[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood

[The Puzzler]

Don't trust anything, even though it sounds nice.... sigh.

So here is a different version of that oath:

"There is a certain grandeur in the oath of Rustringen recorded in an old thirteenth-century document:

'We Frisians will defend our land with five arms: with sword and buckler, with spade, fork and spear, whether the tide be ebbing of flowing. We will fight day and night so that all Frisians may be free, both now and hereafter, as long as the wind blows through the clouds and the world remains.'

http://books.google.nl/books?id=uugOAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA57&lpg=PA57&dq=%22the+oath+of+Rustringen%22&source=bl&ots=A0vXO8vtEa&sig=Lr6Mz1rmkZDRNfliQ9ABv3ltSp0&hl=nl&ei=ISLJTZSyL4GAOpfazOoH&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22the%20oath%20of%20Rustringen%22&f=false

OK, and now to find the original Frisian text.

+++++++++++++++++++

EDIT:

Not found the original text yet, but I found something close and nowhere else then on the Taaldacht site (that gives me hope Van Renswoude can actually answer my question):

Ak skilu wí úse lond wera mith egge and mith orde and mith thá brúna skelde with thena stápa helm and with thene ráda skeld and with thet unriuchte hêrskipi.

(Ook zullen wij ons land verdedigen met zwaard en met speer en met het bruine schild tegen de hoge helm en tegen het rode schild en tegen de onrechte heerschappij.)

http://taaldacht.nl/2011/01/17/saksemarken-land-van-de-hoge-helm-en-het-rode-schild/

In English:

Also we will defend our land with sword and spear and with the brown shield against the high helmet and against the red shield and against the injust lordship/rule

And it is indeed a text from Rüstringen:

http://books.google.nl/books?id=wx-2mUd4KzEC&pg=PA103&lpg=PA103&dq=mith+egge+and+mith+orde+and+mith+tha+bruna+skelde&source=bl&ots=kJ549XV6QJ&sig=GcjmrrPf7DCAH6Rw_n9wQVDRjT0&hl=nl&ei=vSzJTcWOBM3n-gb9yLzIBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=mith%20egge%20and%20mith%20orde%20and%20mith%20tha%20bruna%20skelde&f=false

.

.

In this I noticed the word SKELDE as shield.

In the OLB the Scheldt with all it's fancy letters is actually spelt as SKELDA.

Saendfal nw Skelda wrdon Stjurar

shield

O.E. scield, scild, related to sciell (see shell), from P.Gmc. *skeldus (cf. O.N. skjöldr, O.S. skild, M.Du. scilt, Du. schild, Ger. Schild, Goth. skildus), from base *skel- "divide, split, separate," from PIE base *(s)kel- "to cut."

Here's the explanation for the name of the Scheldt:

The Scheldt (Dutch: Schelde [ˈsxɛldə], French Escaut) is a 350 km[1] long river in northern France, western Belgium and the southwestern part of the Netherlands. Its name is derived from an adjective corresponding to Old English sceald "shallow", Modern English shoal, Low German schol, Frisian skol, and Swedish skäll "thin".

So, does anyone have an idea if the word Scheldt could actually be named after the word for shield?

Sceald says shallow but shoal is more like a divide, maybe even a split or seperate, usually a shoal is some kind of sandbar that can divide the water.

We have places called shoal everything, Shoalhaven, I know what a shoal is. Plus the shoals in Atlantis, I'm always looking for shoals...

A shoal, sandbar (or just bar in context), or gravelbar is a somewhat linear landform within or extending into a body of water, typically composed of sand, silt or small pebbles.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoal

Kind of sounds like she'ol too.

So, I'm just wandering whether the word for Scheldt could actually be shield and in a newer form is actually shallows but used to mean shield, cut off, divide - like shield yourself from something, put up a barrier context.

Otharus, do you have an opinion on that one?

[Abramelin]

The English wiki, like you quoted, says this:

The Scheldt (Dutch: Schelde [ˈsxɛldə], French Escaut) is a 350 km[1] long river in northern France, western Belgium and the southwestern part of the Netherlands. Its name is derived from an adjective corresponding to Old English sceald "shallow", Modern English shoal, Low German schol, Frisian skol, and Swedish skäll "thin".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scheldt

But the Dutch Wiki says something different:

De Schelde (Frans: Escaut) is een rivier die ontspringt in de gemeente Gouy in Noord-Frankrijk en door Henegouwen en Vlaanderen via Gent en Antwerpen naar de Noordzee stroomt. Haar eerste benaming was 'Scaldis' in een Romeinse tekst uit de 1e eeuw voor Chr. Een andere naam was 'Scala'. Op een Engelse kaart uit 1797 vindt men de benaming Scheldt, net zoals de Antwerpenaar vandaag spreekt over 't Schelt'.

http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schelde_(rivier)

It says the oldest mentioning of the river was by the Romans in the 1st century BC, and the river was was called "Scaldis".

