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Sakari

How do I invite evil spirits to my home?

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That's not entirely true. I've said a few times now that I believe this can be done while in dreaming states(lucid dreaming/astral travelling etc). And I have given a very simple technique on how. Simply use your voice to vibrate a name while in a lucid dream.

Here is a quick quote taken from wiki. http://en.wikipedia....ki/Astral_plane

So imo if you wish to really communicate then its best to be in what is considered the right place.

And who has done that successfully on here? Anyone?

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And who has done that successfully on here? Anyone?

Done what successfully? Do you mean successfully shared a technique that others have tried or do you mean successfully done myself?

I cant say really say myself if I was truly successful in sharing my technique, I guess thats up to others to decide. So if someone tries it, then I guess I successfully shared it.

But if you were asking if I had done this technique myself, then I believe I was successful when I came up with it(I hadnt read of anyone else doing it before). So to me it was something new.. invoking and evoking, I'm still not sure which it comes under. I was into ceremonial magick but I thought I might be able to basically take a short cut by trying basic summoning techniques during lucid dreaming. And I believe it worked quite well.

Just do a search under 'Ariel' with my name to find what I've posted about it. You could even do a search for 'mexican walking fish'.. or just mexican. Thats one I dont think you can find under Ariel.

But like I said a few pages ago, its hard to tell what is a separate entity.

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When I said world forum I was talking not about a forum on the internet... I was speaking about international recognition and world reknown.

But yes, the spirit world is full of deceptions in order to (mis)lead people into falsehoods and lies. I truly believe Sakari is not achieving anything with this thread. Moot point.

Pfffft the physical world is the one full of lies and false hoods. The spirit world forces you to face deep truth particularly about yourself. I always find it interesting how sinister people take the spirit world without ever haveing taken the time to really explore the concept.

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And who has done that successfully on here? Anyone?

Many times.

People are looking for physical spiritual entities. It's like trying to look for an emotion in a tool box.

Edited by Seeker79
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Pfffft the physical world is the one full of lies and false hoods. The spirit world forces you to face deep truth particularly about yourself. I always find it interesting how sinister people take the spirit world without ever haveing taken the time to really explore the concept.

Not according to me, the spirit world is full of illusions and conceits and dangers. No body has ever grasped it. No one has ever mastered it.

And what you have proposed in this thread may be nothing more than your HEART felt convictions that may have enough basis of truth as a two-legged bar stool.

It is just your rationalizing convictions presented in thread, are you rationalizing the spirit world and have never obtained any deeper truths. Just spewing out simple platitudes to your HEART'S content. EDIT: a la positive re-enforcement.

One wise piece of advice states, the heart is deceptive ABOVE all else and should not be trusted.

Just my .02 cents.

Edited by Ambush Bug

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Pfffft the physical world is the one full of lies and false hoods. The spirit world forces you to face deep truth particularly about yourself. I always find it interesting how sinister people take the spirit world without ever haveing taken the time to really explore the concept.

I agree, the spiritual world is not one to easily doubt when you have experienced it for yourself, seen what is there to be seen, spoken with the entities to be spoken with. Unlike the physical world, the spirit realm has truth. But similar to the physical realm, the spirit realm has dark entities as well. These dark entities might not necessarily be EVIL. It could be their intrinsic nature to be "dark" spirits..just like a spider devouring a pretty butterfly is not considered evil, because it needs to eat in order to survive. So it is the same with "dark" spirits. There is a big gap between the dark spirits and the truly what you call "evil" spirits.
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Not according to me, the spirit world is full of illusions and conceits and dangers. No body has ever grasped it. No one has ever mastered it.

And what you have proposed in this thread may be nothing more than your HEART felt convictions that may have enough basis of truth as a two-legged bar stool.

One wise piece of advice states, the heart is deceptive ABOVE all else and should not be trusted.

What dangers?

It has nothing to do with my heart. It has to do with actual experience while most of the "danger" is nothing more than parroting from people that really are mostly obsessed with an abrahamic religion. It's easy to see why religions would create all these myths. I mean seriously. Why don't we aply a little logic here. If there is a creator god, why would he create a vast spirit realm and give us ( some of us) the ability to tune into it ony to populate it with all these "evil" monsters that can hurt us and lead us astray.

At least misty below has an ecology attatched to it.... This "deceptive evil" rhetoric, in my eyes, is nothing more than religous hand me downs.

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I agree, the spiritual world is not one to easily doubt when you have experienced it for yourself, seen what is there to be seen, spoken with the entities to be spoken with. Unlike the physical world, the spirit realm has truth. But similar to the physical realm, the spirit realm has dark entities as well. These dark entities might not necessarily be EVIL. It could be their intrinsic nature to be "dark" spirits..just like a spider devouring a pretty butterfly is not considered evil, because it needs to eat in order to survive. So it is the same with "dark" spirits. There is a big gap between the dark spirits and the truly what you call "evil" spirits.

Yes...an ecology. Perhaps. Or even opposed to humans, but not evil. Much like 2 opposing parties at war always calls the other evil.

Let's say there is a spiritual/multidimentional component to a virus. This virus infects humans. A shaman who can see such things and dosnt really know about the physical world component might see a virus as an evil spirit.

I'm not sure I believe in these big swooping NEGs misty. What does "dark" even mean in the spirit world. It seems more like lak of control to me. We carry with us an instinct to guess the lion in the grass. It's an animal instinct. Across the veil is a deep mysterious place wether one believes it to be actual deep reality or just deep inside of our minds. It's natural to attach a lot fear to the unknown. In my adventures, I have come to understand that any darkness I have encountered is my own. Once personal responsibility for negativity is taken, it goes away, and worlds of new experiences await. Carrying this constant fear is crippling for growth.

