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Doggerland

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Some terribly boring sites about things connected with Doggerland, but I just post it so you all know scientists are not sitting around doing nothing concerning this topic.

Chapter 2

An Archaeological Resource Assessment and Research

Agenda for the Palaeolithic in the East Midlands (part of

Western Doggerland).

http://www.le.ac.uk/ulas/publications/documents/emidpal_000.pdf

==

CHAPTER NINE

A RADIOCARBON DATABASE FOR THE

MESOLITHIC AND EARLY NEOLITHIC IN

NORTHWEST EUROPE

Abstract

We have collated an extensive regional radiocarbon database for the

Mesolithic and Early Neolithic in Northwest Europe in the age range 10,000 to

4000 yrs 14C-BP (i.e. 11.7 ka calBP to 5000 calBP). The database contains more

than 4100 individual 14C-ages (each defined by its specific laboratory code), and

which are derived from c. 1000 different archaeological sites. The database is fully

(95%) georeferenced and covers the countries Belgium, Denmark, England/Wales,

Ireland, the Netherlands, and Scotland.

http://biblio.ugent.be/input/download?func=downloadFile&fileOId=841758

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And let's not forget about what I posted in the thread about the "Oera Linda Book" a couple of times.

The next is my translation of a part of the epic poem by Willem van Haren, 1741.

(the poem is about the exploits of the mythical founder of Friesland: Friso)

And, with Argentorix, through narrow currents

that lead to the cold sees of the feroceous Scyths

and separate the British Empire of great Europe

(T)Here was an old rumour, that Father Ocean,

tired of going along Thule's coast to the Northern Throne,

to steer icy sees to the coasts of the Samojeds,

ordered a meeting of the Western Rivers.

The Guadalquivir, who sprays the Wall of Seville,

and flows through a fertile land and rich pastures;

The silver Guadiana, carried on Swans's down;

The rich Tagus, carried on a golden wagon,

with a regal gesture, and royal panache;

The Douro, crowned with Rose and Stock Gillyflower,

and keeping a garland of flowers in his hands;

The boasting Garonne in the middle of her bonds;

The Loire, which, though tall of stature,

shares fame the least;

The Seine, which, by adorning itself with laurels

covets the dominion of all Rivers;

And an endless number of lesser watergods;

Called on Triton's horn in front of Amfrites' throne.

There the Ocean made them line up in order,

And, raising his waves a 1000 feet high,

attacked on the land that attached the Albion beach

to wealthy Europe; and, pushing with his hand,

The Mountains from their bases, the Rocks from their footings,

He gave the captured (?) lands to the angry mob [= the rivers]

Each took from this burden a rock or a hill along,

And grinded it to gravel, and spread them to the Sea.

King Ocean travelled swiftly along smooth sands,

From the fizzing waters to the Alocean beaches:

And from that time on Albion became an Empire

Invincible for foreign powers.

Page 411:

http://www.dbnl.org/tekst/hare004geva01_01/hare004geva01_01.pdf

According to the poem, Argentorix is the son of Coïlus, King of the Brittons. He met Friso on the Isle of Wight, and begged him for help. He shows Friso the way to the Land of the Alans = Frisia.

Location of Thule/Thyle (for this poem that is):

Thule (pronounced /ˈθuːliː/ or ˈθjuːli;[1][2][3] from Greek Θούλη, Thoulē), also spelled Thula, Thila, or Thyïlea, is, in classical European literature and maps, a region in the far north. Though often considered to be an island in antiquity, modern interpretations of what was meant by Thule often identify it as Norway.[2][4] Other interpretations include the Orkney Islands, Shetland Islands, and Scandinavia. In the Late Middle Ages and Renaissance, Thule was often identified as Iceland or Greenland.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thule

The "Alocean beachess":

Above the Cimbrian peninsula there are three other islands which are called the Alociae islands

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Gazetteer/Periods/Roman/_Texts/Ptolemy/2/10/text.html

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Having just browsed through this thread in the last day or two, I have to say it's a fascinating topic and a fascinating idea, but it seems to be speculation built upon speculation and drawing some dubious conclusions from alleged linguistic cognates.

Anyway, I thought I'd just mentioned something. Several times the idea of an ancient Irish legend of a flood has been mentioned as support for a legend based upon Doggerland being flooded.

The flood mentioned in ancient Irish legends is almost certainly a later addition by Christians to make the old legend more acceptable to Christianity. Characters were added or altered to make them descendants of Noah (what would mention of Noah be doing in ancient Irish legends otherwise?). This was not uncommon. The story of Conor Mac Nessa, kind of Ulster during the time of the legends of Cu Chulainn and the Red Branch Knights was altered to insert a story about him becoming so enraged about hearing about the crucifixion of a good man (Jesus) that he died of rage, and St. Patrick was shoehorned into the legend of Oisin and Tir na Nog. So you can't really use the flood in ancient Irish mythology as evidence of anything other than the myths have been altered deliberately to include elements from other religions/myths.

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Having just browsed through this thread in the last day or two, I have to say it's a fascinating topic and a fascinating idea, but it seems to be speculation built upon speculation and drawing some dubious conclusions from alleged linguistic cognates.

Anyway, I thought I'd just mentioned something. Several times the idea of an ancient Irish legend of a flood has been mentioned as support for a legend based upon Doggerland being flooded.

The flood mentioned in ancient Irish legends is almost certainly a later addition by Christians to make the old legend more acceptable to Christianity. Characters were added or altered to make them descendants of Noah (what would mention of Noah be doing in ancient Irish legends otherwise?). This was not uncommon. The story of Conor Mac Nessa, kind of Ulster during the time of the legends of Cu Chulainn and the Red Branch Knights was altered to insert a story about him becoming so enraged about hearing about the crucifixion of a good man (Jesus) that he died of rage, and St. Patrick was shoehorned into the legend of Oisin and Tir na Nog. So you can't really use the flood in ancient Irish mythology as evidence of anything other than the myths have been altered deliberately to include elements from other religions/myths.

