Pyramid Texts for Astral Travel

[SlimJim22]

Hey guys, been trying to dig deeper and found two links. The first mentions Hayk on a king list and has Hurrian kings also. It doesn't mean anything but they had very indian sounding names to me.

The second is a bit more speculative and makes connections with the astrological signs and a lot more if you explore a little. Still I hope some decent info can be gleened.

http://www.imninalu.net/kings02.htm

http://www.mazzaroth.com/ChapterFour/EvidenceOfAbram.htm

I went back and read one of Crystal Sages' links and it was most interesting about the Habiru who above all seem to be a sort of wandering nomadic tribe of no fixed abode but who were valued highly for fighting skill and intellect. Also, very wealthy... Is it me or does that sound a bit like Scythians.

I also found this on the Hallstatt culture who seem like a good avenue of enquiry for me.

http://www.visual-arts-cork.com/cultural-history-of-ireland/hallstatt-celtic-culture.htm

Edited June 3, 2010 by SlimJim22

[cormac mac airt]

Yes dating of the captivity is 7th century indeed but the dating of Abraham.. What between 2,200-1,500bce? Also, the Joshua I mentioned before, the first Hu pre-dates Abraham I am guessing, so we have hebrew connections as far as the British Isles from the bronze age. I presume this is tied in with phoenician mining operations in north wales.

So, the twelve tribes exist for a minimum of 800 years prior to the captivity but some of that time was spent at war with the Phillistines, the Elamaites and the Amorites to name a few. From Puzzlers information a link between hebrews and the Hittites seems reasonable. One suggestion for the origins of the Hittites is the sons of Heth. Heth is the fourth son of Canaan the cursed son of Ham and grandson of Noah. The assertion some are making is that the canaanites were under the other tribes in some capacity. I eman to say that they allegedly served them as in the tribes of the sons of Japheth and Shem. I don't really know what relevance this has but just because the captivity caused a quicken in migrations it is not to say that the tribes of Israel had not spread earlier. We have already discussed, though inconclusively, the role of the milesians in Iberia and the western isles, both being importnat to the tin trade. It is not an easy thing to pin down clearly but I think our perceptions of hebrews as jews is somewhat skewed by the literature that came out of Babylon.

The idea in principle is that the celts, hebrews, aryans, scythians etc held something in common in spite of racial and lingual differences. I'll shut up now but that is what I am getting at if anyone missed it.

I had never heard of Athamas so thanks heaps Puzz.

Outside of the Biblical narrative, there is no evidence for an historical Abraham. Nor is there any evidence of an historical Noah, as separate from Utnapishtim, Atrahasis or Ziusudra. Which would, in any case, make him either Sumerian, Assyrian or Babylonian but not Hebrew, as there is no evidence for the existance of anyone known as Hebrew from c.2700 BC.

Hu Gadarn

Iolo Morganwg

Can you provide evidence that the Welsh had any legends of Hu the Mighty before Iolo Morganwg, the renowned forger, came up with him while addicted to Laudanum?

I think our perceptions of hebrews as jews is somewhat skewed by the literature that came out of Babylon.

It doesn't have anything to do with Babylon. For the most part they were Hebrews up until the time of David and Solomon, and then Israelites (for the northern kingdom) and Judahites (for the southern kingdom - from where the term JEWS originated, IIRC).

cormac

Edited June 4, 2010 by cormac mac airt

[SlimJim22]

Outside of the Biblical narrative, there is no evidence for an historical Abraham. Nor is there any evidence of an historical Noah, as separate from Utnapishtim, Atrahasis or Ziusudra. Which would, in any case, make him either Sumerian, Assyrian or Babylonian but not Hebrew, as there is no evidence for the existance of anyone known as Hebrew from c.2700 BC.

Hu Gadarn

Iolo Morganwg

Can you provide evidence that the Welsh had any legends of Hu the Mighty before Iolo Morganwg, the renowned forger, came up with him while addicted to Laudanum?

It doesn't have anything to do with Babylon. For the most part they were Hebrews up until the time of David and Solomon, and then Israelites (for the northern kingdom) and Judahites (for the southern kingdom - from where the term JEWS originated, IIRC).

cormac

Thanks for the links. I wasn't aware Iolo was addicted to laudenom but it may well explain his character.

Here is a link of my own that seems pretty rational and credible.

http://www.lugodoc.demon.co.uk/Druids/DRUIDS.htm

The connection with celts and hebrews may be hard to prove but from a philosphical point of view the philosophy of the druids differed very little from that of Pythagoras, the Brahmins and the Taoists. Oh and don't forget the link with the Chaldeans. This is perhaps the strongest link between hebrews and the druids but it is by no means conclusive.

My point about Babylon is that it is likely that the Torah was penned during captivity by the Levites. Because of this I am inclined to think that the writers could not be open about all they wanted to say and so used code and allegory and kept things deliberately ambiguous. That oral traditions existed and seemed to spread east and west leads me to think there may have been a common source and this is where the hebrews and before them the lines of Noah come into it.

I know there is no proof as such of Noahs existence but the fact that even today we use terms like semitic and hamitic makes me think there is a strong foundation for this being used. I looked into haplogroups a little and what I recall is that the most likely type for the 'hebrews' was 'I' but tbh I didn't get a lot of it. We are talking long periods of time for tribes to intermarry between the lines and for genes to mutate or whatever it is they do.

The point is whether these commonalities that I am speaking of connect with shamanism, mysticism or astral travel. I think there is a chance they do and I find this interesting and worthy of further study. If all the geographically distant places have identical symbology then that means to me that the secret knowledge moved from place to place or that all these cultures drew fom a common source like the universal mind.

Do you see any links between the Hallstatt and anyone I have mentioned? The river network of europe could have been a good way to travel for innovative wanderers.

[crystal sage]

I am struggling to find any sources, other than the tablets already mentioned, that date to before the 11th century CE. That is not to mean that they did not exist before that but it seems that they were not written down prior to this time. I imagine that it was because to record such things was forbade but when the very existence of the bards became threatened it became necessary to retain a permanent copy. Here is a nice link that makes some strong connection in my view. Interesting to note that the 'Ox' was the tribe of Ephraim.

http://www.biblesearchers.com/hebrewchurch/primitive/losttribesisrael8.shtml

I stumbled upon Hu the Mighty a while ago...

My link

E. Raymond Capt tells the story:

...HU GARDARN HYSCION (ISAACSON?) or "HU THE MIGHTY," led a party of settlers FROM ASIA MINOR TO BRITAIN. A DESCENDANT OF ABRAHAM, Hu the Mighty's coming to Britain provides one of the first recorded instances of the fulfillment of the prophecy found in Genesis 28:14; that the "seed" of Abraham would spread abroad, to the four points of the compass.

The Welsh TRIADS, or "traditional chronicles," give evidence of HU THE MIGHTY COMING FROM ASIA MINOR. In the Welsh Triad 4, we read that: "The FIRST of the THREE CHIEFTAINS who established the colony was Hu the Mighty, who CAME WITH THE ORIGINAL SETTLERS. They came over the Hazy Sea from the summer country, which is called DEFROBANI, that is where Constinoblys now stands." -- Stonehenge and Druidism. Artisan Sales, Thousand Oaks, Ca. 1979. P. 75.

Who was this Hu Gardarn -- "Hu the Mighty," a descendant of Abraham? Herman L. Hoeh reveals the answer --

When and how did the Children of Israel migrate to WESTERN EUROPE? The answer is found in Cymbric or WELSH HISTORY.

His reputed accomplishments reminded me of the Yellow Emperor..

My link

[crystal sage]

Been exploring the 3rd Eye... Melatonin link.. about how Jesus was given Gold, frankincense, myrrh

My link

It appears that these Wisemen's gifts enhance the pineal gland.. the Melatonin production.

Increased Melatonin can enhance the AStral Travel ability...

Just thought I'd put it out there seeing it could be relevant to your original exploration.

The Ancient Egyptians imported large amounts of myrrh as far back as 3000 B.C. They used it to embalm the dead, as an antiseptic, and burned it for religious sacrifice.

My link

Ancient Egyptian Use of Frankincense

The Egyptian queen Hathsepia (15th century B.C.) had an inscription carved on her tomb which refers to frankincense; in fact, the ancient Egyptians spent a substantial amount of money importing frankincense from the Phoenicians because of its perceived value. In religion, it was burned in temples. Frankincense was also used in perfumes, medicines and cosmetics. It was used to fragrance clothing too.

As an incense, frankincense has been burned by many countries for religious reasons including Israel, India, China and throughout the Catholic Church. Today, frankincense is still used in many Christian, Jewish and Hindu ceremonies; it is capable of producing a calming influence, an aid to meditation and prayer.

