[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood

[Abramelin]

OK, I think she (Kalta) did get her name from being beautiful...lol

Abe came up with a name that he thought Sijrhed was, meaning jewels....but I read it as Sigrid myself, having a famous Aussie actress Sigrid Thornton helped or I wouldn't have know the name at all. Look at it - Sijr - (Si - gr) - hed - (id) So I say Sijrhed is Sigrid.

Now look:

Sigrid [siɡrɪd] is a Scandinavian given name for women from Old Norse Sigríðr, meaning "victory" " wisdom " and "beautiful"[1]. Nicknames for Sigrid are Siri, Sigga, Siggan and Sickan. The Latvian version of the name is Zigrīda.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigrid

Victory is interesting since it seems to associate her then with Nike and wisdom, well, Athena fits the bill there.

BUT Sigrid means beautiful in Old Norse. A Swedish name.

That is because you read Sijrhed as an English speaking person: the Dutch/Frisian -J- is not pronounced like the English -J-. Here the -J- is pronounced like the -I- in 'liar' or the -Y- in 'yes'.

So, if you pronounce it the right way, it will be like 'say-red', and that's almost similar to 'sieraad' (pronounced 'sea-raht').

[Abramelin]

If you read the whole episode about Kalta in the Oera Linda Book you will see that the mariners did not like her at all. She was the cause of a civil war between the mariners and the army and also leader of the land based soldiers. The name Kalta, therefore, was meant to be derogatory. The fact that her real name, Sijrhed, meant "beautiful" had nothing to do with her nickname. After the civil war (or fight) during which a few thousand combatants perished, she fled to the cultic Golar in Massilia.

Yes, I agree with you that her original name, Sijrhed, pointed to her beauty.

And that her nickname Kalta had something to do with her practising the 'evil ways' or 'magical ways' or something like that. But other names of people in the OLB are explained like the nickname of Min-erva is explained, 'ny' = new, and 'hel' = bright >> Nyhellenia.

I expected something like 'kal' = XXX , and 'ta' = YYY, and so we get 'Kalta', which means ZZZ.

[Abramelin]

Sijrhed's name is Sigrid, beautiful and the name the mariners gave her was Kalta, which could be related to the word Caltha, a marsh marigold used in herbal witchcraft or Caltha meaning golden or yellow cup or just cup because she spoke mysteriously, maybe in relation to her being a witch.

She became the namesake of the Celts according to the OLB and Alewyn says it means cult.

I think it is in relation to the Golden Cauldrons of the Celts.

The Gundstrup Cauldron is silver but it might hold a similar meaning, from Denmark.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gundestrup_cauldron

Yes, but the point is: how was this marsh marigold known back then?

The Calendula officinalis was known as 'calta' amongst the Romans, and there were Roman legions (even emperors came there) in The Netherlands.

[The Puzzler]

I'm going on her name was Sijrhed, which would have meant beautiful if it is Sigrid. Most German type people did name their children for looks or features, she would have been named Sijrhed because she was a beautiful baby or child. Cinderella, a German, is named because she was covered in cinders from the fire, it's common to do.

The mariners called her Kalta.

On the other side of the Scheldt, at Flyburgt, Sijrhed presided. This maiden was full of tricks. Her face was beautiful, and her tongue was nimble; but the advice that she gave was always conveyed in mysterious terms. Therefore the mariners called her Kalta, and the landsmen thought it was a title.

It does seem clear here the mariners gave her this name, Kalta because the advice she gave was always conveyed in mysterious terms.

These mariners seems to call things other names - like Aldland, the mariners called it Atland.

Atland is the title of Olof Rudbeck's book. Atland means fatherland apparently. Aldland, the Old land.

Nyhellenia's real name was Min-erva.

Here's another part where the seafaring people have another name:

In order to make a favourable impression, they had themselves called in our language followers of the truth; but they had better have been called abstainers from the truth, or, in short, “Triuwenden,” as our seafaring people afterwards called them.

It seems to me the mariner's knew words and meanings that locals did not know.

The landspeople thought Kalta was a title. Like Kalta Sijrhed.

The news flew through the land like lightning, and before the carrier’s wheel had made one revolution she was mistress of all the Thyriers in all our southern states as far as the Seine. She built herself a citadel on the high land to the north, and called it Kaltasburgh. It still exists under the name of Kêrenak. From this castle she ruled as a true mother, against their will, not for her followers, but over them, who were thenceforth called Kelts.

Alewyn, I see you have Kaltenar in Spain but it seems as though it is a city they are talking about. A Citadel called Kaltasburgh, still exisiting under the name Kerenak. It sounds like this citadel is on the high land to the North (of the Seine).

It's hard to find what the word Kelts came from, sometimes Celts but my own idea is it came from calling them Salts as they worked the salt mines in Hallstat, the earliest area we find mention of Celts. A Selt was also a sword.

Kaltasburg could be Salzburg. Salt Fortress. It is not North of the Seine but from Marseilles it is North, which is where Kalta was at. Austria is high land.

The first settlements at Salzburg were apparently begun by the Celts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salzburg

Kalta, who, people said, could go as easily on the water as on the land, went to the mainland and on to Missellia (Marseilles). Then came the Gauls out of the Mediterranean Sea with their ships to Cadiz, and along all our coasts, and fell upon Britain; but they could not make any good footing there, because the government was powerful and the exiles were still Frisians. But now came Kalta and said: You were born free, and for small offences have been sent away, not for your own improvement, but to get tin by your labour. If you wish to be free again, and take my advice, and live under my care, come away. I will provide you with arms, and will watch over you. The news flew through the land like lightning, and before the carrier’s wheel had made one revolution she was mistress of all the Thyriers in all our southern states as far as the Seine. She built herself a citadel on the high land to the north, and called it Kaltasburgh. It still exists under the name of Kêrenak. From this castle she ruled as a true mother, against their will, not for her followers, but over them, who were thenceforth called Kelts.

