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Sceptical believer

Doggerland

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FROM THE FEBRUARY 1994 ISSUE

Northern Exposition

By Scott Faber|Tuesday, February 01, 1994

(...)

The archeologists know roughly how old the images are from the layer of gravel that had covered the boulders. The gravel layer, which is found all along the coast of Norway, was deposited some 6,000 years ago, after the last ice sheets of the Ice Age had melted and the sea had reached its highest level. The carvings must have been made after the boulders were uncovered by the retreating ice but before they were covered again by the water and gravel. The boulders were raised to their present high and dry position by the rebounding land: freed from the depressing weight of the ice sheet, it has been slowly rising for the past 9,000 years.

Hesjedal thus estimates that the Sørøya images were carved between 6,000 and 9,000 years ago. That makes them the oldest known boat images in Europe and among the oldest in the world. (The boat drawers of Sørøya were certainly not the first boat builders, however; Australia was settled as early as 37,000 years ago by people who must have arrived in boats.)

Who were the early inhabitants of Sørøya? The answer is not clear. Ten thousand years ago, as the ice sheet covering Scandinavia began to shrink, northern Norway is thought to have been colonized from two directions: from the east, by hunters from the Russian steppes who were pursuing migrating game such as reindeer, and whose rock carvings of reindeer have been found not far from Sørøya on the Norwegian mainland; and from the south, by people who made their way up Norway’s ice-free west coast. At the moment there is no way of telling which direction the Sørøyans came from--or whether it was both south and east.

Certainly they were accomplished sailors, because their settlements have been found on islands even farther from the coast than Sørøya. And surely, says Hesjedal, they could not have survived on the occasional reindeer; they must have eaten fish and sea mammals, both of which are plentiful in the rich, Gulf Stream-warmed waters off northern Norway. Curiously, though, apart from two murky drawings that may represent whales, no sea creatures are depicted in the rock carvings from Sørøya.

(...)

http://discovermagazine.com/1994/feb/northernexpositi343#.Uah4i9g06Vs

The boats of Slettnes: sources of Stone Age shipbuilding in Northern Scandinavia

Slettness.png

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Posted (edited)

Although both Deruelle and Trystan, and now this guy Bates, never mentioned the "Oera Linda Book", I'll bet a dime that at some point in their lives they all have read this 19th century book that is purported to be an account of an unknown ancient civilization in Europe, ruled by the ancestors of the present Frisians, and that that is the sole reason they all try to 'prove' Doggerland/Dogger Island survived for much longer (= closer to the notorious date in the OLB of 2194 BCE) than scientists are willing to accept based on radiocarbon dating (peat).

It could also be because of what Bryony Coles once suggested :

Once formed in the late last glacial, the Dogger Bank would have been a substantial hilly region in the North Sea plain, and, as sea-level rose in the Holocene, would have remained exposed first as a peninsular and then an island of an extensive archipelago. Coles (1998) suggests that it was only cut off as an island in after c. 5,000 BP when sea-level climbed to within 10–12m of its current height, although Jelgersma’s (1979) sea-level model would suggest this happened earlier. Thus large areas of the Channel and North Sea would have been dry land for the first half of the period in question, and numerous islands would have remained exposed in the North Sea even at the end of the Mesolithic...

http://www.waughfamily.ca/Ancient/

We know now that it was cut off as an island around 8150 BP.

-

Interest in the area was reinvigorated in the 1990s by the work of Professor Bryony Coles, who named the area "Doggerland" ("after the great banks in the southern North Sea") and produced a series of speculative maps of the area.

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Doggerland

As I have shown in this thread it was the third translator of the "Oera Linda Book" , Overwijn, who already coined that name in 1941.

And recently I found out the second translator of the OLB, Herman Wirth, coined it even earlier (and then borrowed by Overwijn) in 1934: Herman Wirth - Aufgang der Menschheit

Some may think it was coined even earlier by Clement Reid in 1913 in his "Submerged Forests", but I have read that book, and he never mentions "Doggerland", only the "Dogger Bank" and he added a drawing of how the Doggerland area may have looked.