My link

TWELVE OILS OF

ANCIENT SCRIPTURE

My link

Edited June 4, 2010 by crystal sage

[SlimJim22]

I stumbled upon Hu the Mighty a while ago...

My link

His reputed accomplishments reminded me of the Yellow Emperor..

My link

Thanks Crystal Sage, I see this is a topic that has been discussed here before and you well ahead of me in terms of research. I'm sorry if it is boring for some to go over the same ground sometimes. I have also come across the hop-of-israel and can see why there is some antagonism towards them. I try to maintain healthy skepticism but just because tales make some go a little does not mean that there is not value in what is mentioned. Science should just try and extract the good parts and history will be what it is. I would like to see more archeology done to see if any more tales could be verified but people are so quick to claim forgery or conspiracy I can understand why it is kept discreet.

The difference between many and some is that many want definite answers while the some appreciate many possibilities. It is often the immaterial that inspires matter. This is basic cognition, so in a sense by altering states of consciousness and experiencing the ancestral and universal consciously, inspiration could be embraced. That is why I reckon these guys were decent fighters, craftsmen, bards and builders of ships and stone temples. These were the major cereal producers to Greece so when Rome identifies these people as barbarians I think they are underestimating the true nature. They had gold, spices and anything else they needed traded from the east. It is quite feasable that they could also acquire frankinsence and myrh and perhaps some concoction helped in the process of dissoulution of self. We do not necessarily even need supernatural explanations but to speculate that spiritual experience was brought on by plants is a definite possibility. They had opportunity and motive so from that point of view the criteria of evidence is being dented. If accessing superconsciousness was attainable and it helped to understand how nature worked then this could have been applied to running a kingdom. I don't know how ancient china operated but India has had the caste system which is comparable to celtic society and the early israelites clearly had this strong tribal mentality. It is all very interesting from my perspective and good research for creative writing but it is a far cry from stating that this is the way it was and this should alter the political landscape in some way. These are just stories and with no proof to consider that is how they shall remain.

P.S CS, there were so many great links in those two threads you linked, I wish I had the time to read them all.

[SlimJim22]

Of all the possible connections I had never read a concise enough reasoning to wet my appetite when it came to Tarot but while looking into Iolo and John Aubrey I came across this and it connects it back to Egypt.

These three mothers must be a slight alteration of the only three single-sound Egyptian hieroglyphs that were birds: ’ (alef) the eagle (Egyptian vulture), w the quail chick, and m the owl. For these spell out the Logos, the Word, AUM, the letters of which ultimately (whether Egyptians knew it or not) stand for the three parts of the self. This is the primary mantra of the East and is found in the Huna term for the High Self, au-makua—‘utterly trustworthy parental pair’—which can also be interpreted as AUM-akua, ‘AUM-being’. It is also spelt by the suffixes of the names of the three ruffians in the Masonic drama: Jubela, Jubelo, and Jubelum. Harold W. Percival, in Thinking and Destiny, explains that for man the Logos is pronounced IAUM: the full vowel spectrum from front to back (from smile to pucker) in a nasal tone, resolving in the “mm” of pure sweetness. The I stands for the physical body in which the self dwells, without which it tends to pull self out of the body (it has indeed pulled Tibetan Buddhism out of its body, Tibet). This suggests the name of the transcendent Dionysus, IAO, and Christ’s ‘I am the alpha and the omega’: the vowels I-A-U as bardic symbols invoke (in order) the colors black-white-red, which are the three stages of alchemy, Nigredo-Albedo-Rubedo. For I is the vowel of ‘old moon’ winter, A of the new moon or birth of the year, and U of the full moon and summer.

http://www.tarotpedia.com/wiki/Bardic_origin_of_Tarot

I liked this bit too.

It is easy to see the relation of suits to worlds. Batons constitute the spokes of the original or first wheel: being the only suit symbol that is combustible, they are fire, the first element. Swords split the air, reminding us that the second world (that of air or life) not only divides things into pairs of Sefirot but splits each Sefirah in two as well (see second-to-last paragraph of section on the Great Name). Cups hold water and water corresponds to form, hence the world of neuter, male, and female: the world of life-forms. That it is the suit of the Grail means that it is the doer that is the object of the work, the subject of the quest. And Coins are the rounds or cycles of physical, temporal reality.

This is talking about Kabalah but the fccus is on the spear, sword, cup/cauldron and coins. These are connected to the four main tribes of Israel and the four elements but of course I doubt there is a genuine ancient artefact or text that could date this to before the common era or captivity. Kabalah, gnosticism, alchemy, shamanism.. they all descrive pretty much the same thing but I am curious as to where it originates from. If it is one place or many. I'm pretty convinced the great pyramid was the pinnacle in some way but how was this knowledge transmitted I wonder.

[crystal sage]

Thanks Crystal Sage, I see this is a topic that has been discussed here before and you well ahead of me in terms of research. I'm sorry if it is boring for some to go over the same ground sometimes. I have also come across the hop-of-israel and can see why there is some antagonism towards them. I try to maintain healthy skepticism but just because tales make some go a little does not mean that there is not value in what is mentioned. Science should just try and extract the good parts and history will be what it is. I would like to see more archeology done to see if any more tales could be verified but people are so quick to claim forgery or conspiracy I can understand why it is kept discreet.

The difference between many and some is that many want definite answers while the some appreciate many possibilities. It is often the immaterial that inspires matter. This is basic cognition, so in a sense by altering states of consciousness and experiencing the ancestral and universal consciously, inspiration could be embraced. That is why I reckon these guys were decent fighters, craftsmen, bards and builders of ships and stone temples. These were the major cereal producers to Greece so when Rome identifies these people as barbarians I think they are underestimating the true nature. They had gold, spices and anything else they needed traded from the east. It is quite feasable that they could also acquire frankinsence and myrh and perhaps some concoction helped in the process of dissoulution of self. We do not necessarily even need supernatural explanations but to speculate that spiritual experience was brought on by plants is a definite possibility. They had opportunity and motive so from that point of view the criteria of evidence is being dented. If accessing superconsciousness was attainable and it helped to understand how nature worked then this could have been applied to running a kingdom. I don't know how ancient china operated but India has had the caste system which is comparable to celtic society and the early israelites clearly had this strong tribal mentality. It is all very interesting from my perspective and good research for creative writing but it is a far cry from stating that this is the way it was and this should alter the political landscape in some way. These are just stories and with no proof to consider that is how they shall remain.

P.S CS, there were so many great links in those two threads you linked, I wish I had the time to read them all.

No ... I think some of these areas should be explored further on many levels to gather the various perceptions and understandings of those times. It is also interesting find some of the unexpected interactions, influences,of people from all over the world how it appears that the people of the old world were pretty adventurous,that they travelled more often and much further than we would have expected. Were consequently exposed to many cultural, spiritual, political influences, thus perhaps explaining what we would see as many anomolous findings.

Think in terms of souvenirs.. the museums ,the collections of scholars, the wealthythe clergy. Many smart,perhaps less financial adventurous people in the old days chose to join various monastries or religious orders in order to benefit from the education they provided, the resources they had at their disposal, and the many other opportunities, such as being sent to new lands, available in relative comfort. Then there were the political marriages or partnerships .. the scholars, adventuruers, clergy joining merchants on their ever widening quests for new exotic goods for profit, power, knowledge.. where people from completely different lands and cultures would bring something of their world to the new... maybe influence customs, fashion, in some cases, architecture, bring in new foods,plants, animals, knowledge.

How people in those ancient times also were fascinated in the past and collected artifacts, explored and wrote histories. How many of the kings and queens and other people of power.. wealth and influence also had a great interest in the arts, the mind,histories, and commissioned lots of works, collected artifacts, commissioned scholars to record histories, sent them out to explore new lands, to expand knowledge , be more aware of the opportunities that the world has to offer.

They understood that knowledge is power and can enhance lives. Equally there were many foolish people of power who feared the new, were uncomfortable with change,many new ideas, and sought to destroy all that did not conform with their sense of self and try to force their ways on other people and lands. Often rigid misguided adherence to doctrines, religious writings, were the excuse or the weapon used, enforced by political agendas and stealth manipulations of few or many.

Edited June 5, 2010 by crystal sage

[crystal sage]

Of all the possible connections I had never read a concise enough reasoning to wet my appetite when it came to Tarot but while looking into Iolo and John Aubrey I came across this and it connects it back to Egypt.