(maybe they found it to be nice and warm, lol: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/scaldare http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/excaldo#Latin )

.

Edited May 11, 2011 by Abramelin

[Knul]

The question, if there exists a relation between the Oera Linda Boek and the Rijmkroniek van Klaas Kolyn, has not yet been answered. The idea is, that the Oera Linda Boek has been written as a Frisian answer on the Dutch Rijmkroniek van Klaas Kolyn. Both books are known mystifications.

1. Both Kolyn and Oera Linda were "written" in the same decennium. Kolyn ca. 1260¹, Oera Linda in 1264.

2. Kolyn deals with the legendary Batavian past of the Counts of Holland, the Oera Linda Boek deels with the legendary Frisian past.

3. Kolyn has been presented as a medieval chronicle, Oera Linda as a northern saga.

4. Kolyn has been written in medieval Dutch, but shows Oldfrisian words, Oera Linda in Oldfrisian (Riustringian). Some sort of anyway.

5. Both mystifications mention the brown shield of the Frisans, mentioned in the Asega-boek.

6. Kolyn deals a.o. with the Frisian Chronicle of Ocko Scharlensis, which was originally rescued from fire, Oera Linda was rescued from water (flood).

7. Meeting point of the Dutch and Frisians in both books was the Creyll amidst Stavoren and Enkhuizen, claimed by both the Dutch and the Frisians.

8. Both books avoid to mention the volcano (Red Cliff) nearby and the god Stavo, mentioned several times in It aade Friesche terp.

9. The Dutch counts claimed Western Frisia, the Oera Linda denies such claims by showing a much older civilisation, own laws and organization in the same area.

¹Van Alkemade states ca. 1170, but he did not realize, that a monk would not write a poem for a count (Floris III), who had been banned officially by the bishop of Utrecht, because he had stolen the income of the Church of Vlaardingen. In my opinion it has been count Floris V, who was the object of the Rijmkroniek van Melis Stoke and the Spiegel Historiaal van Jacob van Maerlant too. No one could say, that Floris III reigned properly as he waisted money and left his countship alone, but the popular Floris V (der keerlen god) did.

knul

[The Puzzler]

Abe, what is the obsession with Rustringen?

What if it is closest to it, what does that mean to you?

There's too much going on here and my apologies if I missed some obvious thing you said about it, but just refresh me, what does it mean to you in regards to the authenticity of the OLB if this language is a type of Rustringen?

PS: Thanks for the shoal answer.

Edited May 11, 2011 by The Puzzler

[Abramelin]

Abe, what is the obsession with Rustringen?

What if it is closest to it, what does that mean to you?

There's too much going on here and my apologies if I missed some obvious thing you said about it, but just refresh me, what does it mean to you in regards to the authenticity of the OLB if this language is a type of Rustringen?

PS: Thanks for the shoal answer.

There are a couple of things.

Of course - as you know - it started with what I read on Knul's website: that it was J.H. Halbertsma and his brother who were in his eyes the main 'suspects' (but I think for a while now Halbertsma's work has been 'used').

Then I read on his site about the language used in the OLB being close to/ based on the old 13th century Rüstringen dialect.

And then I found out many things myself, like that Rüstringen was a very important area during Viking and Hanze times.

Then I read that 18th century poem by Willem van Haren, a poem extensively studied and analyzed by Joost Halbertsma, and learned about the original name (according to that poem) of Frisia: "Land der Alanen", or "Land of the Alans". For a long time I suspected that it was the result of what we call 'poetic freedom', or spicing up a legend (the legend about Friso coming from India with his brothers, and so on) to create nice running lines for your poem, only to find out later that there actually was a 'Land of the Alans', "Alanorum Saxonum Regio" bordering the Rüstringen area, in Oldenburg (Rüstringen was even once part of that district).