All OLB quotes from http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#au

[The Puzzler]

Yes, but the point is: how was this marsh marigold known back then?

The Calendula officinalis was known as 'calta' amongst the Romans, and there were Roman legions (even emperors came there) in The Netherlands.

I agree that in one language, that of the sea faring mariners, Kalta meant golden cup, possibly in reference to the flower Marigold Calendula that was used by witches and even because of the golden cup mushroom, which is probably also used in that sort of thing and this might have tranferred through to the Golden Cups in myth and also that became Grails and Trophys. Remember Sijrhed if Sigrid means beautiful, wisdom and VICTORY. Trophies. The name fits like this I tell ya.

[The Puzzler]

Yes, but the point is: how was this marsh marigold known back then?

The Calendula officinalis was known as 'calta' amongst the Romans, and there were Roman legions (even emperors came there) in The Netherlands.

A buttercup. It's not Calendula officinalis, it's Caltha Palustris, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marsh_marigold

called a Marsh Marigold, it's actually a: Ranunculaceae (buttercup or crowfoot family; Latin rānunculus "little frog", from rāna "frog") is a family of about 1700 species of flowering plants in about 60 genera distributed worldwide.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranunculaceae

A buttercup. A poisonous plant/weed.

A yellow cup.

A golden cup.

Now, the Ranunculaceae family includes a plant called the Delphinium.

[SlimJim22]

Reading about these golden cups last night really got me thinking. You make a compelling story Puzz and if there is truth to the OLB then I think you are close. The idea of 'riverfolk' has intrigued me for a while and what I've noticed from the OLB is the role of women as warriors and leaders alongside men. This harks back to the more ancient cultures but some of them survived.

There was the Finfolk of the Orkneys, the Fens of which Boudiccia was the ruler, that lady from the Getae but I forget her name and the amazonians of Sparta. The OLB makes claims of voyages to the Americas and maybe just maybe there is a hint of truth to that. Apparently there was an amazonian queen of America by the name Califia and this is where California gets it's name.

The OLB is confusing but from it I can deduce the culture in question was largely water based, interesting then that water marigolds are connected. Women played a more important role and magick or more likely advanced herbology was also known.

Here is a translation of the OLB for anyone who has not got a copy.

http://cruisenews.net/atlantis/oeralinda.html

And a link on Orellana who reported of the advanced culture of the Amazonian Basin. The site has extensive other theories about the sea people or river folk and how myth has all but removed their memory as anything more than a legend. It seems to make sense to me that if the OLB is authetic then it would be a reference to this distinct culture.

http://mermaid-williambond.blogspot.com/2008/01/chapter-nine-amazons-of-amazon-river.html

[The Puzzler]

I'm not exactly sure how Kalta being golden cup or buttercup transfers to salt but I still think Salzburg is the likely place. If Celts was Salts it would be Celts burg or Kaltas Burg. Kalts Burg.

When I tried to search for Kaltsburg it said - did you mean Saltsburg? Yes, I probably did...

Austria is a hop, skip and jump from where the Villanovan culture was and it is known that they interacted.

By the 6th century BC, the Halstatt culture extended for some 1000 km, from the Champagne-Ardenne in the west, through the Upper Rhine and the upper Danube, as far as the Vienna Basin and the Danubian Lowland in the east, from the Main, Bohemia and the Little Carpathians in the north, to the Swiss plateau, the Salzkammergut and to Lower Styria.

It is named for its type site, Hallstatt, a lakeside village in the Austrian Salzkammergut southeast of Salzburg. The culture is commonly linked to Proto-Celtic and Celtic populations in its western zone and with (pre-)Illyrians in its eastern zone.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallstatt_culture

Pre-Illyrian...what's that? A Trojan...

Hallstat A that is c. 1200-1000BC saw some Villanovan influence.

The Hallstatt culture, extending from about 1200 BC until around 500 BC, is divided by archaeologists into four phases:

date BC

HaA 1200-1000

HaB 1000-800

HaC 800-650

HaD 650-475

Hallstatt A-B are part of the Bronze Age Urnfield culture. Phase A saw Villanovan influence. In phase B, tumulus (kurgan) burial becomes common, and cremation predominates

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallstatt_culture

Which means the people thought to be the Etruscans had contact with this Hallstat culture of pre-Celtic people, maybe Kalta's group of Celts. Not only that it gives the link from Celtic to Italy around the time of the Trojan War.

Delphinium, another plant of the same Buttercup family, known for it's beautiful shade of Delphinian Blue, apparently the Latin name Delphin is for dolphin.

Dolphins are very Aegean and associated with Poseidon.

It was probably called Lark Spur before being latinized.

All parts of the plant contain an alkaloid delphinine and are very poisonous, causing vomiting when eaten, and death in larger amounts. In small amounts, extracts of the plant have been used in herbal medicine. Gerard's Herbal reports that drinking the seed of larkspur was thought to help against the stings of scorpions, and that other poisonous animals could not move when covered by the herb, but does not believe it himself. Grieve's herbal reports that the seeds can be used against parasites, especially lice and their nits in the hair. A tincture is used against asthma and dropsy [4]. The juice of the flowers, mixed with alum, gives a blue ink. The plant was connected to Saint Odile and in popular medicine used against eye diseases. It was one of the herbs used on the feast of St. John and as such warded against lightning. In Transylvania, it was used to keep witches from the stables, probably because of its black color.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delphinium'>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delphinium

Apollo, being a healer was probably very aware of many herbs, good and bad.

