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Sceptical believer

Doggerland

863 posts in this topic

It never fails to amaze me: this is about a large submerged area, land that submerged 8200 years ago. But only 2 or 3 people bother to read what it's all about and post their opinions.

I think that most fantasts and crackpots are scared by facts.

This topic is too real for them.

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I know what you mean, Abramelin - I used to tend to believe what I read about "ancient mysteries". I remember being fascinated by Robert Temple's book about the Dogon tribe and Sirius and finding his arguments very convincing indeed...and then a few years later I read something which pretty convincingly proved that the whole thing had been pretty much made up by a couple of French anthropologists and was all rubbish... Just like when I was a kid I used to believe every word of those Charles Berlitz books about Atlantis etc - now I look through them and see them for the hack-work that they are and feel vaguely embarrassed for my younger self. Ah well...

Back on-topic, kind of. I've spent a bit of time reading up on Star Carr, sort of the Mesolithic Sutton Hoo as it's been called. As you probably know, it's in Yorkshire, near the coast on what used to be the shore of a shallow lake, so might provide something of an idea of how the people in Doggerland would have lived a couple of thousand years before the deluge. In fact, the people living at Star Carr may well have spent part of their year in Doggerland too, I would think. Anyway, the antler "mask" they found there is very impressive and evocative, I think - hinting at all kinds of religious and mystical rituals we may never fully understand:

285.jpg

And some artifacts. The thing on the right has been called a paddle for rowing a boat, but some people think it's too small to be a practical paddle. So who knows?

tmpC728_thumb1.jpg

Anyway, I found these interesting.

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I know what you mean, Abramelin - I used to tend to believe what I read about "ancient mysteries". I remember being fascinated by Robert Temple's book about the Dogon tribe and Sirius and finding his arguments very convincing indeed...and then a few years later I read something which pretty convincingly proved that the whole thing had been pretty much made up by a couple of French anthropologists and was all rubbish... Just like when I was a kid I used to believe every word of those Charles Berlitz books about Atlantis etc - now I look through them and see them for the hack-work that they are and feel vaguely embarrassed for my younger self. Ah well...

Back on-topic, kind of. I've spent a bit of time reading up on Star Carr, sort of the Mesolithic Sutton Hoo as it's been called. As you probably know, it's in Yorkshire, near the coast on what used to be the shore of a shallow lake, so might provide something of an idea of how the people in Doggerland would have lived a couple of thousand years before the deluge. In fact, the people living at Star Carr may well have spent part of their year in Doggerland too, I would think. Anyway, the antler "mask" they found there is very impressive and evocative, I think - hinting at all kinds of religious and mystical rituals we may never fully understand:

285.jpg

And some artifacts. The thing on the right has been called a paddle for rowing a boat, but some people think it's too small to be a practical paddle. So who knows?

tmpC728_thumb1.jpg

Anyway, I found these interesting.

Thanks for that great image of the mask, John. Never seen it before.

Yes, I have written about Star Carr in this thread, as you may know, and the people living there may certainy have had close connections with what once was Doggerland at it's greatest extent. I too think Star Carr may have been a settlement that was occupied during summer months when the weather was more agreeable, and that its inhabitants moved back to Doggerland when winter set in.

About boats and such: they now know Doggerland was a land of many lakes, rivers and marshes, and I think it wouldn't be a big surprize if the people living there also built boats or canoes for fishing and maybe even for hunting seals and whales. The oldest known dug-out canoe is like a 9000 years old, and found in Pesse in the province of Drenthe, the Netherlands.

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Posted (edited)

I found something that doesn't add anything new to what has already been posted in this thread, but it shows what some people 60 years ago thought of the ancient history of the North Sea (and before anyone ever heard of the Storegga Slides):

===

From: THE SEA AROUND US - by Rachel Carson (1951)

CHAPTER FIVE: HIDDEN LANDS

(...)

Like other legends deeply rooted in folklore, the Atlantis story may have in it an

element of truth. In the shadowy beginnings of human life on earth, primitive men here

and there must have had knowledge of the sinking of an island or a peninsula, perhaps

not with the dramatic suddenness attributed to Atlantis, but well within the time one man

could observe. The witnesses of such a happening would have described it to their

neighbours and children, and so the legend of a sinking continent might have been born.