Of course then come the many floods that destroyed a large part of Rüstringen, some very close to the date of the flood mantioned in the very beginning of the OLB, 1256-1=1255 AD.

And did you read that line I quoted, about what those Rüstringers were willing to do for their freedom and the freedom of all the Frisians? I am not even a Frisian, but it was a line you want to frame and hang over the head of your bed, lol:

"There is a certain grandeur in the oath of Rustringen recorded in an old thirteenth-century document:

'We Frisians will defend our land with five arms: with sword and buckler, with spade, fork and spear, whether the tide be ebbing of flowing. We will fight day and night so that all Frisians may be free, both now and hereafter, as long as the wind blows through the clouds and the world remains.'

-

And only yesterday, when trying to find the original source for that line, I found a line in the Riustringer Riuchte Codex which had that "brown shield" in it, the only other place where it is mentioned, aside from the OLB and the Kolyn poem:

"Also we will defend our land with sword and spear and with the brown shield against the high helmet and against the red shield and against the injust lordship/rule"

-

I forgot to add that according to many who studied it (like professor R. Bremmer), the Old Riustringer dialect is the most archaic Frisian dialect that we now know of, something Halbertsma must have agreed with.

Edited May 11, 2011 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

Project: Etymological Dictionary of the Old Frisian Codex Riustringen 1

Titel: Etymologisch Woordenboek op de Oudfriese codex Riustringen 1

Abstract:

This project aims at seeing the manuscript of an Etymological Dictionary of the Old Frisian codex Riustringen 1 by the late Dr. Dirk Boutkan through the press. Riustringen 1 is said to contain the most archaic sample of Old Frisian.

http://www.onderzoekinformatie.nl/en/oi/nod/onderzoek/OND1287827/

[The Puzzler]

The English wiki, like you quoted, says this:

The Scheldt (Dutch: Schelde [ˈsxɛldə], French Escaut) is a 350 km[1] long river in northern France, western Belgium and the southwestern part of the Netherlands. Its name is derived from an adjective corresponding to Old English sceald "shallow", Modern English shoal, Low German schol, Frisian skol, and Swedish skäll "thin".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scheldt

But the Dutch Wiki says something different:

De Schelde (Frans: Escaut) is een rivier die ontspringt in de gemeente Gouy in Noord-Frankrijk en door Henegouwen en Vlaanderen via Gent en Antwerpen naar de Noordzee stroomt. Haar eerste benaming was 'Scaldis' in een Romeinse tekst uit de 1e eeuw voor Chr. Een andere naam was 'Scala'. Op een Engelse kaart uit 1797 vindt men de benaming Scheldt, net zoals de Antwerpenaar vandaag spreekt over 't Schelt'.

http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schelde_(rivier)

It says the oldest mentioning of the river was by the Romans in the 1st century BC, and the river was was called "Scaldis".

(maybe they found it to be nice and warm, lol: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/scaldare http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/excaldo#Latin )

.

I was going on with all this info and then I typed in scheldt and shield, this really is the information superhighway....

This is a book about the dating of Beowulf, there is notes at the bottom of this page explaining some more and I couldn't cut and paste the relevant lines so I typed them out and I really want to highlight them because I just thought of this and the confusion has been noted before:

We don't know how far this usage goes but we can be fairly confident that Scaldingi means Scyldingas 'shieldmen' or 'descendant of Scyld' and not 'men of the Scheldt' or 'men of the punted ship' the two other etymologies suggested.

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=kWs1Wvp0otAC&pg=PA127&lpg=PA127&dq=shield+and+scheldt&source=bl&ots=KzWDmZE-My&sig=08pKoGKLNUXAHFO4dZn-ZcvX2qk&hl=en&ei=-3TKTbS9N4bkrAe-gr2FBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10&ved=0CFUQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=shield%20and%20scheldt&f=false

[Abramelin]

I was going on with all this info and then I typed in scheldt and shield, this really is the information superhighway....

This is a book about the dating of Beowulf, there is notes at the bottom of this page explaining some more and I couldn't cut and paste the relevant lines so I typed them out and I really want to highlight them because I just thought of this and the confusion has been noted before:

We don't know how far this usage goes but we can be fairly confident that Scaldingi means Scyldingas 'shieldmen' or 'descendant of Scyld' and not 'men of the Scheldt' or 'men of the punted ship' the two other etymologies suggested.

