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Saru

Returning to the Moon: A Good Idea ?

18 posts in this topic

This is a formal debate on the topic of whether it is right for NASA to be aiming to return to the Moon, or whether they should be concentrating their efforts elsewhere.

The debate will be between two people, if you'd like to take part, please register your interest by posting a short message as a reply to this topic.

For full details on the way the debate system works, Click Here

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hmmm.. i can't grasp this from the "we shouldn't return" side.

But I'll give this debate a shot.

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I`ll give this debate a shot. I can easily think up many arguments for going to the moon and I am starting to work out some for not going. Either way I`ll give it my best. look forward to debating this subject.

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Ok then, without further ado we can get this debate started.

The results of the coin toss reveal that

AztecInca will be arguing for returning to the Moon

and Hunterkiller2001 will be arguing against returning to the Moon

You are both allowed 5 posts as well as an introduction and conclusion.

Good luck thumbsup.gif

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Opener:

Ladies and Gentlemen. In this debate I hope to show you that mankind should focus on our planet, rather then worrying about the moon, and beyond.

Our own planet is in turmoil. From pollution and the oozne, to the diseases and wars that plauge our own species.

During my argument, my overall question will be: Why spend Billions of dollars to send people to the moon, when that very same money could be used to research cancer, or cure hunger in many nations?

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Opening statement:

ladies, gentlemen and all others involved with unexplained-mysteries. I will in this debate convince you that NASA and all other space agencies and companies should, NO MUST return to the moon.

We can`t stay on Earth forever unless we expand out into the solar system. Earth cannot sustain the human race forever and our resources are already starting to run out. It is just not economically feasible to keep launching missions from earth with the gravity and the cost that, that than incurs in fuel. If we return to the moon we can build a major base and launch mission from there much easier and more efficently.

My main arguments will consist of the need for us to expand away from the earth, have a much more efficent and cost effective base to launch ships, probes, satellites etc..... humanities urge to explore, scientific and research possibilities and much much more.

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Man kind should not return to the moon, or travel beyond until some out OWN problems are taken care of.

War:

United as a species, we could progress into space much faster. What if we get to the moon, and another war starts, and as a country we jettison the progect, to use the money to drive the war effort. Thats exactally what happened to the Apollo program!

There are soo many things that could disrupt such a program. From terrorists, to opposing country attacks. Your 300 billion dollar moon base is gonna look real good when another country decides to fly a bomb into it's window.

Some sort of peace must be worked out before we attempt to head to the moon, or it could be a disaster.

Hunger:

300 Billion dollars. This is a number i've heard related to setting up a permanent base. Lets break this down. And remember.. this number is for the AMERICAN attempt at the moon. SO the actual number would be a lot higher, given the amount of people who want to get on the moon. (or will want to, once we get there)

60,000,000,000 Mcdonalds "value meals" (based on $5 a pop)

600 BILLION candy bars ($0.50)

900 BILLION bottles of water (3 for $1 around here)

1,000,000,000,000 servings of soup (based on a estimate from a local soup kitchen), such as served in soup kitchens.. This is enough to feed (if my math works) 913,242,009.13 people 3 times a day, for a year. ALmost a MILLION people, going hungry.. because we're more interested about the moon. Tell that to the people going hungry.

Disease:

Imagine what 300 billion dollars could do in the hands of Cancer researcher. OR AIDS researchers. Would you rather go to the moon.. or eliminate some of the leading causes of human death?

While our resources are running out, if humans learned to take better care of our planet (another use for the money) our resources, and our planet, could last a LOT longer.

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The human race will always have problems of its own to deal with and no matter how hard we try we will always have them. The human race will never get along with each other. Its in our nature to be in conflict and want better and more than the other.

Space exploration is our future, we must establish a permanent base out there otherwise it just becomes to expensive and dangerous. On the moon we wouldn`t have to worry about breaking through the gravity and atmosphere of the planet earth. Equipment wouldn`t deteroiate if its maintained and would last much longer than on earth. Some ships would never have to enter the earths atmosphere and wouldn`t need to have million dollar repairs and replacement done each time.