Soooo.... did Bryony Coles read the Oera Linda Book, and is that why she suggested a date of 3000 BCE?

.

Edited by Abramelin

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I'm posting this for Abramelin... This is an animation I made for him based on a map he drew showing the Dover Straights and Doggerland... I was able to animate it in a 3-D program and this is the result...

It has a few spots I'm not happy with but the animation took the better part of a month to do - so I don't really feel like re-doing it...

[media=]

[/media]

This pic below is the model I created based on his drawings... the red line shows the path of the animation...

doggerland2a_zps301909f4.png

the bright green area to the northwest of the line (at the start) is present day Dover(ish) while the same color area to the south is the northern coast of France...

This area represents the newly broken land bridge between the British Isles and Europe...

The southern coast then goes on to represent Belgium, and on to the Jutland area of Denmark... Doggerland is the Island area north of the end of the red line....

This is a simple animation, and my first attempt at a large scale movie - so please try to overlook the crudity of it...

Any art/animation criticisms should be directed to me not Abramelin...

Edited by Taun
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Thanks a lot. Taun !!

Any attempt of displaying the experience of sailing past the original pillars of Hercules is better than nothing.

And you did a good job.

++

EDIT

And this is the map Taun based his animation on:

Strait_of_Dover_8500BP.jpg

MAP 4: 8,500 years ago - sea level rises, flooding through the gaps in the hills, joining the North Sea and the Atlantic.

He also showed Dogger Island.

./

Edited by Abramelin
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Cormac, what I said about the 'Nephilim/Nef Hille' was just in jest. There is no Nef Hille in the OLB, I just used the OLB way of twisting and distorting ancient names of gods, and have some fun with it.

About genetics: I know it's what we call an 'exact science', but it's conclusions based on new facts change so rapidly that we just have to wait for a century for any definative conclusions about human migrations.

"Mish-mash"....

What I am doing in this thead is what is known as 'brainstorming', anyone just blurts out what comes up in her/his mind.

I never said that what I posted was the truth, I just tried out options based on what science and history had to offer.

Can we agree to disagree?

++++

EDITED to add:

The Maglamosian culture spread from England, across Doggerland, to north-western Russia.

After the end of the last Ice Age there were many large ice lakes bordering the retreating ice sheats.

People from England could have been in contact with people from Russia by means of travelling with boats and/or canoes.

And a lot easier than travelling by land.

So this is what I think: that culture *AND* its language spread along that area. But at some point in time, the people at the east developed their own language, the language we now know to be proto-Uralic, or proto-Finno-Ugric.

But remnants of that language got preseverved in the language of the people that entered the western-Euopean area, the pre-Indo-Europeans that invaded Europe long after the end of the last ice age.

Yep, I know, my theory about the name of the Dutch goddess, "Nehallennia", may be off, but it was my assumption that this name got preserved as "Hell"/"Halja"/"Hulle"/"Holle" as the name the Frisians gave to the North Sea. And the Scandinavians had a goddess called "Hell" who ruled about an underworld covered by mists.... an island protected by walls and with a well that was the origin of a lot of rivers... like Doggerland.

Originally 'Nehallennia" may have been an erratic Roman translation/interpretation of "maalähelläjään", or something similar, the 'Land near Ice".

I know you don't like what I am doing here, but I have told you many times I am not convinced about what I suggested.

I am just trying out things, hoping someone gets a sparkling brainwave, and tells us about something not one of us thought of before.

This is the thread to show you have imagination combined with science.

I am not waiting for some 'channeler' to post bs based on his/her dreams, ok?

Cormac, I do aprreciate your critical view, really.

But I also hope you are able to appreciate me giving options.

Even though these options are not proven facts.

.

Lego, the law of linguistics :-)

Nephilim -> fallen angels

Nifelheim -> place of mist (nevel)

That is an easy one: Ne-Val (Neer-Val) -> Down Fall (af-hel=val)

The giants (de reuzen -> the ru-wysen -> those who used to ru-le with their knowledge -> d-ru-wiz's -> druids) fell in sin (not as wise at they used too, moral standards were lowering :-).

