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Sceptical believer

Doggerland

863 posts in this topic

Whitegandalf, I have posted a couple of summaries throughout this thread, and here's the latest one (May 2010, post 463, page 31):

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=179840&st=450#entry3417642

And to show you how some people want to force the date of Doggerland's destruction to a much more recent date to fit their pet theory, here another post (July 2010, post 509, page 34):

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=179840&st=495#entry3511978

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Thankyou Abramelin.

There is one saga that would perhaps cast light to the matter. To bad it was lost as much of the viking myths and sagaes was during the christian invasion. Its the Hålogaland saga of North Norway. Its about a large advanced powerfull seafaring kingdom, different from the viking empire down south. The viking calls them jotner or giants. They had magic weapons, armors and items. According to the viking myths, this people was here before they temself came to scandinavia. Whenever a jotun was killed his weapon was burned and bent, then buried to hinder the magic of their weapons-

Bones of cow has been carbondated at 5000 bc in the area, only 1000years after the storegga slide. Do anyone know the earlist evidence of cow domestication around the north sea?

But the cod, other fish, whale, seal, birds and eggs was also on the food table. Perhaps some of the survivers of doggerland went there after their island sank. Or it was already part of the doggerland culture. This is also the area in norway when the oldest settlements houses was. Around 8000bc, making it 1500 years older than the orkney "house" ruins.

North europe largest chief house was also built here, 80-90m long, and he controlled the world largest food and trade source, the cod and stockfish. It coud feed tens of millions.

They were relative isolated, at least by land, but is thought to have some visits by the greeks. As they speak of an island where the sun shines 24 hours a day, and therefor puts it above the arctic circle.

They had sacred caves with cavepaintings all over their territory. the most famous was on their now 95% sunken island and capital røst. One of the surviving island/mountain is now called trenyken, and the cave is called hell with fantasitic cavepaintings with people with four fingers, as the gods had.

441kart.jpg

Edited by whitegandalf

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A bit off topic, but..

The comet you are talking about is probable the comet Encke which has long been the biggest threat to humanity and still is. 50% of all debree falling on earth are from Encke. Probably more if you only count the large pieces. Some says stonehedge was built to follow this comet. Every 1000-1500 years it creates a major catastrophe causing devestation, winters of several years, blackening of the sky and severe drought. Its a relative new comet that last 20-30.000 years have caused destruction and danger.

it is a very strange comet, very light and porous. Not common at all. Its either a pice of highland from a planet or lots of small stones held together by gravity. Even that 50% of all meteorites comes from this comet, not a single one has been identified of the 50.000 found so far. It is also belived to be behind the tunguska event. No fragments found there either. It is possible that these are the socalled missing sedimentary meteorites. (mars, mercury, venus,earth origin, ++) Basicly the same stones that are common on earth-

When passing by earth close it looks like a cross or swastica.

Edited by whitegandalf

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Reply to your post 804:

The myths you mentioned are of relatively recent times, and they appear to be more like fairy tales than anything useful. I mean, giants, magic weapons and all that? All they found on the bottom of the North Sea points at hunter-gatherers.

The Doggerlanders were of course in contact with the countries around what is now the North Sea, it wasn't an isolated area. Artifacts found on the bottom of the North Sea resemble those found in Norway, Scotland and NW Europe, and even if you read the Wiki about Norway, you will read that people from Doggerland must have settled in SW Norway, or that they were one and the same people.

The Greeks (no, the Minoans) visited the North Sea area (NW Germany, west Denmark, Scandinavia) around 1700 and 1100 BC. Later again a visit by Pytheas. But all that has nothing much to do with Doggerland.

=

The next is also quite interesting: these people did not live like many would have thought:

In this article we will look in detail at a 7000-year-old farmhouse from Elsloo in the Netherlands. Built by some of the first farming communities, this kind of longhouse represents the beginnings of architecture in the Northern Europe. It is argued that it has left a heritage in architectural form and function that is still evident in the historical and contemporary built environment.

Theoretical+Model%3B+Simple+roof+forms+-parts.jpg

http://structuralarc...house-made.html

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Thankyou Abramelin.

There is one saga that would perhaps cast light to the matter. To bad it was lost as much of the viking myths and sagaes was during the christian invasion. Its the Hålogaland saga of North Norway. Its about a large advanced powerfull seafaring kingdom, different from the viking empire down south. The viking calls them jotner or giants. They had magic weapons, armors and items. According to the viking myths, this people was here before they temself came to scandinavia. Whenever a jotun was killed his weapon was burned and bent, then buried to hinder the magic of their weapons-

Bones of cow has been carbondated at 5000 bc in the area, only 1000years after the storegga slide. Do anyone know the earlist evidence of cow domestication around the north sea?