Such a lost land lies today beneath the waters of the North Sea. Only a few scores of

thousands of years ago, the Dogger Bank was dry land, but now the fishermen drag their

nets over this famed fishing ground, catching cod and hake and flounders among its

drowned tree trunks.

During the Pleistocene, when immense quantities of water were withdrawn from the

ocean and locked up in the glaciers, the floor of the North Sea emerged and for a time

became land. It was a low, wet land, covered with peat bogs; then little by little the

forests from the neighbouring high lands must have moved in, for there were willows and

birches growing among the mosses and ferns. Animals moved down from the mainland

and became established on this land recently won from the sea. There were bears and

wolves and hyenas, the wild ox, the bison, the woolly rhinoceros, and the mammoth.

Primitive men moved through the forests, carrying crude stone instruments; they stalked

deer and other game and with their flints grubbed up the roots of the damp forest.

Then as the glaciers began to retreat and floods from the melting ice poured into the

sea and raised its level, this land became an island. Probably the men escaped to the

mainland before the intervening channel had become too wide, leaving their stone

implements behind. But most of the animals remained, perforce, and little by little their

island shrank, and food became more and more scarce, but there was no escape. Finally

the sea covered the island, claiming the land and all its life.

As for the men who escaped, perhaps in their primitive way they communicated this

story to other men, who passed it down to others through the ages, until it became fixed

in the memory of the race.

None of these facts were part of recorded history until, a generation ago; European

fishermen moved out into the middle of the North Sea and began to trawl on the Dogger.

They soon made out the contours of an irregular plateau nearly as large as Denmark,

lying about 60 feet under water, but sloping off abruptly at its edges into much deeper

water, Their trawls immediately began to bring up a great many things not found on any

ordinary fishing bank. There were loose masses of peat, which the fishermen christened

moor-log. There were many bones, and, although the fishermen could not identify them,

they seemed to belong to large land mammals. All of these objects damaged the nets and

hindered fishing, so whenever possible the fishermen dragged them off the bank and sent

them tumbling into deep water. But they brought back some of the bones, some of the

moor-log and fragments of trees, and the crude stone implements; these specimens were

turned over to-scientists to identify. In this strange debris of the fishing nets the scientists

recognized a whole Pleistocene fauna and flora, and the artifacts of Stone-Age man. And

remembering how once the North Sea had been dry land, they reconstructed the story of

Dogger Bank, the lost island.

http://www.arvindguptatoys.com/arvindgupta/seacarson.pdf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sea_Around_Us

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Posted (edited)

I am not much into Atlantis theories, but despite that, I think this guy, Ulf Erlingsson, has an interesting theory about it (the next link is to a video on the guy's site):

http://atlantisinireland.com/AtlantisVideo.mp4'>http://atlantisinireland.com/AtlantisVideo.mp4

http://atlantisinireland.com/

Oh, and the Silverpit Crater he talks about is not an impact crater, but something to do with salt domes.

+++++

EDIT:

Yes, I know, I have posted about this guy already in this thread.

But maybe someone shows up with even more 'enlightened' ideas after watching the video (which I can't embed for god knows what reason).

Well, he is not talking from his ar.., although I think his 'Ireland/Atlantis' idea is way off.

And this is Ulf's depiction of the Storegga Slide (6145 BC):

StoreggaTsunami.gif

Mind you: Doggerland was WAY bigger back then than he depicts in his animation:

bathymetry-doggerbank-chart3.jpg

And all the pics I have shown in this thread are based on bathymetric scans.

What do you think: is it correct or not?

I think not, and this is why: according to those who discovered about the Storegga Slides said that it took from several hours to 3 DAYS !!.

You think the bathymetric scans will show us how Doggerland really looked like, 6145 BC?

I think lots of topsoil got dragged down the drain, and what modern bathymetric scans show us is what was left of it.

Areas with lots of sand, peat, loose soil and mud that stacked up for many meters would have been flushed.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Posted (edited)

Sorry for my continuous editing, but it's kind of hard to portray yourself as a skeptic and being scientific when you are hammered.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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StoreggaTsunami.gif

Mind you: Doggerland was WAY bigger back then than he depicts in his animation:

bathymetry-doggerbank-chart3.jpg

And all the pics I have shown in this thread are based on bathymetric scans.

What do you think: is it correct or not?

I think not, and this is why: according to those who discovered about the Storegga Slides said that it took from several hours to 3 DAYS !!.

You think the bathymetric scans will show us how Doggerland really looked like, 6145 BC?