Delphi (Greek Δελφοί, /ðelˈfi/[1]) is both an archaeological site and a modern town in Greece on the south-western spur of Mount Parnassus in the valley of Phocis.

The name Delphoi comes from the same root as δελφύς delphys, "womb" and may indicate archaic veneration of Gaia, Grandmother Earth, and the Earth Goddess at the site.[4][5] Apollo is connected with the site by his epithet Δελφίνιος Delphinios, "the Delphinian". The epithet is connected with dolphins (Greek δελφίς,-ῖνος) in the Homeric Hymn to Apollo (line 400), recounting the legend of how Apollo first came to Delphi in the shape of a dolphin, carrying Cretan priests on his back. The Homeric name of the oracle is Pytho (Πυθώ).[6]

In the inner hestia ("hearth") of the Temple of Apollo, an eternal flame burned. After the battle of Plataea, the Greek cities extinguished their fires and brought new fire from the hearth of Greece, at Delphi; in the foundation stories of several Greek colonies, the founding colonists were first dedicated at Delphi

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delphi

I'll also just add this part from same Delphi link:

The temple survived until 390 A.D., when the Christian emperor Theodosius I silenced the oracle by destroying the temple and most of the statues and works of art in the name of Christianity.[24] The site was completely destroyed by zealous Christians in an attempt to remove all traces of Paganism.

It was a completely Pagan temple desecrated by Christians.

Edited August 21, 2010 by The Puzzler

[Swede]

Hi Abe,

The so-called would not touch the Oera Linda Book with a barch pole.

Having said that, I took it upon myself to translate Dr. JG Ottema's Foreword to his second edition of The Oera Linda Book (1876) from Dutch to English for our non-Dutch readers. This is my first attempt ever to translate anything out of Dutch so don't be too harsh.

What is evident (according to Ottema) is that the original manuscript was already known to exist in 1848/1850. That would have been when the Reverend (Ds)Haverscmidt was still in school and possibly even primary school. He only graduated from university in ca 1858.

Another point that Ottema made is that any artificial colouring of the pages by any liquid (such as tea) would have penetrated and stained all the fibres in the paper. In stead we find that any tears on the pages show that the inside of the pages are still white. To my mind (and his) this shows the result of a natural aging process spanning centuries.

It is also interesting to note that even in 1867 everybody tried to find the "fraudster". There was even talk about a reward. By the way, Ds Haverscmidt was directly questioned and he denied any involvement in the writing of the Oera Linda Book. According to Ottema, Dr Verwijs was also very skeptical about the authenticity of the book - all part of the plot? I don't think so.

The more this debate and research continue the more I am convinced that the Oera Linda Book is not a fake. I would like to suggest that it is time the orignal Oera Linda manuscript be subjected to independent forensic analyses.

Herewith Dr Ottema's "Voorbericht":(Comments in brackets are my own)

Foreword to the second edition of the Oera Linda Book.

by Dr. J.G. Ottema

September 1876

The first edition of the Oera Linda Book has been sold out and as a result, the opportunity has arisen to publish a second edition. I welcome this opportunity because it allows me to correct some mistakes that crept in previously or to improve on a less accurate translation.

Since its first appearance (and) even before it was printed, the book has been criticised and rejected. Many tried to prevent it from being published or distributed.

Not only within, but also ouside the country people rallied against the book as though the well-being of the country and people depended on its authenticity.

What did the poor book do to deserve such hatred and bitterness? Is the text and language such gibberish and nonsense that it does not deserve to be read; well, people do not read it. If they do read it, they will also read what I wrote in the Introduction, the Historical Notes, the Royal Academy and the Oera Linda Book, and De Deventer Newspaper and the Oera Linda Book. Yet, this is exactly what they don’t do. People do not want to be informed about the nature, the scope or the scientific value of the book. It is much easier and enjoyable to blindly reject and shout the book down than doing a serious examination thereof. Everyone, whether they only saw the book superficiously or heard about it, consider themselves qualified to express a derogatory opinion about it. Their verdict is triumphantly published in all newspapers, cheered on by the ignorant public and the country has been saved.

Now messrs F. Muller and P. Smidt of Gelder, Amsterdam examined the paper of the manuscript and alleged in the Nederlandsch Spectator no. 32 of 5th August 1876 that the paper was manufactured during this century and more specifically within the last 25 years in the factory (paper mill) of messrs Tielens and Schrammen in Maastricht.

Mr Muller based his views on the following grounds:

1. Paper of the 13th century was entirely made of cotton, thick, uneven, woolly (and) with uneven and unclear lines. This paper is thin, even, hard, here and there transparent with regular clear waterlines.

Answer:

Cotton Paper from the 13th century had to be specifically prepared by “polishing” before one could write thereon. The Arabians and Goths(?) did this in the same way as the Egyptians did with their paper and the Romans glossed their finer parchment by rubbing it with the tusks of wild pigs, apri dente levigatur (Plinius). To get an even surface they would burnish the paper with agate. By rubbing the paper the fibres became denser, smoother and thinner than it was.

Even so, one cannot call the paper of the Manuscript thin. The Manuscript consists of 96 pages of a thickness comparable to the best Dutch paper types which does not belong to the thinner varieties.

I must point out that the samples of paper that Mr Muller saw earlier were unprepared and unpolished and therefore we must disagree.

2. Paper from earlier times until about 1800 was thinner in the middle than outside the waterlines. This paper (the Manuscript) is even, which shows that it is from this century.

Answer:

I note that the reference to earlier times does not go back further than the 14th century when linen paper instead of cotton paper was increasingly used as paper manufacturing spread throughout Europe. This observation, therefore, does not apply to cotton paper from the 13th century and cannot be used as an argument that the manuscript dates from the present.

