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chessnovicer

Is the Zionism a threat?

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I have a number of close friends who are Jewish. I have never known them be nefarious or engaged in any global agenda. They are family oriented, decent and hardworking- qualities I think we would all want in citizens. Yet, as I have engaged others in forums such as this, I regularly encounter zionist fears.

I have been informed that the U.S. unmatched support for Israel financially and militarily as evidence of a zionist influence. However, I think this reflects poorly on the leadership of the U.S. more than it does on the pro-Israel Israeli, after all, a citizen supportive of her nation is natural to every nation-state.

So I ask you, can you explain to me (without being anti-Semitic) what is the Zionist threat, if any? I see pro-Israelis as no different than pro-American Americans, pro-Canadian Canadians, Pro-Britain British, etc.

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I would say the opposite, I know a 'reformist' in Europe who does a lot of leadership some in regards to Zionism...but a lot more expansive than that, does a tooon of work..I think part of it is certainly misrepresented. With knowing him in such a high position, even though I haven't talked with the man in a few months, I myself have seen no threats in that particular area. Though I could be wrong.

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I have a number of close friends who are Jewish. I have never known them be nefarious or engaged in any global agenda. They are family oriented, decent and hardworking- qualities I think we would all want in citizens. Yet, as I have engaged others in forums such as this, I regularly encounter zionist fears.

I have been informed that the U.S. unmatched support for Israel financially and militarily as evidence of a zionist influence. However, I think this reflects poorly on the leadership of the U.S. more than it does on the pro-Israel Israeli, after all, a citizen supportive of her nation is natural to every nation-state.

So I ask you, can you explain to me (without being anti-Semitic) what is the Zionist threat, if any? I see pro-Israelis as no different than pro-American Americans, pro-Canadian Canadians, Pro-Britain British, etc.

Expansionism mainly. That and lobbyists. The zionists also have people in high places in the media and banking circles among lots of other industries.

Arabs are semites so by it's strictest definition it is zionism that is anti semitic because more arabs are semites than jews by genetics. I don't think that is racist or anti semitic, if I'm wrong I stand corrected.

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So I ask you, can you explain to me (without being anti-Semitic) what is the Zionist threat, if any? I see pro-Israelis as no different than pro-American Americans, pro-Canadian Canadians, Pro-Britain British, etc.

In a nutshell - certain Zionists have unjust expansionist policies and influence other countries to put Israel’s welfare before their own. It is the fact they are so proficient and unscrupulous in this practice that singles them out from nationalists of other countries. That is to say, they end up brassing off more people than anyone else!

If the U.K. consistently bombed and blockaded Ireland whilst lobbying the U.S. to invade France then criticism would be directed at them too.

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I would say the opposite, I know a 'reformist' in Europe who does a lot of leadership some in regards to Zionism...but a lot more expansive than that, does a tooon of work..I think part of it is certainly misrepresented. With knowing him in such a high position, even though I haven't talked with the man in a few months, I myself have seen no threats in that particular area. Though I could be wrong.

This has been my experience as well. I know the Nazis tried to turn the German people against the Jews. I wonder if public opinion is being manipulated to influence the perception of Jews.

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If anything this man is trying to help the people...but what do I know -.-

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I have a number of close friends who are Jewish. I have never known them be nefarious or engaged in any global agenda. They are family oriented, decent and hardworking- qualities I think we would all want in citizens. Yet, as I have engaged others in forums such as this, I regularly encounter zionist fears.

I have been informed that the U.S. unmatched support for Israel financially and militarily as evidence of a zionist influence. However, I think this reflects poorly on the leadership of the U.S. more than it does on the pro-Israel Israeli, after all, a citizen supportive of her nation is natural to every nation-state.

So I ask you, can you explain to me (without being anti-Semitic) what is the Zionist threat, if any? I see pro-Israelis as no different than pro-American Americans, pro-Canadian Canadians, Pro-Britain British, etc.

The US stands behind Isreal because it prevents world war 3 . No one will launch a real military campaign against them with the US supporting them .

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The reason for the US support of Israel can be found not in politics but religion. Christians have long supported a Jewish Israel because they hope to fulfill biblical scripture. Even President Bush admitted at a religion gathering, support for Israel stemmed from his Christianity. There are Christian organizations world wide that help Jews in Israel...To them it fulfills scripture regarding the second coming. I don't see it as a Zionist plot, just one religions dealings with another...