These three mothers must be a slight alteration of the only three single-sound Egyptian hieroglyphs that were birds: ’ (alef) the eagle (Egyptian vulture), w the quail chick, and m the owl. For these spell out the Logos, the Word, AUM, the letters of which ultimately (whether Egyptians knew it or not) stand for the three parts of the self. This is the primary mantra of the East and is found in the Huna term for the High Self, au-makua—‘utterly trustworthy parental pair’—which can also be interpreted as AUM-akua, ‘AUM-being’. It is also spelt by the suffixes of the names of the three ruffians in the Masonic drama: Jubela, Jubelo, and Jubelum. Harold W. Percival, in Thinking and Destiny, explains that for man the Logos is pronounced IAUM: the full vowel spectrum from front to back (from smile to pucker) in a nasal tone, resolving in the “mm” of pure sweetness. The I stands for the physical body in which the self dwells, without which it tends to pull self out of the body (it has indeed pulled Tibetan Buddhism out of its body, Tibet). This suggests the name of the transcendent Dionysus, IAO, and Christ’s ‘I am the alpha and the omega’: the vowels I-A-U as bardic symbols invoke (in order) the colors black-white-red, which are the three stages of alchemy, Nigredo-Albedo-Rubedo. For I is the vowel of ‘old moon’ winter, A of the new moon or birth of the year, and U of the full moon and summer.

http://www.tarotpedia.com/wiki/Bardic_origin_of_Tarot

I liked this bit too.

It is easy to see the relation of suits to worlds. Batons constitute the spokes of the original or first wheel: being the only suit symbol that is combustible, they are fire, the first element. Swords split the air, reminding us that the second world (that of air or life) not only divides things into pairs of Sefirot but splits each Sefirah in two as well (see second-to-last paragraph of section on the Great Name). Cups hold water and water corresponds to form, hence the world of neuter, male, and female: the world of life-forms. That it is the suit of the Grail means that it is the doer that is the object of the work, the subject of the quest. And Coins are the rounds or cycles of physical, temporal reality.

This is talking about Kabalah but the fccus is on the spear, sword, cup/cauldron and coins. These are connected to the four main tribes of Israel and the four elements but of course I doubt there is a genuine ancient artefact or text that could date this to before the common era or captivity. Kabalah, gnosticism, alchemy, shamanism.. they all descrive pretty much the same thing but I am curious as to where it originates from. If it is one place or many. I'm pretty convinced the great pyramid was the pinnacle in some way but how was this knowledge transmitted I wonder.

I am beginning to agree that Egypt was the original Holy Land..

The Holy Family in Egypt

Introduction Egypt is the cradle of human civilization: a fact hardly contested among authoritative historians. But Egypt also enjoys a focal geopolitical position, connecting Africa, Asia, and Europe through the Mediterranean Sea. On its land, migrations of people, traditions, philosophies and religious beliefs succeeded each other for thousands of years. Evidence of this succession is still visible in the accumulation of monuments and sites attesting to a uniquely comprehensive cultural heritage. Indeed, one of the phenomena which shaped Egypt's distinctive identity, and explains its pervasive influence on the then known world, was a dynamism that accommodated and re-formulated these successive cultures into one homogenous and harmonious Egyptian canvas. Egypt is one civilization woven of many strands, threaded by successive and intertwining eras; the Pharaonic, the Graeco-Roman, the Coptic Christian, and the Islamic eras.

Because the Egyptian people are the essential product of the "harmony in diversity", "otherness" has become an integral component of their awareness, a basic constituent of their national and cultural identity. This characteristic has yielded one important result: Egypt was, and still is, the land of refuge in the widest sense of the word, a place of tolerance and dialogue for peoples, races, cultures and religions.

On this land of Egypt, the first voice proclaiming the Oneness of God rang out in the 14th century BC through Akhenaton's monotheistic creed. Moses and Jesus lived in this same land. Later, Islam entered without conflict.

My link

[kmt_sesh]

The Holy Family in Egypt

Introduction Egypt is the cradle of human civilization: a fact hardly contested among authoritative historians. But Egypt also enjoys a focal geopolitical position, connecting Africa, Asia, and Europe through the Mediterranean Sea. On its land, migrations of people, traditions, philosophies and religious beliefs succeeded each other for thousands of years. Evidence of this succession is still visible in the accumulation of monuments and sites attesting to a uniquely comprehensive cultural heritage. Indeed, one of the phenomena which shaped Egypt's distinctive identity, and explains its pervasive influence on the then known world, was a dynamism that accommodated and re-formulated these successive cultures into one homogenous and harmonious Egyptian canvas. Egypt is one civilization woven of many strands, threaded by successive and intertwining eras; the Pharaonic, the Graeco-Roman, the Coptic Christian, and the Islamic eras.

Because the Egyptian people are the essential product of the "harmony in diversity", "otherness" has become an integral component of their awareness, a basic constituent of their national and cultural identity. This characteristic has yielded one important result: Egypt was, and still is, the land of refuge in the widest sense of the word, a place of tolerance and dialogue for peoples, races, cultures and religions.

On this land of Egypt, the first voice proclaiming the Oneness of God rang out in the 14th century BC through Akhenaton's monotheistic creed. Moses and Jesus lived in this same land. Later, Islam entered without conflict.

LOL Well, this is a particularly rosy view of events, but not terribly realistic. The Muslims entered as invaders after sweeping through the entire Middle East, clearing their with their swords. Christianity had already taken hold in Egypt and the early Christians resisted the Muslims as best they could, to their own decimation. Christians in Egypt suffered through multiple pogroms and purges and to this day are one of the most oppressed people in North Africa (they now comprise only about 6% of the population of Egypt).

And make no mistake, the form of monotheism that was developing under Akhenaten was of no conceivable relation to the rise of the Hebrew god Yahweh. By the time the Jews were rising into their own, Akhenaten's religion was already long dead and forgotten. It's taken generations of modern archaeology and research just to understand it as well as we do today, and we still have lots of questions. In fact, in its earliest stages of development the religion of Judea was almost certainly henotheistic, not monotheistic. Had Moses and Jesus lived in Egypt as scripture tells us, it was long after Akhenaten for both of them. And it must be remembered that while a case can certainly be made outside the Bible that Jesus was a real man at the start of the common era, there remains no tangible, extra-biblical evidence whatsoever that Moses was a real man.

[crystal sage]

LOL Well, this is a particularly rosy view of events, but not terribly realistic. The Muslims entered as invaders after sweeping through the entire Middle East, clearing their with their swords. Christianity had already taken hold in Egypt and the early Christians resisted the Muslims as best they could, to their own decimation. Christians in Egypt suffered through multiple pogroms and purges and to this day are one of the most oppressed people in North Africa (they now comprise only about 6% of the population of Egypt).

And make no mistake, the form of monotheism that was developing under Akhenaten was of no conceivable relation to the rise of the Hebrew god Yahweh. By the time the Jews were rising into their own, Akhenaten's religion was already long dead and forgotten. It's taken generations of modern archaeology and research just to understand it as well as we do today, and we still have lots of questions. In fact, in its earliest stages of development the religion of Judea was almost certainly henotheistic, not monotheistic. Had Moses and Jesus lived in Egypt as scripture tells us, it was long after Akhenaten for both of them. And it must be remembered that while a case can certainly be made outside the Bible that Jesus was a real man at the start of the common era, there remains no tangible, extra-biblical evidence whatsoever that Moses was a real man.

From the same site... My link

for Akhenaten, Egypt's 18th Dynasty heretic King with Moses of biblical fame. There is nothing new in this argument, which has been made since antiquity. Even Manetho, and Egyptian Priest (c. 300 BC) who wrote a valuable history of Egypt claims that the founder of monotheism, whom he called Osarsiph, assumed the name Moses and led his followers out of Egypt in Akhenaten's reign. Afterwards, other writers such as Lysimachus, Tacitus and Strabo also alluded to this association between Akhenaten and Moses. In the modern era, Sigmund Freud (an active collector of Egyptian artifacts) also proposed this theory in an influential study of Moses and monotheism, and today there is no small number of web sites that likewise continue this argument

Manrtho tells us that Osarsiph - Moses belonged to an elite religious group known as the as the priests of Heliopolis . Who exactly were these priests of Heliopolis ?.... Heliopolis was a great centre of learning , a " university " known throughout the ancient world . Greek writers and travellers would come to spend time with its learned priests , who were apparently versed in the ancient wisdom .

The ancient heritage and wisdom of the Heliopolitan priesthood were renowned . Herodotus , the famous Greek historian of the fifth century BC , visited Heliopolis and subsequently recorded that in his opinion its priests had " the reputation of being the best skilled in history of all the Egyptians " .

Not only were they versed in geometry , medicine , mythology and pgilosophy , but they were also looked on as " masters of astronomy " .

A greek grammarian of the first century AD named Apion of Alexandria made some quite remarkable statement about the life of Moses , the biblical Lawgiver . In a quotation taken from his now lost work Aegyptiaca , fortunately preserved by the Jewish historian Flavius Josephus , tells us

and... of interest...