The distinction with present paper is evident in the following four important points:

a. The width of the horizontal waterlines. Over a distance of 33 millimetres one gets 16 horizontal lines so that the width of each line is 2 mm. Machine paper shows in this distance 17 to 18 such lines with a width of not more than 1.85mm. Heavy English mail paper has 20 such lines, each with a width of 1.65mm

b. The absence of chlorine. An experiment done in my presence by the late Mr. A.P.H. Kuipers showed that the paper did not react in the slightest with silver and therefore clearly did not contain any chlorine. All paper manufactured during this century have been treated with chlorine which in the same experiment with silver leaves a white residue.

c. The absence of starch, amylum. The experiment with an iodine solution produces a pure and brilliant violet colour on machine paper but on the manuscript it had no effect and left the brown colour of the iodine unchanged, at least not more than with any other natural plant manufactured fibres because there are no amylum present in plant material. The (Manuscript’s) paper, therefore, was manufactured without the addition of starch and thus not in the present century.

d. In examining the waterlines there is another big difference between machine produced paper and the Manuscript. In the first case the lines are very clear but in the latter they are almost invisible to such an extent that Dr E. Verwijs in a letter d.d. Leiden 1 Dec 1870 (i.e. after having had the manuscript in his hands for 3 years) wrote to myself: “Further, the paper appears very suspicious. It appears that the paper was hung in smoke. If one tears the paper it appears whiter at the tear. There is no watermark to be found and I have never seen paper from the Middle Ages without a watermark and I cannot even imagine that.”

Dr Verwijs therefore has not seen a watermark in all this time even when he was looking for it. It was not possible when he had machine produced paper (to compare with)

3. The paper is coloured yellow but not naturally so.

Answer:

If the paper was (artificially) coloured, i.e. painted, the colouring would have penetrated the paper, but this is not the case. At the tear one can clearly see that the paper is white on the inside. The dirty yellowish black colour of the paper is solely the result of time and aging over more than six centuries.

The fact that the paper was so well preserved over this time and not damaged by damp or mildew is prove of the meticulous care taken to protect this precious family heirloom.

4. The paper was cut off very smoothly and evenly; Paper from the 13th century cannot be cut without ravelling.

Answer:

This may be the case with unpolished paper but proves nothing with polished and therefore denser paper and in any event it depends on the sharpness of the knife or scissors used.

5. The paper cuts makes me think of machine produced paper, where the perpendicular waterlines (pontuseaux) could be produced but I am not aware whether the horizontal lines of paper frames could be present; if so, then I regard it as proper machine produced paper not older than 25 to 30 years. Earlier than this one could not make lines on machine produced paper.

Answer:

I have in front of me an authentic statement of messrs E. van Berk, P. Uurbanus, A.J. Leijer and T. Mooy resident in den Helder wherein they give the assurance that between 1848 and 1850 the existence of the manuscript later published under the title of Thet Oera Linda Bok was already known.

This statement was published in its entirety in the Heldersche newspaper of 12 March 1876.

With this Mr. Muller’s argument collapses about machine produced paper which, according to his claim of 25 or 30 years, i.e. before 1848, paper could not have been made with horizontal waterlines.

The paper of the manuscript therefore was not made in the 19th century. From the 14th to the 18th century no paper was made without a watermark but in the manuscript there is no trace of a watermark.

It was thus also not manufactured in the 14th or later centuries. The only conclusion therefore is that the paper came from the 13th century.

6. The paper was bound into a book by means of holes. It is too hard around the holes to be old; also the method of binding is too modern and totally different from other old books; in addition less holes and thicker strands of parchment were used than is evident here.

Answer:

If Mr. Muller saw the complete manuscript he would have noticed that the spine nowhere shows any traces of glue. That proves that it was not bound by any modern methods, nor by string, parchment or strips but rather by a very simple and primitive method of securing with needle and thread in a cover of parchment which one still find in the trade such as with calendars and so forth.

This anyone can do and this is what Hiddo Oera Linda also did because he could not entrust the Manuscript to any (professional) book binders who (by and large) performed their work in monasteries. He warned his son about monks and that they must never (be allowed to) see the Manuscript.

7. The writing is too new for an old document. The ink lies on the paper an has not affected the paper in any way which should have happened with an old document.

The ink is too black. In olden times the ink was lighter and with time it turned brown.

Answer:

In response to this I present the views of Wattenbach, in “Schriffcwesen im Mittelalter” (Middle Ages):

“In old manuscripts, the ink is black or brownish, always of a good to excellent quality. After 1300 AD, however, the ink often appears grey or yellowish and is sometimes quite faded.”

(The rest of the quote appears to explain the ingredients of the ink in German which I could not decipher)

What the ingredients of the ink was with which the Manuscript was written, I do not know; but I accept the statement of Wattenbach as to the good quality of the ink until the 13th century as proof of the Manuscript’s origin in the 13th century.

For these reasons I cannot associate myself or accept the opinions of messrs Muller and Van Gelder whose opinions in any event are not without prejudice. They essentially asked the question whether the Manuscript’s paper in any way conforms with paper from the present time. This is however the second part of the issue. The first and more important part is how does the writing compare to other manuscripts older than the 13th century.

In connection with this, I have one more remark to add. The writing was lined, possibly with lead but the age of the document caused the lines to fade and almost to disappear so much so that I could at first only suspect that the pages were ruled until Jhr(?) Hooft van Iddekinge pointed it out to me. When he first saw the manuscript he said that the paper was ruled and showed me the traces. Once I knew what to look for I could see the lines on every page. For this reason I redrew the lines on the facsimile of page 45 to show how meticulous the lines were drawn and the letters written between them. In fact it made me realise how much time and effort were spent on the Manuscript. From this I copied the script page for page onto normal ruled paper which would have taken some 300 hours. That would only be the copying. In addition, a fraudster would have had to compile the book, in a unique language which had to be different from known Frisian dialects which all differ in spelling, syntax, etc. Against this one would have had to invent a dialect that would have been spoken between the Flie and the Schelde. Lastly one would have had to invent letters and an alphabet that would be more suitable to the Frisian language than anything known.