I think lots of topsoil got dragged down the drain, and what modern bathymetric scans show us is what was left of it.

Areas with lots of sand, peat, loose soil and mud that stacked up for many meters would have been flushed.

Of course bathymetric scans can only show us what is left, but that gives us a reasonably accurate idea of the extent of Doggerland at the time. What can be shown from the bathymetric scans, as well as knowledge of sea-level increase, would be that the area directly north of the Dogger Bank (below 50 meters) would have been covered by water by at least 8000 BC. Even as devastating as the Storegga Slide was, it doesn't answer the question as to where the water that eventually, completely, covered Doggerland came from. I have to wonder what other melting glaciers or ice dams existed at that time to account for that.

cormac

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Posted (edited)

You seem to forget Doggerland had already been sinking continuously because of the post-glacial-isostatic rebound/adjustment, and that before Lake Agassiz emptied into the Atlantic, and before the Storegga Slides flushed it at its end.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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You seem to forget Doggerland had already been sinking continuously because of the post-glacial-isostatic rebound/adjustment, and that before Lake Agassiz emptied into the Atlantic, and before the Storegga Slides flushed it at its end.

.

During the time-interval 8200–

8000 calBP, the coastal lowlands of North Germany

and the Netherlands were being steadily inundated

by rising sea-levels due to a combination of eustatic

and isostatic processes (amounting to a rise of 1.25m

per century*, Behre 2003). In addition, there would

have been an abrupt 0.25–0.5m sea-level jump at

around 8300 calBP, marking the sea-level effects of

the catastrophic meltwater release from Lake Agassiz

that triggered the so-called ‘8200 calBP’ cold

event around the Atlantic (e.g. LeGrande 2006; Clare

et al., this issue). Simply stated, due to this coincidence,

it may have been unusually cold and windy

on the remaining coasts of Doggerland.

* 49.21 inches per 100 years or .49 inches per year.

The freshwater release estimates are of importance

for the present studies, since this water would lead

to an abrupt rise of global-mean sea level. The estimates

range from about 0.25 to 0.5m**, with timescales

of the release thought to be in the order of several

months to a year (e.g. Bauer et al. 2004; Le-

Grande 2006).

** 9.84 - 19.6 inches

The catastrophic final flooding of Doggerland by the Storegga Slide tsunami

So the eustatic/isostatic processes account for the sea level rise of around .49 inches per year, over a 200 year span (8200 - 8000 calBP) while a sudden influx of fresh water 100 years prior (8300 calBP) accounts for 9.84 - 19.6 inches over several months to a year. Even extending the sea level rise (due to eustatic/isostatic processes) back 100 years to start at the same time as the fresh water influx from Lake Agassiz-Ojibway, we only get .49 X 300 + 19.6 = 166.6 inches (13.88 feet MAXIMUM). Yet the remains of Doggerland are covered by a minimum of 70 feet and have been so for the remainder of the time since. Again, I have to wonder what other glaciers/ice dams may have been, at least in part, responsible for the difference.

cormac

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Posted (edited)

Well, Lake Agassiz was not the only huge ice lake that emptied into the ocean, there were equally huge ice lakes in Siberia that did the same after the end of the last ice age.

I once had a nice map that showed these lakes near the Scandinavian ice sheet, bt I can't find it again.

Anyway, another huge ice lake was in southern Siberia, the Altai region:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Siberian_Glacial_Lake

http://www.mendeley.com/research/icedammed-lakes-rerouting-drainage-northern-eurasia-during-last-glaciation/

http://www.amazon.com/Ice-dammed-rerouting-drainage-northern-Glaciation/dp/B000RR0I5I

http://books.google.nl/books?id=fuC04-ZOs9EC&pg=PA5&lpg=PA5&dq=Siberia+ob+yenisey+%22ice+lake%22+huge&source=bl&ots=3EYJV9TcG3&sig=XjdHOcDIA5fwVng_Z-GTE94AwH8&hl=nl&ei=-7JiTLLuOoylOLaq_OUJ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8&ved=0CEwQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q&f=false

However, it's not clear to me when this lake emptied itself.