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=kWs1Wvp0otAC&pg=PA127&lpg=PA127&dq=shield+and+scheldt&source=bl&ots=KzWDmZE-My&sig=08pKoGKLNUXAHFO4dZn-ZcvX2qk&hl=en&ei=-3TKTbS9N4bkrAe-gr2FBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10&ved=0CFUQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=shield%20and%20scheldt&f=false

I made a screenshot of the notes in the book in your link:

I am almost tempted to say the name had to do with "river of the shield-carrying men in pointed boats" or "river of the pointed boats with shields", lol :

But if that was true - and I won't count on it - then the origin of the name lies in Viking times, and not in Roman times or earlier.

.

Edited May 11, 2011 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

De naam van de rivier de Schelde vraagt ook om een korte toelichting. Deze rivier had in het Vlaamse en Franse heuvelland een Keltische naam die we bij de Romeinse schrijver Ptolemaeus tegenkomen als Tabuda. Wanneer de Romeinen in onze streken komen, heet de benedenloop van de rivier in het vlakke land bij de zee in de schriftelijke bronnen Scaldis. Daarin zit het woord 'skald', dat bij de Germanen 'ondiep' betekende. Het duidde op de talrijke zandplaten in de toen nog niet zo diepe riviermond. Vanuit de benedenloop heeft de naam zich stroomopwaarts verplaatst en tenslotte heette de hele rivier Schelde. In de volkstaal gebruikte men Scald of Scelt en in het Frans veranderde Escald tot Escaut. Van Scald zijn afgeleid Scalden en Scaltheim (828) alsmede Scolden, Scouden en Schouwen. De naam Schouwen wordt voor het eerst als Scouden vermeld in de 12de eeuw8. Ook het woord Scaldemariland (ca. 1130) is van Scald afgeleid en betekent Scheldeland of Scheldedelta.

http://www.nijhofnet.nl/reco/Van%20Reco/Zeeland%20kaarten/Duizen%20jaar%20Schouwen.pdf

Translation:

The name of the river Schelde asks for a short explanation. In the Flemish and French highlands this river had a Celtic name which was reported by Roman writer Ptolemy as "Tabuda". When the Romans arrive in our parts, the downstream part of the river in the flat lands near the sea is called "Scaldis" according to written sources. It contains the word "skald" which means "shallow" to the Germans. It pointed to the numerous shoals in the then not very deep river mouth. From downstream the name travelled upstream, and finally the whole river was called Schelde. In vernacular people used Scald or Scelt, and in French the name changed to Escald and then to Escaut. Derivations of Scald are Scalden and Scaltheim (828), as well as Scolden, Scouden and Schouwen. The name Schouwen is mentioned for the first time in the 12th century as Scouden. Also the word Scaldimariland (ca. 1130) has been derived from Scald and mean Scheldeland or Scheldedelta.

[Abramelin]

Sigh... I have searched for many hours in online German records about (storm) floods at the Nordsee coast during the middle ages, but found nothing happening at 1255.

So all one of us has to do is go to Leeuwarden, and search through old chonicles/records, and hope to find something about a flood or , "überschwemmung", occurring in 1255 AD.

========

And something else: does anyone know the etymology of the name of the "Jade River", the stream that ran east of Rüstringen and flooded it many times???

I will bet it has nothing to do with the gem with the same name (just to prevent another 'etymology' outburst, lol)...

.

Edited May 11, 2011 by Abramelin

[SlimJim22]

The Geest landscape of Friesische Wehde occupies the southern third of the district. The relief is slightly undulating and in the north east there is a range of low hills which are dissected by streams and valleys. The Geest ridges reach heights of 16.5m above sea level, the lowest valleys lie only 1.3m above sea level. In the valleys and in the transition zones close to the marsh there are also fens and humid sandy valleys which are partly interspersed with bands of marsh soils (e.g. in the region of the Zeteler Tief).

The feature which makes the Geest of East Frisia and Oldenburg so unique is the almost flat surface which ranges between 5 and 10 m above sea level and shows a stronger relief in the area of the dune landscapes. Numerous small rivers dissect the moraine plateau and characterise the landscape with its alternating moor areas and the sandy, drift-covered, moraine ridges.

The name Wehde derives from the Frisian word for forest and indicates a formerly wooded area. Today the letter “l”, derived from the noun “loh” (forest/ woodland), at the end of place names still indicates a formerly wooded area. Examples of such place names are Varel, Driefel or Ruttel. One of the greatest natural monuments of the Friesische Wehde is the Neuenburger Urwald (virgin forest of Neuenburg). It is all that remains of the formerly great medieval Hudewald (or Hutewald).