Hi Archimedes,

I am very aware of my speculations, and that's all they are.

And about the Irish legends: it was Cormac (UM member) who already adviced me (in this thread and/or in the Oera Linda thread) to better stay away from them for reasons similar to the ones you mentioned.

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Fair enough. I skimmed through this thread quickly so may have missed it already being mentioned.

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Fair enough. I skimmed through this thread quickly so may have missed it already being mentioned.

I do hope you noticed I never mentioned aliens, Annunaki, or magic crystals, or any other far-out crap.

I have only played with the available scientific information, and added to that what I could squeeze out of ancient myths.

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Oh sure.

I don't buy it at all myself, but it's a fascinating and not unbelievable hypothesis which is why I was interested enough to actually read through the whole thread.

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I'd like to add that the part of Willem van Haren's poem that I translated is not proof people in the 18th century knew about 8500 years old Doggerland, it was just their idea how England got separated from the European mainland.

Many thought it was the Cimbrian Flood that caused it, but that one happend just a few centuries BC and sent the Cimbrians from Denmark on the move to the south.

Another thing they thought it happened catastrophically and from where the disaster must have come, is because throughout the ages people in the Netherlands dug up ancient tree trunks all lying in the same direction: roots to the north-west, crowns to the south-east (the socalled "boomstorting" or "falling of trees").

http://www.dbnl.org/tekst/woud018bata01_01/woud018bata01_01_0004.php

.

Edited by Abramelin

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SUBMERGED FORESTS

by Clement Reid, 1913.

From the "SUMMARY":

In this connexion it might be worth while systematically

to dredge the Dogger Bank, in order to

see whether any implements made by man can be

found there. The alluvial deposits are there so free

from stones that if any at all are found in them they

may probably show human workmanship. The Dogger

Bank may have remained an island long after great

part of the bed of the North Sea had been submerged,

for the Bank now forms a submerged plateau. It

may even have lasted into fairly recent times, the

final destruction of the island being due to the

planing away of the upper part of the soft alluvial

strata through the attacks of the sea and of boring

molluscs.

http://www.archive.org/details/submergedforest00reid

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As I have seen nothing about copyright concerning this book from 1913, and because I learned there are some who have problems downloading from the site I linked to in my former post, I will post the whole chapter about the Dogger Bank here.

It gives an excellent impression of the geology, flora and fauna of Doggerland.

===========

CHAPTER IV

THE DOGGER BANK

For the last 50 years it has been known to geologists

that the bed of the North Sea yields numerous

bones of large land animals, belonging in great part

to extinct species. These were first obtained by

oyster-dredgers, and later by trawlers. Fortunately

a good collection of them was secured by the British

Museum, wliere it has been carefully studied by

William Davies, The bones came from two localities.

One of them, close to the Norfolk coast off Happisburgh,

yielded mainly teeth of Elephas meridionalis,

and its fossils were evidently derived from the Pliocene

Cromer Forest bed, which in that neighbourhood is

rapidly being destroyed by the sea. This need not

now detain us.

The other locality is far more extraordinary. In

the middle of the North Sea lies the extensive shoal

known as the Dogger Bank, about 60 or 70 miles

from the nearest land. This shoal forms a wide

irregular plateau having an area nearly as big as

Denmark. Over it for the most part the sea has

a depth of only 50 or 60 feet; all round its edge

it slopes somewhat abruptly into deeper water, about

150 feet in the south, east, and west, but much deeper

on the north. This peculiar bank has been explained

as an eastward submerged continuation of the Oolite

escarpment of Yorkshire ; or, alternatively, as a mere

shoal accumulated through the -effects of some tidal

eddy ; but neither of these explanations will hold, for

Oolitic rocks do not occur there, and the bank has a

core quite unlike the sand of the North Sea.

When trawlers first visited the Dogger Bank its

surface seems to have been strewn with large bones

of land animals and loose masses of peat, known to

the fishermen as "moorlog," and there were also many

erratic blocks in the neighbourhood. As all this

refuse did much damage to the trawls, and bruised

the fish, the erratics and bones were thrown into

deeper water, and the large cakes of moorlog were

broken in pieces. A few of the erratics and some of

the bones were however brought to Yarmouth as

curiosities. Now the whole surface of the Dogger

Bank has been gone over again and again by the

trawlers, and very few of the fossil bones are found;

unfortunately no record seems to iiave been kept as

to the exact place where these bones were trawled.

The species found were :

Ursus (bear)

Canis lupus (wolf)

Hyaena spelaea (hyaena)

Cervus megaceros (Irish elk)

Cervus megaceros (Irish elk) rhinoceros)

,, tarandus (reindeer)

,, elaphus (red-deer)

,, a fourth species

Bos primigenius (wild ox)

Bison priscus (bison)

Equus caballus (horse)

Rhinoceros tichorhinus (woolly rhinoceros)

Elephas primigenius (mammoth)

Castor fiber (beaver)

Trichechus rosmarus (walrus)

Though mammalian bones are now so seldom

found, whenever the 'sand-banks shift slightly, as they

tend to do under the influence of tides and currents,

the edges of the submerged plateau are laid bare,

exposing submarine ledges of moorlog, which still

yield a continuous supply of this material. Messrs.

Whitehead and Goodchild have recently published an

excellent account of it, having obtained from the

trawlers numerous slabs of the peculiar peaty deposit,

with particulars as to the latitude and longitude in

which the specimens were dredged. Mrs Reid and I

have to thank the authors for an opportunity of

examining samples of the material, which has yielded

most interesting evidence as to the physical history,

botany, and climatic conditions of this sunken land.

The following account is mainly taken from their

paper and our appendix to it.

We are still without information as to the exact

positions of the submarine ledges and cliffs of peat

from which the masses have been torn; but there

seems little doubt that some of them were actually

torn off by the trawl. One block sent to me was full

of recently dead half-grown Pholas parva, all of one

age, and must evidently haye been torn off the solid

ledge. Pholas never makes its home in loose blocks.

