæɐdəˌbølə]) is the name of a hunter-gatherer and fisher, pottery-making culture dating to the end of the Mesolithic period. The culture was concentrated in Southern Scandinavia, but genetically linked to strongly related cultures in Northern Germany and the Northern Netherlands. It is named after the type site, a location in the small village of Ertebølle on Limfjorden in Danish Jutland.

The blubber lamp was molded from a single piece of clay. The use of such lamps suggests some household activity in the huts after dark.

The flintstone industry evolved a high and unified standard with small and flake axes, long lithic flakes (knives) and arrow heads. However, tools of many materials were in use: wood prongs and points, antler parts, carved bone tools.

[edit] Art

Paddles from Tybrind Vig show traces of highly developed and artistic woodcarving. This is an example of the embellishment of functional pieces. The population also polished and engraved non-functional or not obviously functional pieces of bone or antler. Motifs were predominantly geometric with some anthropomorphic or zoomorphic forms. Also in evidence (for example, at Fanø) are polished amber representations of animals, such as birds, boars, and bears. Jewelry was made of animal teeth or decorative shells. To what extent any of these pieces were symbolic of wealth and status is not clear.

[edit] Funerary customs

Cemeteries, such as the ones at Vedbæk and Skateholm, give a "sedentary" character to the settlements. Red ochre and deer antlers were placed in some graves, but not others. Some social distinctions may therefore have been made. There was some appreciation of sexual dimorphism: the women wore necklaces and belts of animal teeth and shells. No special body position was used. Both burial and cremation were practiced. At Møllegabet, an individual was buried in a dugout, which some see as the beginning of Scandinavian boat burials.

Skateholm contained also a dog cemetery. Dog graves were prepared and gifted the same as human, with ochre, antler, and grave goods. In either history or prehistory the dog is an invaluable animal and is often treated as one of us.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erteb%C3%B8lle_culture

It has been suggested the people living in this area - the Maglemosian culture - spoke some form of Proto-Finno-Ugric, yes. Not a form of proto-Basque, but proto-Finno-Ugric. The real Finno Ugric birth-ground may be located in North Western Russia, but this language group didnt just drop out of the sky. The people living on the coasts of the ice lakes that formed after the end of the last ice age must have been in contact; sailing is a lot more easier than travelling by land, and so people from ancient England could have been in regular contact with people living in North Western Russia.

And the Ertebølle culture is out of this question because they came after, and were/became influenced/mixed by/with the Balkan people who migrated to their area, and thus giving rise what we now know as proto-IE.

I do realize some here will think I change my mind every other day - and I don't- , lol, but that is just because I don't get a clear picture of how these languages developed.

Genetics and linguistics are not compatiblle scientific disciplines, or so it seems.

Pushing forward the ideas of just one scientist won't help much.

I think we will have to await for genetic evidence gathered from bones dragged up from the North Sea to get a more clear picture of what happened.

That is MY idea...

Being skeptic is not easy: you will have to doubt the words of believers and non-believers, scientists and laymen, crackpots and sane people, and so on.

Everyone wants to have a say, and we will have to sift through all the 'garbage' we encounter.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Everyone wants to have a say, and we will have to sift through all the 'garbage' we encounter.

.

And being drunk when you are at it doesn't help much too, lol.

But it sure helps when you want to vent some crazy idea, an idea that you would normally never allow to pass your tongue.

I am not advocatinng the use of liquor on this all-age site.

To the young ones I say: you can do a lot better than what I do.

And it took me about 45 minutes to post these few lines..

------------

Despite me whining again about my little problem, I still appreciate any contributions by creative minds.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Genetics and linguistics are not compatiblle scientific disciplines, or so it seems.

A person or persons can change the language they speak, obviously though they can't change their genes.

Pushing forward the ideas of just one scientist won't help much.

Promoting an artist who dabbles in language/linguistics in no way impeaches, nor supercedes, the credibility of a qualified expert in the field. 'Nuff said.

I think we will have to await for genetic evidence gathered from bones dragged up from the North Sea to get a more clear picture of what happened.

I'd like to see that too. It would likely answer, at least in part, the question of genetics. However, unless some form of recognizable writing is found as well, it can never answer the question of what language/language family was spoken.

cormac

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A person or persons can change the language they speak, obviously though they can't change their genes.