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Expansionism mainly. That and lobbyists. The zionists also have people in high places in the media and banking circles among lots of other industries.

Arabs are semites so by it's strictest definition it is zionism that is anti semitic because more arabs are semites than jews by genetics. I don't think that is racist or anti semitic, if I'm wrong I stand corrected.

you're right Arabs are semites also.

To your central point, what is wrong with having friends in high places. Again, does this make them a threat?

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In a nutshell - certain Zionists have unjust expansionist policies and influence other countries to put Israel’s welfare before their own. It is the fact they are so proficient and unscrupulous in this practice that singles them out from nationalists of other countries. That is to say, they end up brassing off more people than anyone else!

If the U.K. consistently bombed and blockaded Ireland whilst lobbying the U.S. to invade France then criticism would be directed at them too.

Ok... You say unjust, as illegal??

But there is no evidence they have done anything illegal. Do you mean they have unfair access to power and national leaders, etc?

You also say they are profiencient. So are you suggesting we non-Jews should punish zionist for being too good at what they do?

And you accuse them of being unscrupulous but I am not aware of zionist being more unscrupulous that any other segment of the population.

I am genuinely trying to grasp the beef here. I am not asking questions here for the sake of asking them.

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The reason for the US support of Israel can be found not in politics but religion. Christians have long supported a Jewish Israel because they hope to fulfill biblical scripture. Even President Bush admitted at a religion gathering, support for Israel stemmed from his Christianity. There are Christian organizations world wide that help Jews in Israel...To them it fulfills scripture regarding the second coming. I don't see it as a Zionist plot, just one religions dealings with another...

ok... this is fair. But there was a plot there, I would say it was a Christian plot to build up Israel to bring about the second coming.

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Posted (edited)

ok... this is fair. But there was a plot there, I would say it was a Christian plot to build up Israel to bring about the second coming.

Or maybe it's simply good people helping each other in the fight against evil. But I could be wrong. The Second Coming and "Zionist" desire to control the world make more sense.

Edited by Pseudo Intellectual

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Ok... You say unjust, as illegal??

But there is no evidence they have done anything illegal. Do you mean they have unfair access to power and national leaders, etc?

Legality in international law can be a very fuzzy area. I mean “unjust” as in “unfair” – Zionist policies would not be viewed so negatively if not for the fact they achieve their aims to the obvious and severe detriment of other people.

You also say they are profiencient. So are you suggesting we non-Jews should punish zionist for being too good at what they do?

I’m suggesting that certain Zionist policies (the unjust and unscrupulous kind) deserve the criticism they receive.

And you accuse them of being unscrupulous but I am not aware of zionist being more unscrupulous that any other segment of the population.

It appears that the Mossad are heavily involved in furthering Zionist agendas. If you can find a current group who are on record as having carried out the same level of spying, infiltration, abduction, assassination, false flag and counter-intelligence operations then I’ll certainly reconsider the “unscrupulous” tag.

I am genuinely trying to grasp the beef here. I am not asking questions here for the sake of asking them.

I think your questions are very reasonable and I’m also trying to give genuine answers – I hold nothing against Israelis or Jewish people in general, just the policies.

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Posted (edited)

Or maybe it's simply good people helping each other in the fight against evil. But I could be wrong. The Second Coming and "Zionist" desire to control the world make more sense.

Can we agree that zionists are primarily concerned with the security of Israel and as such they would do what they can to ensure the safety of Israel?

If we can agree on that, then what have they done beyond that to suggest they want to control the world? In fact all the land Israel has acquired since its creation in 1948 has been the result of defensive wars. They have not pursued invasion and occupation, except after being attacked.

This is more than we can say for most world powers.

Edited by chessnovicer

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Legality in international law can be a very fuzzy area. I mean “unjust” as in “unfair” – Zionist policies would not be viewed so negatively if not for the fact they achieve their aims to the obvious and severe detriment of other people.

Fair can be a relative term.

I’m suggesting that certain Zionist policies (the unjust and unscrupulous kind) deserve the criticism they receive.

I agree with you but we could say the same about any national agenda. There are elements of American or any other country's agenda that is unscrupulous and unjust so why consider Israel - a relatively small country as far as world powers go- a threat?