We unfortunately know very little about the natural

history of the boring mollusca and their length of life.

If, as I think, this species takes two years to reach

full growth, then it is evident that the ledge of moorlog

full of half-grown specimens must have been

exposed to the sea continuously for one year, but not

for longer. It ought also perliaps to tell us the depth

of water from which the mass was torn ; but nothing

is known as to the depth to which Pholas may extend

—it has the reputation of occurring between tidemarks

or just below, but it may extend downwards

wherever there is a submarine cliff.

Though we are still unable to locate exactly these

submarine ledges or fix their depth below the sea, the

blocks of moorlog are so widely distributed around

the Dogger Bank, and have been dredged in such

large masses, that it seems clear that a "submerged

forest" forms part of the core of the bank. As nothing

else approaching to a solid stratum appears to be

dredged over this shoal, we may assume that the

moorlog forms a sort of cap or cornice at a depth of

about 10 fathoms, overlying loose sandy strata, and

perhaps boulder clay, which extend downward to

another 10 fatlioms, or 120 feet altogether. Unfortunately

we cannot say from what deposit the large

bones of extinct animals were washed ; they may come

from the sands below the moorlog, but it is quite as

probable that the Pleistocene deposits formed islands

in the ancient fen—as they do now in East Anglia,

Holderness, and Holland.

More than one submerged forest may be present

on the Dogger Bank. The masses of moorlog are

usually dredged on the slopes at a depth of 22 or 23

fathoms ; but at the south-west end it occurs on the top

as well as on the slope, the sea-bottom on which the

moorlog is found consisting of fine grey sand, probably

an estuarine silt connected with the submerged forest,

for the North Sea sand is commonly coarse and gritty.

With regard to the moorlog itself and its contents,

it is possible that some of the mammals in the list,

such as the reindeer, beaver, and walrus, may belong

to this upper deposit; but we have no means of distinguishing

them, as the bones were all found loose

and free from the matrix. The insects and plants

were all obtained from slabs of this peat.

The dredged cakes of peat handed to us for examination

came from different parts of the bank ; but

they were all very similar in character, and showed

only the slight differences found in different parts of

the same fen. The bed is essentially a fen-deposit of

purely organic origin, with little trace of inorganic

mud. It is fissile and very luird when dry, and in it

are scaltered a certain number of fairly well-preserved

seeds, principally belonging to the bog-bean. Other

recognisable plant-remains are not abundant. They

consist of rare willow-leaves, fragments of birch-wood

and bark, pieces of the scalariform tissue and sporangia

of a fern, and moss, and, curiously enough, of groups

of stamens of willow-herb with well-preserved pollengrains,

though the whole of the rest of the plant to

which they belonged had decayed.

The material is exceptionally tough, and is very

difficult to disintegrate. In order to remove the

structureless humus which composed the greater part

of the peat, we found it necessary to break it into

thin flakes and boil it in a strong soda solution for

three or four days. Afterwards the material was

passed through a sieve, the fine flocculent parts being

washed away by a stream of water, the undecomposed

plant remains being left behind in a state for examination.

These remains were mixed with a large amount

of shreds of cuticle, etc., but recognisable leaves were

not found in the washed material.

The general result of our examination is to suggest

that the deposit comes from the middle of some vast

fen, so far from rising land that all terrigenous material

has been strained out of the peaty water. The vegetation,

as far as we have yet seen, consists exclusively

of swamp species, with no admixture of hard-seeded

edible fruits, usually so Avidely distributed by birds,

and no wind-borne composites. The sea was probably

some distance away, as there is little sign of brackisliwater

plants, or eveu of plants which usually occur

within reach of an occasional tide ; one piece however

yielded seeds of Ruppia, The climate to which

the plants point may be described as northei-n. The

white-birch, sallow and hazel were the only trees;

the alder is absent. All the plants have a high

northern range, and one, the dwarf Arctic-birch, is

never found at sea-level in latitudes as far south as

the Dogger Bank (except very rarely in the Baltic

provinces of Germany).

The plants already found are :

Ranunculus Lingua,

Betula alba

Gastalia alba,

Betula nana

Cochlearia sp.,

Corylus Avellana

Lychnis Flos-cuculi,

Salix repens

Arenaria trinervia,

Salix aurita

Spiraea Ulmaria,

Sparganium simplex

Rubus frutieosus,

Alisma Plantago

Epilobium sp.,

Potamogeton natans

Galium sp.,

Ruppia rostellata

Valeriana officinalis,

Scirpus sp.

Menyantties trifoliata,

Carex sp.

Lycopus europaeus,

Phragmites communis,

Atriplex patula

Among the nine species of beetle determined by

Mr G. C. Champion it is noticeable that two belong

to sandy places. This suggests that the fen may have

had its seaward edge protected by a belt of sand-dunes,

just as the coast of Holland is at the present day.

This submerged forest in the middle of the North

Sea has been described fully, for it raises a host of

interesting questions, that require much more research

before we can answer them. A sunken land-surface

60 feet and more below the sea at high-tide corresponds

very closely with the lowest of the submerged forests

met with in our dock-excavations. But if another bed

of peat occurs at a depth of 130 or 140 feet at the

Dogger Bank, this would be far below the level of any

recently sunk land-surface yet recognised in Britain.

Also, if the slabs of very modern-looking peat, containing

only plants and insects still living in Britain, come

from such a depth, out of what older deposit can the

Pleistocene mammals, such as elephant, rhinoceros,

and hyaena, have been washed?

These questions cannot be answered conclusively

without scientific dredging, to fix the exact positions

and depths of the outcrops of moorlog. When we

remember also that beneath a submerged forest at

about the depth of the Dogger Bank there was found

at Tilbury, in the Thames Valley, a human skeleton;

and that both human remains and stone implements

have been discovered in similar deposits elsewhere, we

can point to the Dogger Bank as an excellent field

for scientific exploration.