Anyway those are my thoughts. abrahamics think I'm deceived by the devil because that's what they are taught. To bad. A religion cannot have people that have a personal relationship with the great spirit with no church, book, or leader as a medium... It's really bad for business. My ancestors (native Americans), in deed, everyone's ancestors have a along history of integrating the spirit world into their lives. Sure they believed in evil spirits, but the shaman of old considered them more like pests ( bugs...) than grand scheming evil. In that context, when Somone was Ill, it served them well. They would use plants and other methods to dispell the pest as best they could or lessen its damage on a person.

Much of their healing was also psychological. Quite a number of shamanic techniques have been adopted as modern psychotherapys under different names and contexts of course.

Edited by Seeker79
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This "deceptive evil" rhetoric, in my eyes, is nothing more than religous hand me downs.

:nw::tu::tsu::clap:

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Still no success?

Would literally fall of my chair laughing if you did it and came on here begging for help. It would make my day. lol

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Move to Old Louisville...plenty of demons, bed-bugs and sodomist.

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Still no success?

Would literally fall of my chair laughing if you did it and came on here begging for help. It would make my day. lol

Mine also..... :tu:

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What dangers?

It has nothing to do with my heart. It has to do with actual experience while most of the "danger" is nothing more than parroting from people that really are mostly obsessed with an abrahamic religion. It's easy to see why religions would create all these myths. I mean seriously. Why don't we aply a little logic here. If there is a creator god, why would he create a vast spirit realm and give us ( some of us) the ability to tune into it ony to populate it with all these "evil" monsters that can hurt us and lead us astray.

At least misty below has an ecology attatched to it.... This "deceptive evil" rhetoric, in my eyes, is nothing more than religous hand me downs.

The dangers of being misled into false beliefs, believing in something that is not only false but dangerous. Believing in spiritual matters that are intentionally leading you down the wrong path, encouraging and giving you a false impression all is well. But it is not, it is opening doors and one is becoming a medium or a conductor or conduit (collect the all eggs in one basket, deceiving and being deceived). The reason, to mislead people away from genuine spiritual truth and their salvation and get them absorbed into quackery and silliness... into New Age self realization and neo-shamanism.

How do we know it is God that gives people the ability to tune into this vast spiritual realm (if they indeed tune into this vast spiritual realm)? And furthermore, what evidence can you present that you yourself can tune into this vast spiritual realm?

You claim there is no such things as demons or evil entities, how do we know you even tuned into the spiritual realm or even contacted spirits? For all we know, you could be self-delusional if not a self invention of your public image?

Now just bear with me a moment if your are the former than maybe you should see a doctor but if you are the latter than you are a most dishonest human being the perfect instrument to be used by evil entities to put naive gullible people who are seeking self re-enforcement, New Age self realization, and positive thinking under your thrall (and their's *the evil entities* because they are using you to perform their will in order to deceive others.)

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The dangers of being misled into false beliefs, believing in something that is not only false but dangerous. Believing in spiritual matters that are intentionally leading you down the wrong path, encouraging and giving you a false impression all is well. But it is not, it is opening doors and one is becoming a medium or a conductor or conduit (collect the all eggs in one basket, deceiving and being deceived). The reason, to mislead people away from genuine spiritual truth and their salvation and get them absorbed into quackery and silliness... into New Age self realization and neo-shamanism.

How do we know it is God that gives people the ability to tune into this vast spiritual realm (if they indeed tune into this vast spiritual realm)? And furthermore, what evidence can you present that you yourself can tune into this vast spiritual realm?

You claim there is no such things as demons or evil entities, how do we know you even tuned into the spiritual realm or even contacted spirits? For all we know, you could be self-delusional if not a self invention of your public image?

Now just bear with me a moment if your are the former than maybe you should see a doctor but if you are the latter than you are a most dishonest human being the perfect instrument to be used by evil entities to put naive gullible people who are seeking self re-enforcement, New Age self realization, and positive thinking under your thrall (and their's *the evil entities* because they are using you to perform their will in order to deceive others.)

Hogwash. Ambush, seriously. Im neither dishonest, nor insane. I can understand why people would think either. But the journey has been apart of my life for quite sometime now. The tradition extends far beyond abrahamic religions. Long long before they were even around. It's quite difficult for me to take middle eastern mythology seriously other than extensions of their own lore. It's about as real to me as Greek mythology.

By what criteria, do you judge the "wrong path". What experience do you have with it? Here why don't you see for yourself, and once again I invite anyone willing to try to step out if their box. I'll be right here to help if I can my pals the "evil" entities and all.

My tutorial is the second post

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=219629&st=0

Edited by Seeker79

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The dangers of being misled into false beliefs, believing in something that is not only false but dangerous. Believing in spiritual matters that are intentionally leading you down the wrong path, encouraging and giving you a false impression all is well. But it is not, it is opening doors and one is becoming a medium or a conductor or conduit (collect the all eggs in one basket, deceiving and being deceived). The reason, to mislead people away from genuine spiritual truth and their salvation and get them absorbed into quackery and silliness... into New Age self realization and neo-shamanism.

How do we know it is God that gives people the ability to tune into this vast spiritual realm (if they indeed tune into this vast spiritual realm)? And furthermore, what evidence can you present that you yourself can tune into this vast spiritual realm?

You claim there is no such things as demons or evil entities, how do we know you even tuned into the spiritual realm or even contacted spirits? For all we know, you could be self-delusional if not a self invention of your public image?

Now just bear with me a moment if your are the former than maybe you should see a doctor but if you are the latter than you are a most dishonest human being the perfect instrument to be used by evil entities to put naive gullible people who are seeking self re-enforcement, New Age self realization, and positive thinking under your thrall (and their's *the evil entities* because they are using you to perform their will in order to deceive others.)

Ambush Bug, I think you are overkilling it. This discussion was ended long time back.

Seeker agrees to the the possibility that demons exist and that he may have been decieved by them and agrees that he doesn't have any proof that demons and evil spirits don't exist.