Promoting an artist who dabbles in language/linguistics in no way impeaches, nor supercedes, the credibility of a qualified expert in the field. 'Nuff said.

I'd like to see that too. It would likely answer, at least in part, the question of genetics. However, unless some form of recognizable writing is found as well, it can never answer the question of what language/language family was spoken.

cormac

"Promoting an artist who dabbles in language/linguistics in no way impeaches, nor supercedes, the credibility of a qualified expert in the field. 'Nuff said."

I was not 'promoting', I was just offering a view. The guy may have no credentials, but he is not talking from his rear end either. He may be wrong, but I don't think he is stupid or ignorant.

For the rest of what you said, I agree. Like I did long before, btw.

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Does any of you know how old the copper plates - see next quote - found in the sea near Heligoland really are?

From: Heligoland, Past and Present - by Alex Ritsema (2007)

"In the 1970s Heligoland's civil engineer Hans Stühmer - the expert in the island's geology until today - was diving close to South Harbour, to the southeast of the Oberland and made an astonishing discovery at a depht between 8 and 10 meters: a huge number of artificial copper plates, more or less circular with diameters up to about 100 centimeters!

Of course, Stühmer and others tried to explain this unexpected discovery. Could the plates be the remains of a shipwreck or have been thrown overboard from some ship in trouble? This explanation was very unlikely, especially because of the extremely high number of plates. Moreover, the copper happened to be polluted with Heligoland sandstone, indicating that the plates might have been made on the Oberland. Almost certainly, the plates had been manufactured close to the spot where they were found, indicating that there was once a part of the Oberland in what is now water with a depth of 8 to 10 meters!

Could the loss have been the result of an ordinary storm flood? This was not very likely. because in that case the survivors would probably have tried to salvage some of the valuable plates. However, so many plates lay so close to each other that we almost have to conclude that there were no survivors. The most likely - and very spectacular - explanation is that the copper mining stopped suddenly as a result of some catastrophic loss of a large part of the south of the Oberland. The catastrophe must have been caused by sudden movements of the salt and gypsum layers underneath Heligoland. This catastrophe must have led to a tsunami-like wave in the North Sea; many of its shores must have been damaged to a larger degree than any ordinary storm flood has ever done.

How old are the copper plates? In the 1970s researchers measured radioactivity from organic material on the plates and concluded that they had been made between about 1140 and 1340 AD. This was a surprising result, because contemporary chronicles neither mention copper mining on Heligoland nor a catastrophe resembling a tsunami. Later researchers made more accurate measurements of the radioactivity and so we know that the plates must have been made many centuries earlier, almost certainly before the people around the North Sea could write, which could explain the lack of written evidence of a tsunami. Of course, the origin of the copper plates is still mysterious and hopefully we wil find out more in the nearby future."

Wouldn't it be nice if it was the tsunami caused by the Storegga Slide at 6145 BC? Not very likely, but who knows. If these copper plates appear to be like 4000-3000 years old, I think some people in another thread here will be very happy (OLB)...

Some general info about Heligoland:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heligoland

.

Edited by Abramelin

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I forgot to add a picture of those copper discs:

Copperdisc.jpg

Edited by Abramelin

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"Does any of you know how old the copper plates - see next quote - found in the sea near Heligoland really are?"

No one, eh? Maybe I should ask a rectum talker, and get an answer my 5 years old niece could fabricate...

.

Edited by Abramelin

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The tsunami caused by the Storegga Slide appears to have had an extra devastating effect on the Jutland coast of Denmark:

Bernhard Weninger et al (2008)

The catastrophic final flooding of Doggerland by the

Storegga Slide tsunami

Documenta Praehistorica XXXV. Neolithic Studies 15:1-24

ABSTRACT

"Around 8200 calBP, large parts of the now submerged

North Sea continental shelf (‘Doggerland’) were

catastrophically flooded by the Storegga Slide tsunami,

one of the largest tsunamis known for the Holocene, which

was generated on the Norwegian coastal margin by a

submarine landslide.

In the present paper, we derive a precise calendric date

for the Storegga Slide tsunami, use this date for

reconstruction of contemporary coastlines in the North

Sea in relation to rapidly rising sea-levels, and discuss

the potential effects of the tsunami on the

contemporaneous Mesolithic population. One main result of

this study is an unexpectedly high tsunami impact

assigned to the western regions of Jutland."