My link

Now the first reference to "Israel" as a people comes in a stele from the period of Merneptah (or Merenptah), the son of Ramses II ("the Great") of the 19th Dynasty of the New Kingdom, either father or son often thought of as the pharaoh of the Exodus

.. maybe the partially erased 'stele' obelisk pinched from Egypt by the Vatican contained some of the vital information?

My link

The Tempest Stele was erected by the pharaoh Ahmose I at the beginning of the eighteenth dynasty of Egypt, which equates to about 1550 BC. The stele derives its dramatic title from the great storms that it details, which evidently struck Egypt during the reign of Ahmose I. Climatically speaking, southern, or Upper Egypt can be thought of as being in the midst of the Sahara desert, and although the occasional desert thunderstorm will create a flash flood every decade or so, the area is otherwise bone dry. Ahmose¹s account of a raging nationwide tempest of rain continuing without cessation and being louder than a waterfall at Aswan, can therefore be considered to be highly unusual in this region.

... now then ... the gods declared their discontent. The gods [caused] the sky to come in a tempest of r[ain], with darkness in the western region and the sky being unleashed without [cessation, louder than] the cries of the masses, more powerful than [...], [while the rain raged] on the mountains louder than the noise of the cataract which is at Elephantine.

This was certainly a notable occurrence, it was not only worthy of an Egyptian stele being cut to record these events, but was it also worthy of a scroll being written too? Was the Israelite equivalent of the stele the second book of the Torah ­ Exodus?

My link

This brings us to the rather interesting translation of the Tempest Stele, which accords so well with the biblical account, indeed it appears to be a direct quotation from the Bible. There are a number of biblical quotations and similarities inscribed on the Tempest Stele and one of them reads as follows:

Then his Majesty began ... to provide them with silver, with gold, with copper, with oil, and of every bolt [of cloth] that could be desired. Then his majesty made himself comfortable inside the palace.

In the Bible, an exact equivalent of the description above is to be found. During the exodus the Bible says:

This is the offering which ye shall take of them; gold, silver, and brass [copper]. And cloth of blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine linen ... oil for the light, spices for anointing oil and for sweet incense ... and let them make a [palace] sanctuary that I may dwell among them.

Edited June 5, 2010 by crystal sage

[SlimJim22]

The answer is very surprising and has been preserved for almost 2000 years in the writings of an Egyptian priest/historian called Manetho. He wrote a history of Egypt in the 3rd century BCE for his Hellenistic Greek overlord Ptolemy II. He noted that TWO EXPULSIONS occurred in Egypt's history, of Asiatics. The first was of the Hyksos of the mid 16th century and then another in the Ramesside era. He understood that the Hyksos fled to and settled at Jerusalem, but that 500 years later (Josephus' reckoning) "their descendants" reinvaded Egypt, resettling at the town they had been expelled from earlier called Avaris. After 13 years of "lording it" over the eastern delta, the Ramessides expelled the Hyksos' descendants a SECOND TIME, and they eventually again settled at Jerusalem.

My conclusion from reading Manetho's account (if Manetho is correctly relaying Egyptian events) is that TWO EXODUSES occurred, one in Hyksos times and the other in Ramesside times, and that these came to be fused into ONE via oral traditions by Late Iron II times when I understand the Primary History, Genesis-Kings to have been composed ca. 562 BCE in the Exile.

{endquote} http://www.bibleorigins.net/ExodusJosephusVSManetho.html

However, the Archaeologists say that while the Expulsion of the Hyksos is well attested in the archaeological record, there is no evidence for such a second Exodus: archaeology-bible.html.

Donald B. Redford writes in Egypt, Canaan and Israel in Ancient Times (Princeton University Press, Princeton NJ, 1992):

{p. 416} The fate of the victims in the Osarsiph legend differs from that of the Hyksos. The latter were expelled through war, whereas the lepers were enslaved. It is from Osarsiph or its prototype that the "Bondage" tradition of Exodus originated.

{p. 415} The use of the Greek terms "lepers" and "unclean" suggests a pejorative in the original Egyptian (or demotic) that in Pharaonic propaganda was customarily attached to undesirable antisocial elements, whether native or foreign. In the present case it seems clear that the devotees of Akhenaten's sun cult are the historical reality underlying the "lepers," and this is confirmed by the iconoclastic nature of the lepers' legislation and the figure of thirteen years for the occupation, which corresponds to the period of occupation of Amarna. Osarsiph moreover is remembered as a priest of Heliopolis,

{p. 416} where sun worship was endemic, and his name may be construed as a perjorative applied in later tradition to Akhenaten.

{end of quotes} More at archaeology-bible.html.

Redford also wrote in Pharaonic King-Lists, Annals and Day-Books (Benben Publications, Mississaupa,1986):

{p. 293} Manetho's statement that there were "learned priests" among the lepers in the quarries would find a ready explanation in awareness of the Wady Hammamat inscriptions of Akhenaten's year 4, which states that May, the high-priest ot Amun, had been sent there to procure stone. The plague motif itself has precedent in earlier hieroglyphic sources and quite likely reflects a reminiscence of the historic plague of Amarna times. The plague also is connected with Kush in the tradition Eusebius transmits, and its tied in with the 5th year ot Amenophis III, possibly due to a false interpretation of his Aswan and Nubian stelae recording his victorious campaign of that year.

The occupation ot a deserted area, set apart, (though in the modified form of the story replaced by Avaris) sounds like the hegira to Amarna, and the 13 years ot woe wrought by lepers and shepherds can only be the term of Akhenaten's stay in his new city. The figure ot Osarsiph-Moses is clearly modelled on the historic memory of Akhenaten. He is credited with interdicting the worship of all the gods and, in Apion, of championing a form of worship which used open-air temples oriented east.

In short the combined themes ot "plague/expulsion" and "invasion trom the north," as they appear in Manetho's source, have been modified to meet the requirements of an aetiology of Amarna period monuments in Upper Egypt. The date of this source is difficult to ascertain, though I doubt that it is much earlier than Manetho

Sorry if this has already been mentioned but it seemed very well reasoned. Here is the link.

http://www.mailstar.net/four-room-house.html

How much authority does the Four Room House theory hold as it applies to the existence of Hebrews in AE?

http://heritage-key.com/blogs/sean-williams/oldest-babylonian-cuneiform-seal-fragment-egypt-discovered-hyksos-capital-avaris

http://canaanitepath.com/library.htm

http://www.israelect.com/reference/WillieMartin/Phoenicians%20%5BA%5D.htm

Right, I am going to attempt to make some connections so shoot me down if I overstep any invisible marks. The Hittites were at war with the Hurrians. They were based close to Harran and Ur and their name is a sort of composite of the two Now we recall with Abraham that he was from Ur of the Chaldees. They were astrologers and diviners. Ur could also be consiered to be close to Aryans but an 'R' is hardly much to go on but linguistically at that time it might have meant a great deal.

We then have the Hyskos coming into Egypt from the north and they appear to share much with the hebrews and rule from Avaris where we find a temple to Set. They rule for some a while before being expelled and coincidentally this is roughly the time of the Vedic period of india give or take a decade or ten. No doubt you see where I am going.

Not sure how Akhenaten fits in but as it states in the extract I posted earlier they are a good fit for the 'lepers' not in a literal sense but they had become spiritual lepers having turned against the old gods. You then have that dude who allegedly put the story of Moses together from the memories of Akhenaten. Not sure on that part they could have been separate people but there is little evidence of a historical Moses. Anyway just to chip in but if Moses wasn't a real person then his story must be allegory and to what could the 'burning bush' pertain?

[kmt_sesh]

for Akhenaten, Egypt's 18th Dynasty heretic King with Moses of biblical fame. There is nothing new in this argument, which has been made since antiquity. Even Manetho, and Egyptian Priest (c. 300 BC) who wrote a valuable history of Egypt claims that the founder of monotheism, whom he called Osarsiph, assumed the name Moses and led his followers out of Egypt in Akhenaten's reign. Afterwards, other writers such as Lysimachus, Tacitus and Strabo also alluded to this association between Akhenaten and Moses. In the modern era, Sigmund Freud (an active collector of Egyptian artifacts) also proposed this theory in an influential study of Moses and monotheism, and today there is no small number of web sites that likewise continue this argument

Manetho's history is considered dubious at best. Modern historians do not consider it to be reliable source material. Manetho's kings list alone is a bungled mess that's nearly impossible to decipher, so far is it from the actual line of kings. Manetho no doubt was well familiar with the Torah from the Jewish population of Alexandria, and he was probably striving to make connections between their history and the history of his own Egyptian people. His account of Osarsiph and Moses has no identifiable grounding in fact and is for the most part fable. Later writers such as those you mentioned were merely following on the folly of Manetho.