He confessed to this in this very thread:

I do not have full knowledge of the great mystery all I can do is call it how I see it. Might some demon have pulled the wool over my eyes... maybe. Might they be hideing from me... Maybe. Somehow I doubt it. And yes it's just an opinion.

im sorry I don't have any proof demons and evil spirits don't exist

He accepts the possibility that his beliefs may be wrong. What's left to argue after that? Are you seeking to make him admit that his beliefs are wrong and yours are right? Then that's not happening.

The clash between Transcendental Monotheism and Paganism/Polytheism/Pantheism is not new. Transcendental Monotheism and the idea of a spiritual evil is not limited to Abrahamic religions or "Middle Eastern Mythologies". It was there in many other societies throughout history. It's illogical to assume that throughout the history of mankind no one ever believed in the trasncendental God and a spiritual evil and that they came up with this idea only a few thousand years back. Moreover it is self-contradictory to claim at one hand that the belief in demons is "primitive" and "guessing a lion in the grass" and then to claim that the idea was invented in the middle east only a few thousand years back.

Let others assume that they are a part of God and that demons are a part of those who differ from them. It's not going to change anything. To each his own beliefs.

This debate has been going on for thousands of years. And it will go on. A few posts in a thread on the internet is not going to change anything. Lets acknowledge that everyone is entitled to his beliefs and move on.

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I do not have proof that demons don't exist because it's impossible to have proof that any thing dosnt exist other than the lak of proof.

This is hilarious to me, because we are talking about spiritual entities that neither of us can proove do exist? Yet you are asking for "proof" that they are not evil.

I bet the skeptics are rolling over this one.

I do have proof.... For me. Personal discovery is only annecdotal which dosnt constitute proof. One has to decide if they believe in a spirit world or not, then trust those who say we have been there on the dynamics of such a place, or not. As usual I always offer my help for others to discover for themselves.

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So you don't want to move on?

Well then...

I do not have proof that demons don't exist because it's impossible to have proof that any thing dosnt exist other than the lak of proof.

Other than lack of proof??? Sorry to burst your buble but even the lack of evidence does not constitute the evidence in this case. Absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.

This is hilarious to me, because we are talking about spiritual entities that neither of us can proove do exist? Yet you are asking for "proof" that they are not evil.

I am not asking for any proof. Neither do I believe that you are capable of providing any proof.

Yes but I am asking you to stop presenting your subjective experiences as objective truths. I am asking you to stop ridiculing other religions by relying on deceptive tactics and straw man arguments.

Sure some religions have cautioned their followers not to trust everything that comes from the spiritual realm. But you misrespresent this caution preached by these religions as "fear" just so you can have a counter argument by attacking the "fear" concept. This is a straw man argument. A fallacy. You do realize that, don't you?

I bet the skeptics are rolling over this one.

Yeah the skeptics must be rolling over this one like they should have when they heard you claiming time and again that you "interact with spirits".

I find it very strange though why the skeptics do not complain against your claims. When a person, a clueless one time experiencer, just says that he thinks he saw a spirit or a demon, then he is ridiculed by the skeptics to the extreme, yet when you make claims that you have not only seen the spirits but even "interacted" with them or that you "spoke to your ancestors' ghosts" and even held "galaxies in your hand"... claims that should be far more ridiculous to skeptics than the claim of that one-time clueless experiencer who thinks he just saw a spirit or a demon, yet the skeptics don't say a single word!!! How ironic!!! Why don't they complain and how do you manage to get away with all this? Oh yes... by pretending to be with them, by being their accomplice when they mock and humiliate other believers, so that these skeptics do not get in your way when you are recruiting gullible people in other threads to your new-age ideas. I'm sorry, but this pretentious act is called hypocritical sycophancy. And I'm sure many other people in this forum will have this same opinion about someone who acts this way.

(BTW have you considered entering the politics? I bet you would be an excellent politician. ;))

I do have proof.... For me. Personal discovery is only annecdotal which dosnt constitute proof.

Now you claim that you have "proof" for you??? If you have proof then it should be a fact for you and not "just an opinion" right? If you have proof (an undeniable one for you of course) then why do you accept the possibility that you may have been decieved by demons and what did you mean when you said "it's just an opinion"?

To quote you again:

I do not have full knowledge of the great mystery all I can do is call it how I see it. Might some demon have pulled the wool over my eyes... maybe. Might they be hideing from me... Maybe. Somehow I doubt it. And yes it's just an opinion.

So you accept the possibility that you may have been deceived by them yet you claim you have proof for you that they don't exist. Seems like self-contradiction to me.

So once again what is this proof for you that you claim you have?...

Aah... that you met demons and they turned into docile fairies? So it is a conclusive evidence for you that no malevolent entities exist in the entire spirit world?

How will you prove it to yourself that it wasn't a malevolent entity pretending to be docile so you let down your guard and begin trusting them? How will you prove it to yourself that all that even happened in real? Even if you can prove all that to yourself, how will you prove it to yourself that the realms you haven't traversed yet, do not hold malevolent entities? Are you claiming that you have traversed every nook and corner of the spiritual realm in search of malevolent entities for this to be your "fact" that no malevolent entity exists in the entire spiritual domain?

A person searches for a shark in his swimming pool and when he doesn't find any he concludes that no sharks exist in the entire world. Nice logic buddy! :tu:

You can't prove this to yourself leave alone to others yet you try to force your opinions on others. To present your subjective experiences as objective truths is a huge logical flaw.

One has to decide if they believe in a spirit world or not, then trust those who say we have been there on the dynamics of such a place, or not.

Trust whom? You???

Why should they trust an egostitic self-proclaimed guru?

What about other astral travelers who have also "been there", millions of them, who affirm the existence of malevolent entities in the spirit realm based on their experiences in astral?

What makes you superior over those astral travelers? Why should people discard the affirmation of those millions of travelers throughout history and follow your sujective experiences?

As other members have said before, for all we know you could be a fraud or insane or perhaps a shaman who went on a "journey" by licking a psychedelic toad.