In the misty land they were living, where heaven was on earth (paradise, or when clouds meet earth: clouds/mist falls down on earth) -> neer-val, (h)el-ische champs, naharvalli

Edited by Van Gorp

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Lol, well, at least you quoted an old post of mine that is very on topic. But you dug deep, hahaha !!

=

Nebel, Nifl, Nevel..... fog or mist in English.

No giants or angels here.

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Thanks a lot. Taun !!

Any attempt of displaying the experience of sailing past the original pillars of Hercules is better than nothing.

And you did a good job.

++

EDIT

And this is the map Taun based his animation on:

Strait_of_Dover_8500BP.jpg

MAP 4: 8,500 years ago - sea level rises, flooding through the gaps in the hills, joining the North Sea and the Atlantic.

He also showed Dogger Island.

It's kind of hard to post while looking over your shoulder for someone coming, but I should add this other image Taun used for his animation, though the route in his animation is a bit different from the one in the image (the red line):

(click to enlarge)

post-18246-0-24063400-1378423061_thumb.j

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Hello Abramelin,

Great thread on Atlantis, I am on about page 10, about December 2009. So allow me to miss statements for facts, as I have not read up to page 52 of the thread yet.,,,, YET.

I found this thread, by looking for an explanation to usa mound builders, and Windover bog people, who were not usa Indians, they were "white". i include a link to a pair of videos to the Windover bog people, who i believe are linked to the people in Atlantis, part of their trade route back 10,000 years BC. What is interesting from this find (see link below) is that they were very advanced, and had "woven" clothes, not animal skins.

We have mounds all over around here, I think building high dirt hills was viewed as safe, due to "lengends" of floods, and living along the rivers that feed the Missisippi.

Also, the copper miners in the Upper Pennisela of Michigan, connected to the Missisippi trade route, I believe were also part of the Atlantis trade network. Evidence of Euorpeans has been found in usa well before Columbus arrived in 1942.

I know about the Storegga, know it's true and about 6100BC, Tsunami sediments have also been found in usa, and in the gulf of Mexico.

I believe usa , Hudson bay Glacier lakes, got hit by a pair of asteroids, unleashing torrent of flooding down the missisippi river valley, which is everything East of the Rockey Mountains. For a couple of months the Hudson Bay Glacier lake drained, and raised sea level by at least 10 feet, and wiped out civilization in the missippi river valley.

At the same time as these asteroids hit usa, and flooding was occuring, I think the Storegga undersea landslides occured.

Combined, with the resultant changes in salinity, water currents and even atmosphere ( if Methane was released during the Storegga even), life was made very difficult along the coasts of the Atlantic.

Anyway, I put what I thought together, and was looking for who could set up such a trade network, and thought of Doggerland, and then the possiblity of Atlantis. So I googled those 2 subjects and found your thread.

I like the idea of the pillars of Hercules, being the white cliffs of dover, during stages of erosion. As you know, the queens' palace in Amsterdam has Hercules carrying the world on his shoulders, flanked by a pair of angels.

Very pleasing during the reading of your thoughts up to 2009, is the fact i am Frisian. My Mom and grandparents spoke Frisian, and me personally I like the cold, cloudy, overcast weather. The same weather probably that was around in 10,000BC in the Doggerland.

My wife is also from Friesland for what that's worth.......

Our family in the past used to fish the Doggerland area, it was shallow and fish were found there.....,,,,,,

And have traded with people in England, Sweden and Finland,,,, via sailboat of course. I agree Frisian is alot like English, and could be the root language.

That is it for now, cheers from Chicago.

http://www.ancientcanalbuilders.com/windover.html

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Hello Abramelin,

Great thread on Atlantis, I am on about page 10, about December 2009. So allow me to miss statements for facts, as I have not read up to page 52 of the thread yet.,,,, YET.