The Dogger Bank once formed the northern edge

of a great alluvial plain, occupying what is now the

southern half of the North Sea, and stretching across

to Holland and Denmark. If we go beyond the

Dogger Bank and seek for answers to these questions

on the further shore, we find moorlog washed up

abundantly on the coasts of both Holland and Denmark,

and it has evidently been torn off submerged ledges

like those of the Bank. Numerous borings in Holland

give us still further information, for they show that

beneath the wide alluvial plain, which lies close to the

level of the sea, there exists a considerable thickness

of modern strata. At Amsterdam, for instance, two

beds of peat are met with well below the sea-level, the

upper occurring at about the level of low-tide, the

lower at a depth of about .50 or 60 feet below meantide.

That is to say, the lowest submerged landsurface

is found in Holland at just about the same

depth as it occurs in England, and probably on the

Dogger Bank also.

Below this submerged land-surface at Amsterdam

are found marine clays and sands, which seem to

show that the lowest " continental deposit," as it is

called by Dutch geologists, spread seaward over the

silted-up bed of the North Sea ; but no buried landsurfaces

have yet been found below the 60-foot level

anywhere in Holland.

This appearance of two distinct and thick peatbeds,

underlain, separated, and overlaid by marine

deposits, seems to characterise great part of the

Dutch plain. It points to a long period of subsidence,

broken by two intervals of stationary sealevel,

when peat-mosses flourished and spread far and

wide over the flat, interspersed with shallow lakes,

like the Norfolk broads.

The enclosed and almost tideless Baltic apparently

tells the same story, for at Rostock at its southern

end, a submerged peat-bed has been met with at a

depth of 46 feet.

On passing northward into Scandinavia we enter

an area in which, as in Scotland, recent changes in

sea-level have been complicated by tilting, so that

ancient beach-lines no longer correspond in elevation

at difterent places. The deformation has been so

great that it is impossible to trace the submerged

forests ; they may be represented in the north by

the raised beaches, which in Norway and Sweden, as

in Scotland and the north of Ireland, seem to belong

to a far more recent period than the raised beaches

of the south of England. It seems useless to attempt

to continue our researches on submerged forests further

in this direction, especially as during the latest

stages, when we know England was sinking, Gothland

appears to have been slowly rising. Those who wish

to learn about the changes that took place in the

south of Sweden should refer to the recent monograph

by Dr Munthe.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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First off...Mr. Abramelin, I love the stationary quote. (is a huge fan of the Trismegistus continuum)

I have read this thread, rather quickly, and hope that these comments are not redundant (surely the main one is too abstract).

This recent bit about Deruelle and the description of submerged discoveries is fascinating. Although I am skeptical about some of the larger Pleistocene mammal species purported to have been found.

Do we accept that Heligoland, geologically distinct by comparison to it's neighbors in the north sea, enters into this concept as a possible remnant of the Northland landmass?

If so...I couldn't help but get chills when I learned that Werner Heisenberg first formulated the equation underlying his picture of quantum mechanics (i.e. Uncertainty Principle) while on Heligoland in the 1920s.

As if Douglass Adams were laughing at me from beyond the grave. Maybe Heisenberg was inspired by the ghosts of Atlantis...WoooOOOoooOooo ;-)

I would love to hear any theories you have on low sea level land masses along the north coast of the US and Greenland.

Stephen Baxter's "Stone Spring" (- which ultimately lead me to this thread - google search "Etxelur Map" -) is a really fun read...if you need some less scholarly, but still topical fiction in your diet.

In the story, one of the subtle elements is a description of identical stone carvings (concentric circles with a vertical "stem") existing in Northland/Doggerland and the eastern shore of the North American Continent.

This is very fictional, he even goes so far as to assert that Clovis culture refugees had contact with seafaring Northlanders in the 4000 BCs.

However, It makes me wonder if the same effects that allowed Doggerland to flourish (particularly the warm sea currents and low sea) could have sustained more hominids along the coasts of the north Atlantic and modern Canada.

I would also love to see a connection between the enthno-linguistic units in Gaul and Spain (basque) and the final integration/extinction of the Neanderthals. There is already some speculation that red hair is a leftover of their genetic influence. Could that branch of Language have been influenced by the language of a totally separate hominid species?

This has been a wonderful discussion (forgiving some drama) and I am grateful to have found it. I wish Sylvain Tristan and Alan Butler were in on this thread!

Best,

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First off...Mr. Abramelin, I love the stationary quote. (is a huge fan of the Trismegistus continuum)

I have read this thread, rather quickly, and hope that these comments are not redundant (surely the main one is too abstract).

This recent bit about Deruelle and the description of submerged discoveries is fascinating. Although I am skeptical about some of the larger Pleistocene mammal species purported to have been found.

Do we accept that Heligoland, geologically distinct by comparison to it's neighbors in the north sea, enters into this concept as a possible remnant of the Northland landmass?

If so...I couldn't help but get chills when I learned that Werner Heisenberg first formulated the equation underlying his picture of quantum mechanics (i.e. Uncertainty Principle) while on Heligoland in the 1920s.

As if Douglass Adams were laughing at me from beyond the grave. Maybe Heisenberg was inspired by the ghosts of Atlantis...WoooOOOoooOooo ;-)

I would love to hear any theories you have on low sea level land masses along the north coast of the US and Greenland.

Stephen Baxter's "Stone Spring" (- which ultimately lead me to this thread - google search "Etxelur Map" -) is a really fun read...if you need some less scholarly, but still topical fiction in your diet.

In the story, one of the subtle elements is a description of identical stone carvings (concentric circles with a vertical "stem") existing in Northland/Doggerland and the eastern shore of the North American Continent.

This is very fictional, he even goes so far as to assert that Clovis culture refugees had contact with seafaring Northlanders in the 4000 BCs.

However, It makes me wonder if the same effects that allowed Doggerland to flourish (particularly the warm sea currents and low sea) could have sustained more hominids along the coasts of the north Atlantic and modern Canada.