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You are a funny man xing wi. It's pointless to argue with you about your fundamentalism. I argue with skeptics on these forums incessantly. Too much I'm afraid. The reason I persist is because I have an interest in providing some balance against all this fear mongring. The reason I have earned the respect of some skeptics is because im not a liar, nor do I have my head in the clouds, and some of them can spot it. I'm no guru in the sense of some Indian spirit master. I am however a teacher. Literalllly. I own a martial arts school. I teach a mode of character we call "and then some", which means we always go the extra mile to assist, offer help, be available, and to never give up on your principals. I wouldn't be much of teacher if I did not practice this now would I? So what I offer my help to others. I would consider it more egotistical to be offended by that. But trust me it's not a guru like offer. It's more like a martial arts instructor offering his help on how to deal with bullies.

You can continue to rant and preach, you cannot proove negatives, admiting I could be wrong is a strength in logic not a weakness, and I will continue to speak up every time I hear unfounded crap about demons. Why? because it is so very damaging to people. I am experienced at the altered states, I don't take drugs, and I have learned through hard earned practice and discovery that DEMONS, NEGs, Evil spirits, are usually misinterpretation of fear based psychology or myth. I don't care who disagrees with me. People are tortured and die over this silliness, lives ruined, and fear based thinking perpetuated.

Tell me this. How do you know you are not deceiving your self?

Show me and Sakari a demon xing wi. Sakari won't even see it, and if I do, I will have it by its spine and dangle it I front of you and show you it's the puppet that you have given life to through your own anima.

Edited by Seeker79
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Let people judge for themselves if I'm some liar or deceived by ....."demons".

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?app=blog&module=display&section=blog&blogid=2493&showentry=26579

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You are a funny man xing wi. It's pointless to argue with you about your fundamentalism. I argue with skeptics on these forums incessantly. Too much I'm afraid. The reason I persist is because I have an interest in providing some balance against all this fear mongring. The reason I have earned the respect of some skeptics is because im not a liar, nor do I have my head in the clouds, and some of them can spot it. I'm no guru in the sense of some Indian spirit master. I am however a teacher. Literalllly. I own a martial arts school. I teach a mode of character we call "and then some", which means we always go the extra mile to assist, offer help, be available, and to never give up on your principals. I wouldn't be much of teacher if I did not practice this now would I? So what I offer my help to others. I would consider it more egotistical to be offended by that. But trust me it's not a guru like offer. It's more like a martial arts instructor offering his help on how to deal with bullies.

You can continue to rant and preach, you cannot proove negatives, admiting I could be wrong is a strength in logic not a weakness, and I will continue to speak up every time I hear unfounded crap about demons. Why? because it is so very damaging to people. I am experienced at the altered states, I don't take drugs, and I have learned through hard earned practice and discovery that DEMONS, NEGs, Evil spirits, are usually misinterpretation of fear based psychology or myth. I don't care who disagrees with me. People are tortured and die over this silliness, lives ruined, and fear based thinking perpetuated.

Tell me this. How do you know you are not deceiving your self?

Show me and Sakari a demon xing wi. Sakari won't even see it, and if I do, I will have it by its spine and dangle it I front of you and show you it's the puppet that you have given life to through your own anima.

This has happened many times. Every time I confront you with your fallacies and your erroneous thinking, you use some evasive tactics to cop out. I put forward some simple questions that require straight forward answers and instead of answering my questions you say it is "pointless" to argue about my "fundamentalism". We are not discussing my "fundamentalism". We are discussing the existence of malevolent entities in the astral domain, entities whose existence has been affirmed by so many astral travelers.

How do I know that I am not deceiving myself? You mean how do I know what I saw was real and not a projection of my mind? That depends on how you define reality. What is reality to you Seeker? How real are your spirits? How real is your journey? How real is the astral world to you? In fact how real is the physical world to you? And how real is your own existence to you?

Please don't play this cetasika and maya/illusion card on me. Trust me, you don't want to do that especially when you are aware of where I am from and what I have been seeking all these years. ;). The grass is greener on the other side. I can't figure out why you westerners are so fond of eastern religious philosophies without ever realizing the dark truths beneath them. Are you even aware of the roots of tantricism and taoism/buddhism. If you are reading anything on that, I suggest you read with that its critiques as well. Trust me you don't want to go down that road. You will begin questioning your own existence. Besides, the eastern schools are not the only ones to speak on astral. Are you aware of sephirots of Judaism and Lataif-e-sitta of Sufism. The very fact that there is so much variation and so many interpretations puts into question the authority of any one school of thought.

I do not claim to be a conjurer of spirits. I have never summoned them so I cannot show a demon to the OP. But if you browse a few pages back you will see that I have suggested him a scientific model he can shape his trials with to have satisfactory evidence for himself and for others. It will not prove the non-existence of spirits in itself but it will surely prove the degree or efficacy of a ritual or a method of summoning spirits. And that is more relevant to this topic that is "How do I invite...". That could be a good start that could lead him to more well-designed scientific investigative methods. Now it is upto him if he wants to do his investigation in a scientific manner or not. I am an astral traveler myself, but I did not advise him on the subject because it is not a definitive method to encounter spirits. In several of my astral experiences I found myself in total solitude, me as the only creation. So I don't think it is a sure way of encountering any spirits in that state.

So now, shall we start from where we left? You haven't answered any of my questions. I will repeat them once again (with a few more added):

1. You claim that you have evidence for you that no malevolent entities exist in the entire spiritual domain. Can you explain your evidence? If it is based on your experience how did you prove it to yourself that the realms you haven't traversed yet, do not hold any malevolent entities? How did you bypass the impossibility of proving the negative?

2. You also present your subjective experiences as objective truths. You have stressed many times that there are no demons in astral presenting it as a universal truth. Even if you haven't encountered any or you encountered some that turned docile, it does not mean that there aren't any malevolent entities in the entire spiritual realm . I accuse you of relying on hasty generalization fallacy. Please defend yourself?