It appears that the Mossad are heavily involved in furthering Zionist agendas. If you can find a current group who are on record as having carried out the same level of spying, infiltration, abduction, assassination, false flag and counter-intelligence operations then I’ll certainly reconsider the “unscrupulous” tag.

True. But they are intelligence and counterintelligence organization. If you use them, then off the top of my head the CIA and MI-6 comes to mind. I would say they are even much more unscrupulous.

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Posted (edited)

Can we agree that zionists are primarily concerned with the security of Israel and as such they would do what they can to ensure the safety of Israel?

Who are these Zionists you speak of? What exactly is a Zionist? Basically, I think the definition of Zionist is, "Someone who supports the establishment of a Jewish homeland." That's me, that's most Americans, and no, we don't put Israel's security ahead of every thing else.

If we can agree on that, then what have they done beyond that to suggest they want to control the world? In fact all the land Israel has acquired since its creation in 1948 has been the result of defensive wars. They have not pursued invasion and occupation, except after being attacked.

You are right. However, listen to the "anti-Zionists" and you'll see a trend. Quite a large number of them seem to believe "Zionists" are imperialists who control the West and whatnot.

Edited by Pseudo Intellectual

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Who are these Zionists you speak of? What exactly is a Zionist? Basically, I think the definition of Zionist is, "Someone who supports the establishment of a Jewish homeland." That's me, that's most Americans, and no, we don't put Israel's security ahead of every thing else.

You are right. However, listen to the "anti-Zionists" and you'll see a trend. Quite a large number of them seem to believe "Zionists" are imperialists who control the West and whatnot.

I don't think they are imperialists as I think you mean. They could genuinely feel they have a legal right but ultimately it is a spiritual right if any. Spirituality and politics don't mix. For supposed spiritual fighters on both sides dying in the name of God is not nice to see but when money is also brought into the equation it leaves a very bad taste.

I'm not sure how many americans as a percentage support zionism but I bet more respect the sanctity of human life, especially innocent children, whom Israel seems intent on targeting with it's choice of weaponry in the past.

Cut a deal Israel. Why won't they cut a deal? Then there is the ethical issue on Mossad. If they don't play fair then I will not think of them as fair. That's it. :sleepy:

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Fair can be a relative term.

So if the Israeli army came to your home and forced you to leave because they wanted the land, do you think that could be relatively fair? That’s what the Arabs in Palestine faced in 1948 during the creation of Israel and still do today to an extent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_exodus

I agree with you but we could say the same about any national agenda. There are elements of American or any other country's agenda that is unscrupulous and unjust so why consider Israel - a relatively small country as far as world powers go- a threat?

I don’t consider U.S. foreign policy to be any better than Israel’s. I would say that Israel is a greater source of friction, and thus receives greater criticism, due to the constant conflict caused by certain Zionist agendas since 1948.

True. But they are intelligence and counterintelligence organization. If you use them, then off the top of my head the CIA and MI-6 comes to mind. I would say they are even much more unscrupulous.

Anyone can say what they like off the top of their head but, when one takes a look, the considerable list of unscrupulous operations by the Mossad such as those I mentioned far outweighs anything on record attributed to American or British agencies.

I’ll give just one example that is confirmed – the Lavon Affair. In 1954, Jewish agents planted bombs in American and British owned targets in Egypt with the hope these attacks would be falsely blamed on Muslims. Can you name a confirmed CIA or MI6 operation of this type?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavon_Affair

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especially innocent children, whom Israel seems intent on targeting with it's choice of weaponry in the past.

This pictures describes it better:

israel_palestine_cartoon.gif

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So if the Israeli army came to your home and forced you to leave because they wanted the land, do you think that could be relatively fair? That’s what the Arabs in Palestine faced in 1948 during the creation of Israel and still do today to an extent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_exodus

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_lands#Scope_of_expulsion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_villages_depopulated_during_the_Arab-Israeli_conflict

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_villages_and_towns_depopulated_of_Jews_during_the_Holocaust

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Thank you for the interesting links. There were expulsions on both sides but it seems most people judge this would not have reached the level seen and indeed resulted in the ongoing situation today if not for the creation of the state of Israel. Also I’m not sure that former Nazi persecution of Jews is justification for current Jewish persecution of Arabs.