KEY WORDS – Mesolithic; Doggerland; Storegga Slide tsunami; North Sea

Free download (pdf, 14 pp, 2.5 Mb):

http://www.soes.soton.ac.uk/staff/ejr/Rohling-papers/2008-Weninger%20et%20al%20Documenta%20Praehistorica.pdf

Selected quotes.

"We have assembled a large amount of 14C-radiometric

evidence for the Storegga Slide and its attendant

tsunami, ranging from Norway to the British Isles. We

find that the Storegga Slide tsunami event is reliably

and accurately dated to 7300 ± 30 14C-BP (p = 95%) [8100

± 100 calBP].

We then combined this with published palaeogeographic

reconstructions for the now submerged Northwest European

continental shelf known as ‘Doggerland’ and regional sea-

level records for the southern North Sea to evaluate the

potential environmental and social impact of the tsunami

in the Doggerland region."

* PALAEOGEOGRAPHICAL RECONSTRUCTIONS: KEY STAGES AND EVENTS

"The large continental shelf between Britain, Norway, and

the NW-European coast which is commonly known as

‘Doggerland’ is now completely submerged under the North

Sea, but was subaerially exposed at the beginning of the

Holocene. In addition, a considerable area of land was

exposed off the west coast of Jutland. Due to eustatic

sealevel changes, combined with glacio- and hydro-

isostatic land-level changes, the former land areas were

increasingly submerged during the course of the Early

Holocene.

Key stages in the development of Doggerland, ... include

(i) the gradual evolution of a large tidal embayment

between eastern England and Dogger Bank before 9 ka calBP

(9–8 ka 14C-BP);

(ii) the development of Dogger Bank as an island at high

tide 8–7 ka 14C-BP; and

(iii) the final disconnection of England from the

continent by c. 8.0 ka calBP (7–6 ka 14C-BP).

Prior to its complete flooding around 8000 calBP,

Doggerland formed a wide, undulating plain containing a

complex meandering river system, with associated channels

and lakes.

Although there is general consensus that Doggerland was

completely submerged by c. 8000 calBP, different authors

give alternative palaeogeographic reconstructions for the

history of Doggerland. Corresponding to the quite general

lack of archaeological and palaeo-environmental data from

the submerged areas, contemporary research puts the focus

on the timing of selected major (key) events.

An example is shown in Table 5, where Gyllencreutz has

collated published ages for the opening of the English

Channel. Note that, according to the ages given in Table

5, the English Channel was most likely open at the time

of the Storegga Slide Tsunami – although this may have

been a fairly recent development which had taken place

just a few hundred years previously.

Summaries such as Table 5 would imply that the existence

of the key event ‘Opening of the English Channel’ is not

open to question, but that its age is."

* MESOLITHIC PALAEODEMOGRAPHY

Since the pioneering studies of Coles (1998), it is

beyond credence that Doggerland was an inhabited

landscape during the Late Palaeolithic and earlier

Mesolithic periods. In terms of estimating the impact of

the Storegga slide event on contemporary human

populations, results will depend strongly on the extent

of the area impacted, the severity of the tsunami over

this area, and the density and distribution of human

settlement (Fig. 5).

Average population densities for Mesolithic northwest

Europe, based largely on ethnographic analogy, have been

estimated on the order of 0.05 to 0.10 person/km2.

However, the population would not have been evenly

distributed over Doggerland, and we can propose with some

confidence that coastal, lacustrine and riverine areas

would have experienced substantially higher population

densities, perhaps to the order of 0.50 to 1.0

person/km2, while areas further inland (away from

resources) would have been relatively sparsely populated.

There exists some stable isotope and archaeological

evidence in support of these notions."

http://sci.tech-archive.net/Archive/sci.archaeology/2009-05/msg00047.html

I have posted about this pdf before but I must have skipped past the remarks about the effect of the tsunami on Denmark.

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Because I once assumed that the name "Nehalennia" became a name for some sea goddess, but was originally the name of some now 'lost country' she represented, I asked a Finnish woman on my own site, what is "Land near ice and frost" in your language ( I asked her because the Doggerlanders must have been part of the Maglemosian culture, a culture of people speaking a Finno-Ugric language)?