++++++

EDIT:

Ancylus Lake, the later Baltic

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Baltic_History_7500-BC.svg

This fresh water lake breached through southern Sweden at some point in history, and after that was connected wih the North Sea.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Posted (edited)

I forgot to add something I found a couple of days earlier, and may give you an answer:

YouTube:

German:

Der Klimawandel lässt den Meeresspiegel ansteigen. Doch wie verteilt sich das zusätzliche Wasser? Verblüffende Erkenntnis der Forscher: Schwächelt der Golfstrom, staut sich das Wasser in der Nordsee auf. Taut das Eis Grönlands, bleibt der Pegel an Deutschlands Küsten praktisch gleich.

English:

Climate change is raising sea level. But how will the extra water be distributed? Stunning revelation of the researchers: it weakens the Gulf Stream, dams/blocks the water in the North Sea. Thaws the ice of Greenland, the sealevel at Germany's coasts remain practically the same.

This German scientis also says that because of the uneven distrubtion of mass, the earth looks like a potato, and also causes the water to be unevenly distributed over the globe, a difference in sealevel which can be as large as a 100 meters (300 feet).

++++++++

EDIT:

Something in English:

GOCE is able to sense tiny variations in the pull of gravity over Earth, and the data is used to construct an idealized surface, which traces gravity lumps and bumps, and is the shape the oceans would take without winds, currents, Earth’s rotation and other forces.

By comparing sea level and geoid data, GOCE is revealing data on ocean currents and circulation, sea-level change, ice dynamics, said Rory Bingham, from the University of Newcastle, which helps understand heat transport and the changing climate.

http://www.universetoday.com/84532/new-results-from-goce-earth-is-a-rotating-potato/

GOCE-geoid.jpg

In this GOCE image, gravity is strongest in yellow areas; it is weakest in blue ones. Credit: ESA.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Posted (edited)

Here is that map with the melt-water lakes near the Scandinavian ice sheet I was looking for:

Post 236, page 16:

icemapend.gif

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Posted (edited)

Please compare the next maps:

undrmapr.jpg

Dogger_Hades.jpg

This will be a 'toe-crenching' experience to many, but it's a thing I just have to vent.

The rivers Rhine and Elbe have their sources near the source of the Danube, ergo: contact was easy between the North Sea and the Black Sea.

People traded for many thousands of years, and one of the preferred items to trade in was amber.

Poeple are nothing but human crows, and will do anything to get anything shiny.

People living near the Danube must have traded with people living at the coasts of the North Sea.

And they not only traded goods, but stories too.

========

TANATOS: Thanet Island, in Kent?

(The fact that Thanet has more Bronze age burial mounds than anywhere else in Britain which could have been seen right out to sea, and the Isle and already had the name Tane'tus may be just a coincidence. What do you think??

http://www.bbc.co.uk/kent/content/articles/2006/05/15/thanet_isle_of_death_feature.shtml )

-

TARTAROS: the Silverpit 'Crater' (it's not a real crater, but a collapsed salt dome), south of Dogger Bank?

(In classic mythology, below Uranus (sky), Gaia (earth), and Pontus (sea) is Tartarus, or Tartaros (Greek ???ta???, deep place). It is a deep, gloomy place, a pit, or an abyss used as a dungeon of torment and suffering that resides beneath the underworld. In the Gorgias, Plato (c. 400 BC) wrote that souls were judged after death and those who received punishment were sent to Tartarus.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tartarus)

ACHERON: the river Rhine?

(Etymology: From Latin Acheron from Ancient Greek ?????? (Acheron) from ? ??ea ???? (ho akhea rheon, “the stream of woe”.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Acheron.

Think 'Rhone', a river in France, 'flowing'/stream)

ERIDANOS: the river Elbe? or the Kattegat??

(The ancient amber trade route ran from the Baltic Sea, down the Elbe River, and on to the Danube. From there roads led overland through the Brenner Pass into Italy, the heart of the Roman Empire. Rome was the undisputed center of the amber industry. The Romans used amber in a number of different objects, including coins. They apparently valued amber even more than the fair-haired Baltic slaves, the harvesters of amber, whom Tacitus regarded as savages. Not until the third century A.D., when wars with the Goths made such trade in luxury items unsustainable, did the Roman domination of the amber industry come to an end. (See Spekke)

http://www1.american.edu/ted/amber.htm)

PALACE OF HADES: Dogger Bank/Island?

(god knows, maybe there was a woodhenge on the top of what is now the Dogger bank, maybe Hades' Castle )

STYX: the more or less east/west flowing river south of Dogger Bank/Island?