You have talked about the cost of this venture but everything costs in life. Look over a 100 billion dollars a year is spent on cosmetics by the worlds population. Wow isn`t that an worthwhile expenditure. What about all the money spent on government advertisements and campaigns, as well as all the "studies" they do. How hard would it be to cut that down a little. How much money does the american government have?!?!?! They quite clearly have far more money than any other countries. Just look at all the money spent on defence and military needs. That alone would pay for a couple moon bases.

There is no need to divert funds from any other areas of need. No one said that money needs to be taken away from the needy who require money to stay warm and feed. Just reduce the amount spent on unnecessary things like all those advertising campaigns, military and defence costs etc....

Do you believe that the trillions of dollars spent on americas defence is really required. They have around 9,000 nuclear weapons why do they need so much spent when clearly besides terrorists ther is no real threat for them. No one is going to invade any time soon.

My next post will include more rebuttal to my worthy opponents arguments as well as scientific possibilities produced by this base, technological and economic possibilities and much much more.

Some of the worlds know resources will run out in the next century do you want to be stuck down here when that happens and ther is no new ones coming in from the plentiful harvest grounds of space. thumbsup.gif

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I'm gonna do something i never do in a debate.. I'm gonna quote parts of your post, and reply.. there's just to much to respond to.

The human race will always have problems of its own to deal with and no matter how hard we try we will always have them. The human race will never get along with each other. Its in our nature to be in conflict and want better and more than the other.

The human race is completely capable of getting along with each other. Space programs have already brought former enemies together. We need to get more of the world together, with one goal before we even attempt this or the space elevator.

Space exploration is our future, we must establish a permanent base out there otherwise it just becomes to expensive and dangerous. On the moon we wouldn`t have to worry about breaking through the gravity and atmosphere of the planet earth. Equipment wouldn`t deteroiate if its maintained and would last much longer than on earth. Some ships would never have to enter the earths atmosphere and wouldn`t need to have million dollar repairs and replacement done each time.

The equiptment would be much more prone to impacts by meteors tho. That minimal atmosphere works both ways. Crap burns in our atmosphere... Just look at the moon.. ( ) ( ) ( ) ( )

You have talked about the cost of this venture but everything costs in life. Look over a 100 billion dollars a year is spent on cosmetics by the worlds population. Wow isn`t that an worthwhile expenditure. What about all the money spent on government advertisements and campaigns, as well as all the "studies" they do. How hard would it be to cut that down a little. How much money does the american government have?!?!?! They quite clearly have far more money than any other countries. Just look at all the money spent on defence and military needs. That alone would pay for a couple moon bases.

So, i spend $1000 a year on video games. I spend more then that on computers, and parts. But there's some people in this world, like me, who give back as much as they take. I donated almost $15,000 to charities last year, because i know people need help. If the human race would stop for just a split second, and look around them, they'd realize that all the money they spend on crap could be put to a better use. If people would work together, and help each other, there's be no need to spend trillions on weapons, and security.

Your right, the US governement is the worlds biggest buyer of "crap", but stop for a second, and tell me that you really think we won't turn the moon into a weapons launchpad? Here's another place the small lunar atmosphere is really effective : You could launch a missle from the moon to any target on earth.. using barely any fuel.

Look at the "Rods from god" plan. I could easily see the "lunar armament" movement dwarfing what is spent to actually consruct legit, scientific outposts.

There is no need to divert funds from any other areas of need. No one said that money needs to be taken away from the needy who require money to stay warm and feed. Just reduce the amount spent on unnecessary things like all those advertising campaigns, military and defence costs etc....

Oh no no.. you know where the money is gonna come from? Tax increases, and money pulled from schools, hospitals, and other NEEDED programs.

Asking the US military to pull funds from black ops will just get you laughed at.

Advertising campains? You mean presidental? those are privately funded.

Military "go navy" ads? yea right. With the war on terror having no foreseeable end, military recruitment is a lot more important then any moon project.

Do you believe that the trillions of dollars spent on americas defence is really required. They have around 9,000 nuclear weapons why do they need so much spent when clearly besides terrorists ther is no real threat for them. No one is going to invade any time soon.

Thanks for proving a point for me. This is exactally what i mean by needing more alliances. The US is the most paranoid country on the face of the earth. to quote our dear president "I'm not gonna launch a two million dollar missile at a ten dollar tent and hit a camel in the butt"

This is US policy. It'll never end until all possible enemies are either eliminated

or "unified" with us. Even then, it will probably go on as a "just in case" measure.