In connection with the letters I must point out a very distinctive feature:

The alphabet had no q and s. The prefixes qu,se, sch and de c at the beginning of words were still unknown which prove that this document dated from before Roman times. The c is not use any different than ch.

In the Frisian Legal Books (Friesche Rechtboeken) the language adopted the Latin style of writing.and independent signs before vowels were lost together with the prefixes gs, ng, and th. The influence of Latin, especially since Charlemagne, simplified the alphabet by reducing the number of letters but it also made the alphabet less suitable to the unique sounds in the Frisian language. In this regard the Frisian style and spelling were corrupted to the extend that is still felt by present day authors.

A fraudster would have had to consider the spelling and the alphabet of the old Frisian Laws without creating suspicion.

This (the Manuscript) is not some trivial task that some joker carried out just to fool somebody. To accept this is quite irregular. That however is nothing.

The negative criticism of modern science do not accept any irregularities. If they have decided that the Oera Linda book is not authentic then it must be false, whatever it takes. Now they search everywhere to find the culprit; there is even talk of a price on the head of the offender and a reward for anyone who turns him in. Yet, all this is in vain for the simple reason that such a person does not exist and never has.

In the meantime the public is frightened by the question: “Do you still believe in the Oera Linda Book?” My answer is: Yes Gentlemen.

I have now spent almost six years in studying the book over and over from inside and outside, in the context of the old Greek and Latin literature but nowhere could I find any grounds for doubt. That is why I still believe that the Oera Linda Book is authentic and that is why I present the second edition.

Leeuwarden, Sept. 1876.

Dr. J.G. Ottema

Have followed this topic as much as my limited time will allow. I concur that a qualified re-evaluation of the "original" would be productive. A simple radio-carbon date would be most informative.

As to Ottema's evaluation presented above, I did notice some potential problems. This is rather to be expected given the time of the writing and the limited data available at the time. One of the first issues would be his analysis of the paper, particularly in regards to the use of cotton. The following may be of interest;

http://cool.conservation-us.org/byorg/abbey/ap/ap05/ap05-5/ap05-503.html

http://castle.eiu.edu/historia/archives/2006/Harzinski.pdf

http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/articles/cotton.html

http://abacus.bates.edu/wmarchive/Information.html

.

[SlimJim22]

What are the chances of a connection with the Swan Brotherhood? I am unconced but this writer thinks they are very closely related to the OLB in some way. See if you can make anything of it.

http://the-bohemian-register.blogspot.com/2009/09/my-grand-entry-into-republican-party.html

Here is something on the lanterns.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julleuchter

[The Puzzler]

Reading about these golden cups last night really got me thinking. You make a compelling story Puzz and if there is truth to the OLB then I think you are close. The idea of 'riverfolk' has intrigued me for a while and what I've noticed from the OLB is the role of women as warriors and leaders alongside men. This harks back to the more ancient cultures but some of them survived.

There was the Finfolk of the Orkneys, the Fens of which Boudiccia was the ruler, that lady from the Getae but I forget her name and the amazonians of Sparta. The OLB makes claims of voyages to the Americas and maybe just maybe there is a hint of truth to that. Apparently there was an amazonian queen of America by the name Califia and this is where California gets it's name.

The OLB is confusing but from it I can deduce the culture in question was largely water based, interesting then that water marigolds are connected. Women played a more important role and magick or more likely advanced herbology was also known.

Here is a translation of the OLB for anyone who has not got a copy.

http://cruisenews.net/atlantis/oeralinda.html

And a link on Orellana who reported of the advanced culture of the Amazonian Basin. The site has extensive other theories about the sea people or river folk and how myth has all but removed their memory as anything more than a legend. It seems to make sense to me that if the OLB is authetic then it would be a reference to this distinct culture.

http://mermaid-williambond.blogspot.com/2008/01/chapter-nine-amazons-of-amazon-river.html

Cool. I tell you, it really does seem like some blonde Nordics did make it into the Americas and the Natives took on board some of their religious ideas and gave them their own spin. But I better not stray there right now, I'm having enough trouble staying on track here!

My favourites from the Delphic Oracle is this one...

According to Plato's Apology, Socrates' life as the "gadfly" of Athens began when his friend Chaerephon asked the oracle at Delphi if anyone was wiser than Socrates; the Oracle responded that none was wiser. Socrates believed that what the Oracle had said was a paradox, because he believed he possessed no wisdom whatsoever. He proceeded to test the riddle by approaching men considered wise by the people of Athens—statesmen, poets, and artisans—in order to refute the Oracle's pronouncement. Questioning them, however, Socrates concluded that, while each man thought he knew a great deal and was wise, in fact they knew very little and were not wise at all. Socrates realized that the Oracle was correct, in that while so-called wise men thought themselves wise and yet were not, he himself knew he was not wise at all, which, paradoxically, made him the wiser one since he was the only person aware of his own ignorance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socrates

[The Puzzler]

Just on that Socrates link still this popped out at me...

(OK, the censor thing has gone nuts, the word there is cockerel or rooster.)

Shortly before his death, Socrates speaks his last words to Crito: "Crito, we owe a c*** to Asclepius.Please, don't forget to pay the debt."

According to Plato.

We owe a c*** to Asclepius, what could that mean? I am sure it is extremely cryptic and they say it signifies something like this...