PLEGETHON: the river Vecht (it once flowed between Enkhuizen and Stavoren into the North Sea)?

(Phlegethon - This was the river of fire in Hades. It's said that while the fire burned, it did not consume anything within it's flames.

http://www.spiffy-entertainment.com/mythrivers.html

VECHT:

http://www.nevenzel.com/04%20staringcollege/NMKDV.html

This river Vecht once run between Stavoren and Enkhuizen (Netherlands). It must have passed the "Red Cliff" south-west of Friesland. This cliff was once considered to be a volcano because it was in flames occassionally. But now they think it was caused by gas that got ignited.)

LETHE:

"In Greek mythology, Lethe (Λήθη; Classical Greek [ˈlɛːtʰɛː], modern Greek: [ˈliθi]) was one of the five rivers of Hades"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lethe

LETHE LINK

This is the German version...

xLethe.jpg

EZG_Lethe.JPG

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/75/Hunte_pos.png

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Posted (edited)

** never mind**

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Posted (edited)

I remember a guy called "Tony", posting on the Oera Linda thread, asking me if I knew about any Greek names showing up in northern Europe. I showed him a lot of names.

I think I will have to agree with Puzzler: ancient Greeks were in contact with people living at the coasts of the North Sea.

They were in contact by the Rhine/Elbe and the Danube.

These people exchanged goods (amber), but they also exchanged stories.

And no doubt: they will have told the ancestors of the Greeks about the way their ancestoral homeground got flushed by a gigantic wave.

++

Homer must have heard of these stories, and then, many centuries later, Plato heard of these stories too, and then used them for his idea of a doomed society.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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About boats and such: they now know Doggerland was a land of many lakes, rivers and marshes, and I think it wouldn't be a big surprize if the people living there also built boats or canoes for fishing and maybe even for hunting seals and whales. The oldest known dug-out canoe is like a 9000 years old, and found in Pesse in the province of Drenthe, the Netherlands.

Given that the technology probably existed, and given the probably conditions in Doggerland that you mention, I think even if the item in the illustration isn't actually a paddle, they more likely than not had some form of water transport, certainly sufficient to navigate around the coastal regions of Doggerland and what became the North Sea. And those spear-points in the picture - I don't pretend to be an expert, but those rows of barbs/serrations make me think of fish-spears or harpoons (and given that Star Carr was on the shores of a lake, that's probably what they were, although obviously they were hunting deer and other biggish game too).

I like your Greek theory - it may be a bit speculative, but it's the good kind of speculative. No aliens or Atlanteans in sight :D To me, it doesn't seem all that implausible. As you say, when Europe was still sparsely inhabited and largely covered with forest, travel via rivers was probably if anything easier than travel overland - it doesn't seem implausible that trade networks existed between the North Sea/Baltic and the Black Sea, especially when you consider that it wouldn't necessarily be a case of individuals having to travel the whole distance personally; trade could very likely have occurred via various middlemen. I'm a firm believer that goods and information in prehistoric, ancient and medieval times could and did travel much further and more routinely than most people probably suspect, even if the vast majority of individuals didn't travel so far. I'm thinking of things like medieval Islamic pottery and coins turning up in Canada (true, apparently!). It wasn't a case of Arabs visiting the New World, but rather Arabs trading with Vikings in Russia, Vikings in Russia trading with Scandinavia, Scandinavia trading with Iceland, Iceland trading with Greenland, Greenlanders making at least occasional visits to North America and having some limited contact with the Native Americans. I'm sure similar networks existed in earlier times too (we know there was limited contact between Rome and China), maybe in prehistoric times. Maybe not between Europe and the Americas (although you never know given when you were saying above about the "swarthy" Formorians...), but between Northern and Southern Europe doesn't seem like a stretch to me at all - in fact, it seems very likely to me.

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Posted (edited)

Yep John, I have tried to stay within the bounderies of the reasonable and acceptable throughout this thread, though I have to admit that occassionally fantasy got the better of me, lol, and as SlimJim already said many pages ago, the material in this thread could be used to write a tome of fictional pre-history (which several writers already did / I posted excerpts of their books too).