3. You seem to know that you can't prove a negative. Yet you have said many times in this thread that the OP has proved that there are no demons at least in the physical realm. Even I believe that to large extent, but making a conclusive statement (like a fact) about this requires an evidence. You made a universal statement about a negative. What evidence do you have for this negative? Also, if you knew that you can't prove a negative, then your statements will be a form of hypocrisy. I accuse of intentionally relying on bootlicking to further your new age agenda. Defend yourself please?

4. You also ask people to trust you and follow you in this matter. But are you aware that thousands of astral travelers alive today would disagree with you (including me ;))? Thousands who affirm the existence of malevolent entities in the astral domain irrespective of their religious affiliation? If you count them... East Asian, Indian, Mediterranean, African and Western astral travelers and shamans throughout history, their numbers should surpass millions. What superiority do you claim over those millions of astral travelers? What makes you the authority on the subject?

5. You claim that there are only benevolent spirits in astral and that they want humans to wake up so they are prodding them to rise above their animal instincts and that your spirits have free will and are concerned about the benefit of humanity. You also claim that they have a goal concerning humanity… a global awakening. You also claim that you interact with these spirits and they have even taught you in astral. My question to you is what if someone among humans gets in their way nof achieving their goal of global awakening. Is it possible then that your spirits will ask you to harm or kill that person for the sake of this "greater good" of global awakening only for the benefit of humanity? If it is not even remotely possible, can you prove why it is not possible? Give evidence please?

Awaiting your response.

Please don't use any evasive tactics this time. I want your response for every question. Of course there will be a few more follow ups for you. Thank you. :)

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For the 5th question, if you are wondering how a person can become an obstacle in your spirits' goals, then lets say by stopping other people from "interacting" with them, by stopping people from learning full concious astral projections, publishing books criticizing the "aweking" itself... and so on..... the possibile scenarios are unlimited.

As for the link to your blog that you posted... sorry but it is your own personal experience and a subjective one of course, so people cannot decide if you are a liar or decieved by demons.

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I will attempt to keep up with your rants, simply out of morbid curiosity to where it might lead. I have never seen such a jumbled mess of arguments in my entire life ... this has become interesting. Do not expect me to dive into every statement and fallacy you create. I type on the tiny iPhone, and when we encounter the expanding arguments phenomenon, I become apathetic. So don't mistake apathy for evasiveness. The format presented numbered and colored is easier to address if not specific, so I'll give it a shot.

***** cracks knuckles*****

1) first off let's be perfectly clear. All of this is subjective in nature. If we were arguing about elephants, we might have some objectivity to anchor to, so this inscesant whining about evidence when discussing an entirely subjective mode of inquiry ( the journey) is silly. Even being a practitioner myself I find it funny and useless when discussing some kind o frame work in which to argue points about it.

I have formed my opinion based of two sets of evidences. 1) experience 2) critical thinking. Now before you criticize me of being absolute statements, I used to tutor writtiing papers and makeing arguments. One of my professors pounded passive voice writing out of my writing habits. As such when makeing an argument about most anything I don't use phrases like "I think" " in my opinion" "wouldas, couldas, shouldas," an range of other passive voice style statements. This is weakness in argumentative writing. Unfortunately to rest of the weary public it puts them off, makes it seem like I'm trying to be authortative, or simply makeing absolute statements where there can be non. As a rule of thumb so one does not fall Ito this trap, one should imagine a passive voice statement at the beginning of every sentence. For example. ----it is my opinion that there are no such things as evil entities---- if I eliminate passive voice my sentence reads ---there are no such things as evil entities--- in arguing the first statement is weak and attempting to tiptoe around sensitivities, the second statement is strong. If I were editing your arguments I would first go through your work and eliminate all passiveness. One might think that it would be easy to simply not approach these things like I would when writing an argumentative paper. But it's not for me. It's a habit. I spent far to many hours getting paid to poor over papers and eliminate these tendencies.

Now. In all my experiences every negative encounter I have ever had I have been able to take control of said entity or eliminate it entirely. Critically thinking tells me that if these were "demons" that I would be the inferior of the encounter. I'm not. I own the environment. I can get into a myriad of examples, but I already linked you to one. Then, there is the Mara meditation. This sinks you fully into your anima. One may call it decending into the "---lower planes--" I took control over that to. I can do it while remaining fully concious. It's not fun. But mastering your anima shouldn't be.

More critically thinking. Why on earth would the great spirit create a vast spirit realm and populate it with all these evil entities. Please. There is not a shred of logic behind it.

I also teach the journey to others, and help others with altered state issues. I have had tremendous success helping people to overcome what traditionally is viewed as "evil spirit" attacks. Mostly by leading them to take responsibility for it. Logic tells me, if they were real "demons" I would not be able to do this. My methods would not work. So in this sense, yes I have objective evidence, I have thank you letters from people that have risen above their "demons". Might there be some dark malevolent entity leading me down some dark path of uncertainty....... Mabey...... But if I was haveing those kinds of thoughts, I would consider myself a paranoid dellusional and ask my doc for theorizene. I lived a blessed and spiritual life. I have pretty much every thing a man can hope for. I'm not in some demon controlled illusion. It's completely unfounded to even consider such a thing. And if it all came crashing down tomorrow, I'm not going to blame demons. The only demon in my life right now Is the IRS.

Tell me xingwi... How can I possibly believe in demons and still consider myself a decent thinker?

2) sorry I over did it part of the answer here is above. I'm not generalizing anything. No evidence of something is solid evidence against it. again how can I possibly think something exists when I it's nowhere to be seen or detected. I'm open minded enough to reconsider my position upon further evidence, but until then I am forced to call it how I see it.