She told me it was "maa lähellä halla ja jäätä". ['ja' is pronounced like English 'ya' or 'ia']

Sounds similar to the various spellings of Nehalennia, or "Neeltje Jans" as the name is preserved in my language. And - like I said - it were Romans in ancient Friesland who wrote it down and inscribed it on stone the way it sounded in their ears

But i think I made it a bit too difficult for myself: I could have simply asked her, "wat is 'land near ice' in your language?"

land near ice: maa lähellä jään ( >> 'j' is pronounced like 'y' in English 'ya' or 'i' in English 'ia' )

The ancient ancestors of the Frisians/Norwegians/Swedes/Danes may have been Doggerlanders who fled to southern Norway and Sweden, and to Denmark. This is even suggested on the Wiki page about Norway.

From the original name for that land that sunk, they only saved part: "Hella" or "Halja" (like San Franciso >> Frisco), and used it as a name for the North Sea, the sea that flooded their original homeland, their 'land near ice', maalähelläjään (Doggerland, as I have said many times in this thread, was nothing short of paradise 2000 years after the end of the ice age - think Gulf Stream and being low land - as compared with the surrounding countries that were still much covered in ice and barren tundra.)

Very much later the name of their ancient homeland still survived as the name for a sea goddess, "Nehalennia". And also for a very long time - well, part of the name - as the name for the sea that now covered their ancient homeland, the North Sea, or in old Frisian, Hel/Helja/Halja.

Today I watched again the BBC "Stone Age Atlantis" documentary about Doggerland.

Near the end of this doc a scientist tells us many neolithic stone axes were found on the socalled "Brown Banks", smack in the middle between southern Holland and England, and west of where all these much younger Nehalennia votice altars were found. The suggestion was that even long after Doggerland disappeared, people still remembered it, and offered to the sea what was then very precious to them: smoothly carved stone axes.

==-=-===-=-===

It has been recognized for a long time that Northern Norway was populated before the inland Scandinavia glacier melted. The inhabitants came from the West: England, the plains situated at the location of the present North Sea, and Germany. The archaeological findings of these areas have been classified as belonging to the Maglemose culture which now is considered to be largely similar to the Narva culture located to the East of the Baltic Sea. Thus it must have been the same population and probably also the same language. The immigrants were attracted to the Northern shores by abundant game for hunting and a chance of sea fishing. The White Sea cliff drawings of the later comb ceramic era show whalery in which large sea vessels (resembling the umiak leather boats of the Eskimos) were used, already aided by such developed tools as the harpoon and and an attached buoy which prevented the prey from diving. It is also known that the Basques practised whaling using small boats as late as the historic period.

The Finno-Ugrians who had conquered the North from the West had been separated from the Eastern inhabitation by the glacier and also by several centuries; consequently they were also genetically separated from the rest of the Finnish linguistic groups. Some indigenous genetic complexes were enriched while some more recent genetic effects received by their Southern tribal relatives were lacking. A reason like this may lie behind the genetic difference met with the Lapps.

kartta2.gif

http://victorian.fortunecity.com/christy/32/ak1e.html

http://pakana.150m.com/EKART1.HTM#10000

.

Today I found something on some 'Pagan' site:

The cults of Hel/Hella/Hola/Nehalennia far predate the standard Northern pantheon and the Aesir and Vanir gods,evidence exists which traces their existance as far back as the last Ice Age.The figure now known as Hel is a very much a creation of those Pantheons,but was originally a concept of the Primordial Goddess..,the Great Mother,the Earth mother.These staves relate to that concept..the Creater/Destroyer Goddess,to whom belongs life,death and rebirth.

http://www.freewebs.com/thebriarrose/theimmortalsyewwands.htm

I thought "WOW!", but where did the owner of this website get his idea from??

--

I once asked a Dutch linguist (on his webiste, in his thread about Nehalennia) what he thought about my - farfetched - etymology of the name "Nehalennia".. Well, for those who can't read Dutch, he agreed it was farfetched but very 'creative' (Lol, a polite way of saying it is crazy) : http://taaldacht.nl/2010/06/08/nehalennia/

His main argument against my idea was that modern Finnish (remember, I asked a Finnish woman how she would translate "Land near ice" in her language) would in no way resemble the Proto Finno-Ugric of the Doggerlanders of 6145 BC, IF that was the language they did speak to begin with.