But the cod, other fish, whale, seal, birds and eggs was also on the food table. Perhaps some of the survivers of doggerland went there after their island sank. Or it was already part of the doggerland culture. This is also the area in norway when the oldest settlements houses was. Around 8000bc, making it 1500 years older than the orkney "house" ruins.

North europe largest chief house was also built here, 80-90m long, and he controlled the world largest food and trade source, the cod and stockfish. It coud feed tens of millions.

They were relative isolated, at least by land, but is thought to have some visits by the greeks. As they speak of an island where the sun shines 24 hours a day, and therefor puts it above the arctic circle.

They had sacred caves with cavepaintings all over their territory. the most famous was on their now 95% sunken island and capital røst. One of the surviving island/mountain is now called trenyken, and the cave is called hell with fantasitic cavepaintings with people with four fingers, as the gods had.

441kart.jpg

Do you have a citation/s to support this claim? I ask because the oldest evidence of modern human activity in Sweden or Norway I've seen is the Dumpokjauratj Site, which dates to c.8630 +/- 85 BP (6630 +/- 85 BC). Obviouisly this is not 8000 BC. Nor do the oldest sites in Orkney such as Skara Brae, Knap of Howar, Ness of Brodgar or the Barnhouse Settlement date to c.6500 BC as you seem to imply. They all date to the 4th millenium BC.

cormac

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I agree that "voluspå" the creation myth of the vikings most likely is younger than doggerland, and probably mention the 2 later zunamies, not the oldest zunami and the sinking of doggerland. Espesially mention of the 75 kings.. unlesst these kings lived incredible long lifes.

The mention of magic weapons and items is not pure myth. It is tecnology, not understood. When the enemy have better weapons than they did, they called it magic. First you have stone knifes, silver knifes, cobber knifes, then bronze swords, then super bronze swords (spain), then several of different stages of development of the iron sword. Today we have titanium and scandium that can makes sword longer, faster, lighter, harder, sharper and flexible. That one culture has an advantage over another in war has been the rule, not the exception in combat in conflicts, even today.

The Hålogaland kindom had acess to a metal only found naturally two places on earth (Hessdalen and Madagaskar mixed with 99,5% aliminium it makes the hardest material known today. A bulletproof west of this material can withstand 20 rounds of ak47 1m away. But if they experimented with this material is pure spekulation, but not impossible.

Edited by whitegandalf

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Do you have a citation/s to support this claim? I ask because the oldest evidence of modern human activity in Sweden or Norway I've seen is the Dumpokjauratj Site, which dates to c.8630 +/- 85 BP (6630 +/- 85 BC). Obviouisly this is not 8000 BC. Nor do the oldest sites in Orkney such as Skara Brae, Knap of Howar, Ness of Brodgar or the Barnhouse Settlement date to c.6500 BC as you seem to imply. They all date to the 4th millenium BC.

cormac

Sorry, The oldest permanent settlements on Orkney was around 4000bc as you say, The first permant settlements in Norway was 7500 bc on the island vega, off the west coast called Åsgarden

vega_n.gif

The first human signs on orkney is 6800 bc, On Norway 9200bc

Edited by whitegandalf

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Sorry, TThe oldest permanent settlements on orkney was around 4000bc as you say, The first permant settlements in North Norway was 7500 bc on the island vega called Åsgarden

1. The starting point in Åkvika

2. Hammaren, approx. 5500 years old site with house ruins.

3. The natural harbour at the top of Middagsskaret.

4. The hunting and fishing station Middagskarheia 1, 9600 years old.

5. Middagskarheia 2, approx. 8,500 years old hunting and fishing station.

6. A plundered burial site from the Iron Age.

7. Åkvikskaret 1, approx. 5500 years old site with house ruins.

http://www.vega.komm...istorical-trail

2. 3500 BC, which is not 7500 BC.

4. Hunting and fishing stations are not the same as the permanent settlement houses you claimed.

5. 6500 BC hunting and fishing station, which again is not the same as the permanent settlement houses you claimed.

7. 3500 BC, which is again not 7500 BC.

cormac

Edited by cormac mac airt

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I agree that "voluspå" the creation myth of the vikings most likely is younger than doggerland, and probably mention the 2 later zunamies, not the oldest zunami and the sinking of doggerland. Espesially mention of the 75 kings.. unlesst these kings lived incredible long lifes.