Yesterday I wanted to look up something about the Fomorians.... An alternative spelling is Formorians, with an extra -r-. I tried For Morians... made a spelling error, and wrote "Fir Moroians". Google showed me a page that mentioned the "Fir Morocchi", lol:

"One of the most startling accounts tells us that the Mediterranean gods were born upon islands in a coastal salt-water marsh upon the coast of Morocco. The map from Abraham Ortelius shown above actually depicts this place of origin before it was washed away by giant tsunami generated by earthquakes. Herein lies a fantastic tale of detection surrounding Mercator and Ortelius, and other early map-makers. Also learn of the Fir-Morocchi of Ireland, the sea-faring Veneti of megalithic Carnac in Brittany, and the Phoenician strongholds in ancient Cadiz and Morocco."

http://www.originofculture.com/

It's yet another book about Atlantis, but the only interesting thing is the way the writer changed the name of the Fomorians into Fir Morocchi.

As you see, the writer also talks about Carnac, Brittany in France.

"Carnac is home to some of the earliest megaliths in Europe. It shows several distinct phases of construction, denoted by the occasional re-use of existing monuments. The following is a basic breakdown of the main prehistoric construction phases at Carnac.

Charcoal from the St. Michel Tumulus (see below) has been radio-carbon dated to 6,850 BC (4).

The first major construction phase at Carnac is at c. 4,500 BC as the following examples illustrate:

The Kercado passage mound, south-east of the Kermario alignment produced radio-Carbon dates of 4,700 BC. The mound is surrounded by a circle of stones and has a menhir on its peak. The entrance of the chamber faces 32° south of east, almost exactly towards midwinter sunrise. (3)

The only relatively clear date for the alignments is provided by the Manio Tumular bank, an early monument (5th millennium B.C.) covered by the ends of the Kermario alignments, which must therefore be considered more recent. (5)

Le Grand Menhir alignment (and other parts of Lochmariaquer site), have been dated at c. 4,500 BC (6)

The second major construction phase is at c.3,300 BC as the following examples illustrate:

Parts of Le Grand Menhir alignment are re-used as capstones for La Table des Marchands (over an existing stone), Er-Grah, and the Gavr'inis passage mounds.

The alignments at Carnac are believed to have been built at this time. Burl indicates a date of around 3,300 BC with an error of several hundred years (7)"

http://www.ancient-wisdom.co.uk/francecarnac.htm

It would be interesting to find out (DNA extracted from skeletons) if the ancient people living in what is now the Carnac area were in contact with those who lived in Doggerland.

I have mentioned several writers in this thread who suggested that Doggerland may have been some sort of origin of the megalithic culture in western Europe, but one of my arguments against that was that the megalithic culture in western Europe started several thousands of years after Doggerland sank beneath the waves (Dogger Island is said to have stayed above sea level until around 5000 BC).

These finds in/near Carnac could, however, support their view.

What I also find interesting is that Carnac is a place where one would go to to be safe of any future floods coming from the far north (Storegga Slides); check a map, and you will see that 'anything' coming from the north would not be able to directly hit the Carnac area: Brittany is between Carnac and the Channel/North Sea.

The next map is based on a still I made from an interactive map. It is supposed to show Doggerland/-island around 5750 BC (the red line is a possible sea route from Doggerland to Carnac):

Doggerland_5750BC_Carnac.jpg

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Posted (edited)

At present the Strait of Dover (or "Nauw van Calais" as it is called in Dutch) is 34 km/21 miles wide.

But it opened up many, many millennia ago:

" (...) a new study by Gupta et al. (2007)[3][4] suggests that the English Channel was formed by erosion caused by two major floods. The first was about 425 000 years ago, when an ice-dammed lake in the southern North Sea overflowed and broke the Weald-Artois chalk range in a catastrophic erosion and flood event. Afterwards, the Thames and Scheldt flowed through the gap into the English Channel, but the Meuse and Rhine still flowed northwards. In a second flood about 225 000 years ago the Meuse and Rhine were ice-dammed into a lake that broke catastrophically through a high weak barrier (perhaps chalk, or an end-moraine left by the ice sheet). Both floods cut massive flood channels in the dry bed of the English Channel, somewhat like the Channeled Scablands or the Wabash river in the USA"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strait_of_Dover

But how wide would it have been around 8000 years ago? The chalk cliffs on both sides of the strait are - and most probably have been for ages - erroding quite fast.

The next is an impression (originally it had not anything to do with this strait) how it could have looked 8000 years ago:

Strait_of_Dover.jpg

Now forget about those giant statues, and envision how narrow that strait must have been, many thousands of years ago.