Some of the worlds know resources will run out in the next century do you want to be stuck down here when that happens and ther is no new ones coming in from the plentiful harvest grounds of space.

yay! strip mining space!

the only real resource that could possibly run out in that time is oil. I don't suppose i have to tell you how oil is made.. your not going to find that in space. (if anyone needs to know.. ask, i'll post in my next response) Besides.. Oil dosn't burn in space. Theres much more efficent ways, and you can create them in a lab.

If your talking about Iron, and other minerals.. Most metals can be melted down and reused. this isn't something you need worry about. There's plenty of time to work on our current issues. No need to rush head first into space.

And unless the moon is really made of cheese, there's no real "resources" to benefit from.

Where do you plan to get these resources anyway? The asteriod belt? Mars? The moon itself? Our technology isn't capable of tapping space for anything useful.

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I suppose when you refered to bringing enemies together you were talking about Russia and America. The mere fact that the soviet union collapsed and russia become quite literally broke has absolutely nothing to do with russia no longer going against america. They could no longer compete and therfore decided to work with the americans cause they would foot most of the bill. They had no choice and had to be nice and friendly with america otherwise face destruction with no money , food or power at all besides there nukes. Countries achieve far more when competing with one another than when they work together. They squabble too much and nothing ever gets done. If we all worked together life would be easier but to put it simply people can rarely do it for long periods of time.It is possible though.

It would be much easier to accomplish if we all worked together to go to the moon but do you see communist russia, democratic america, japanese, indian, british, aussie,middle- eastern countries getting along to do this any time soon. Allow nasa to do it to show the world it can be done than create a U.N space agency to buils another international one.

Good on you for donating that much money to charity last year, but as you said the majority of people dont really give a stuff about everyone else. If you just asked all americans who earned over $50,000 a year to pay an extra $4 tax for just a couple of years, the amount of money you woul collect would pay for the project quite easily. I`m also sure that the government is going to take money away from the educational, medical and needed areas. That will really help the people and make them real popular come election time.

As the human race grows more and more the demand for metals and other resources grows more and more. The human race id just going to grow more and more we need more raw materials to provide shelter, tools,and everything people take for granted. We are also going to run out of space soon and will need to send people some where else otherwise life will become quite uncomfortable. We could use the moon base as a city which could house people eventually not in the near future though. It could be the station they would use to depart to other parts of out solar system.

The amount of technology and scientific brakthroughs that has come through space exploration is tremendous and will only increase. Most of the time spent in the internation space station is devoted to science where new things are learnt and discovered all the time. They are very restricted though because of the tiny working areas and conditions. If we have a base on the moon we can quite easily do much scientific work which will result in significant improvements in our lives. We can also find out much more about space and how to survive in it for prolonged periods of time. We can learn so much just from being there. Mankinds greatest quest is for knoweldge and thats what we must concentrate on to further ourselves as intelligent life forms and as people. As well as making sure the moon isn`t really made out of cheese otherwise we could solve world hunger very quickly.

By the way although the moon is a lot more prone to meteor strikes there is no other form of weathering except the cold which can be easily combated. On earth we have to contend with water, wind, sand, soil, pollution ect.........

Geezzzz I wrote a lot there I`ll stop now but my next post will include even more arguments and more rebuttal for my worth opponents arguments. Looking forward to the rest of the debate. thumbsup.gif

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I have to admit.. this is a damn tough fight.

It's so hard, and I'm so for returning to the moon, that i regretfully have to concede.

I give up

I rolled over

White flag!

No matter how much research i do.. there's not enough "bad" reasons to fight the good.

Well fought AztecInca, you argued FOR returning as i would have.

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Ok, now rather than have the debate come to an abrupt halt there, what will happen now is that i'll allow AztecInca to post a conclusionary post, and then the judges can come in and do their thing.

Because Aztec will be able to conclude his arguement he will have an advantage, but even though HunterKiller has conceded, it doesn't mean he will automatically lose the debate. The final result will depend on how both participants did throughout.

So to finalise the debate, AztecInca it's over to you for one more post to finish things off before we get the judges in.

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Well this is very unexpected, I personally thought humterkiller2001 was doing a great job of arguing for not returning to the moon but as he said there just isn`t enough good reasons not to go.

Conclusion!!!