But then I read this:

Hel ("the Hidden" from the word hel,"to conceal") is the Norse goddess of the dead, ruler of the nine worlds of the Land of Mist, Niflheim or Niflhel, located in the far north-- a cold, damp place that is home to frost giants and dwarves. The name Hel was applied both to the Queen of the Underworld and the land itself, and it is thought that the land gave the Queen Her name. In the late Christianized form of the myth, when Hel became Hell, she was said to be the daughter of Loki, who was equated with Lucifer.

http://www.thaliatook.com/AMGG/hel.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hel_(being)

Well, Doggerland/Dogger Island got 'hidden' or 'concealed' after it was flooded by the tsunami caused by the Storegga Slide.

And the mists - Niflheim, Land of Mist?? As I have showed here in this thread, cold and warm sea currents in the North Sea (cold currents from the north, warm currents from the south, through the newly formed Channel) could have created mists where they met, and that would have been at Dogger Island.

But according to scientists Doggerland/Dogger-Island wasn't cold; they have described it as a post ice age paradise (the only similar area after the end of the last ice age was near Japan).

Hmm... maybe the paradise thing was only true for Doggerland, but not for Dogger Island.

Another problem is this: could that name, "Maalähelläjään" (Nehalennia for Roman ears) - have lingered on for so many thousands of years?

.

Edited by Abramelin

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But according to scientists Doggerland/Dogger-Island wasn't cold; they have described it as a (post ice age paradise) (the only similar area after the end of the last ice age was near Japan).

(post ice age paradise) in comparison too the frozen north of the Ice Age.

That's how I read it Abe.

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But according to scientists Doggerland/Dogger-Island wasn't cold; they have described it as a (post ice age paradise) (the only similar area after the end of the last ice age was near Japan).

(post ice age paradise) in comparison too the frozen north of the Ice Age.

That's how I read it Abe.

Then you read it well, Flash.

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Origin

Haplogroup V is believed to have originated around the Western Mediterranean region, approximately 13,600 years before present- possibly on Iberia.

Distribution

It is found with particularly high concentrations in the Sámi People of northern Scandinavia, as well as the Basque people (10.4%) [1]and somewhat higher among the isolated Pasiegos in nearby Cantabria. It also is found in particularly high concentrations (16.3%) among the Berbers of Matmata, Tunisia.[3] The highest levels are in Scandinavian and Western and North African populations. It is spread at varying low levels across Europe and smaller portions of West and Central Asia.

23andMe writes: Introduction Haplogroup V first appeared in Iberia toward the end of the Ice Age, about 16,000 years ago, when Europe's human population was mostly restricted to a few temperate enclaves in the southern part of the continent. Aside from a branch that established itself in Sardinia during the period, haplogroup V was mostly confined to the Iberian peninsula until the Ice Age had ended.

The haplogroup began expanding once consistently warmer conditions arrived about 11,500 years ago. One migration carried it northward along the Atlantic to a low-lying coastal plain rich in game and marine food sources such as seals and sea birds. Known as Doggerland, that region lies under the North Sea today because so much water was locked up in the polar ice sheets during and immediately after the Ice Age, sea level was lower in the past than it is today.

Doggerland slipped beneath the waves about 9,000 years ago, but haplogroup V remains at levels of about 5% in countries that border the Atlantic and especially the North Sea. It is most abundant today in Scotland and northern Germany.

http://www.geni.com/people/Anne-Holt/6000000007051900070

Edited by Abramelin

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Today I found something on some 'Pagan' site:

The cults of Hel/Hella/Hola/Nehalennia far predate the standard Northern pantheon and the Aesir and Vanir gods,evidence exists which traces their existance as far back as the last Ice Age.The figure now known as Hel is a very much a creation of those Pantheons,but was originally a concept of the Primordial Goddess..,the Great Mother,the Earth mother.These staves relate to that concept..the Creater/Destroyer Goddess,to whom belongs life,death and rebirth.

http://www.freewebs.com/thebriarrose/theimmortalsyewwands.htm

I thought "WOW!", but where did the owner of this website get his idea from??

--

I once asked a Dutch linguist (on his webiste, in his thread about Nehalennia) what he thought about my - farfetched - etymology of the name "Nehalennia".. Well, for those who can't read Dutch, he agreed it was farfetched but very 'creative' (Lol, a polite way of saying it is crazy) : http://taaldacht.nl/2010/06/08/nehalennia/

His main argument against my idea was that modern Finnish (remember, I asked a Finnish woman how she would translate "Land near ice" in her language) would in no way resemble the Proto Finno-Ugric of the Doggerlanders of 6145 BC, IF that was the language they did speak to begin with.