I would also love to see a connection between the enthno-linguistic units in Gaul and Spain (basque) and the final integration/extinction of the Neanderthals. There is already some speculation that red hair is a leftover of their genetic influence. Could that branch of Language have been influenced by the language of a totally separate hominid species?

This has been a wonderful discussion (forgiving some drama) and I am grateful to have found it. I wish Sylvain Tristan and Alan Butler were in on this thread!

Best,

Hi PostAD, and as one who has become part of the furniture of this house, I welcome you to this site.

Oh, and read that 'stationary quote' carefully... I changed it slightly only recently.

Well, I am glad you took the trouble of reading through this thread; that's kind of rare for newbies.

You said you wished Sylvain Tristan and Alan Butler were in on this thread, but I wish Tristan had done what he said he would do: archeological research at the Dogger Bank. But maybe he wasn't able to raise enough funds.

Anyway, if you have any great thoughts or ideas concerning this topic, don't hesitate to post them.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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On this page I talked about the "White Island of the Dead" or the "White Bank":

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=179840&st=705&p=4003124entry4003124

White_Bank.jpg

Not that it is proof it was above sealevel in historical times, but maybe the legend about it was around for far longer. And today I found a centuries old map depicting an island of considerable size north of Friesland/Frisia (the island depicted in green):

Frisia_Island.jpg

1493 Hartman Schedel (publisher)- Hieronymus Munzer (editor)- Michael Wolgemut (engraver): "Europa," from the "Nuremberg Chronicle,"

Full size here:

http://www.lithuanianmaps.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/images/1493_Schedel-Munzer-Wolgemut_-Europa.14370658_large.jpg

Source:

http://www.lithuanianmaps.com/up_to_the_15th_century_to_1500_lithuanian_area_maps

I realize the proportions of about anything on that map - based on Ptolemy - are way off, but still I wonder what island that could have been.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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So I'd like to ask people knowledgable about ancient Scandinavian and/or Celtic and/or Germanic mythology if there is indeed a myth/legend that says anything about land submerging beneath the waves.

I'm not reading through 51 pages tonight :P But I can at least partly answer this. I hope...

There are myths about Annwn, which was supposed to be some hidden island off the coast of Wales. A bit out of the way I know, but presumably if people fled North/West then they would take their beliefs with them. I'm sure there are myths pertaining to some mirror-like world inhabited by faeries or suchlike hidden just beneath the waves. Although I don't immediately have theb ook to hand (it's currently elsewhere) I'm sure something like this was not only written, but actually illustrated, in the book Faeries by Brian Froud and Alan Lee. it's a book on British, essentially Celtic and Anglo-Saxon, critters, beasties and beliefs.

I'll have to dig out my books on the subject matter when I can get to them, but I can have a wee search around for similar legends.

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I'm not reading through 51 pages tonight :P But I can at least partly answer this. I hope...

There are myths about Annwn, which was supposed to be some hidden island off the coast of Wales. A bit out of the way I know, but presumably if people fled North/West then they would take their beliefs with them. I'm sure there are myths pertaining to some mirror-like world inhabited by faeries or suchlike hidden just beneath the waves. Although I don't immediately have theb ook to hand (it's currently elsewhere) I'm sure something like this was not only written, but actually illustrated, in the book Faeries by Brian Froud and Alan Lee. it's a book on British, essentially Celtic and Anglo-Saxon, critters, beasties and beliefs.

I'll have to dig out my books on the subject matter when I can get to them, but I can have a wee search around for similar legends.

Hi Urisk, I love the 'rook/plague mask', heh.

But I think you meant to say "if people fled South/West", because that is the direction people would flee to from Doggerland to Wales, or from it's last remnant, Dogger Island.

I have a book written by Katherine Briggs, "A Dictionary of Fairies", and a book by Anne Ross, "Pagan Celtic Britain", Lady Augusta Gregory's "Gods and Fighting Men - The Story of the Tuatha de Danaan and of the Fianna of Ireland", and about 20 other books about the Celts and their legends and myths in Britain and Ireland, but nothing hinting to anything in the North Sea.

Take your time, and I am curious about what you are able to dig up.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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**double post**

.

Edited by Abramelin

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You've probably seen all the sites but I did come across this one:

Doggerland and Cantre’r Gwaelod – The Way We Were,

But Who Were We and Who Are We Now?

I’ve not looked at sufficient sea bed maps to work out exactly how much extra land was made available by these two phenomena but certain facts are clear. You could walk from the West coast of Ireland overland to Denmark and Sweden. There was no Irish Sea or North Sea south of a line from Denmark to the East Riding. The Thames, as was, joined the Seine somewhere near Dover and flowed South towards the Bay of Biscay. Between Wales and Ireland later became “Cantre’r Gwaelod” in the Mabinogion, Welsh folk myth, and the “Southern North Sea” was a huge expanse now termed “Doggerland”, an area roughly equal to the present UK land mass. Elsewhere, where there is now coastline, imagine the sea level being nearly four hundred feet lower – and on the south coast probably more than that (See-saw effect).

http://fivetrilliontrees.wordpress.com/2011/09/09/the-way-we-were-%E2%80%93-doggerland-ice-age-and-celts/

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Posted (edited)

It seems to me the people and culture at the ancient British site of Star Carr may have been also a kind of 'Doggerlander' - as I read this article, the red antler tips indicated a connection as they also dredged these up (antler tips) at the Doggerland site.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Carr

Also where Star Carr is situated seems very likely it would have been connected geographically to Doggerland or at least very near to it. Maybe more investigations around Star Carr will give more answers about the people of Doggerland.

One interesting thing is they actually seem to have made head-dresses out of the red antler skull, with the antlers intact.

Edited by The Puzzler

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It seems to me the people and culture at the ancient British site of Star Carr may have been also a kind of 'Doggerlander' - as I read this article, the red antler tips indicated a connection as they also dredged these up (antler tips) at the Doggerland site.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Carr

Also where Star Carr is situated seems very likely it would have been connected geographically to Doggerland or at least very near to it. Maybe more investigations around Star Carr will give more answers about the people of Doggerland.