Asclepius was the Greek god for curing illness, and it is likely Socrates' last words meant that death is the cure—and freedom, of the soul from the body. Additionally, in Why Socrates Died: Dispelling the Myths, Robin Waterfield adds another interpretation of Socrates' last words. He suggests that Socrates was a voluntary scapegoat; his death was the purifying remedy for Athens’ misfortunes. In this view, the token of appreciation for Asclepius would represent a cure for the ailments of Athens.

a cure for the ailments of Athens, a c*** was the token given to Asclepius.

Let's see what the c*** is representative of in the OLB book with Kalta....

but the c*** in his lewdness and his pride is only fit to murder his nearest relations.

Oh, I see....

When he (Cecrops) died, his successors soon began to tear up our charters, and gradually to enact so many unsuitable statutes that at long last nothing remained of liberty but the shadow and the name. Besides, they would not allow the laws to be written, so that the knowledge of them was hidden from us. Formerly all the cases in Athens were pleaded in our language, but afterwards in both languages, and at last in the native language only. At first the men of Athens only married women of our own race, but the young men as they grew up with the girls of the country took them to wife. The b****** children of this connection were the handsomest and cleverest in the world; but they were likewise the wickedest, wavering between the two parties, paying no regard to laws or customs except where they suited their own interests. As long as a ray of Frya’s spirit existed, all the building materials were for common use, and no one might build a house larger or better than his neighbours; but when some degenerate townspeople got rich by sea-voyages and by the silver that their slaves got in the silver countries, they went to live out on the hills or in the valleys. There, behind high enclosures of trees or walls, they built palaces with costly furniture, and in order to remain in good odour with the nasty priests, they placed there likenesses of false gods and unchaste statues. Sometimes the dirty priests and princes wished for the boys rather than the girls, and often led them astray from the paths of virtue by rich presents or by force. Because riches were more valued by this lost and degenerate race than virtue or honour, one sometimes saw boys dressed in splendid flowing robes, to the disgrace of their parents and maidens, and to the shame of their own sex. If our simple parents came to a general assembly at Athens and made complaints, a cry was raised, Hear, hear! there is a sea-monster going to speak. Such is Athens become, like a morass in a tropical country full of leeches, toads, and poisonous snakes, in which no man of decent habits can set his foot.

Edited August 21, 2010 by The Puzzler

[Abramelin]

I hope Alwyn can read the next Dutch texts, because I am getting a bit tired of havng to translate almost continuously.

It's about Ottema's suicide (he hanged himself) in 1879. The first text says that a critical review (in 1876) of the OLB by a J. Beckering Vinckers completely burnt the OLB down to sinders. Also two paper analyses of the manuscript were done in the same year, independently: the conclusion was both times that the paper was 30 years old, and they even had a fairly good idea what paper factory it was produced by.

And about Haverschmidt, he was a viccar/ preacher, who also killed himself, in 1894

The suggestion made in the second text is that Haverschmidt felt tremendously guilty of the suicide of Ottema.

Het boek werd echter ook zijn dood. In 1876 brandde de filoloog J. Beckering Vinckers in een lezing getiteld: De onechtheid van het Oera Linda-Bôk, aangetoond uit de wartaal waarin het is geschreven, op grond van een taalkundige analyse van enkele bladzijden, Ottema volkomen af. In hetzelfde jaar onderzochten de papierfabrikant P. Schmidt van Gelder en zijn meesterknecht, onafhankelijk van elkaar, het papier van het manuscript. Unaniem was hun conclusie dat het machinaal papier was, ongeveer dertig jaar oud en naar alle waarschijnlijkheid afkomstig van de fabriek van Tielens en Schrammen in Maastricht. In 1879 - hij was toen 75 jaar - verhing Ottema zich.

http://historischhuis.nl/recensiebank/review/show/414

Ook deed HaverSchmidt verwoede pogingen om Piet Paaltjens van zich af te schudden, die immers uit dezelfde studentikoze overmoed was ontstaan. Piet Paaltjens werd achtereenvolgens verbannen naar Schiermonnikoog, veranderd in een gemoedelijke sigarenhandelaar en naar de slagvelden in Frankrijk gestuurd. Enkele maanden na Ottema’s dood droeg HaverSchmidt in Schiedam zelfs een verhaal voor waarin Piet Paaltjens een verbond heeft met de duivel. En in de afsluitende Oudejaarspreek van datzelfde jaar 1879 maakt hij zichzelf de ergste verwijten:

„En hoe zouden wij het gedragen hebben wanneer het ons van tevoren gezegd was dat die slag ons treffen zou? [...] Hoe brandt u de wonde van uw hart! [...] Een gevolg van onze misstappen is dat wij vanavond minder rustig en dankbaar op het oude jaar kunnen terugzien dan anders het geval zou zijn.”

De trouwe kerkgangers zullen wel gedacht hebben: wat bezielt de dominee vanavond toch? 1879 was toch helemaal niet zo’n slecht jaar? Maar zij wisten niet met welke demon HaverSchmidt, die in 1894 zelfmoord pleegde, de rest van zijn leven zou worstelen.

http://www.nrcboeken.nl/nieuws/francois-haverschmidt%E2%80%99s-demonen

[Abramelin]

I agree that in one language, that of the sea faring mariners, Kalta meant golden cup, possibly in reference to the flower Marigold Calendula that was used by witches and even because of the golden cup mushroom, which is probably also used in that sort of thing and this might have tranferred through to the Golden Cups in myth and also that became Grails and Trophys. Remember Sijrhed if Sigrid means beautiful, wisdom and VICTORY. Trophies. The name fits like this I tell ya.

You agree?? Well, we both had a couple of ideas about the origin of the name Kalta.

Well, I did something else again. Kalta seemed to have had close relationships with the Golar (Gauls/Celts).

So I thought, what could her name mean in some Celtic language?

