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Sceptical believer

Doggerland

863 posts in this topic

"This is also the area in norway when the oldest settlements houses was. Around 8000bc"

This was my original statement, i never claimed permanent settlements, only permanent houses..

Edited by whitegandalf

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"This is also the area in norway when the oldest settlements houses was. Around 8000bc"

This was my original statement, i never claimed permanent settlements, only permanent houses..

You did attribute them to Doggerland, having said:

Doggerland had permanent settlements in norway many thousands of years before it sank in the sea.

You've neither shown that these sites, such as Asgarden or Middagskarheia had any connection with the peoples of Doggerland nor that the peoples of both places were one and the same. Which makes your claim misleading, in the least.

cormac

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The history of human settlement in what is present day Norway goes back at least 11,000 years, to the late Paleolithic. Archaeological finds in the county of Møre og Romsdal have been dated to 9,200 BC and are probably the remains of settlers from Doggerland, an area now submerged in the North Sea

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Norway

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Norways first settlers came from the doggerland culture. Some travelled there part of the year. Other lived in norway all year, although different places in during the year.

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Repeating Wikipedia doesn't make it true. How about a citation from a professional paper/article/journal etc.

cormac

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Haplogroup I-M253 arose from haplogroup I-M170, which appears ancient in Europe. Haplogroup I-M253 has been estimated to be some 15,000 years old. It is suggested that it initially dispersed from Denmark.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I1_%28Y-DNA%29

Haplogroup_I.png

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I_%28Y-DNA%29

Denmark? It could have been all over Doggerland at that time.

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And compare that map with the map of the course of the Danube river:

Danube_map.jpg

I once said the people living in Doggerland could have easily traveled along the Rhine (and Elbe) and then to the Danube.

rivers-of-germany-01.jpg

They could have ended up in ex-Yugoslavia and Romania and the Black Sea area..

.

Edited by Abramelin

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"Posted image". yeah...

Here is that image again:

Europe_rivers.jpg

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From the National Geographic Magazine:

Searching for Doggerland

For decades North Sea boatmen have been dragging up traces of a vanished world in their nets. Now archaeologists are asking a timely question: What happens to people as their homeland disappears beneath a rising tide?

By Laura Spinney

Art by Alexander Maleev

Published: December 2012

When signs of a lost world at the bottom of the North Sea first began to appear, no one wanted to believe them. The evidence started to surface a century and a half ago, when fishermen along the Dutch coast widely adopted a technique called beam trawling. They dragged weighted nets across the seafloor and hoisted them up full of sole, plaice, and other bottom fish. But sometimes an enormous tusk would spill out and clatter onto the deck, or the remains of an aurochs, woolly rhino, or other extinct beast. The fishermen were disturbed by these hints that things were not always as they are. What they could not explain, they threw back into the sea.

Generations later a resourceful amateur paleontologist named Dick Mol persuaded the fishermen to bring him the bones and note the coordinates of where they had found them. In 1985 one captain brought Mol a beautifully preserved human jawbone, complete with worn molars. With his friend, fellow amateur Jan Glimmerveen, Mol had the bone radiocarbon-dated. It turned out to be 9,500 years old, meaning the individual lived during the Mesolithic period, which in northern Europe began at the end of the last ice age some 12,000 years ago and lasted until the advent of farming 6,000 years later. “We think it comes from a burial,” says Glimmerveen. “One that has lain undisturbed since that world vanished beneath the waves, about 8,000 years ago.”

The story of that vanished land begins with the waning of the ice. Eighteen thousand years ago, the seas around northern Europe were some 400 feet lower than today. Britain was not an island but the uninhabited northwest corner of Europe, and between it and the rest of the continent stretched frozen tundra. As the world warmed and the ice receded, deer, aurochs, and wild boar headed northward and westward. The hunters followed. Coming off the uplands of what is now continental Europe, they found themselves in a vast, low-lying plain.

Read the rest of the article here:

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2012/12/doggerland/spinney-text

Some photos:

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2012/12/doggerland/clark-photography#/01-hunter-gatherers-doggerland-670.jpg

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Haplogroup_I.png

Sicily is not coloured, here.

Does this mean 0%? Since Sicily is a melting-pot I cannot believe this.

By the way: Sicily is an island with many immigrants over history, could prove interesting to look for genetics.

Do you have any good information on that? Would be nice. Thank you!

_

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Sicily is not coloured, here.