3) Reread the part about passive voice. I'm sure Sakari is perfectly willing to supply the myriad of conditions people have thought were demons when truly they are merely physiological and or psycological conditions. There are threads here on UM that have already covered this ground. I'm in a position to take it a bit further. I am well versed in the altered states, the "demons" there are merely constructs of internal conflicts ( one type) and that part of us which still is an animal ( the lizard brain). It's prooven that in altered states different parts of the brain communicate better. The right and the left start to form a unit. This is why binural beats is helpful at syncining up the brain. There are even tones that are called hemisyncs. This same concept is also the basis for shamanic drumming, and a psychotherapy call EMDR ( eye movement desentisization and reprocessing). a process really stolen from shaman, but that is another story. The point being is that we are still animals. I believe ( see that passive voice there just for you) we are spirits and animals and these two opposing forces are waring with each other for the actions of the mind.

4) what makes any of them an authority? I'm certainly not. Who is the authority? The Roberts? ( Robert Monroe, Robert Bruce) are they authorities because they write books? Are we working on pleural of Annecdote here? I told you. I call I how I see it. That's all. I have the advantage of being a modern college educated astral traveler with an interest in science, and a driven personality. I have the opertunity to apply real logic and scrutanty to the altered states. I'm not some skeptic who has never had a confirmation experience, nor am I some Indian guru who smokes weed all day. Even now I am working an angle to get my ass in an MRI machine while projecting. It will be a while, but I'm slowly Getting to know probably the only scientist on earth that can make it happen. Did I mention how driven I am ;).

5) anything is possible xingwi. One can only look to likely hoods. If something asked me to kill Somone, again, I would seek thorizene. This sounds like paranoid delusion to me. If your god asked you to kill Somone would you do it? Remember Abraham. I certainly would not. I'd tell them and god to get Somone else. Fortunately I don't think any of this is based in reality. But I'm sure others reading this think non of it is and we are all delusional :). The times I ---------thought--- I was with the great spirit ( I'm splitting my lip here with passive voice, I hope you are getting it now. I would have written "the times I was") the calm a pure innocent love was far beyond all of these agendas.

Can you admit that it might be possible that evil being might create a world religion like Christianity so that it can cause carnage upon the earth? If I were a highly intelligent malovolant creature, I would have a number of religions that I started to war agains each other and cause suffering. I would create the ruse that each religion was the true religion and set them against each other for ****s and giggles. I don't think I would send my underlings to go deceive some suburban dad into thinking I don't exist. Much more carnage and suffering in religion.

People can decide whatever the wish. Indeed. This is exactly what will happen. All of this is subjective. All of it is based on personal experience. Your trying to be scientific, when non of this at the moment is related to science. Indeed, the empiricists reading this are laughing their heads off right now at both of us.

Your turn. Can you make a case the demons do exist? No cop outs please.

Sakari has made a good one in the physical stand point that they don't. And has gone some extra miles to experience himself.

I think I have made a good case from the metaphysical and internal Mind/spirit stand point and have gone to great lengths to explore here.

Where are your evidences?

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We are discussing the existence of malevolent entities in the astral domain, entities whose existence has been affirmed by so many astral travelers.

So many 'astral travelers' are predisposed to interpret something they don't understand as evil or malevolent, and likely are self fulfilling their own fears. If you believe 'astral travel' is a trip into the mind, then you would be entering your own playground in these visits. You would be at the mercy of your own imagination, hopes, dreams, and fears alike.

There are aspects of ourselves we encounter every day, conscious and unconsciously, in waking and dream-like states. Whether you want to label these undesirable and scary parts 'evil' is up to the person. But I don't think such labels are necessary, or helpful.

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I will attempt to keep up with your rants, simply out of morbid curiosity to where it might lead.

You still haven't realized where this is going? I am pulling you off your high horse and we both fall. ;) Because I am sick and tired of your arrogance, and you claiming to be a "prophet" of these "global awakening" inspirations.

I have formed my opinion based of two sets of evidences. 1) experience 2) critical thinking. Now before you criticize me of being absolute statements, I used to tutor writtiing papers and makeing arguments. One of my professors pounded passive voice writing out of my writing habits. As such when makeing an argument about most anything I don't use phrases like "I think" " in my opinion" "wouldas, couldas, shouldas," an range of other passive voice style statements. This is weakness in argumentative writing. Unfortunately to rest of the weary public it puts them off, makes it seem like I'm trying to be authortative, or simply makeing absolute statements where there can be non. As a rule of thumb so one does not fall Ito this trap, one should imagine a passive voice statement at the beginning of every sentence. For example. ----it is my opinion that there are no such things as evil entities---- if I eliminate passive voice my sentence reads ---there are no such things as evil entities--- in arguing the first statement is weak and attempting to tiptoe around sensitivities, the second statement is strong. If I were editing your arguments I would first go through your work and eliminate all passiveness. One might think that it would be easy to simply not approach these things like I would when writing an argumentative paper. But it's not for me. It's a habit. I spent far to many hours getting paid to poor over papers and eliminate these tendencies.

You've got to be kidding me now. So you are saying that you are entitled to change the statements like:

"I haven't seen any demons yet or those I have seen I have conquered"

To something absolute like:

"There are no demons" OR "The only demons are us"

changing the entire meaning just because you spent far too many hours getting paid to "eliminate such tendencies"???

This is hilarious.

Come on Seeker I was expecting a much better excuse from you.

So now you admit that you don’t even have proof for you, right? About the non existence of demons in the entire spiritual domain. Proving a negative to yourself is as impossible as proving it to others. So when you said in post #1817 that you had proof for you, then were you lying? But then why did you say in post #1819 that you are not a liar?

Now. In all my experiences every negative encounter I have ever had I have been able to take control of said entity or eliminate it entirely. Critically thinking tells me that if these were "demons" that I would be the inferior of the encounter. I'm not. I own the environment. I can get into a myriad of examples, but I already linked you to one. Then, there is the Mara meditation. This sinks you fully into your anima. One may call it decending into the "---lower planes--" I took control over that to. I can do it while remaining fully concious. It's not fun. But mastering your anima shouldn't be.