But then I read this:

Hel ("the Hidden" from the word hel,"to conceal") is the Norse goddess of the dead, ruler of the nine worlds of the Land of Mist, Niflheim or Niflhel, located in the far north-- a cold, damp place that is home to frost giants and dwarves. The name Hel was applied both to the Queen of the Underworld and the land itself, and it is thought that the land gave the Queen Her name. In the late Christianized form of the myth, when Hel became Hell, she was said to be the daughter of Loki, who was equated with Lucifer.

http://www.thaliatook.com/AMGG/hel.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hel_(being)

Well, Doggerland/Dogger Island got 'hidden' or 'concealed' after it was flooded by the tsunami caused by the Storegga Slide.

And the mists - Niflheim, Land of Mist?? As I have showed here in this thread, cold and warm sea currents in the North Sea (cold currents from the north, warm currents from the south, through the newly formed Channel) could have created mists where they met, and that would have been at Dogger Island.

But according to scientists Doggerland/Dogger-Island wasn't cold; they have described it as a post ice age paradise (the only similar area after the end of the last ice age was near Japan).

Hmm... maybe the paradise thing was only true for Doggerland, but not for Dogger Island.

Another problem is this: could that name, "Maalähelläjään" (Nehalennia for Roman ears) - have lingered on for so many thousands of years?

.

DoggerIsland_Niflheim2.jpg

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Posted (edited)

http://www.sfu.ca/~mcollard/documents/Weninger_et_al_2008_000.pdf

The catastrophic final flooding of Doggerland

by the Storegga Slide tsunami

Heh, L, this and many other pdf's have already been posted in this thread.

Anyway, I'm glad you bumped this thread, because scientists (divers) are actually busy doing research on the Dogger Bank. However, they are not out to find anything of some old 'civilization', it's about the flora and fauna.

Expedition Dogger bank

http://www.expeditiedoggersbank.nl/wp/wp-content/uploads/doggerbank-expedition.pdf

http://www.scubasupport.nl/webshop/NEWS/15/LANG/2/Scuba-Support--Eddy-van-Vliet-will-join-the-Doggersbank-Expedition.html

Here a video on Vimeo:

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Edited by Abramelin

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Bathymetry of the North Sea. Bathymetry data by GEBCO. Video production with ArcGIS by Carmen Ulmen / KlimaCampus Hamburg, 2008.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XS1JrfUtnw

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I'm sorry that I don't have anything more substantive to add, but I just thought I'd say what a great thread this is. It's taken me two days to read through it all and follow up the various links; I'm still absorbing all of the information presented here and trying to make some sense of it, but I agree that it's sad that only a few people seem interested enough to comment on it. Anyway, it inspired me to delurk just so I could say this!

If I may indulge in a bit of Sitchin/Oera Linda-like wild speculation, something occurred to me a few pages ago. If one is theorising that the original name of the sunken Doggerland and/or the goddess venerated by its inhabitants was something like "Maalähelläjään", by a process of pseudo-linguistic free association that name (whatever it really was) could end up rendered as something like "Malhalya". I don't know how you get from an "M" sound to a "W"/"V", but at least it kind of rhymes with "Valhalla"... ;)

Okay, okay, it was worth a try though, right?

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Posted (edited)

I'm sorry that I don't have anything more substantive to add, but I just thought I'd say what a great thread this is. It's taken me two days to read through it all and follow up the various links; I'm still absorbing all of the information presented here and trying to make some sense of it, but I agree that it's sad that only a few people seem interested enough to comment on it. Anyway, it inspired me to delurk just so I could say this!

If I may indulge in a bit of Sitchin/Oera Linda-like wild speculation, something occurred to me a few pages ago. If one is theorising that the original name of the sunken Doggerland and/or the goddess venerated by its inhabitants was something like "Maalähelläjään", by a process of pseudo-linguistic free association that name (whatever it really was) could end up rendered as something like "Malhalya". I don't know how you get from an "M" sound to a "W"/"V", but at least it kind of rhymes with "Valhalla"... ;)

Okay, okay, it was worth a try though, right?

Hi John, welcome to UM!

By this qoute I will from now on always remember you: "by a process of pseudo-linguistic free association", LOL.

Anyway, as long as you know that is what it's about, then I think you are on safe ground.