The mention of magic weapons and items is not pure myth. It is tecnology, not understood. When the enemy have better weapons than they did, they called it magic. First you have stone knifes, silver knifes, cobber knifes, then bronze swords, then super bronze swords (spain), then several of different stages of development of the iron sword. Today we have titanium and scandium that can makes sword longer, faster, lighter, harder, sharper and flexible. That one culture has an advantage over another in war has been the rule, not the exception in combat in conflicts, even today.

The Hålogaland kindom had acess to a metal only found naturally two places on earth (Hessdalen and Madagaskar mixed with 99,5% aliminium it makes the hardest material known today. A bulletproof west of this material can withstand 20 rounds of ak47 1m away. But if they experimented with this material is pure spekulation, but not impossible.

Your evidence for this is what, exactly?

No material, to include titanium, when added to 99.5% aluminum would make it the hardest material known today. Care to try again.

cormac

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Whitegandalf,

I think I can speak for Cormac when I say we here all love links to sources.

That is not because we don't trust you or even think you are lying, but it's because we all want to know by what info you came to your conclusions about this or that.

We want to check your sources - pricks that we are, lol - and then see for ourselves what we can make of it, and then agree or disagree with your conclusions.

That's really all there is to it.

And here is my post about Norway/Doggerland/Wiki (December 6 2010, post 540, page 38):

http://www.unexplain...55#entry3687720

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Doggerland?

Haha, dogging means something different around here.

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Doggerland?

Haha, dogging means something different around here.

I had to google that one: http://en.wikipedia...._(sexual_slang)

Well, maybe Adam and Eve were born in Doggerland, lol.

But alas, the name of the sunken land wasn't "Doggingland".

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Your evidence for this is what, exactly?

No material, to include titanium, when added to 99.5% aluminum would make it the hardest material known today. Care to try again.

cormac

Small amounts of scandium (0.1%-0.5%) are added to aluminium to improve crystallization parameters in welded aluminium components. Aluminium-scandium alloys have increased strength and have some use in aerospace. They were used in Russian the MiG-21 and MiG-29 fighter jets and some missiles, however titanium alloys are generally considered to be a more cost effective solution with similar performance. [1] Some sports equipment has been made with scandium alloys - including racing bicycle parts, baseball bats, golf clubs and lacrosse sticks. Some revolver frames are made using scandium alloys

http://www.criticalmetals.com/scandium.html

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Small amounts of scandium (0.1%-0.5%) are added to aluminium to improve crystallization parameters in welded aluminium components. Aluminium-scandium alloys have increased strength and have some use in aerospace. They were used in Russian the MiG-21 and MiG-29 fighter jets and some missiles, however titanium alloys are generally considered to be a more cost effective solution with similar performance. [1] Some sports equipment has been made with scandium alloys - including racing bicycle parts, baseball bats, golf clubs and lacrosse sticks. Some revolver frames are made using scandium alloys

http://www.criticalm...m/scandium.html

While Scandium does have its uses that doesn't make it's addition to aluminum "the hardest material known today" which is what you claimed. So this claim too is apparently wrong.

cormac

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So tell me of a material that is stronger. .

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Doggerland had permanent settlements in norway many thousands of years before it sank in the sea. Therefor their culture, language and people woud have survived and lived on, Although damaged too by the devestating tsunami, its land was not claimed for good by the sea.

The doggerland and coast norway settlers was not traditional hunter and gatheres, they were seafarers and fishers. If they had permanent settlements and food storages in norway, they had to have the possibility to live in permanent houses and villages in doggerland too..

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So tell me of a material that is stronger. .

Titanium alloys for one. Scandium isn't used in Aluminum-Scandium alloys for it's strength, overall. It's used for its ability to resist hot-cracking during welding. And that doesn't make it the strongest material, regarless of your claim. None of which you've shown any evidence as having to do with a Halogaland Kingdom.

Doggerland had permanent settlements in norway many thousands of years before it sank in the sea.

Still waiting on you to show evidence of any such permanent settlements in Norway c.8000BC. So far you've shown none.

cormac

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The scandium bulletproof wests are the best known on the marked, if you want the strongest bikeframes, baseballbats or golf clubs Scandium is the obvious choice. The best armoured vehicles today contains scandium aliminium alloy. Smith and wesson uses it in all their weapons.

"Scandium alloys were first used by the Soviet Union in the '70s to make fins for rockets strong enough to be fired through the arctic ice sheet, a feat which the many Americans had thought impossible. Because the only major scandium mine in the world is located in Ukraine scandium was solely used by the Soviet military until the end of the Cold War in 1991."

http://everything2.com/title/scandium

It is the hardest most durabel lightweight material out there. Although every material has its uses and properties, when you dont need to care about the weight, i guess titanium could maybe be as strong or stronger. I dont know and i dont care. Scandium alloy is still a damn strong material and contains 99,5% aliminium and 0,5% scandium.