Again a hasty generalization fallacy.

More critically thinking. Why on earth would the great spirit create a vast spirit realm and populate it with all these evil entities. Please. There is not a shred of logic behind it.

Why can't Malevolence to someone be the result of Free will. Free will created by God?

The same logic applies to: Why would God create humans to wage wars and commit crimes against each others on earth? Tell me now.

Remind you, there is no such thing as absolute evil race. No creation is absolutely evil. But when there is free will, there is bound to be a spectrum of characters and in that there are bound to be some members at the extremes. The term itself can be subjective to their interaction with some other creations. It is the way they interact with specific individuals/groups that reveals their intentions of benevolence or harm to those particular individuals/groups.

You attribute free will to your spirits yet claim that none of them can be malevolent. That is illogical imo.

I also teach the journey to others, and help others with altered state issues. I have had tremendous success helping people to overcome what traditionally is viewed as "evil spirit" attacks. Mostly by leading them to take responsibility for it. Logic tells me, if they were real "demons" I would not be able to do this. My methods would not work. So in this sense, yes I have objective evidence, I have thank you letters from people that have risen above their "demons". Might there be some dark malevolent entity leading me down some dark path of uncertainty....... Mabey...... But if I was haveing those kinds of thoughts, I would consider myself a paranoid dellusional and ask my doc for theorizene. I lived a blessed and spiritual life. I have pretty much every thing a man can hope for. I'm not in some demon controlled illusion. It's completely unfounded to even consider such a thing. And if it all came crashing down tomorrow, I'm not going to blame demons. The only demon in my life right now Is the IRS.

The word: "maybe" is such a relief. :)

But again the train of your reasoning is not on track. If you are not lying about your helping them out then maybe the ones you encountered, that thought they were troubled by demons, were not in reality. But that itself does not prove the non-existence of malevolent entities in the vast spiritual domain. Again you are using hasty generalization here.

Tell me xingwi... How can I possibly believe in demons and still consider myself a decent thinker?

Come on dude! Many scientists and philosophers, geniuses in human history believed in demons. I am not saying their belief adds any credibility to the existence of demons in itself. But accusing someone of not being a decent thinker just because he believes in something that you don't, is a bit arrogant imo.

2) sorry I over did it part of the answer here is above. I'm not generalizing anything. No evidence of something is solid evidence against it. again how can I possibly think something exists when I it's nowhere to be seen or detected. I'm open minded enough to reconsider my position upon further evidence, but until then I am forced to call it how I see it.

If you are speaking of the physical realm I agree with you to a large extent. But if it relates to your experiences in astral then you must say "I haven’t encountered real demons in astral yet". AND NOT "There are no demons in the astral domain". Why? because there are other astral travelers who witnessed them in astral irrespective of their religious beliefs.

But even the statement " I haven’t encountered real demons in astral yet " cannot be declared with certainty because there would always be a possibility that the ones you encountered were real and played a game with you so you could go and preach your new age concepts to people.

If you believe in the possibility of mine being the projections of my mind then the same degree of possibility applies to yours being real ones and deceiving you.

3) Reread the part about passive voice. I'm sure Sakari is perfectly willing to supply the myriad of conditions people have thought were demons when truly they are merely physiological and or psycological conditions. There are threads here on UM that have already covered this ground. I'm in a position to take it a bit further. I am well versed in the altered states, the "demons" there are merely constructs of internal conflicts ( one type) and that part of us which still is an animal ( the lizard brain). It's prooven that in altered states different parts of the brain communicate better. The right and the left start to form a unit. This is why binural beats is helpful at syncining up the brain. There are even tones that are called hemisyncs. This same concept is also the basis for shamanic drumming, and a psychotherapy call EMDR ( eye movement desentisization and reprocessing). a process really stolen from shaman, but that is another story. The point being is that we are still animals. I believe ( see that passive voice there just for you) we are spirits and animals and these two opposing forces are waring with each other for the actions of the mind.

Did you defend yourself here? I am accusing you of relying on deceptive tactics, sycophancy and lying to promote your agenda.

And if you think this is ad hominem attack, It isn't. You have yourself put forth your disposition in our hands for scrutiny when you said ""I am not a liar" in post#1819. When someone makes claims about his experiences in this forum his statements are scrutinized by the skeptics to see if he is lying about his experience. That is not ad hominem attack. That is unmasking. The same rule applies to you. You are not above those members.

What is a lie? A deliberate false statement while knowing the truth. And now you say you made absolute statements about those negatives because you wanted to eliminate the passive voice???

No matter how hard try to justify it, those absolute statements were against the truth and you knew it then. That's it.

Sorry, if that hurts you. I wanted to make a point that you are not a saint as you claim to be. If that hurts you, you can curse me and insult me in return so that we are even, I will not complain. I do not claim to be a saint and above other humans. You know my claims about demons, call me a liar likewise, I won't mind.

4) what makes any of them an authority? I'm certainly not. Who is the authority? The Roberts? ( Robert Monroe, Robert Bruce) are they authorities because they write books? Are we working on pleural of Annecdote here? I told you. I call I how I see it. That's all. I have the advantage of being a modern college educated astral traveler with an interest in science, and a driven personality. I have the opertunity to apply real logic and scrutanty to the altered states. I'm not some skeptic who has never had a confirmation experience, nor am I some Indian guru who smokes weed all day. Even now I am working an angle to get my ass in an MRI machine while projecting. It will be a while, but I'm slowly Getting to know probably the only scientist on earth that can make it happen. Did I mention how driven I am .

It is not plural of anecdote. It is inductive reasoning based on a large number of witnesses. Through which you will derive the likelihood of the existence of malevolent entities in the spiritual realm. Probabilistic of course but not fallacious.