Does this mean 0%? Since Sicily is a melting-pot I cannot believe this.

By the way: Sicily is an island with many immigrants over history, could prove interesting to look for genetics.

Do you have any good information on that? Would be nice. Thank you!

_

It means less than 5% for that haplogroup.

Maybe Cormac could give you more recent info: genetics his thing.

.

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The Dover Strait is still widening by about one foot a year.

http://www.beforeus.com/drowned.html

But the narrower a strait, the faster the curent running through it, and the faster the erosion caused by that same current will take place.

So when the North Sea came (again) in contact with the Channel, erosion may have occurred in many meters per year.

The Strait of Dover must have been the famous 'Pillars of Hercules' (Iman Wilkins)

http://www.historykb...ding-to-Wilkens

My impression of that strait at around 6000 BC :

Dover_strait_ancient.jpg

Now add some dark, clouded, threatening, or foggy skies, and you will get what I am on about.

Imagine: you pass two large cliffs/'pillars' on either side of a narrow strait with your ship, and you see shoals, islands, thick fog, ruins (?), drowned forrests or stumps of trees, a foul smell like you are in hell, and all that preferrably during sunset or dusk.

Is there anyone reading all this who knows how to use Photoshop?

I don't have Photoshop, but I sure do know what kind of image I would like to create.

And an older post about the Strait of Dover:

http://www.unexplain...90#entry3990138

I just found an image showing how the Strait of Dover might have looked 8500 BP. I don't know how accurate that representation is, but here it is anyway:

Strait_of_Dover_8500BP.jpg

MAP 4: 8,500 years ago - sea level rises, flooding through the gaps in the hills, joining the North Sea and the Atlantic.

http://www.theothers...channelform.htm

Must have been an impressive sight if there were already sailors present to admire the view.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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It means less than 5% for that haplogroup.

Maybe Cormac could give you more recent info: genetics his thing.

.

Abe, Sicily (in regards to Haplogroup I) would fall in the 5% - 10 % range.

Source: Autosomal Microsatellite and mtDNA Genetic Analysis in Sicily (Italy); Annals of Human Genetics (2003) 67, 42-53

cormac

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Abe, Sicily (in regards to Haplogroup I) would fall in the 5% - 10 % range.

Source: Autosomal Microsatellite and mtDNA Genetic Analysis in Sicily (Italy); Annals of Human Genetics (2003) 67, 42-53

cormac

I am not going to argue wuth you about genetics, Cormac, but the map I posted is based on research done in 2011:

http://en.wikipedia....-DNA)#Subgroups

Check reference [22] : ISOGG 2011.

Your reference is from 2003:

http://www.researchg..._Sicily_(Italy)

But it could be based on nothing more than a rounding error of the statistics: 4.8% would fall under the lowest limit in the map, 5.2 would fall in the 5-10% range.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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I am not going to argue wuth you about genetics, Cormac, but the map I posted is based on research done in 2011:

http://en.wikipedia....-DNA)#Subgroups

Check reference [22] : ISOGG 2011

But it could be based on nothing more than a rounding error of the statistics: 4.8% would fall under the lowest limit in the map, 5.2 would fall in the 5-10% range.

Sorry Abe, but it's not as the map itself is based on an earlier work, to whit:

Adapted from S. Rootsi et al. (2004), Phylogeography of Y-Chromosome Haplogroup I Reveals Distinct Domains of Prehistoric Gene Flow in Europe, American Journal of Human Genetics 75, 128–137

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Haplogroup_I.png

Which means that your map is based on a contemporary study to the source I gave. Not that it's a significant difference as most of the percentages given in my source were rounded up, which is not an uncommon occurance. The actual percentages for the three major areas in Sicily were as follows:

Piazza: 7.6%

Caccamo: 8.6%

Ragusa: 7.1%

cormac

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OK, and as I said: I should not argue with you about genetics, lol.

Well Proclus, that didn't hurt at all.

Just ask.

And now let's get back to Doggerland (because I do know the two of you rub each other the wrong way, and I won't like it if this turns into another endless.... nevermind).

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Posted (edited)

Further Evidence of Ancient Boat People of Northern Europe

I find it quite amazing that just a stones throw away in geographic terms we find that 'boat people' have been found and are accepted as the oldest civilisations directly after the last ice age. It is if British archaeologist are out of their 'comfort zone' to study these neighbours of ours to see if there are similarities we can see and incorporate into our own Mesolithic findings.