Imagine people sailing to the north, through the newly formed Channel, passing huge white cliffs on either side of the strait, entering an area cloaked in fog, an area with shoals, sandbanks, islands, rivers, and whatnot.

"Fog" you will ask? Yes, because at 8000 bp the northern branch of the Gulf Stream entering the newly formed North Sea would have been cold(er) because of the melting glaciers in Scotland and Norway. The southern branch of the Gulf Stream would have been warmer than the northern branch. They met where (the) Dogger Island(s) was (were) located. And whenever cold and warm sea currents meet, you will have fog.

I have talked about this foggy archipelago much earlier in this thread ("Hell/Niflheim").

If my interpretations of the meteorological conditions are anything right, this place, and its entrance, must have been quite scary to those ancient people.

I wish I had been a writer, lol.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Posted (edited)

I wish I had been a writer, lol.

.

Yeah, and then I could earn something.

But now someone else is earning that money.. for me.

Check out this magazine:

http://drakenberg.weebly.com/dragontree-network.html

DRAGONTREE NETWORK

Issue 1: No. 1, May 2011 - "Mythemes & Dragons"

Table of Contents

1. What Does It Mean to Shine: Feeding the Energy Body

2. Dragon Watchtowers

3. When Comets Were Dragons: From Tiamat to Tunguska

4. Did Comets Inspire the Labyrinth?

5. Book Review: Embodying Osiris

6. The Dragons of Serbia:: Faeries, Dragons & Witches Blood

And these images I posted in this thread:

3929082.jpg?593

Look at the image and the subtitle: I am a 200% sure not anyone before me connected this specific petroglyph with a comet and Doggerland:

9978713.jpg?526

Is this petroglyph a depictionof the Doggerland Comet?

:angry:

+++++++++++

EDIT:

My post 461, page 31; a year older than the article....

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=179840&st=450&p=3416909entry3416909

.

Edited by Abramelin

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At present the Strait of Dover (or "Nauw van Calais" as it is called in Dutch) is 34 km/21 miles wide.

But it opened up many, many millennia ago:

" (...) a new study by Gupta et al. (2007)[3][4] suggests that the English Channel was formed by erosion caused by two major floods. The first was about 425 000 years ago, when an ice-dammed lake in the southern North Sea overflowed and broke the Weald-Artois chalk range in a catastrophic erosion and flood event. Afterwards, the Thames and Scheldt flowed through the gap into the English Channel, but the Meuse and Rhine still flowed northwards. In a second flood about 225 000 years ago the Meuse and Rhine were ice-dammed into a lake that broke catastrophically through a high weak barrier (perhaps chalk, or an end-moraine left by the ice sheet). Both floods cut massive flood channels in the dry bed of the English Channel, somewhat like the Channeled Scablands or the Wabash river in the USA"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strait_of_Dover

But how wide would it have been around 8000 years ago? The chalk cliffs on both sides of the strait are - and most probably have been for ages - erroding quite fast.

The next is an impression (originally it had not anything to do with this strait) how it could have looked 8000 years ago:

Strait_of_Dover.jpg

Now forget about those giant statues, and envision how narrow that strait must have been, many thousands of years ago.

Imagine people sailing to the north, through the newly formed Channel, passing huge white cliffs on either side of the strait, entering an area cloaked in fog, an area with shoals, sandbanks, islands, rivers, and whatnot.

"Fog" you will ask? Yes, because at 8000 bp the northern branch of the Gulf Stream entering the newly formed North Sea would have been cold(er) because of the melting glaciers in Scotland and Norway. The southern branch of the Gulf Stream would have been warmer than the northern branch. They met where (the) Dogger Island(s) was (were) located. And whenever cold and warm sea currents meet, you will have fog.

I have talked about this foggy archipelago much earlier in this thread ("Hell/Niflheim").

If my interpretations of the meteorological conditions are anything right, this place, and its entrance, must have been quite scary to those ancient people.

I wish I had been a writer, lol.

.

The Dover Strait is still widening by about one foot a year.

http://www.beforeus.com/drowned.html

But the narrower a strait, the faster the curent running through it, and the faster the erosion caused by that same current will take place.

So when the North Sea came (again) in contact with the Channel, erosion may have occurred in many meters per year.