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Posted (edited)

Thank you for the interesting links. There were expulsions on both sides but it seems most people judge this would not have reached the level seen and indeed resulted in the ongoing situation today if not for the creation of the state of Israel. Also Im not sure that former Nazi persecution of Jews is justification for current Jewish persecution of Arabs.

It wouldn't have reached this state if the Ottoman empire hadn't fallen, absentee landlords hadn't sold most of the land to jews and if the surrounding arab nations, who were drawn up on the same map with the same pen on the same day, had accepted the partition of the tiny piece of the Ottoman province that was left in 1946 or not attacked en masse but that is all by the by.

As for 'current persecution of Arabs', you will have to be more specific for me to really comment.

Edited by Moon Monkey

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Anyone can say what they like off the top of their head but, when one takes a look, the considerable list of unscrupulous operations by the Mossad such as those I mentioned far outweighs anything on record attributed to American or British agencies.

I’ll give just one example that is confirmed – the Lavon Affair. In 1954, Jewish agents planted bombs in American and British owned targets in Egypt with the hope these attacks would be falsely blamed on Muslims. Can you name a confirmed CIA or MI6 operation of this type?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavon_Affair

Its not my goal to compare horror stories and gross indiscretions but few can compared to documented CIA acts (courtesy of FOIA). Anyway, to get the juices flowing you can start with this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_transnational_human_rights_actions

Cut a deal Israel. Why won't they cut a deal? Then there is the ethical issue on Mossad. If they don't play fair then I will not think of them as fair. That's it. :sleepy:

My sense is Israel would love to cut a deal. The problem is there is no one to cut a deal with. They even pulled out of Lebanon unilaterally... then pulled out of gaza, again unilaterally. Still, there is no concessions by their neighbors. What kind of deal do they have to make?

Who are these Zionists you speak of? What exactly is a Zionist? Basically, I think the definition of Zionist is, "Someone who supports the establishment of a Jewish homeland." That's me, that's most Americans, and no, we don't put Israel's security ahead of every thing else.

By Zionist, I mean Jewish nationalism - nationalism defines as ": loyalty and devotion to a nation; especially : a sense of national consciousness exalting one nation above all others and placing primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations or supranational groups" http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/nationalism

I am not referring to support of Israel. Never-the-less, even if you as an American chose to support Israel (not saying you do) over the United States does not make support of Israel a threat to world. I guess my question isn't really to you it is to those who view zionism as threat to the world.

The bottom line is I think most of us do not view zionism as a threat to the world, though it seems some are concerned about it being a threat to the Middle East region.

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I don't think they are imperialists as I think you mean. They could genuinely feel they have a legal right but ultimately it is a spiritual right if any. Spirituality and politics don't mix. For supposed spiritual fighters on both sides dying in the name of God is not nice to see but when money is also brought into the equation it leaves a very bad taste.

I'm not sure how many americans as a percentage support zionism but I bet more respect the sanctity of human life, especially innocent children, whom Israel seems intent on targeting with it's choice of weaponry in the past.

Cut a deal Israel. Why won't they cut a deal? Then there is the ethical issue on Mossad. If they don't play fair then I will not think of them as fair. That's it. :sleepy:

The UN tried to cut everybody a deal in 1947. the israelis accepted. the arabs did not and attacked the israelis.

this conflict would have been over a long time ago, but the arabs felt the need to wipe israel off the map for some reason. so they kept starting wars, that they always lost

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There is noone to make a deal with in Hamas because Mossad keep killing the commanders. I dn't claim to have all the facts but I'd like to see them start seriously talking about a two state solution again and set minds at ease that there are not excavations going on around the temple mount. It is that which could be the catalyst to increase hostilities. What's done is done but noe Israel is there they need to act as good neighbours and work with the Paelstinians. Long way off I know.

I think the argument that the Arab nations should have accepted a deal in 1947 is a bit unfair. We must see it in context and following the collapse of the Ottoman empire arabs were extremely suspicious of the west and especially secret societies. Zionism is closely linked with secret socieities so personally I don't blame them for being a bit suspicious.

It is not like zionism was a reaction to the Holocausr. It had been around at least fifty years and had popular support from the worlds elite from early on. If it had connections to CFR and RIIA then isn't it a strategic move on behalf of the wealthy and not strictly a great deal to do with judaism?

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