Here is extract from 'The Full Wiki ': http://www.thefullwiki.org/Nordland

'There is evidence of human settlement in Nordland as far back as 10,500 years ago, about as early as in southern Norway. These Stone age people lived near the coast, often on islands and typically along straits near the open sea, with a rich provision of marine resources. Such archeological evidence has been found on Vega, in Leirfjord and along Saltstraumen. There are at least 15 locations with prehistoric rock carvings in Nordland, from Helgeland in the south to Narvik in the north (see Fosna-Hensbacka culture).'

[iMAGE]

Mesolithic Boat Drawings found in caves

They lived on coasts and islands and travelled by boat - as you would do in a flooded watery environment. Consequently, if I'm correct about Prehistoric Britain wouldn't we do the same?

So what areas of Scandinavia were occupied at the end of the Ice Age and is their a relationship to Britain?

[iMAGE]

The entire civilisation was water based and lived in rivers of on the coasts - yet our archaeologists insist that we lived as 'hunter/gathers on dry land!! and remember between us and the Scandinavians was not the North Sea but 'Doggerland'

[iMAGE]

So trading and communication with this civilisation was by following the shallow coast routes to a place we know existed in 9000BC - Star Carr, were we have found a town on the edge of a lake with the first house and 'planks' of wood.

So, have we progressed by 9000BC from reed boats to wooden boats?

Even with all this evidence of boats in Mesolithic Period there will be some that would doubt that these boats could carry the stones that constructed Stonehenge - but look at this cave drawing:

[iMAGE]

Is the image in the top right a boat carrying a huge stone and is the two upright figures below standing stones??

I only wish that this drawing was from the Cheddar Gouge overlooking the route to Stonehenge - unfortunately for me its not its from Häljesta, Västmanland in Sweden.

But it clearly shows transporting stones on boats was common place in Northern Europe as it was in ancient Egypt in the Mesolithic Period.

[iMAGE]

Posted 17th May 2011 by Robert John Langdon

http://robertjohnlan...oat-people.html

++++

EDIT:

An image from one of my earlier posts:

Doggerland-suggested-settlement-sit.jpg

Edited by Abramelin
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The next is a post from another board. It mentions/shows many names, terms and maps already described and discussed in this thread, but with a lot of new information.

Anyway, worth a read for those interested in Doggerland:

We can also see the impact of natural disasters in this time period - these natural disasters included major volcanic activity in the central part of Europe in what is now western Germany on the Eiffel plateau 13,000 to 11,000 years ago, when a large part of what is now Germany was covered with ash and rocks. The most powerful explosion was from the Laach volcano *** 13,000 years ago, which seriously damaged local plant cover and drove away game animals. Archaeologist Hans-Peter Schulz theorizes that people also fled the disaster area, and, based on archaeological finds, may have fled as far away as central Russia. It could be expected that during this flight people also fled northwards into the periglacial Baltic area. After a volcanic eruption, vegetation is restored relatively quickly. Because of this, we can assume that populations wandered back and forth between the area of the natural disaster and the neighbouring territories. This tendency served to mix together various human populations and allowed for the consolidation of human genetic types and numerous incidents of language contact throughout the heart of Europe.

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=59&p=1777181#p1777181

*** Should be: Laacher See volcano.

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And an older post about the Strait of Dover:

http://www.unexplain...90#entry3990138

I just found an image showing how the Strait of Dover might have looked 8500 BP. I don't know how accurate that representation is, but here it is anyway:

Strait_of_Dover_8500BP.jpg

MAP 4: 8,500 years ago - sea level rises, flooding through the gaps in the hills, joining the North Sea and the Atlantic.

http://www.theothers...channelform.htm

Must have been an impressive sight if there were already sailors present to admire the view.

.

Iman Wilkins had some very controversial ideas about where Troy was located and where the Iliad took place, but we seem to have similar ideas about the North Sea and the Pillars of Hercules, as I found out just now:

He identifies the Helle Sea with the sea separating England from the continent of Europe, including the Channel,

the North sea, and the Baltic, and points out the enormous number of place names reflecting this identification,

such as Helford, Helston, Helladon, Hull, Hougate, Hellegat, Heligoland, Hellevad, and so on. The word is of extremely ancient Indo-European origin, often referring to the Kingdom of the Dead. Then there is another location for the Pillars of Hercules, at the Straits of Dover, indicating yet another geographic feature which seems to have been picked up and relocated, when the Greeks settled in the south. This identification must have endured for some time after this, up north, because it was referred to by Tacitus.

http://www.nwepexplo.../megaliths.html

I hope some will remember my posts in this thread about "Hell" as an ancient name for the North Sea.