One interesting thing is they actually seem to have made head-dresses out of the red antler skull, with the antlers intact.

In an article I quoted from in this thread Doggerland is even mentioned in connection with the Star Car site.

But what I would really love to see is that a Robert Ballard would feel challenged to search for remnants of submerged settlements in the North Sea. Much like he has done in the Black Sea, years ago.

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Posted (edited)

Yeah, I didn't get the date from a scientific paper, and now I know I must have confused it with the date of an early eruption of Mt. Vesuvius in the 7th millenium BC.

But in the next links they say its 7000 +/- 1000 years, lol. A nice big margin..

http://www.search.co...noes_in_Germany

http://en.wikipedia....noes_in_Germany

Oh, and I never suggested any erupting volcano may have caused Doggerland to submerge or something. The reason I started talking about the Laacher See eruption 13,000 years ago, was just because of the effect of its ash: if I have to believe what was said, then people had to move far away from that area because all the food (plants/animals) and water was spoiled.

So my guess was - and again nothing more than that - that people fled into the direction of Doggerland.

=

I still think that a spiralling comet appearing in the night skies (and maybe even followed by an impact in the North Sea) should have been an impressive and scary sight. But of course, then it must have been much closer to the earth than Hale-Bopp ever was. And that is what I said in a former post: IF such a comet appeared, then it must have been huge or very close to earth to be visible with the naked eye.

I only mentioned Hale-Bopp because it actually created spirals; to be honest, I had never heard of that or spiralling comets in general.

Now back to your idea that the petroglyphs could as well have been inspired by a volcanic eruption. Can you explain how that would create concentric circles or spirals in the sky, and visible in many countries?

I posted the Hale-Bopp comet just to show that such spiralling comets exist, and I also posted a scientific paper explaining the how and why of such comets. Do you have a photo of an erupting volcano giving rise to the same visual effect??

In this thread I have talked quite a lot about a 'spiralling comet' causing the Storegga Slide and subsequent tsunami that flooded Doggerland, a spiralling comet that may have been depicted on stone as socalled 'cup and circle' petroglyphs or even labyrinths.

Well, what's also quite remarkable is that the Laacher See eruption in Germany, 12900 years ago, coincided with the possible impact of a comet (thanks Waspie Dwarf):

New evidence supporting theory of extraterrestrial impact found

June 11, 2012

These new data are the latest to strongly support the controversial Younger Dryas Boundary (YDB) hypothesis, which proposes that a cosmic impact occurred 12,900 years ago at the onset of an unusual cold climatic period called the Younger Dryas. This episode occurred at or close to the time of major extinction of the North American megafauna, including mammoths and giant ground sloths; and the disappearance of the prehistoric and widely distributed Clovis culture. The researchers' findings appear today in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

http://phys.org/news...ial-impact.html

Btw, I do know this is thousands of years before the Storegga Slide.

++++++++++

EDIT:

The caldera was formed after the Laacher See eruption dated to 12,900 years ago. The remaining crust collapsed into the empty magma chamber below, probably two or three days after the eruption. An estimated 6 km³ of magma was erupted, producing around 16 km³ of tephra. This massive eruption thus had a Volcanic Explosivity Index (VEI) of 6, and was larger than the 1991 eruption of Mount Pinatubo (Philippines) which also had a VEI of 6, approximately 10 km3 (2.4 cu mi).

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Laacher_See

.

Edited by Abramelin

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The next has been posted like 4 times in several threads. Apparently the search tool of this site is malfunctioning so I will add it here too:

Some reporter woke up late, and wrote an article about a 'new' discovery

'Britain's Atlantis' found at bottom of North sea - a huge undersea world swallowed by the sea in 6500BC

Divers have found traces of ancient land swallowed by waves 8500 years ago

Doggerland once stretched from Scotland to Denmark

Rivers seen underwater by seismic scans

Britain was not an island - and area under North Sea was roamed by mammoths and other giant animals

Described as the 'real heartland' of Europe

Had population of tens of thousands - but devastated by sea level rises

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2167731/Britains-Atlantis-North-sea--huge-undersea-kingdom-swamped-tsunami-5-500-years-ago.html#ixzz1zrMsxQqD

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Posted (edited)

And I know it is a long thread, so I wil add a summary I posted in May 2010. All in all it will looke like a scrypt for a good movie (and yes, some points may be a bit too far into la-la-land, but hey, what Sitchin/Blavatsky/Von Däniken could do, I can too. And I did not even make up anything).

=====

-1- Doggerland was a large stretch of land that became inhabited soon after the end of the last ice age, and became a good place for humans to live in, after a couple of thousand years (lets say from 8500 - 6100 BC)

-2- The culture of Doggerland was part of the Maglemosian culture (ca. 9500 BCE–6000) BCE) that existed in Northern Europe (from Britain to the Baltic)

-3- They were very probably seafarers

-4- The language spoken by the ancient Doggerlanders may have been (proto)-Finno-Ugric

-5- Doggerland got flooded and whiped from the map by a giant tsunami at around 6100 BC (the Storegga Slide). At 6100 BC -before it got hit by the Storegga tsunami - all that was left of Doggerland was an island the size of Ireland

-6- Those who survived the deluge (by being at a safe enough distance, or surfing the hell out of there by riding the tsunami, lol) fled to Scotland, England, Belgium, Netherlands, Germany, Denmark, Norway and Sweden.