The Strait of Dover must have been the famous 'Pillars of Hercules' (Iman Wilkins)

http://www.historykb.com/Uwe/Forum.aspx/ancient/103/Myth-of-Io-according-to-Wilkens

My impression of that strait at around 6000 BC :

Dover_strait_ancient.jpg

Now add some dark, clouded, threatening, or foggy skies, and you will get what I am on about.

Imagine: you pass two large cliffs/'pillars' on either side of a narrow strait with your ship, and you see shoals, islands, thick fog, ruins (?), drowned forrests or stumps of trees, a faul smell like you are in hell, and all that preferrably during sunset or dusk.

Is there anyone reading all this who knows how to use Photoshop?

I don't have Photoshop, but I sure do know what kind of image I would like to create.

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* Nehalennia and Hades were both depicted with a dog at their sides.

* "Hell" was the old name for the present North Sea.

* This 'Hell was once something of a paradise

* Then it got flooded.

* The survivors of that catastrophic flood/tsunami were already in contact - sailing up the Rhine and Elbe, trading amber, seal skins, timber, tin, pemmikan, gold, whatever, to the people living around the Danube, the Balkan, and most probably with the ancestors of the Greeks. Think Homer..

Imagine this:

Some guy saw his country submerge catastrophically, his whole family drowned, everybody he was acquainted with was gone, and the whole area he grew up in was gone too.

This same guy travels up the Rhine/Elbe towards the Danube, hops on a boat, and travels to the Balkans. There he meets his clients, the people who had always bought his merchandise. He tells them this unbelievable story, that the country he and his family had lived in for many generations got flooded, and was no more. He was convinced the gods had punished his people for something wrong.

He or she would not have been the only ones; hundreds of these survivors would have shared their stories with the people they traded with.

Then, centuries later, some guy called "Honer" heard these stories, told at the camp fire.

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Look at the image and the subtitle: I am a 200% sure not anyone before me connected this specific petroglyph with a comet and Doggerland:

9978713.jpg?526

Is this petroglyph a depictionof the Doggerland Comet?

This is the image that you were talking about not being able to find, up-thread...? That's amazing to me - no exaggeration. I don't know about comets, but I can see Great Britain on the left there and continental Europe on the right an something very much like Dogger Island in the centre. If I were the excitable type I'd be saying something like "that proves memories of Doggerland extended into later eras!" or something. Do you know the approximate age of this carving?

Regarding the idea of surviving Doggerlanders telling tales to proto-Greeks or their ancestors, well, in line with my comments above, I'd consider that sort of thing to be one of the less speculative ideas on this thread. People move about, and people tell stories. I'd probably go as far as to say more likely than not, actually.

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Doggerland is a name given by archaeologists and geologists to the former landmass in the southern North Sea that connected the island of Great Britain to mainland Europe during and after the last Ice Age.Doggerland is a "lost land" that existed in the present-day North Sea, between England, the Netherlands, and Denmark. Doggerland existed towards the end of the last Ice Age, about 11,000 years ago, when glacial ice in northern Europe had melted but sea levels were still low enough that the area was not flooded as it is today. Sea levels were about 120 m (394 ft) below current levels. Other areas around the world that were made dry by these sea levels include seas around Indonesia and the Bering Strait, which was crossed by hunter-gatherers into the Americas.Doggerland is a name given by archaeologists and geologists to a former landmass in the southern North Sea that connected the island of Great Britain to mainland Europe during and after the last Ice Age. Geological surveys have suggested that Doggerland was a large area of dry land that stretched from Britain's east coast across to the present coast of the Netherlands and the western coasts of Germany and Denmark.

What are you telling us?

You didn't take the trouble to read this thread at all.

Great.

Btw, it weren't geologists who first named this submerged area "Doggerland", it was a Dutch guy called "Overwijn" (a historian of some sorts) who did, in 1941.

If you had read this thread, you'd know.

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Er...okay...?!

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What are you telling us?

You didn't take the trouble to read this thread at all.

Great.

Btw, it weren't geologists who first named this submerged area "Doggerland", it was a Dutch guy called "Overwijn" (a historian of some sorts) who did, in 1941.

If you had read this thread, you'd know.

613 Overwijn. J.F., - De strekking van het O.L.B. Onze voorvaderen: de West-Friezen van Doggerland

(Verslag van twee lezingen voor het genootschap 'Yggdrasil'). - Het Vaderland 1941, 25 Maart en 10

Apr

http://www.oeralindaboek.nl/pdf/KalmaOLBbibl.pdf

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