The main difference between Wilkin's theory and mine is some 5000 years....

.

Edited by Abramelin
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Is there anyone out there who can change the next 2D image of the Strait of Dover in 6500 BCE into a 3D image?

Strait_of_Dover_8500BP.jpg

Edited by Abramelin

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nice job. wow the north sea gate must have been one of earth greatest wonders. :nw:

behind it lied a secret world full of other wonders like the great pyramid, the eye of the sun and two towers.

http://www.google.no...wIcTj4QTJk4GoBQ

http://www.google.no...fEB9ZJOreZbqGM:

the eye of the sun produses a 30m large concentrated sunbeam on the temple of gods every year at the date 21 jun, summer solstice

http://www.google.no...img.5-fVfr77-kE

interesting info on the genetics too :tu:

keep it coming

Edited by whitegandalf
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Solent

Remains of human habitation have been found from the prehistoric, Roman and Saxon eras, showing that humans retreated towards progressively higher ground over these periods. Offshore from Bouldnor, Isle of Wight, divers have found at 11 metres depth the submerged remains of a wooden building that was built there on land around 6000 BC when the sea level was lower and the land was higher.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solent

UK: Solent's Stone Age village 'had modern high street links'

Feb 2012

Work on an 8,000-year-old Stone Age settlement under the surface of the Solent in Hampshire is throwing up evidence of clear parallels of the modern "high street", archaeologists say.

After 30 years of excavating the area around Bouldnor Cliff, a boatyard was uncovered last summer, which teams have been working on ever since.

Since The Hampshire and Wight Trust for Maritime Archaeology spotted a swamped prehistoric forest in the 1980s, the Stone Age village was found by chance at the end of the last century.

Since The Hampshire and Wight Trust for Maritime Archaeology spotted a swamped prehistoric forest in the 1980s, the Stone Age village was found by chance at the end of the last century.

Divers taking part in a routine survey spotted a lobster cleaning out its burrow on the seabed and to their surprise the animal was throwing out dozens of pieces of worked flint - which turned out to be the first sign of the village.

The discoveries, after analysing a mile-long stretch of seabed, are of "international importance" the trust says, because it sheds new light on how people lived in the Mesolithic period.

"One area they were doing boat building, nearby they were on riverbanks and sand bars collecting reeds or doing a bit of fishing or elsewhere they would be hunting game," said director Garry Momber.

"Effectively you have all these activities happening which have strong parallels with the modern high street, but they've all just been a bit consolidated."

"We have found a pit with burnt flints, and evidence they were working wood, using technology that was 2,000 years ahead of its time."

Work to get the seabed to give up its secrets though, has required the removal of sediment that has protected the settlement for thousands of years - and this removal has given the tides the opportunity to erode that evidence away.

'Painstakingly slow'

"It is the only site of its kind in the UK," said Mr Momber, pointing out that it is currently eroding by up to 20ins (50cm) a year.

The settlement would have been flooded around the time the English channel was created, as sea levels rose in about 6,500BC.

At that time, the area near Bouldnor would have been covered with woods and freshwater lakes and rivers.

"Sea levels came up and flooded the whole lot and it was abandoned," continued Mr Momber.

"It was covered by sediment and then by salt marsh and then by the sea."

So far, archaeologists have uncovered a part of a wooden boat, flints and remains of food eaten by the Stone Age people who were based there.

http://www.sott.net/article/241653-UK-Solents-Stone-Age-village-had-modern-high-street-links

Video about the finds here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-17046338

THE BIG DIG/COVER STORY: Bouldnor Cliff

Evaluation excavation at BC-V in 2007 revealed quantities of material within the old land surface, including twigs, intact hazelnuts, burnt organic material, charcoal and burnt flint. In the peat above were timbers with evidence of working, including a piece of tangentially split oak that suggests the hewing of a large structure or possibly a logboat.