Freud was indeed much interested in this same topic, but the material he wrote on it was not influential. It is no more factually grounded than stuff written by the likes of Ahmed Osman, whose arguments are poorly researched and not taken seriously. Freud was a genius and a giant of his time--but as a psychiatrist, certainly not as an historian. He never was an historian.

Folks can quote all the fringe and dubious material they want. None of it holds water. Once they take it upon themselves to read and study the material written by professionals properly trained to understand, digest, and clarify ancient history, they will see for themselves why fringe material cannot be trusted. Guaranteed.

Heliopolis was a great centre of learning , a " university " known throughout the ancient world . Greek writers and travellers would come to spend time with its learned priests , who were apparently versed in the ancient wisdom .

Heliopolis was the ancient cult center of Re, a massive temple complex now buried under Cairo. It was never a university, per se. The only ones who would've been allowed access to its texts were priests or students training to be priests. It's highly unlikely Greeks and other foreigners would've been allowed to set foot inside the sacred precinct, unless they happened to be part of the ruling class of Greeks from Alexandria. The writer whom you and I quoted would've been better off identifying the library of Alexandria--a "university known throughout the ancient world" is a perfect description of this library but not of Heliopolis.

What I'm trying to stress, I suppose, is that all of the later writings about Moses from people such as Manetho and Josephus and other Classical authors, ultimately derive from one source and one source only: the Old Testament. These writers were simply making assumptions to fill in the blanks of their own absence of knowledge from what was ancient history to them, too. None of this constitutes a corroboration for the existence of the biblical character Moses.

Now the first reference to "Israel" as a people comes in a stele from the period of Merneptah (or Merenptah), the son of Ramses II ("the Great") of the 19th Dynasty of the New Kingdom, either father or son often thought of as the pharaoh of the Exodus

All true. Most biblical scholars and other historians who have wrestled with this issue favor Ramesses II in particular, but there are some who prefer Merenptah as the pharaoh of the Exodus. The Old Testament makes it very difficult to find clarity. The Book of Kings tells us that the Exodus occurred 480 years before work begun on Solomon's Temple of Jerusalem, in the fourth year of his reign (1 Kings 6:1). The problem with this is, the date as provided in the Old Testament would place the Exodus within the reign of Tuthmosis III (1479-1424 BCE), and this is simply an impossibility. Archaeology of the highlands of Judah makes it crystal-clear that the Hebrews did not even exist at that time. So for a number of factors, including the biblical narrative of how the Hebrews were making mud bricks at Pi-Rameses, scholars tend to identify Ramesses II as the pharaoh of the Exodus. I enjoy studying this as much as the next person, but we cannot get around the fact that outside the Old Testament, there is simply no evidence whatsoever that the Exodus took place. At least nothing in the way as preserved in the Old Testament.

.. maybe the partially erased 'stele' obelisk pinched from Egypt by the Vatican contained some of the vital information?

I'm not sure which obelisk you're talking about.

The Tempest Stele was erected by the pharaoh Ahmose I at the beginning of the eighteenth dynasty of Egypt, which equates to about 1550 BC. The stele derives its dramatic title from the great storms that it details, which evidently struck Egypt during the reign of Ahmose I. Climatically speaking, southern, or Upper Egypt can be thought of as being in the midst of the Sahara desert, and although the occasional desert thunderstorm will create a flash flood every decade or so, the area is otherwise bone dry. Ahmose¹s account of a raging nationwide tempest of rain continuing without cessation and being louder than a waterfall at Aswan, can therefore be considered to be highly unusual in this region.

Ahmose I (1549-1524 BCE) reigned even before Tuthmosis III, so the possibility of Hebrews existing at the time is even more impossible, if I may phrase it so clumsily. Can something be more impossible? Well, you know what I mean. That such a storm would've been unusual is true, but certainly not impossible. As the quote says, torrential rainstorms and floods occurred every ten years or so. They do to this day. However, it's quite unlikely that the event was actually nationwide, of course.

This brings up an odd theory which I personally believe to have some merit. This theory might constitute the one and only "fringe" argument I find credible. I stress that it does not have wide acceptance among most historians, so take that for what it's worth. However, it does provide considerable, plausible background for what we see in the Exodus as it appears in the Old Testament.

It's possible that the Thera eruption (c. 1628 BCE) and the expulsion of the Hyksos at the hands of Ahmose provided a framework for the Exodus. True, the eruption and the expulsion were around 80 or more years apart, but this span of time would not have been remembered by the Hebraic scribes who were recording the Exodus story centuries later. We have a volcanic eruption which could've led in logically and scientifically explainable terms to all of the Plagues as described in Exodus, and we have a large number of Canaanites leaving Egypt. Yes, the Hyksos and the Hebrews were completely unrelated, but the Hyksos, who were chiefly Canaanites, still came from the same core people and culture from which the Hebrew culture would emerge eventually. The eruption at Thera was certainly remembered by many Mediterranean people long after it occurred, even if timeframe and details grew fuzzy, and it's possible the violent expulsion of the Hyksos lived on in the Levant in a similar oral tradition. Thus the Hebrews who turned oral tradition into written text centuries later, preserved these events in a manner appropriate to the religion and agenda of the emerging culture of Judea.

But to be sure, neither the Hebrews nor their religion existed in the time of Ahmose I, nor in the time of Tuthmosis III. By the time Merenptah had his victory stela carved in around 1207 BCE, the Hebrews were only starting to emerge as an identifiable culture. They are preserved as such on this stela.

[crystal sage]

Folks can quote all the fringe and dubious material they want. None of it holds water. Once they take it upon themselves to read and study the material written by professionals properly trained to understand, digest, and clarify ancient history, they will see for themselves why fringe material cannot be trusted. Guaranteed.

The Book of Kings tells us that the Exodus occurred 480 years before work begun on Solomon's Temple of Jerusalem, in the fourth year of his reign (1 Kings 6:1). The problem with this is, the date as provided in the Old Testament would place the Exodus within the reign of Tuthmosis III (1479-1424 BCE), and this is simply an impossibility. Archaeology of the highlands of Judah makes it crystal-clear that the Hebrews did not even exist at that time. So for a number of factors, including the biblical narrative of how the Hebrews were making mud bricks at Pi-Rameses, scholars tend to identify Ramesses II as the pharaoh of the Exodus. I enjoy studying this as much as the next person, but we cannot get around the fact that outside the Old Testament, there is simply no evidence whatsoever that the Exodus took place. At least nothing in the way as preserved in the Old Testament.

I'm not sure which obelisk you're talking about.

Ahmose I (1549-1524 BCE) reigned even before Tuthmosis III, so the possibility of Hebrews existing at the time is even more impossible, if I may phrase it so clumsily. Can something be more impossible? Well, you know what I mean. That such a storm would've been unusual is true, but certainly not impossible. As the quote says, torrential rainstorms and floods occurred every ten years or so. They do to this day. However, it's quite unlikely that the event was actually nationwide, of course.

This brings up an odd theory which I personally believe to have some merit. This theory might constitute the one and only "fringe" argument I find credible. I stress that it does not have wide acceptance among most historians, so take that for what it's worth. However, it does provide considerable, plausible background for what we see in the Exodus as it appears in the Old Testament.

But to be sure, neither the Hebrews nor their religion existed in the time of Ahmose I, nor in the time of Tuthmosis III. By the time Merenptah had his victory stela carved in around 1207 BCE, the Hebrews were only starting to emerge as an identifiable culture. They are preserved as such on this stela.

I wonder why perhaps the vatican then chose to add the stele of Tuthmosis III to their collection... ??

Dual stela of Hatsheput and Thutmose III (Vatican).]

My link

Edited June 6, 2010 by crystal sage

[crystal sage]

Akhenaton, the Cult of Aton, and the Dark Side of the Sun

(Polemical Investigations into the Extermination of Druidry and the Rise of Judeo-Christianity)

My link

Kind of disappointed here... was brought up Catholic... sort of stepped back for quite a while when I read all the historical atrocities done in the name of God and Jesus... How even more abominable atrocities were alleged to have been done by God.. or in God's name.... the crusades.. the inquisitions.. the wars..families.. lives ruined for not abiding by some " channeled" stories.. laws that were heavily edited by who ever decided they had the divine power to try to rule all the lives of Mankind.

Channeled by the "John Edwards style" psychic mediums of their times.

I wonder how many times these mysterious writers of holy works had to rewrite their works to make them enchanting gripping readings... for the masses...