I agree its a bit off topic, but still a fact.

Edited by whitegandalf

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Sorry again for my inaccuracy... I might have interpeted the information a bit wrong. The first settlements with permanent houses with stonewalls and grassroof was built 7500-8000bc on the island of vega and soon after other places along the coast, However it is not proven that this was used all year round. They say it might just be very large sort of capital places during the hunting/fishing season..

http://en.wikipedia....nsbacka_culture

However the first people to live in Norway (season or nomadic) in tents came around 10.000bc/11.000bc

"The Komsa culture (Komsakulturen) was a Mesolithic culture of hunter-gatherers that existed from around 10000 BC in Northern Norway."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Komsa

"Scandinavian prehistory began when the Scandinavian peninsula, formerly entirely covered by thick ice, became free of ice at the end of the last ice age, around 11,000 BC. At that time, a hunter gatherer people, the Ahrensburg culture, lived and hunted near the edge of the ice"

http://en.wikipedia....vian_prehistory

The first "confirmed" houses with permanent all season inhabitants was built around 3500-4000bc, the same as Orkney Islands.

Link is coming (much of the information is in norwegian)

Edited by whitegandalf

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Doggerland existed,there is an area in the North Sea known as the Doggerbanks,which is a good fishing area,also there is a petrified forest just off the North-East coast at very low tides you can see the remainder of tops of trees,about a mile North of Sunderland.Also a lot of shipwrecks occured there in the past.

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The permanent residential "houses", not tents, (inhabited part of the year) of Åsgården in the Vega, Norway Islands is 6330 bc /7200-7500bc old ?

Not sure, i will return..

http://books.google....en vega&f=false

page 93-95

Edited by whitegandalf

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Do you have a citation/s to support this claim? I ask because the oldest evidence of modern human activity in Sweden or Norway I've seen is the Dumpokjauratj Site, which dates to c.8630 +/- 85 BP (6630 +/- 85 BC). Obviouisly this is not 8000 BC. Nor do the oldest sites in Orkney such as Skara Brae, Knap of Howar, Ness of Brodgar or the Barnhouse Settlement date to c.6500 BC as you seem to imply. They all date to the 4th millenium BC.

cormac

This site is 9200bc old

http://www.nrk.no/nyheter/kultur/3059683.html (in norwegian)

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Sorry again for my inaccuracy... I might have interpeted the information a bit wrong. The first settlements with permanent houses with stonewalls and grassroof was built 7500-8000bc on the island of vega and soon after other places along the coast...

What you're calling permanent houses are pit-houses, which shouldn't be confused with actual house structures such as Abramelin has show before. Pit-houses aren't anything more than large dug out holes in the ground covered with turf, etc.

This site is 9200bc old.

Translated from that site:

There are 11 000 years ago the smoke from fire sites that archaeologists now digs up under the turf of Aukra in Møre og Romsdal. This settlement was at this time the Beach's edge, and in the sands archaeologists have so far found all 35,000 artifacts from the stone age and the younger iron age.

We have found over 20 axes and closer to 90 arrowheads, says field leader Tor Arne Varås.

Across the country there have been found settlements from this time, but it is especially in the United States are all fire places.

-You don't need more than two hands to count all the places in Norway where we have found charcoal, and here alone there are 12 hearths, says Birch.

Twelve (12) hearths do not constitute permanent settlement houses dating to 8000 BC, which again was your claim.

cormac

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I ask because the oldest evidence of modern human activity in Sweden or Norway I've seen is the Dumpokjauratj Site, which dates to c.8630 +/- 85 BP (6630 +/- 85 BC).

cormac

The last link is not about permanent settlements but a answer to your claim that there are no evidence of human activity in Sweden or Norway before 6630bc

The link shows human activity 9200bc.

Sorry, i did not see the word modern. I missunderstood.

Edited by whitegandalf

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What you're calling permanent houses are pit-houses, which shouldn't be confused with actual house structures such as Abramelin has show before. Pit-houses aren't anything more than large dug out holes in the ground covered with turf, etc.

cormac

Still permanent houses with a door, hole in the roof for smoke and no windows, like orkney. Both were also pithouses, dug partly down into the ground and probably had similar roof, maybe not as impressive as Orkney 4000bc, but that was not a debate. Wether the walls is of lokal Orkney stone, or of local Norwegian stones and dirt is not relevant. It is not around 8.000bc but 7500bc, sorry about that.

This means that the Doggerlanders had permanent "cabins" in Norway (where they lived part of the year) before it sank, Why wouldent some of them had permanent "cabins" on their homeland too?

Edited by whitegandalf

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