Much more here:

http://www.archaeologyuk.org/ba/ba121/feat3.shtml

Mesolithic Occupation at Bouldnor Cliff

and the Submerged Prehistoric Landscapes of the Solent

http://www.archaeologyuk.org/books/momber2011

The most significant finding that emerged from the analysis was the use of technologies on some of the worked wood that are 2,000 years ahead of anything else seen in the UK to date. The largest piece of timber recovered so far measured 0.94m long by 0.41m wide and provided a radiocarbon date of 6240-6000 cal BC (Beta 249735). It had been tangentially split from a large slow grown oak tree. This method employs wedges to cut a plank towards the edge of a tree so the grain runs almost parallel along its width. The technique can be used to create a flat plank. Once this is removed from a large oak bole, around three quarters of the tree's circumference would be available for further conversion or fashioning. Another indicative factor was the relative angles of the medullary rays, which were almost parallel. This suggested the timber had been converted from the edge of a large tree in the order of 1.5m to 2m wide. The length of such a plank may well have been over 10m long.

This presents the possibility of creating a large, deep log boat or dugout canoe with the rest of the tree. If not the remains of a log boat this tangentially split timber could have been part of a monumental building. Prehistoric timbers using these conversion techniques have been found elsewhere, although not until the Neolithic period over 2,000 years later. The timber is associated with many other pieces of trimmed and flattened wood. Some have been surveyed and recovered while others remain beneath the old land surface. The true function of this exceptional site can only be resolved by further investigation which must be done before it is lost completely.

http://www.hwtma.org.uk/investigations-in-2010

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Posted (edited)

I have posted about Jean Deruelle's theory several times in this thread (including his images),

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=179840&st=735#entry4100438

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=179840&st=735#entry4089175

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=179840&st=225#entry3341612

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=179840&st=225#entry3342159

and here's something new-ish:

The "Great Plain" of Atlantis - was it in Doggerland?

The Atlantis of Jean Deruelle

The "true heart of Europe"

It was inevitable that Doggerland (See: Doggerland lost), the part of the North Sea which was left dry for several thousand years after the end of the last ice age, should come to be considered as one more possible location for Plato's Atlantis. Doggerland stretched all the way from the east coast of England and Scotland to Denmark and supported a thriving mesolithic population. "It was the true heart of Europe," says Richard Bates, geochemist at St Andrews University in Scotland. It struggled for several millennia against the rising sea levels, then was submerged in a sudden catastrophe at a date estimated between 6200 B.C. and 5500 B.C. (Maybe caused by, or connected to the Störegga Landslide). Robert Graves himself had briefly considered the area of shallows known as Dogger Bank as a possible location for Atlantis, before dismissing it on grounds of distance.

As it happens, more than a decade before geologists focused attention on Doggerland at a 2012 meeting of the British Royal Society, a Frenchman, Jean Deruelle, had published a book making a strongly argumented case for the notoriously elusive "Great Plain" of Atlantis having been situated on now submerged land in the North Sea. He published his hypotheses in 1999, in a book called "L'Atlantide des Mégalithes," as part of a broader examination of the spread of megalithic cultures and little studied West to East movements of populations. The book was published by a reputable publisher of historic books, but received scant attention.

Jean Deruelle was born in 1915 in Longueville (Nord) and studied at the elite French Ecole Polytechnique. He was the CEO of the French coal mining company, "Les Houillères de Lorraine." During his retirement, he indulged his life-long passion for Brittany and the megalithic civilizations of Europe. He died two years after the publication of "L'Atlantide des Mégalithes."

The location of the "Great Plain" has always been one of the biggest stumbling blocks for any Atlantis identification. Deruelle, an engineer and a geologist by profession, offers a hypothesis that is rational, highly precise, and based on his areas of expertise. As for the literary form of his book, he chose a lighthearted approach, keeping to a semi-fictional threat of a wide-eyed, naive amateur, a character by the name of Thomas, who is learning as he goes along, and reporting to a chorus of bemused and sceptical relatives and friends.

More here:

http://www.q-mag.org...nofa/index.html

"inevitable"..... sigh.

The North Sea around 3000 BCE, according to Deruelle:

Doggerlande2.jpg

Edited by Abramelin

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Although both Deruelle and Trystan, and now this guy Bates, never mentioned the "Oera Linda Book", I'll bet a dime that at some point in their lives they all have read this 19th century book that is purported to be an account of an unknown ancient civilization in Europe, ruled by the ancestors of the present Frisians, and that that is the sole reason they all try to 'prove' Doggerland/Dogger Island survived for much longer (= closer to the notorious date in the OLB of 2194 BCE) than scientists are willing to accept based on radiocarbon dating (peat).

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