The post-glacial temperature rise and the melting of the inland ice caused a rise of the sea level. But this was neither a steady nor a constant development. Core samples from under the North Sea show that transgression was not only interrupted, but sometimes was even regressive.

The exact date of prehistoric settlement of the Friesischen Wehde is based only on indirect archaeological evidence. However, considering the wider archaeological context, it can be assumed that the Friesische Wehde was also part of local prehistoric and early historic developments. It can therefore be concluded that by the beginning of the post-glacial period, today’s southern North Sea coast was dry land and the areas of the river marshes and Geest ridge were frequented by Mesolithic hunters-gatherers and their predecessors.

Since about 4000 BC the region was settled by groups of farmers. This process is evidenced by many prehistoric sites, e.g. at Neuenburg, Driefel and Ruttel. The Neolithic marks the change from a natural landscape influenced by a hunter-gatherer economy towards a cultural landscape characterised by agriculture. The landscape development of the Geest was largely influenced by this prehistoric land-use, with its extensive forest clearance and the use of the resulting heathland. Important monuments dating to this period include the cairn to the east of Bockhorn with its large capstone and the barrows near Birkenfeld which are enclosed by stone circles.

The succeeding Bronze and Iron Ages (about 1000 to 600 B.C.) are also well represented by numerous sites like burial mounds and urn graves. The excavation of the Bronze Age boardwalk (1356 B.C.) across the moor between Büppel and Jethausen is of particular note, this seems to have provided a connection between the Geest and a harbour place on the Jade.

http://www.lancewadplan.org/Cultural%20atlas/LS/Friesische%20Wehde/friesische_wehde.htm

No doubt you have read this article but it does fit the kind of landscape where you can imagine many things happening long ago and the place still retains some of the feeling of those ancient times. I bet it would be very misty and beautiful, lots of forests and rivers that have a sense of magic about them.

Good candidate for a flood too. The name Jade though, could it be Jat related? I prefer to imagine Judah or something like that but either would be an incredible stretch of logic. Could not understand what they were saying with Wehde and "loh" would that mean Jade was pronounced lohde kind of like Yoda?

[Abramelin]

The Geest landscape of Friesische Wehde occupies the southern third of the district. The relief is slightly undulating and in the north east there is a range of low hills which are dissected by streams and valleys. The Geest ridges reach heights of 16.5m above sea level, the lowest valleys lie only 1.3m above sea level. In the valleys and in the transition zones close to the marsh there are also fens and humid sandy valleys which are partly interspersed with bands of marsh soils (e.g. in the region of the Zeteler Tief).

The feature which makes the Geest of East Frisia and Oldenburg so unique is the almost flat surface which ranges between 5 and 10 m above sea level and shows a stronger relief in the area of the dune landscapes. Numerous small rivers dissect the moraine plateau and characterise the landscape with its alternating moor areas and the sandy, drift-covered, moraine ridges.

The name Wehde derives from the Frisian word for forest and indicates a formerly wooded area. Today the letter “l”, derived from the noun “loh” (forest/ woodland), at the end of place names still indicates a formerly wooded area. Examples of such place names are Varel, Driefel or Ruttel. One of the greatest natural monuments of the Friesische Wehde is the Neuenburger Urwald (virgin forest of Neuenburg). It is all that remains of the formerly great medieval Hudewald (or Hutewald).

The post-glacial temperature rise and the melting of the inland ice caused a rise of the sea level. But this was neither a steady nor a constant development. Core samples from under the North Sea show that transgression was not only interrupted, but sometimes was even regressive.

The exact date of prehistoric settlement of the Friesischen Wehde is based only on indirect archaeological evidence. However, considering the wider archaeological context, it can be assumed that the Friesische Wehde was also part of local prehistoric and early historic developments. It can therefore be concluded that by the beginning of the post-glacial period, today’s southern North Sea coast was dry land and the areas of the river marshes and Geest ridge were frequented by Mesolithic hunters-gatherers and their predecessors.

Since about 4000 BC the region was settled by groups of farmers. This process is evidenced by many prehistoric sites, e.g. at Neuenburg, Driefel and Ruttel. The Neolithic marks the change from a natural landscape influenced by a hunter-gatherer economy towards a cultural landscape characterised by agriculture. The landscape development of the Geest was largely influenced by this prehistoric land-use, with its extensive forest clearance and the use of the resulting heathland. Important monuments dating to this period include the cairn to the east of Bockhorn with its large capstone and the barrows near Birkenfeld which are enclosed by stone circles.