The human race has has existed on earth for all of our known existence, but we cannot stay on this planet forever. We have already proven we can go to the moon and explore space but to properly explore and expand into the solar syatem, galaxy and universe we require a lauching pad that will make space travel far more sustainable, feasible and more efficent. A moon base will be the perfect place to have this launching pad for our journey into the cosmos. The cost of spave travel and all space ventures would be significantlly reduced as well as easing the difficulties of this ventures.

The planet earth cannot sustain the human race forever and our resources on this planet are beginning to run out and although they will stil last for a century or two if we are very lucky. They aren`t inexhaustible and will run out. HUNTERKILLER2001 said that we can just keep recycling metals but how long can we keep that up????? the demand will eventually be more than the what we can provide. The human race is growing and growing and the more people there is the more resources and raw materials they require to live their lives. We have to use the moon base as a launching pad to begin our search for and mining of resources(mainly metals) so that we can continue to live our lives the way that best suits us as an individual.

We have already discovered and created many many new and exciting scientific and technological breakthroughs in space in the tiny space staion orbiting around the earth imagine what we could accomplish in a large pemanent base on the moon with far superior equipment and working conditions.

There will always be a cost associated with space travel and all space ventures, it is a new and exciting frontier for the human race and it is the future of the human race. We are always trying new things and exploring new frontiers it is in our nature and it is what will keep the human race in exsistence. Everything costs, we spend money on stupid, irrelevant and silly things all the time. 100 billion on cosmetic products in just one year, trillions on armies and defence which we shouldn`t need. You can complain as much as you want about the cost of this venture but just stop and think about what you spend your money on as well as what your government spends your taxpayers dollars on.

The human race has only just begun its true exsistence. we have thousands, millions even billions of years to live and to explore this universe. Now it is time to leave this planet and begin our journey into the cosmos. Our survival is in our own hands and going to the moon is only the first step in this ultimate journey of the human race. We must go to the moon and build a permanent base so that space travel becomes far more efficent and easier for every human being alive today and tomorrow. Lets begin this journey now and you`ll trully see what the human race can become. We have the potential to do anything so lets stop arguing about it and do it. We have to return to the moon!!!!!!!!!!!

Thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!! thumbsup.gif

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Thanks to both our participants, now it's over to the judges thumbsup.gif

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OK, then since I'm here I'll go first..

Debater 1: hunterkiller2001

Relevancy: 8

Countering: 3

Style: 8

Persuasiveness: 4

Total: 23

Debater 2: AztecInca

Relavancy: 9

Countering: 7

Style: 6

Persuasiveness: 10

Total: 32

It's too bad this one ended early, as I was enjoying it. hunterkiller, I had to deduct major points from you in countering and persuasiveness due to Your concession, so don't feel that the low score reflects your overall debate skills. And good job AztecInca!

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Well here goes:

HUNTERKILLER2001

Relevancy = 3

Countering = 5

Style = 7

Persuasiveness = 3

TOTAL = 18/40

AZTECINCA

Relevancy = 8

Countering = 6

Style = 6

Persuasiveness = 9

TOTAL = 29/40

And to expain a little about my judging - I think both parties made great attempts at their side of the debate, but HunterKiller2001 kind of missed the target slightly - the argument wasn't against NASA, but why NASA shouldn't return to the moon. Sure money might well be better spent elsewhere than a space programme, but this argument was about the directions in which NASA spends its funding...

Good debate, nonetheless... thumbsup.gif

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Good debate guys, thanks to both of you for taking part.

As Falco and Loonboy both said, it's a real shame it had to end early. It was a hard topic though.

HUNTERKILLER2001

I found you needed to stay more on the topic at hand, and of course, needed to finish the debate. However your style of debate was not bad.

Relevancy = 4

Countering = 4

Style = 7

Persuasiveness = 4

TOTAL = 19/40

AZTECINCA

Good, relevant information, you definately had me persuaded. Countering was lacking a little bit.

Relevancy = 8

Countering = 5

Style = 7

Persuasiveness = 9

TOTAL = 29/40

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Thanks to our judges, and of course to AztecInca and HunterKiller for taking part.

The final results then mean that with 30 points, AztecInca is the winner of this debate, with HunterKiller scoring a respectable 20 points.

Well done to you both thumbsup.gif

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