Btw, I once asked a Dutch linguist (or maybe better, a writer who's life long 'hobby' is studying linguistics) about "Maalähelläjään" because he had written a long article about the etymology of the name "Nehalennia" on his blog. He told me it was 'a nice try', but very, very unlikely (based on sound-shifts, amongst other things).

.

Edited by Abramelin

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By this qoute I will from now on always remember you: "by a process of pseudo-linguistic free association", LOL.

Well, you throw what you can at the wall and see what sticks, right? ;D

But some of the stuff you were saying upthread, and mentioned also in the "Stone Age Atl****s" documentary, about people continuing to make offerings in the form of precious goods (stone axes) when they passed over the sunken Doggerland in their boats. It reminded me a lot of this kind of thing (which you've probably already checked out):

http://traumwerk.stanford.edu/archaeolog/2008/02/celtic_swords_and_arthurs_lady.html

Now, the timescales between Doggerland and Celtic sword offerings are pretty vast, I agree, but I think it's interesting, the idea that the "Otherworld" was underwater/underground and could be accessed via lakes, rivers, the sea etc. Okay, so a lake in Switzerland is not the North Sea, but if one was Robert Temple or somebody, one could postulate in the pages of one's mighty tome that the refugees from Doggerland and their descendants (and there seems to be a lot of evidence now that even if cultures and languages changed over time, it wasn't so much a case of mass colonisation as one of indigenous populations being "converted" by relatively small numbers of migrants) carried on the tradition long after more than the vaguest memories of what they were doing and why they were doing it had faded. All they had was the idea that the gods/afterlife existed underwater, somewhere, and maybe this vague idea continued right into Medieval/Christian times with things like the Hellweg processional routes that you mentioned earlier in the thread.

Plus you can bring the Arthurian stuff into it, which probably sells books! ;)

But yes, it's suggestive anyway. Suggestive of what exactly, well that's a good question. Plus there's the suggestion that Nuada/Nuadu/Nuadha, him of the Tuatha De Danann, was in some way associated with swords and watery offerings. Wikipedia, that fountain of reliable information (!) says that Nuada "is cognate with the Gaulish and British god Nodens. His Welsh equivalent is Nudd or Lludd Llaw Eraint."

Well, according to Wiki, Nodens "is a Celtic deity associated with healing, the sea, hunting and dogs." Dogs again, eh? Moreover, the main Romano-British cult centre for Nodens, at a place now called Lydney Park is situated so that "it offered a clear view of the massive Severn Bore, a tidal wave which, under certain conditions, rises near Gloucester and its position within an earlier Iron Age hill fort must also be relevant."

Okay, the wrong coast and a few thousand years too late, but we're free-associating here, right?

If you read some more of the Wiki articles, you'll also see claims that the name Nuada/Nodens/Nudd might be derived from a Proto-Indo-European root meaning, among other things, "go fishing". And it also points out the similarity between these names and the Norse sea good Njordr. Anyway; some tenuous stuff, probably, but I like this sort of dot-joining exercise...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuada_Airgetl%C3%A1m

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nodens

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lludd_Llaw_Eraint

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What I'm finding interesting, Abramelin, is that the area in and around Doggerland would suggest that it's likely that the peoples were already genetically diverse, even at that time. It would also tend to run contrary to any claim of genetic origins or a mother-culture based on same as presented in the OLB thread. Which I realize is not your claim here, but I find it interesting that no matter how one attempts to tackle the genetics question it never substantiates the claims made in the other thread. You gotta love science. :lol:

GeneticsinandaroundDoggerland.jpg

cormac

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John, I will add my answer to you in bold/italic type between your quoted post:

Well, you throw what you can at the wall and see what sticks, right? ;D

Did you read the summaries I posted in this thread? I threw a lot, heh.

But some of the stuff you were saying upthread, and mentioned also in the "Stone Age Atl****s" documentary, about people continuing to make offerings in the form of precious goods (stone axes) when they passed over the sunken Doggerland in their boats. It reminded me a lot of this kind of thing (which you've probably already checked out):

http://traumwerk.stanford.edu/archaeolog/2008/02/celtic_swords_and_arthurs_lady.html

Yes, but maybe you know that some think those precious (and obviously unsued) stone axes were nothing but trade ware (? my english, sorry) that had fallen overboard to be found millennia later on the Brown Banks.