I can just imagine the early agents seeking out writers to fit the needs of the church's idea of creating a book that will validate it and give them power to control the minds and souls of humanity for all time.. could you imagine the nation wide search... the stealth and the smug excitement of it all. They would have had it easy instilling this in those days as not many were literate then.. so were bound to be an easy audience.. were not able to question and research for anomolies.. had to take it all on face value... any doubters or critics as we know were dealt with severly.. eg: torture.. burnings at the stake...not just for the gutsy few who spoke up.. but their whole families had their lives ruined.. lost all their belongings...

Not the nicest way to create a best seller..

It seems to have been forced onto the masses..

The bible seems to be more of a testament to the definition of purgatory...morals.. justified cruelty... anger... fear.. retributions..power plays...suspense..segregations...arrogance... and a very few moments of joy and tears of relief.. that there is hope.. that we can make a difference of we do nice things,..

Lives are still being destroyed, ruined in the name of various 'holy' writings.. in what ever version that they are being venerated...

It makes me ill to even think about it.

I suppose much of the bible are perhaps based on events that were recorded orally at first.. We know how important correct recall of traditional stories are.. the high standards of Bardship... How even in the few remaining traditional story tellers that the elders ensure that the recounting of their legends.. their historical stories are pure and not altered in any way.

Maybe some of these biblical tales are maybe much older than we believe.. maybe pre Ice age???

We know that conscious "Man" has been around at various stages of evolution for at least a million years...maybe some of these stories go way back when..

We are finding evidence of many civilizations that go back pre ice age.. so maybe some of these tales go way back before then? We have had what can be seen as many dark ages since then.. when various natural and unnatural calamities have caused mankind to virtually pick up all the pieces and start again.. so all history would have been hap hazzardly gathered and been adapted to the various new environmental cultures that evolved afterwards. Maybe adapted for the new audience.. with enough of the original flavour to please the elders...

If you think of how long man kind has been around... how little verifiable history we have at the moment.. with so many gaps...

Will we ever be able to adequately fill them?

I believe that the various legends of all the lands.. even some of the biblical legends provide some clues..

Especially as so many lands on all corners of the earth have parallel stories.. legends...

Edited June 6, 2010 by crystal sage

[kmt_sesh]

I wonder why perhaps the vatican then chose to add the stele of Tuthmosis III to their collection... ??

Dual stela of Hatsheput and Thutmose III (Vatican).]

My link

I'm not sure what you're trying to imply. Because the Vatican has a collection, there must be a nefarious purpose? (Correct me if I'm misreading your intentions, which is entirely possible.) The Vatican collection is world-renowned, a truly first-rate holding. This collection contains a great many objects from the lands from which Christianity was born or which had a direct effect on the development and formation of Christianity. Many senior Catholic clergy are some of the highest educated historians in the world. I don't see any reason to look for a nefarious purpose where none exists. And this particular stela (thanks for posting the link) is interesting for the period of coregency between Hatshepsut and Tuthmosis III. It holds no secrets and would have no effect on Judeo-Christianity.

[kmt_sesh]

Right, I am going to attempt to make some connections so shoot me down if I overstep any invisible marks. The Hittites were at war with the Hurrians. They were based close to Harran and Ur and their name is a sort of composite of the two Now we recall with Abraham that he was from Ur of the Chaldees. They were astrologers and diviners. Ur could also be consiered to be close to Aryans but an 'R' is hardly much to go on but linguistically at that time it might have meant a great deal.

Now, now, Slim, there you go mixing similar-sounding words again. The Hurrians had migrated down from the Caucasus, and at the point where they became a rising force in northern Mesopotamia. To be specific, the Hittites were at war with the Mitanni, the most prominent confederation of Harrian speakers, with a strong military caste of Indo-Iranians. The Mitanni capital was Washshukanni, which has not yet been found. Separating Harran from possible biblical muddling, this was a real site in southeast Anatolia and one of the sites over which the Hittites and Mitanni fought back and forth. Ur, on the other hand, was in southern Iraq and was of no relation to the conquests or political sphere of the Hatti and Mitanni.

The Hurrians called their domain "Land of the Hurrians," but I don't know why you're thinking Harran and Ur would have anything to do with the word "Hurrian." Most linguists do not even know the language family to which Hurrian belonged, although some are certain it's related to Urartian.

We then have the Hyskos coming into Egypt from the north and they appear to share much with the hebrews and rule from Avaris where we find a temple to Set. They rule for some a while before being expelled and coincidentally this is roughly the time of the Vedic period of india give or take a decade or ten. No doubt you see where I am going.

No doubt, but there is no relation between the Hyksos and the Hebrews. The Hebrews did not yet exist when the Hyksos ruled Lower Egypt. It gets a little confusing from there. I am not well versed on the history of ancient India but am aware that the oldest Vedic texts can be traced to the second millennium BCE. So, this places it perhaps at about the same time as the Hyksos, but the Canaanites who comprised the brunt of the Hyksos population had no relationship with Vedic India, to be sure. Now, some have argued a possible connection between early Judaism and the Vedic culture, however dubious that may or may not be. But we cannot place the rise of Judaism in the second millennium BCE.

[SlimJim22]

Now, now, Slim, there you go mixing similar-sounding words again. The Hurrians had migrated down from the Caucasus, and at the point where they became a rising force in northern Mesopotamia. To be specific, the Hittites were at war with the Mitanni, the most prominent confederation of Harrian speakers, with a strong military caste of Indo-Iranians. The Mitanni capital was Washshukanni, which has not yet been found. Separating Harran from possible biblical muddling, this was a real site in southeast Anatolia and one of the sites over which the Hittites and Mitanni fought back and forth. Ur, on the other hand, was in southern Iraq and was of no relation to the conquests or political sphere of the Hatti and Mitanni.

The Hurrians called their domain "Land of the Hurrians," but I don't know why you're thinking Harran and Ur would have anything to do with the word "Hurrian." Most linguists do not even know the language family to which Hurrian belonged, although some are certain it's related to Urartian.

No doubt, but there is no relation between the Hyksos and the Hebrews. The Hebrews did not yet exist when the Hyksos ruled Lower Egypt. It gets a little confusing from there. I am not well versed on the history of ancient India but am aware that the oldest Vedic texts can be traced to the second millennium BCE. So, this places it perhaps at about the same time as the Hyksos, but the Canaanites who comprised the brunt of the Hyksos population had no relationship with Vedic India, to be sure. Now, some have argued a possible connection between early Judaism and the Vedic culture, however dubious that may or may not be. But we cannot place the rise of Judaism in the second millennium BCE.

I know, I know. Humour me, just a little if you please. Sorry for being a bit sketchy on the details.

The city of Harran was believed to have been founded in 2000 B.C. as a merchant outpost of Ur. The name "Harran-U" means "caravan" or "crossroad" in Sumerian and Akkadian. The Bible records that Abraham stayed in Harran after leaving Ur, which some claim was actually Urfa. Though there are claims that Harran got its name from Haran the brother of Abraham. Other than the similarity of name this is not substantiated. Furthermore, we learn that Terah, the father of Abraham and Haran died and was buried in Haran, and that a branch of the family remained there. Later Abraham sent a servant to Harran to obtain a wife for his son Isaac.

Though Harran, once a fabulous city, is now in ruins, we are told that not only was this city built over an area where the first world's cities with the first temples rose, and where agriculture was first started, but hosted perhaps the world's oldest university in the world. Many philosophers, scientists, such as Al-Battanai, who calculated the distance from the Earth to the Moon, Thabit ibn Qurrah, who translated Greek classics and scientific works into Arabic, and wrote on mathematics and astronomy, and the physicist and chemist Jabir ibn Hayyan to name just a few of the figures who rose to prominence in the Harran school.

I don't think there is a need to get hung up on semantics like when the hebrews originated. Abraham was allegedly a Chaldean, that means he was a lover of knowledge and a wanderer. He turned his back on human sacrifice and tried to promote animal sacrifice as a substitute. I forget his exact line of descent but if we assume there is some truth in the story of Noah then it is safe to say that Abraham was off this bloodline.

What you seem to have with the Hurrians is a northern people coming in and competing with the Hittites for dominance over Anatolia and Canaan. I think it's reasonable to think of Abraham as one of these travellers from the north even if he was born in Canaan, his tribe could have come from the Caucasus.

So, the Hyskos move into Egypt as foreign rulers and set up a tempe to set and build four room or Israelite houses. Of course Israelites did not exist but I suggest that it is from the Hyskos that the hebrews were enabelled to emerge. The were expelled and forced back into Canaan where they could have joined with other disparate tribes like the Shona Bedouin and anyone else they came into contact with. Anyone who opposed the egyptians would have been a prime candidate to sign up to the expelled Hyskos or emerging hebrews. I think this could explain the nature of early judaism as being distinct from the egyptians but really a composite of other cultures. To consdier that it was a group of Chaldeans behind the formation of the God Yahweh I think is very reasonable but without evidence it is only an idea and not a particularly good one I am sure.