I found this thread, by looking for an explanation to usa mound builders, and Windover bog people, who were not usa Indians, they were "white". i include a link to a pair of videos to the Windover bog people, who i believe are linked to the people in Atlantis, part of their trade route back 10,000 years BC. What is interesting from this find (see link below) is that they were very advanced, and had "woven" clothes, not animal skins.

We have mounds all over around here, I think building high dirt hills was viewed as safe, due to "lengends" of floods, and living along the rivers that feed the Missisippi.

Also, the copper miners in the Upper Pennisela of Michigan, connected to the Missisippi trade route, I believe were also part of the Atlantis trade network. Evidence of Euorpeans has been found in usa well before Columbus arrived in 1942.

I know about the Storegga, know it's true and about 6100BC, Tsunami sediments have also been found in usa, and in the gulf of Mexico.

I believe usa , Hudson bay Glacier lakes, got hit by a pair of asteroids, unleashing torrent of flooding down the missisippi river valley, which is everything East of the Rockey Mountains. For a couple of months the Hudson Bay Glacier lake drained, and raised sea level by at least 10 feet, and wiped out civilization in the missippi river valley.

At the same time as these asteroids hit usa, and flooding was occuring, I think the Storegga undersea landslides occured.

Combined, with the resultant changes in salinity, water currents and even atmosphere ( if Methane was released during the Storegga even), life was made very difficult along the coasts of the Atlantic.

Anyway, I put what I thought together, and was looking for who could set up such a trade network, and thought of Doggerland, and then the possiblity of Atlantis. So I googled those 2 subjects and found your thread.

I like the idea of the pillars of Hercules, being the white cliffs of dover, during stages of erosion. As you know, the queens' palace in Amsterdam has Hercules carrying the world on his shoulders, flanked by a pair of angels.

Very pleasing during the reading of your thoughts up to 2009, is the fact i am Frisian. My Mom and grandparents spoke Frisian, and me personally I like the cold, cloudy, overcast weather. The same weather probably that was around in 10,000BC in the Doggerland.

My wife is also from Friesland for what that's worth.......

Our family in the past used to fish the Doggerland area, it was shallow and fish were found there.....,,,,,,

And have traded with people in England, Sweden and Finland,,,, via sailboat of course. I agree Frisian is alot like English, and could be the root language.

That is it for now, cheers from Chicago.

http://www.ancientca...m/windover.html

Of course. Redinjuns can't build by themselves- after all, we did kill them all!

Other then Windover Bog (admittedly an extraordinary find) there is NO evidence of Europeans in North Americans, aside from the Soultrean HYPOTHESIS

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Abe: I know how much you've lamented being alone in your research. However, rest assured: you are no longer alone.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/archaeology/britains-atlantis-scientific-study-beneath-north-sea-could-revolutionise-how-we-see-the-past-10480279.html

A 2.1 million euro study is underway to figure out just what went on in Doggerland- and that includes potential genetic testing on any natives, and seraching for any human constructions.

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This is great news! I can't wait to get updates.

And I hope they find humain remains and can extract DNA. I'm curious to see whether Doggerlanders were full Western hunter-gatherers, the ancestor of the Shetland islanders (4320-4030 BC, which should be about the same periode than the final sink of Doggerland) or something else.

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Technology is increasing our capability to understand our history. I would much rather fill in the blanks with facts than conjecture. Lets explore what Doggerland really was rather than trying to bend and twist it to fit some dream of Atlantis. The same goes for the Americas. There were wonderful things going on here before Eurpoeans "discovered" these lands. Folk tales may go back as far as remembrances of the Ice Age. That is not because Algonquin people are descendants of Atlantis. It is because societies can be a lot more complex and rich than our Victorian/ Euro-centric sensibilities allow. Who could possibly be superior in apprension to a 19th century Englishman? Well as it turns out, a lot of people. Don't assume that you can sit at your computer and intuit why the Hopewellian culture or any of the other associated cultures built their mounds. Building a mound in a floodplain is a lot more work and not so sensible as moving the town up to a bluff. Our ancestors were not so superstitious or stupid as some folks would like to make them out to be.

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