-7- There are scientific clues (linguistic and genetic) that Doggerland was some sort of original homeland to many peoples now living at the borders of the North Sea

-8- It's possible (is it??) that the ancient Picts were the last remnants of the Doggerlanders who had survived the deluge. Maybe a relation with the Fomorians in the oldest Irish legends

-9- No idea at all, but maybe Nehalennia was the name of an ancient seagoddess worshipped long before the existence of Celtic and Germanic tribes at the coasts of the North Sea and maybe they - Celts and Germans - took over the worship (using slightly altered names, like "Elen", "Holle", "Hel", "Hulda" and so on. Maybe these Celtic and Germanic tribes were nothing but the offspring of these Doggerlanders, and maybe a mix of these Doggerlanders with people who came later to north-western Europe

-10- The Germanic name "Hel" or Celtic "Hal" (and lots of similar names) are the names of the old North Sea. There are even pilgrim roads through Germany and the Netherlands that are called "Hellweg", literally, "Road to Hell", Hell being the old name of the North Sea before the Christians stole it.

Over time the name Hell became synonym for everything evil. Maybe "hell" was connected to the original name of Doggerland, in some proto -IE or proto Finno Ugric language.

-11- Doggerland may have been the place of origin of the 'white people' (god knows why, but some geneticists believe this to be true)

-12- The Oera Linda Book, a proven hoax btw, may have used ancient (and unknown Frisian or other) legends as a source. Btw, the Frisians are genetically distinct from other people living around the North Sea, and they were there, very probably millenia ago. And they builded clay/stone mounts to live on, whole villages were on those 'terps'.

-13- (I almost forgot) Some think that ancient seafarers (from the western Mediterreanean) depicted the remnants of Doggerland in petroglyphs in present Portugal ( Aboboreira/ "How the Sungod reached America") as a dangerous area in the North Sea, an area to avoid. But that must have been after Doggerland sank beneath the waves, and only left a dangerous sand bank ("Doggers Bank")

-14- A guess: are the present Frisians the descendants of those Doggerlanders??? And did their ancestors indeed sail the seas and oceans back then, and did they influence the cultures of the countries they landed upon/in (I dont know the right English word for it)??

-15- If Doggerland was the homeland of white people, and if it is true that they fled it when they saw it being submerged, what did they do?? Flee as far as they could? Tell other people they met on their voyages - being seafarers - about what had happened to them or their kin??

-16- Was Doggerland "Hyperborea"? If the surivors of that deluge fled to everywhere, on ship or on land, crossing Europe, they may have met the ancestors of Homer and told them their story. They had already established the amber routes across Europe...

-17- Were they the ones who started the Megalithic culture across western Europe? And if so, why??

-18- Hmmmm......maybe the Celts (of Ireland, Scotland and Wales) had a name for Doggerland ( a name they would much later use for Scandinavia and/or North West Germany), and that name would be "Lochlan" (and lots of different spellings).

-19- Stonehenge may have been a 'healing' culture, and may also have been a sacred burial ground for the Doggerlanders (- they found postholes dating from 8000 BC - )

-20- "Lochlan", an Irish Gaelic word for 'Land of Lakes' is an appropriate word for Doggerland, because scientists have found out Doggerland was a land of rivers, marshes, woodlands, and lakes.

-21- Lochlan/Doggerland may have been the place of origin of the Fo®morians and/or Cuithne, and/or Tuatha De Danann as described in ancient Irish legends

-22- At present the Scots have the following names for the North Sea :

Muir Lochlainn = North Sea

Mhuir a Tuath = North Sea

-23- Heh, maybe good ol'Tolkien dreamt about its destruction by a 'giant, silent Wave' (genetic memory, or something. Well, it earned him a lot of fame and money, right?

-24- Did ancient Native Americans travel to Doggerland along the Gulf Stream ( think "Red Paint People/Maritime Archaic")? Were they the 'dark haired, dark skinned' Fomorians? You tell me... (there are reports dating from Roman times up to just a couple of centuries ago of Inuit arriving in Scotland, Ireland and Holland in their canoes).

-25- There are those who say that Doggerland may have existed long after the Storegga Slide because it's inhabitants build dikes to protect them (Deruelle).

-26- Juergen Spanuth published a book (1953) about his theory that Atlantis was located in the North, and that Atlantis City was nothing but Helgoland. I don't agree with his theory, but he used finds on the bottom of the sea, west of Denmark.

-27- The Megalithic Culture of western Europe may have originated in Doggerland; these people built huge structures using tree trunks; these structures were destroyed by the Storegga Slide; after that they sailed out to the countries they already knew of, and started building using a more durable material: stone.

-28- Submerged megalithic structures have been found òn the bottom of the sea, off the coasts of Orkney.

-29- Doggerlanders were fishers and seafarers, and they may have sailed up the Elbe river into the center of Europe, and thus influencing much of the European culture with their stories and myths.

-29- Volcanoes erupting in the Eifel region of Germany, around 13,000 BC, may have forced people to flee to the north west of that region: Doggerland (and of course the countries near Doggerland. A large area was made uninhabitable for ages across a large stretch of Europe: northern France, west and north Germany. Food was poisened, water was undrinkable, people died.

-30- Long after Doggerland finally sank beneath the waves, people remembered it. They even gave offerings to the sea (the North Sea) in the form of stone age axes, beautifully and smooth tools that were seen as very special around that time.

-31- Stonehenge and similar structures in the other Brittish Isles and Ireland may have been built by the refugees of Doggerland, but now they used stone instead of oak trees that were abundant on Doggerland.

But not immediately: first they used these oaks (Tara Hill, Ireland, or the wooden structures that preceded Stonehenge).

-32- Most of these structures are connected with some death cult, and on the east coast of England they found the remnants of a wooden circular structure, and a scientist said it was made for the dead, and that the ancients may have ferried their dead across the North Sea, to an 'Island of the Dead'. Dogger Island, perhaps??

-33- The Doggerlanders were whalers (amongst other professions), they were not too afraid to sail the oceans. When they fled after their homeland got flooded, they went to the countries they had encountered during their voyages and hunting parties.

-34- All over the world, but especially in Scotland, the Brittish Isles in general, and Ireland (and Scandinavia) they found socalled 'cup-and-circle' petroglyphs.

Many of these circles are concentric circles with a 'tail' from center to outer circle, accompanied with 'cups'.