Still, we then have the Mitani as an expanding kingdom. Not sure if you caught my post about the Abhirs of the Indus valley and their possible scythian origin. remmeber the link with 'wanderers' and with Isaac and the Sakkae. Still a couple of centuries later with Akhenaten we have the Hittites at war with the Mitani who had allied themselves with Egypt undre Akhenaten. If the Mitani retained some memory of the Hyskos it could explain why they would fight alongside the monotheists opposing Egypt. The short reign of Akhenaten, was it 13 years also seems to find parallels with the 2nd occupation at Avaris. It fits quite neatly for me, especially as we have such little archeological evidence to supprt the OT. Perhaps, Joseph and Moses were real characters but maybe it is easier to think that they were created out of the memories of the Hyskos and the 'lepers'. I agree with your point about Exodus and Thera but I can't help seeing the links that I have mentioned but I am more than content to admit I could be wrong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurrians

http://cultural-anthropology.suite101.com/article.cfm/ancient_origins_of_the_kurds

http://www.statemaster.com/encyclopedia/Mittanian

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sitchin/sitchinbooks03_03a.htm

I will have to do more research on the Kassites and the Nuzi but I think this logic can help to explain some of the anomolies we find in the OT and other texts that are not easily resolved with currently accepted history. I appreciate your criticsm Kmt

Just to sum up, I think that the Hurrians, Chaldeans and Mitani all had some kind of Aryan element but this is more to do with them being 'original' probably in the sense that their religion was ancient by comparison with other religions and cultures of the time. However, I do not see Aryan as necessarily meaning white with blonde hair and blue eyes. They may have been involved but not exclusively and I think the actions of Egypt and their xenophobia following the Hyskos expulsion helped unite various disparite tribes and bring them together under one banner and one God. No doubt this was a constant internal battle with the more popular paganism but from my POV paganism and monotheism can be brought together through the law of One, gnosticism and the idea of emanations from the Godhead as it is found in the Vedas and elsewhere. The book is coming along very well by the way.

[SlimJim22]

I liked the Tsarion link CS. I had come across it before but providing one using a certain amount of discernment in the reading it has been very useful.

So, I've been trying to trace the Chaldeans and found they were originally the Khaldi of Uratru from Hai meaning Ram. Seems like this could be a connection to Hayk of Armenia. The founder was Aprphaxad, descended from Noah. From my source I liked this part but I do not agree with all of the dating within the source.

The priestly dynasty passed down through the daughter of Ur, called On, who was the mother of Nahor, the grandfather of Abram. The traditions were then passed on to Terah and Abram. While Abram was secreted away from the deadly grasp of Nimrod, he learned the art of writing and the mysteries and secrets of the heavens from his father. The oracular mysteries were confined within the dynasty of his family. The power and social acclaim were his birthright.

Even so, Abram went to live with Noah and Shem who resided in the foothills of the Armenian mountains and resided there for thirty nine years. It was stated that “Abram knew the Lord from three years old” (Jasher 9:6) In his youth he also pondered the meaning of worship the sun and the moon but came to the thoughtful conclusion that the Creator God was greater than these. In the solitude of the Armenian hillside, the true worship of the Creator God and the family traditions in the family of Adam, preserved and transcribed by Noah were given to Abram.

At the age of fourteen, a plague of ravens settled in the hillside and began to eat the grain as it was being sown and cast across the fields in the springtime. As soon as they cast the grain, the bird would eat it up and the villagers knew that a disaster harvest was ahead. Wherever Abram went, he had the magic to dispel the ravens, which flew in great clouds. By diligently working with his countrymen, he saved the harvest and his fame went throughout the land. That winter, Abram, designed a novel invention to be placed on the crook-timber of the plows whereby they would drop seed into furrows and the ravens could not find the seed to eat. Thus at the age of fifteen, Abram became the inventor of the seed furrow planter.

http://www.biblesearchers.com/ancients/patriarch/abram1.shtml

Then this other site connects Hayk with Vayu of the Avesta.

http://bulfinch.englishatheist.org/armenian/chapter10.htm

[crystal sage]

Mqaybe we should check out the Essenes.. as it is said that Mary.. Jesus' Mom was an Essene..

My link

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From the remote ages of antiquity a remarkable teaching has existed which is universal in its application and ageless in its wisdom. Fragments of it are found in Sumerian hieroglyphs and on tiles and stones dating back some eight or ten thousand years. Some of the symbols, such as for the sun, moon, air, water and other natural forces, are from an even earlier age preceding the cataclysm that ended the Pleistocene period. How many thousands of years previous to that the teaching existed is unknown.

Traces of the teaching have appeared in almost every country and religion. Its fundamental principles were taught in ancient Persia, Egypt, India, Tibet, China, Palestine, Greece and many other countries. But it has been transmitted in its most pure form by the Essenes, that mysterious brotherhood which lived during the last two or three centuries B. C. and the first century of the Christian era at the Dead Sea in Palestine and at Lake Mareotis in Egypt. In Palestine and Syria the members of the brotherhood were known as Essenes and in Egypt as Therapeutae, or healers.

The esoteric part of their teaching is given in The Tree of Life, The Communions, and the Sevenfold Peace. The exoteric or outer teaching appears in "The Essene Gospel of Peace,' "Genesis, An Essene Interpretation," "Moses, the Prophet of the Law," and "The Sermon on the Mount."

The origin of the brotherhood is said to be unknown, and the derivation of the name is uncertain. Some believe it comes from Esnoch, or Enoch, and claim him to be their founder, their Communion with the angelic world having first been given to him.

Others consider the name comes from Esrael, the elects of the people to whom Moses brought forth the Communions at Mount Sinai where they were revealed to him by the angelic world.

But whatever their origin, it is certain the Essenes existed for a very long time as a brotherhood, perhaps under other names in other lands.

The Secret Initiation of Jesus at Qumran

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Feather’s research into the Copper Scroll of Qumran provides a substantive case for the Essenes being heirs to a priestly line that went back to the First Temple in Jerusalem, linked through the remaining 400 year gap, via Moses and Joseph, to the Egypt of Akhenaton.

This proposition seems, at first glance, to be far too much of a stretch and might be subject to ridicule were it not for the facts that the first Christians, followers of Jesus, travelled to Egypt and built their first churches near or around sacred Akhenaton locations.

Feather also provides evidence that the Qumran Essenes were physically present at Amarna, Akhenaton’s capital in Egypt, and carried out rituals in these sacred places.

Early followers of Jesus were very active in Egypt. Feather cites ample evidence through the Nag Hammadi Codices, Jewish tradition and of course, the Gospels themselves, that there was a clear link between Jesus and Egypt.

Edited June 6, 2010 by crystal sage

[crystal sage]

A group of Nazorean like Essenes dwelt in Egypt near the great library of Alexandria, and were known as Issaeans. Epiphanius identifies these Issaeans with the Essenes, for he tells the "studious reader" ("Haer.," xxix. 5), that if he would know more about them, he will find it in the memoirs of Philo, and especially in the book which that famous Alexandrian had entitled "Concerning the Issaei". Epiphanius goes on to outline Philo’s treatise "On the Contemplative Life.". Philo calls the community and monasteries on the southern shore of Lake Mareotis, south of Alexandria, the Therapeuts, and mentions other related communities. He says that he had already written of these "Essaei who lived in Palestine and Arabia. He mentions that these Essaei (Essene) communities there were not as impressive to him as the ones in Egypt

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The word Essene is a collective term. At the time of Yeshua there existed three distinct Essene groups. They were: The Theraputae of Egypt, the Essenes of Qumran, and the Essenes of Mount Carmel. Josephus and other classic writers tell of the Essenes and their intense appreciation for the inspired Law of Yahweh, and that they: “strove to be like the angels of heaven.”

All opposed slavery, and most but not all, opposed the sacrificing of animals and the eating of flesh. Their highest aim was to become fit temple in which Holy Spirit of God could dwell and florish, to be healers and to perform cures, especially spiritual cures.

There is evidence that Yeshua the Anointed had regional exposure to the Essenes of Mount Carmel in Northern Israel. It is clearly the area where Yeshua lived and studied. Certainly, the Northern Essenes had ongoing contact with their brethren in the South, but Yeshua was not raised and trained at Qumran as some in the modern Essene movement want to believe. A map provides conformation of this point.

The location of Nazareth is near the foot of Mount Carmel and not far from Lake Galilee, whereas the location of Bethlehem, Jerusalem, and Qumran is in southern Israel. Further, the travels of Yosef, Miriam, and Yeshua is reasonably well documented:

In The Life of Pythagoras written in the 2nd century by Jambichus, we learn that the young seeker, Pythagoras visited an Essene sanctuary on Mount Carmel:

“In Phoenica he [Pythagoras] conversed with the prophets who were descendants of

Moses... After gaining all he could from the Phoenician mysteries, he found that they

originated from the sacred rites of Egypt. This led him to... Egypt. Following the advice

of his teacher Thales, he left... through the agency of some Egyptian sailors, and landed

on the coast under Mount Carmel.”