5) anything is possible xingwi. One can only look to likely hoods. If something asked me to kill Somone, again, I would seek thorizene. This sounds like paranoid delusion to me. If your god asked you to kill Somone would you do it? Remember Abraham. I certainly would not. I'd tell them and god to get Somone else. Fortunately I don't think any of this is based in reality. But I'm sure others reading this think non of it is and we are all delusional . The times I ---------thought--- I was with the great spirit ( I'm splitting my lip here with passive voice, I hope you are getting it now. I would have written "the times I was") the calm a pure innocent love was far beyond all of these agendas.

You didn't see that coming. It was not about you following their suggestion. It was about the possibility of their harmful intentions regarding a specific individual or a group. But you gave me more than what I was seeking… your admittance of your determination to self-deception.

You say that you believe your spirits are real but when they will ask you to harm someone in "reality" you will seek a psychiatrist to convince yourself that they were not "real" just so you can turn away from that "reality"? Now tell me who is hell bent on "deceiving" oneself?

So now that you agree to the possibility of your spirits intending to harm such a person or a group….

So in that hypothetical situation, even if they have their own reasons to justify their actions for the greater good, their intentions are bad from the perspective of the person or group whom they wish to harm, right?

(Now forget about the specific intent to "have them killed" and take it to a more general level of just malicious intention towards that individual or group)

Now in the event that the person or the group learns about the malicious intentions of some of your spirits towards them through their contact with the spiritual world, do they have the right to call such spirits "malevolent"? If that happens in reality what is your objection to that when you agree to the possibility of them being malevolent towards a particular individual or a group? :)

Can you admit that it might be possible that evil being might create a world religion like Christianity so that it can cause carnage upon the earth? If I were a highly intelligent malovolant creature, I would have a number of religions that I started to war agains each other and cause suffering. I would create the ruse that each religion was the true religion and set them against each other for ****s and giggles. I don't think I would send my underlings to go deceive some suburban dad into thinking I don't exist. Much more carnage and suffering in religion.

Of course that is possible. But if you were an intelligent malevolent being why wouldn't you do both? Why wouldn’t you send false prophets and make false religions and then take the blame off yourself by spreading that you don't exist? Why would you publicize that you a scheming malevolent being exist? Both are possible but the latter is far more effective.

As for wars, personally, I don't think we need any evil spirits to wage wars. We are violent species by our nature. We find ways to fight, to dominate, to control. War is an attempt of one group to control the other and its resources. Each religion has been misused in this for political reasons. The very fact that there are so many denominations in any religion and each claiming its own salvafic exclusivity, proves it. I am not representing any particular religion here and that has nothing to do with the subject of discussion here that is the existence of malevolent entities in the spirit realm in itself (if not scheming at least). You claim that your ancestors contacted the spirits that inspired their religions. Yet look at their dark history. They waged wars against each other. Some even resorted to the barbaric headhunting, cannibalism, human sacrifices, all in the name of religion. Now can you tell me how your "benevolent" spirits managed to inspire all this?

Your turn. Can you make a case the demons do exist? No cop outs please.

Sakari has made a good one in the physical stand point that they don't. And has gone some extra miles to experience himself.

I think I have made a good case from the metaphysical and internal Mind/spirit stand point and have gone to great lengths to explore here.

Where are your evidences?

Ha Ha! don't worry about cop outs. I know what I am doing and where we are headed. ;)

Following your own logic, I can make a good case or even a better case. If the OP (as one individual) with his trials and their subjective outcomes can make a good case in the physical and you (as an individual) with your subjective experiences and a very small sample size (for objective evidence of thank you letters) can make a good case in the mind/spirit sense then the witnesses of a great number of astral travelers (far greater than the required sample size),and a random sample of course for variations in their religious beliefs, most of them "well versed" like you ;) , about their encounters and interactions with malevolent entities in the astral realm will make a far better case following the inductive reasoning if restricted to astral realm.

That, following your own logic for making a good case. But objectively speaking no one can prove anything regarding the existence or non-existence of malevolent entities in the physical realm. At least not for now. Neither you nor the OP nor I. Why? Because that would require incontrovertible evidence. And there is no such thing as incontrovertible evidence in this case. For the OP it is impossible because no one can prove a negative. For you it will be impossible for the same reason. And for me (although I do not ascribe physicality to demons and I consider them astral spirits and do not claim to be a conjurer but) if I bring someone who can manifest or show a demon to you, and you could see it, you would call it hypnosis or your hallucination and if an entire group could see it, you would call it group hypnosis, mass hysteria or even Folie à deux and would prefer to take the entire group to a psychiatrist rather than accepting that you saw something in real. There is always a way to circumvent the evidence for each one of us no matter where it comes from. :tu:

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So many 'astral travelers' are predisposed to interpret something they don't understand as evil or malevolent, and likely are self fulfilling their own fears. If you believe 'astral travel' is a trip into the mind, then you would be entering your own playground in these visits. You would be at the mercy of your own imagination, hopes, dreams, and fears alike.

There are aspects of ourselves we encounter every day, conscious and unconsciously, in waking and dream-like states. Whether you want to label these undesirable and scary parts 'evil' is up to the person. But I don't think such labels are necessary, or helpful.

That is exactly what an eastern school says about astral projection. Yet it is only a belief. There are so many variations so many interpretations that you cannot claim the authority of one school of thought over the other. But if you will ever have a full conscious astral experience you will be compelled to believe that it is something not limited to your mind, it is something that extends outside its realms. Even if you are a skeptic you will be compelled to rely at least on the universal consciousness theory if you don't admit that there are real beings in the astral plane. For many, the experience is not dream like but far more real, in fact more real than physical world itself.

Presently, both Seeker79 and I believe that the spirits we came across were not just the constructs of our minds and that has, admittedly, put both of us in a very vulnerable position. As Seeker79 has rightly said, from a skeptic's viewpoint both of us are freaks. :P

Edited by XingWi
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