I didn't come very far if anywhere with the Breton language, so I tried Welsh which is closest to Bretonnic.

celwydd [-au, m.] - (n.) lie, falsehood, untruth, fib, mendacity

dweud celwydd - (v.) lie, prevaricate

{ (lie) Dweud celwydd is lie when you tell a falsehood. }

celwyddgar - (adj.)

celwyddgi [celwyddgwn, m.] - (n.)

celwyddo [celwydd-] - (v.) lie, tell lies, fib, equivocate, prevaricate

{ (lie) Celwyddo is lie when you tell a falsehood. }

celwyddog - (adj.) lying, mendacious; false

celwyddwr [celwyddwyr, m.] - (n.) liar

celyd - (adj.pl.)

http://www.cs.cf.ac.uk/fun/welsh/LexiconWE_main.html

Here I found out how to pronounce Welsh:

http://www.omniglot.com/writing/welsh.htm

And then "celwyddo" sounded like "kelwitho" or "kel.tho"?? (Jim, heeeelp !!)

It looks like the Welsh for lies and liars was also the name for the Celts, lol.

Kalta is meant as a derogative title. Could it not just have meant 'liar'??

[The Puzzler]

What are the chances of a connection with the Swan Brotherhood? I am unconced but this writer thinks they are very closely related to the OLB in some way. See if you can make anything of it.

http://the-bohemian-register.blogspot.com/2009/09/my-grand-entry-into-republican-party.html

Here is something on the lanterns.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julleuchter

I have seen this guys Blogs before, I love his Frisian Atlantis...

To be honest I have no idea and his in depth research into his family is not something I myself have time to look into but from all my posts you should know by now that I see a heavy swan theme coming in from the North and just recently made comparisons again with Vercingatorix and Perseus as well as Mercury. The winged helmet. Here's a wonderful image of Odin wearing his swan helmet. This also shows much else to do with Odin such as his tipped spear and ravens and wolves, dragons and spirals.

Odin gels with the OLB in this way to me:

Scandinavian Óðinn emerged from Proto-Norse *Wōdin during the Migration period, artwork of this time (on gold bracteates) depicting the earliest scenes that can be aligned with the High Medieval Norse mythological texts. The context of the new elites emerging in this period aligns with Snorri's tale of the indigenous Vanir who were eventually replaced by the Æsir, intruders from the Continent.[1]

Parallels between Odin and Celtic Lugus have often been pointed out : both are intellectual gods, commanding magic and poetry. Both have ravens and a spear as their attributes. Julius Caesar (de bello Gallico, 6.17.1) mentions Mercury as the chief god of Celtic religion. A likely context of the diffusion of elements of Celtic ritual into Germanic culture is that of the Chatti, who lived at the Celtic-Germanic boundary in Hesse during the final centuries before the Common Era. (It should be remembered that many Indo-Europeanists hypothesize that Odin in his Proto-Germanic form was not the chief god, but that he only gradually replaced Týr during the Migration period.)

Wodan, who became a King God by the Magyar may be the continent people who took over the first God of Tyr, Mars, the Freyan God. The people of Tyr bought him down early into Europe while Wodin stayed with the Magyar/Finns who worshipped him and became part of the Aesir. The Aesir were iron Gods, from the continent who settled in over the Vanir Gods, the original Freyan Gods.

Freya is a Vanir (1st) Goddess...

The name Freyja ultimately means "the Lady", from a Common Germanic *Frawjō, cognate with modern German Frau. The theonym Freyja was thus an epitheton in origin, replacing a personal name that is now unattested.[1] The connection with and possible earlier identity of Freyja with Frigg (Frija) in the Common Germanic period is a matter of scholarly dispute.[1]

Like the name of the group of gods to which Freyja belongs, the Vanir, the name Freyja is not attested outside of Scandinavia, as opposed to the name of the goddess Frigg, who is attested as a goddess common among the Scandinavian and non-Scandinavian Germanic peoples, and whose name is reconstructed as Proto-Germanic *Frijjō. Evidence for the existence of a common Germanic goddess once known as *Fraujon does not exist, but scholars have commented that this may simply be due to lack of evidence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freyja

Apollo rode in a chariot led by swans when he retired to Hyperborea for half the year...

This image of Odin and Frigg is quite telling:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frigg

With that snake wrapped around his staff he could be Apollo or Ascepius, Moses..

Frigg, the later Aesir Freya, has the swan on her chair.

There is quite a difference between Freyja (Freya) and Frigg though.

I've showed the Divine Mirror before with the swan and if you follow it around enough I'm sure the swan holds many keys.

Nemesis, all Goddesses with wings I associate with the swan, Nemesis, mother of Helen, who laid the eggs was the swan, her divine retribution bought victory, seen in Nike and now Sijrhed, Sigrid meaning victory/trophy/golden cup.

The Golden eggs or apples could be connected to the Rose since the apple is actually of the Rose family.

The apple is the pomaceous fruit of the apple tree, species Malus domestica in the rose family (Rosaceae) and is a perennial. It is one of the most widely cultivated tree fruits, and the most widely known of the many members of genus Malus that are used by humans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple

Edited August 21, 2010 by The Puzzler

[Qoais]

Seeing the depths this conversation has gone to, perhaps I'm being too simplistic when I say he could just have owed someone a chicken.

[Abramelin]

Seeing the depths this conversation has gone to, perhaps I'm being too simplistic when I say he could just have owed someone a chicken.

Huh??

[SlimJim22]

My welsh is terrible but this site might help.

http://kimkat.org/amryw/1_vortaroy/geiriadur_cymraeg_saesneg_BAEDD_ce_1071e.htm

You are rigth with celwydd though it does mean liar.