Pythagoras then climbed Mount Carmel where he evidently received powerful teachings from the Northern Essenes; for when he returned to the ship, the sailors, who had hatched a secret plan to sell young Pythagoras into slavery, were mesmerized by his spiritual luminosity and unable to harm him. The sailors, according to Jamblichus, believed Pythagoras had become “supernatural.” Pythagoras went on to become an exponent of vegetarianism, fasting and other Essene practices. Thereafter he and his followers wore only white linen garments, as did the Essenes on Mount Carmel.

As mentioned earlier, the Northern Essenes held to certain religious practices which did not agree with the Sadducees and Pharisees at Jerusalem. What likely most offended other Jews was the steadfast refusal of the Essenes to offer animal sacrifices at the Temple...so adamant were the Essenes on this point it eventually led some to separate themselves and to their establishment of a kind of sanctuary on Mount Carmel.

One of the reasons the Essenes chose Mount Carmel was because of its connection with Eliyah the prophet. Many years earlier Eliyah had a school for prophets in a cave there. The cave could have been the ‘sanctuary’ of the Essenes. The location of what is said to have been Eliyah’s cave is known and can be visited today. As Eliyah was the sole true remnant of Israel, so too did the Essenes believe of themselves as they made their way to Mount Carmel. And, just as Eliyah had built the altar on Mount Carmel with twelve stones - one for each tribe of Israel, so the Essenes likewise could hope to restore true worship there.

[cormac mac airt]

Abraham was allegedly a Chaldean...

That's a bit anachronistic considering that the Chaldeans, as a dynastic influence, didn't happen for close to 1400 years after Abraham was alleged to have existed using the 2000 BC date.

I forget his exact line of descent but if we assume there is some truth in the story of Noah...

To assume any truth in the story, again Noah would have been Sumerian, Assyrian or Babylonian and not Hebrew. As there is no archaeological evidence to suggest even the remotest indication of a developing monotheistic culture having originated anywhere in Mesopotamia, particularly in the 2nd millenium BC, speculation on the relationship between an alleged Noah or an alleged Abraham is just so much smoke-and-mirrors.

To consider that it was a group of Chaldeans behind the formation of the God Yahweh I think is very reasonable but without evidence it is only an idea and not a particularly good one I am sure.

Again, the Chaldeans didn't exist by the time of the first mention of Israelites, per the Merneptah Stele, nor the formation of the Biblical state of Israel during the time of David and Solomon, but many centuries later.

cormac

[crystal sage]

I'm not sure what you're trying to imply. Because the Vatican has a collection, there must be a nefarious purpose? (Correct me if I'm misreading your intentions, which is entirely possible.) The Vatican collection is world-renowned, a truly first-rate holding. This collection contains a great many objects from the lands from which Christianity was born or which had a direct effect on the development and formation of Christianity. Many senior Catholic clergy are some of the highest educated historians in the world. I don't see any reason to look for a nefarious purpose where none exists. And this particular stela (thanks for posting the link) is interesting for the period of coregency between Hatshepsut and Tuthmosis III. It holds no secrets and would have no effect on Judeo-Christianity.

Well they do have a lot to answer for... about a million Sorrys will be a start... They have been sanctimoniously plundering the world for practically 2000 years and would have a treasure trove of artifacts.. I bet if some decent honest lay historians, archeologists etc. had accesss they would have a field day if they were allowed to search through and study them.. Most likely a lot of the gaps in history would be answered or at least help put us all on track.

Edited June 6, 2010 by crystal sage

[crystal sage]

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Having established that both ancient and modern scholars have pointed to a major remanifestation of the Essenes by Moses at Mount Sinai, we will consider the specific details of that event as described by the Essenes themselves in one of their most important texts: The Essene Book of Moses. In that text, God, at Mount Sinai, gave Moses the Essene Communions on a stone tablet. It was hoped that all the Jewish people would follow the way of life described on that tablet. But when Moses descended Mount Sinai and met with the people, it was clear that the majority were not ready to follow the esoteric Essene teachings engraved on that tablet. Heavy of heart, Moses again climbed Mount Sinai and asked God for an exoteric, easier set of teachings for the masses who were not ready to receive the esoteric Essene teachings. ("esoteric" means "inner circle"; "exoteric" means "outer circle".) God responded by giving the famous Ten Commandments on a second stone tablet; those commandments would be for the masses. Moses was to keep the esoteric Essene Communions for "the Children of Light," for only they could understand them. We read:

"And the Lord called unto Moses out of the mountain, saying, 'Come unto me, for I would give thee the Law for thy people, which shall be a covenant for the Children of Light'.... And God spake all these words, saying, 'I am the Law, thy God, which hath brought thee out from the depths of the bondage of darkness.... I am the invisible law, without beginning and without end.... If thou forsake me, thou shalt be visited by disasters for generation upon generation. If thou keepest my commandments, thou shalt enter the Infinite Garden where stands the Tree of Life in the midst of the Eternal Sea.'"

At that point, God then gave Moses the Essene Communions on the first tablet. Besides the Communions, that tablet included a synopsis of the main Essene teachings, including vegetarianism: "Thou shalt not take the life of any living thing." Our text then continues:

"And the people knew not what became of Moses, and they gathered themselves... and made a molten calf. And they worshipped unto the idol, and offered to it burnt offerings. And they ate and drank and danced before the golden calf... and they abandoned themselves to corruption and evil before the Lord."

The reference above to "burnt offerings" is a reference to "animal sacrifice". When Moses returned he found the people offering bloody animal sacrifices to their golden idol. Although he knew that these people had not "the ears to hear" the esoteric Essene tablet, -- they were given the exoteric Ten Commandments instead -- Moses preserved the Essene teachings for the Children of Light (the Essenes became known as the "Children of Light"); we read:

"And Moses hid the invisible Law within his breast, and kept it for a sign for the Children of Light."

It was at this time, according to both the ancient scholar Philo and the modern scholar Falk, that Moses trained 2,000 of the spiritual "elect" -- those Jews who had remained vegetarian and refused to participate in animal sacrifice and idol worship -- to be Essenes. AND FROM THIS TIME ON THE ESSENES ALWAYS EXISTED AS AN ESOTERIC MINORITY SECT WITHIN JUDAISM. (Note: When modern scholars assert that the Essenes of Qumran were founded about 200 years before the time of Jesus, they are correct in regard to that one Essene group at Qumran; but the overall Essene movement is far more ancient.)

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So these Essenes claimed to be the true Israel that is directly the successor of the scriptural Israel, living under its renewed covenant “in the land of Damascus” (which I think is a code for Babylonia).So here is a true Israel, situated within an historical ‘Israel’ that is bound for imminent divine destruction. The present time is an “age of wrath” extending from the time of the Babylonian exile onwards. During that long period, the historical Israel has been led astray by Belial and by its leaders, while the true Israel has been preserved to be rewarded in the coming judgment.

‘Belial’ is the most common name given in the Dead Sea Scrolls to the devil, Satan. But his role in the D literature is not very prominent and he is not a counterpart to God. He is simple the one who, with his host of spirits, tempts Israel to stray. But there is a passage in which God is said to have chosen some and rejected others “from eternity” and to foreknow their existence, so that in each generation a chosen remnant has been left. So there is no dualism here, but there is some predestination. Predestination and the existence of a tempter are both common mechanisms whereby members of a minority group explain to themselves why the are in a minority and why the majority reject them.

[crystal sage]

More...

In point of fact, Buddha's missionaries were preaching in Persia long before the days of King Asoka. The Mithraists, the Neo Pythagoreans, the Hermitists

p. 168

were similar secret societies, grouped together as the "Apostles of the Bloodless Altar."

There are two Zoroasters. One of these Zoroasters lived 6,000 years B.C. according to Darmesteter, and the other about 500 years B.C.

) Was Essenism due to Buddhism?

(2) Did Christianity emerge from Essenism.

The first question will form the subject of this chapter, and the second will be treated afterwards. In my first edition of this work I attached great importance to the evidence of King Asoka. That monarch, as we have seen in Chapter V., has given to Buddhism a record which no other religion can boast of, simply because in lieu of a reed and leaves of plantain trees or other ephemeral methods he has used a chisel and hard stone. By this means he has baffled the pious improver of sacred records, but the King's system was necessarily a little crude. On one pillar he tells us about his "double system of medical aid," on another of the "villages set apart for the

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