Didn't click the link yet, but I will later.

Now, the timescales between Doggerland and Celtic sword offerings are pretty vast, I agree, but I think it's interesting, the idea that the "Otherworld" was underwater/underground and could be accessed via lakes, rivers, the sea etc. Okay, so a lake in Switzerland is not the North Sea, but if one was Robert Temple or somebody, one could postulate in the pages of one's mighty tome that the refugees from Doggerland and their descendants (and there seems to be a lot of evidence now that even if cultures and languages changed over time, it wasn't so much a case of mass colonisation as one of indigenous populations being "converted" by relatively small numbers of migrants) carried on the tradition long after more than the vaguest memories of what they were doing and why they were doing it had faded. All they had was the idea that the gods/afterlife existed underwater, somewhere, and maybe this vague idea continued right into Medieval/Christian times with things like the Hellweg processional routes that you mentioned earlier in the thread.

Plus you can bring the Arthurian stuff into it, which probably sells books! ;)

Man, you actually did read the whole thread ! Well, than you know both the Tuatha De Danann and the Fomorians are said to have come from some mythical underwater land (according to some translations Fomorian means 'from under the water'), or Lochlann (the 'land of lakes/lochs').

I can imagine a catastrophical and traumatic event like the Storegga Slide(s), an event that continued for probably DAYS on end (compare that with what happened in the Indian Ocean and Japan, events that 'only' took hours...) would be ingrained in the memory of the survivors, and told about for many generations to come.

But the big question is: could the core of a myth created around that event last for millennia??

But yes, it's suggestive anyway. Suggestive of what exactly, well that's a good question. Plus there's the suggestion that Nuada/Nuadu/Nuadha, him of the Tuatha De Danann, was in some way associated with swords and watery offerings. Wikipedia, that fountain of reliable information (!) says that Nuada "is cognate with the Gaulish and British god Nodens. His Welsh equivalent is Nudd or Lludd Llaw Eraint."

Well, according to Wiki, Nodens "is a Celtic deity associated with healing, the sea, hunting and dogs." Dogs again, eh? Moreover, the main Romano-British cult centre for Nodens, at a place now called Lydney Park is situated so that "it offered a clear view of the massive Severn Bore, a tidal wave which, under certain conditions, rises near Gloucester and its position within an earlier Iron Age hill fort must also be relevant."

Okay, the wrong coast and a few thousand years too late, but we're free-associating here, right?

If you read some more of the Wiki articles, you'll also see claims that the name Nuada/Nodens/Nudd might be derived from a Proto-Indo-European root meaning, among other things, "go fishing". And it also points out the similarity between these names and the Norse sea good Njordr. Anyway; some tenuous stuff, probably, but I like this sort of dot-joining exercise...

OK, I will look into it more; never thought of that connection (despite the fact that I absolutely love Irish/Celtic legends).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuada_Airgetl%C3%A1m

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nodens

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lludd_Llaw_Eraint

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What I'm finding interesting, Abramelin, is that the area in and around Doggerland would suggest that it's likely that the peoples were already genetically diverse, even at that time. It would also tend to run contrary to any claim of genetic origins or a mother-culture based on same as presented in the OLB thread. Which I realize is not your claim here, but I find it interesting that no matter how one attempts to tackle the genetics question it never substantiates the claims made in the other thread. You gotta love science. :lol:

GeneticsinandaroundDoggerland.jpg

cormac

Heh, Cormac, when you post stuff like this, I feel like a total moron; the last time I studied anything about genetics was in the 70's of the past century. Could you, please, spell it out for me??

Ah, damn, you mean in connection with the OLB thread, and what Alewyn had to say about it. I will read again what he writes about it in his book.

But... sigh.. you say people were 'already' diverse at the time.. and you show a chart that says people around Doggerland were somewhat apart/unique, genetically speaking, around the time the Doggerland submerged, from the peoples living around them. How much time does it take for that to happen?

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Posted (edited)

And what about this:

"Caribbeans in Britain - A return to ancestral lands?"

http://www.bnvillage.co.uk/black-roots-village/105367-caribbeans-britain-return-ancestral-lands.html

Wetwang_true.jpg

Hahaha !!

Ahem.

The Fomorians were always described as being 'swarthy'.

Just kidding.

Lol, maybe they were those black people from the OLB "Lydia"??

.

Edited by Abramelin

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