From what I gathered around the internet, these symbols could well represent an impact of a spiralling comet (creating a huge and spectacular image across the ancient heavens) that impacted into the north of the present North Sea (west of Norway), causing the Storegga Slide, and subsequently causing the huge tsumani that flooded the remnants of Doggerland.

Petroglyphs like that are found all over the earth, but most in N/W Europe.

-35- According to one theory, around 6100 BC a swarm of 'bolids' impacted on earth (Tollmann).

-36- More recent and circular labyrinths are - according to me - depictions of this same event. The 'entrance' of the labyrinth being equal to the tail of the spiralling comet (like the 'Hale-Bopp' comet) that destroyed land 6100 BC.

Labyrinths all over the earth have to do with 'death at the center', Death, another life, the afterlife, whatever comes after the maggots start eating our flesh. The center of the spiralling comet was of course the comet itself, the rock that eventually impacted into the North Sea, and caused the death of many thousands of people.

These labyrinths are rather similar all over the earth, but in the Americas that socalled 'entrance' is always at the top of the labyrinth, while in Europe and India that entrance is at the bottom. I think that is caused by where the people watching that heavenly event were located on earth.

-37- I think I found a repesentation ( petroglyphs in Wales) of a spiralling comet impacting into the North Sea.... wishfull thinking, no doubt.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Posted (edited)

Some pics I wanted to add to my former post, but alas, I am too late.

Anyway, here they are:

LAACHERSEE-ASH.jpg

Doggerland_Storegga_bathym2.jpg

DOGGERLANDtoIreland-TuathaDeDanann.jpg

Comet_spiral.gif

cupring1.gif

hale%20bopp%20spiral.gif

9978713.jpg?526

DoggerIsland_Niflheim.jpg

Edited by Abramelin

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Posted (edited)

Ormen Lange and the Storegga Slide

The Ormen Lange gas field lies near the headwall of the enormous Storegga submarine landslide that took place for over 8200 years ago. NGI's contribution to the project has been to ensure that no such gigantic landslide is about to occur again.

The Ormen Lange gas field is the second largest gas field in Norway after the Troll gas field. For almost 8200 years ago enormous quantities of stones, gravel, sand and clay material slid out from the Norwegian shelf towards the Storegga area. The landslide scarp is about 300 km long and studies have shown that parts of the landslide scar is more than 800 km out into the deep ocean.

storegga_bolge.jpg

This landslide has also resulted in the destruction of Stone Age communities in Western Norway which was devastated by 10-15 m high waves (tsunami). There are also found marks from this event on land in both Scotland and the Faroe islands. The consequences of a new landslide of this magnitude to the pipeline system and underwater production facilities on the sea floor would be catastrophic.

Norsk Hydro, which was the operator of this gas field, initiated a large project to evaluate the risk of a new landslide in the area, and to investigate what actually caused the Storegga landslide. Before the new Ormen Lange gas field could be developed, reassurances were needed that the chances for a new landslide were minimal and that activities associated with the development and operation of the field would not increasing the risk for a new devastating landslide. Innovative design and construction of the seabed systems were required for the installation on the extremely uneven seabed that was created after the Storegga landslide.

Cause of the Storegga Slide

In order to understand the Storegga slide, we must first consider the facts during the last ice age which ended about 10,000 years ago. When the ice age was at its climax, the sea level was about 120 to 130 m below the sea level today. The melting of the ice, which started about 18,000 years ago, led to movement of enormous quantities of stones, gravel, sand and clay material were dug out from the inner parts of Scandinavia. These masses were transported by the moving icebergs and finally formed gigantic moraine deposits in the so called North Sea Fan (Nordsjøvifta).

The sedimentation process took place relatively quickly, and the water in the sediments (pore water) was not drained out. This resulted in increasing pore pressure in the sediments, significantly higher than the hydrostatic pressure, as the sedimentation process continued. High pore pressure leads to less particle contact in the soil, and the material thereby has less strength. The combination of high pore water pressure, low shear strength and inclination made the area unstable. It is likely that an earthquake was the triggering mechanism for the Storegga landslide. But since this whole area was so unstable, the slide could have been triggered by less drastic factors.

When the Storegga landslide took place, it also resulted in the mass movement of moraine material that was deposited during several different ice ages in history. Six or seven different slide surfaces with low friction have been identified. The lowest sliding surface lies close to the bottom of the landslide area, which means that the landslide propagated backwards as it continuously ¿jumped¿ to the next sliding area. The landslide is about 700 m deep. Which means that huge quantities of soil mass was in motion. It is very likely that this landslide process took place during some hours, or maximum during a couple of days.

The Ormen Lange gas field was discovered in 1997. Gas production started Thursday 13th September 2007 with gas transport through the pipeline system to the processing unit at Aukra outside Kristiansund in Western Norway. The investigations of the Storegga landslide has shown the necessity for similar type of investigations in other parts of the world. Several oil companies has therefore contacted NGI and requested assistance in connection with the evaluating for submarine landslides and geohazards along other continental shelves.

[images]

http://www.ngi.no/en...e-and-Storegga/

Dutch:

In Nederland kwamen sporen van deze tsunami aan het licht bij bodemonderzoek tijdens het aanleggen van de snelle treinverbinding naar Parijs, de HSL en bij Rotterdam Centraal Station. Onderzoek wees uit dat een onderzeese afglijding van de oceaanbodem ter hoogte van Noorwegen de zogenaamde Storegga Tsunami veroorzaakt had, die bij de Shetland eilanden een golfhoogte van 25 meter bereikt zal hebben.

http://www.ecomare.n...dex.php?id=6697

English:

In the Netherlands traces of this tsunami came to light during a soil survey for the construction of the TGV fast train connection between Paris and Rotterdam Central Station. Research showed that a submarine sedimentary movement of the ocean floor off Norway had caused the socalled Storegga Tsunami, that must have reached a wave height of 25 meters in the Shetland Islands.

b95d8862cb.png

.

Edited by Abramelin

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