Not sure if it is the same as celt or kelt though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_the_Celts

[Abramelin]

My welsh is terrible but this site might help.

http://kimkat.org/amryw/1_vortaroy/geiriadur_cymraeg_saesneg_BAEDD_ce_1071e.htm

You are rigth with celwydd though it does mean liar.

Not sure if it is the same as celt or kelt though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_the_Celts

Thanks Jim.

Heh, first I looked it up in my "The Welsh Pocket Dictionary" ("Y Geiriadur Bach") which I bought like 25 years ago in Wales (Merthyr Tydfyl - sp??). I always liked Welsh because it seemed a language from the stone age in my ears, lol (sorry).

But the suggestion in the OLB was that the Golar, or the Kaltians (followers of Kalta) were an untrustworthy lot.

Like Kalta herself, btw.

[The Puzzler]

Abe, possibly. I'll sleep on that one.

[The Puzzler]

Seeing the depths this conversation has gone to, perhaps I'm being too simplistic when I say he could just have owed someone a chicken.

lol Q, a last laugh before bed xox

Maybe Abe didn't get to read my post yet.

[Abramelin]

lol Q, a last laugh before bed xox

Maybe Abe didn't get to read my post yet.

Ah damn, yes. I get it and I did read your post, Puzz.

But Qoais made it sound like some English proverb or something, lol.

Hahaha, I even Googled it. No results, of course.

[Abramelin]

Puzz, in your post no 829, you said:

"Atland is the title of Olof Rudbeck's book. Atland means fatherland apparently. Aldland, the Old land."

I think I once read that he claimed that Swedish was the original language of Adam and Eve, and that his Atlantis was Scandinavia.

His book was from the 17th century.

Have you read it, and could it have inspired the writers of the OLB?

==

EDIT:

A bit from Wiki:

Between 1679-1702, Rudbeck dedicated himself to contributions in historical-linguistics patriotism, writing a 3,000-page treatise in four volumes called Atlantica (Atland eller Manheim in Swedish) where he purported to prove that Sweden was Atlantis, the cradle of civilization, and Swedish the original language of Adam from which Latin and Hebrew had evolved.[2] His work was criticized by several Scandinavian authors, including the Danish professor Ludvig Holberg, and the Swedish author and physician Andreas Kempe, both of whom wrote satires based on Rudbeck's writings. His work was later used by Dennis Diderot in the article "Etymologie" in Encyclopédie as a cautionary example of deceptive linking of etymology with mythical history.Despite the criticism targeting his linguistic theories and despite the priority dispute with Bartholin, Rudbeck remained a national icon in Sweden for many years. His son, Olof Rudbeck the Younger, continued his linguistic work and also became involved in providing an "intellectual reason" for power during a period when Sweden aspired to a position as one of the great powers of Europe. Rudbeck the Younger added speculations about the relationship between Sami and Hebrew languages to his father's long list of fantastical linguistic relationships.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olaus_Rudbeck

.

Edited August 21, 2010 by Abramelin

[SlimJim22]

Thanks Jim.

Heh, first I looked it up in my "The Welsh Pocket Dictionary" ("Y Geiriadur Bach") which I bought like 25 years ago in Wales (Merthyr Tydfyl - sp??). I always liked Welsh because it seemed a language from the stone age in my ears, lol (sorry).

But the suggestion in the OLB was that the Golar, or the Kaltians (followers of Kalta) were an untrustworthy lot.

Like Kalta herself, btw.

Good spelling. Messed up language but can sound beautiful when used by poets and bards. I don't know any though.

'Untrustworthy' would definitely fit from a roman/greek perspective but here is some stuff I found.

The name 'Celt' is a misnomer, by the way, but it has stuck and I will continue to use it. 'Keltoi' was a Greek word meaning 'uncivilized' and it referred to an Alpine people who may have been related to central Asians. Probably Celts came in contact with these people during their stay in central Europe, and accidentally became confused with them. It is also likely that they integrated with them. The proper name for the Celts may be 'Gaedheals'. Certainly the Gaels, a people of the same kind who took the Mediterranean route out of Circaesya, were descended from a man named Gaedheal Glas, son of Agnoman, who was in turn descended from Magog, son of Japheth. But people from the entire cultural group are now referred to as Celts, and there's no going back. Throughout their history the Chaldees, Faan, Athenians, Volsungrs and Germanic Vikings who joined the Gaedheals have been referred to inclusively as Celts, which creates quite a confusion for historians trying to trace the origin of the Gaedheals themselves.

http://www.angelfire.com/home/thefaery5/

http://www.imninalu.net/2history03.htm

Other possible meanings of Kalta include 'short', 'sin' or 'pubic hair'. I'd stay the stereotypical kelt was short, sinful and hairy so you never know.

http://www.indigogroup.co.uk/edge/celtic.htm

http://www.joellessacredgrove.com/Celtic/history.html

http://www.hinduwebsite.com/general/essays/celtic.asp

http://www.scripps.edu/bcmd/pdfarea/issue_20_98/lucotte.pdf

I imagine everything in the links other than DNA analysis would have been avialable in the 18th century.

[SlimJim22]

Really good link on Atland the frisian Atlantis.

http://the-bohemian-register.blogspot.com/2010/08/atland-frisian-atlantis-i-posted-this.html

When we're talking about celts, which we are only by association it seems, but the role of Arthurian legend as a christianized version of pagan myths is worth noting. Interesting then perhaps that the date of writing that Alewyn asserts is the 13th century and this was a time of the templars and all that. The templar heresy continues the symbolism of paganism such as the grail and the lance, etc. Is it possible that the authors of the OLB were a persecuted group just like the templars and anybody else who did not meet the catholic fetish. Probably nothing but anyone interested in celtic legend should read the link below.

http://tomdevoss.www2.50megs.com/celticorigins.htm