The succeeding Bronze and Iron Ages (about 1000 to 600 B.C.) are also well represented by numerous sites like burial mounds and urn graves. The excavation of the Bronze Age boardwalk (1356 B.C.) across the moor between Büppel and Jethausen is of particular note, this seems to have provided a connection between the Geest and a harbour place on the Jade.

http://www.lancewadplan.org/Cultural%20atlas/LS/Friesische%20Wehde/friesische_wehde.htm

No doubt you have read this article but it does fit the kind of landscape where you can imagine many things happening long ago and the place still retains some of the feeling of those ancient times. I bet it would be very misty and beautiful, lots of forests and rivers that have a sense of magic about them.

Good candidate for a flood too. The name Jade though, could it be Jat related? I prefer to imagine Judah or something like that but either would be an incredible stretch of logic. Could not understand what they were saying with Wehde and "loh" would that mean Jade was pronounced lohde kind of like Yoda?

I liked the article, Jim.

But "Yoda"?? I know you are from the UK, but..please, lol.

=====

"Wehde" is similar to "Woud" (pronounced like 'wowt') or "Wald"... woods.

==

Jade is pronounced like "yah-duh"

.

Edited May 11, 2011 by Abramelin

[SlimJim22]

I liked the article, Jim.

But "Yoda"?? I know you are from the UK, but..please, lol.

=====

"Wehde" is similar to "Woud" (pronounced like 'wowt') or "Wald"... woods.

==

Jade is pronounced like "yah-du"

.

I got ya. I did know I was wrong so what does yah-du mean? The potential authors would have been familar with Wehde and Wahlda so not sure if it really helps but it helps me to picture it.

[Abramelin]

I got ya. I did know I was wrong so what does yah-du mean? The potential authors would have been familar with Wehde and Wahlda so not sure if it really helps but it helps me to picture it.

Always wait for my last edit, lol.

It's "yah-duh".

I'm done for today.

You can find me crawled up below my desk.

Good night.

[The Puzzler]

De naam van de rivier de Schelde vraagt ook om een korte toelichting. Deze rivier had in het Vlaamse en Franse heuvelland een Keltische naam die we bij de Romeinse schrijver Ptolemaeus tegenkomen als Tabuda. Wanneer de Romeinen in onze streken komen, heet de benedenloop van de rivier in het vlakke land bij de zee in de schriftelijke bronnen Scaldis. Daarin zit het woord 'skald', dat bij de Germanen 'ondiep' betekende. Het duidde op de talrijke zandplaten in de toen nog niet zo diepe riviermond. Vanuit de benedenloop heeft de naam zich stroomopwaarts verplaatst en tenslotte heette de hele rivier Schelde. In de volkstaal gebruikte men Scald of Scelt en in het Frans veranderde Escald tot Escaut. Van Scald zijn afgeleid Scalden en Scaltheim (828) alsmede Scolden, Scouden en Schouwen. De naam Schouwen wordt voor het eerst als Scouden vermeld in de 12de eeuw8. Ook het woord Scaldemariland (ca. 1130) is van Scald afgeleid en betekent Scheldeland of Scheldedelta.

http://www.nijhofnet.nl/reco/Van%20Reco/Zeeland%20kaarten/Duizen%20jaar%20Schouwen.pdf

Translation:

The name of the river Schelde asks for a short explanation. In the Flemish and French highlands this river had a Celtic name which was reported by Roman writer Ptolemy as "Tabuda". When the Romans arrive in our parts, the downstream part of the river in the flat lands near the sea is called "Scaldis" according to written sources. It contains the word "skald" which means "shallow" to the Germans. It pointed to the numerous shoals in the then not very deep river mouth. From downstream the name travelled upstream, and finally the whole river was called Schelde. In vernacular people used Scald or Scelt, and in French the name changed to Escald and then to Escaut. Derivations of Scald are Scalden and Scaltheim (828), as well as Scolden, Scouden and Schouwen. The name Schouwen is mentioned for the first time in the 12th century as Scouden. Also the word Scaldimariland (ca. 1130) has been derived from Scald and mean Scheldeland or Scheldedelta.

All very interesting. Scyldings - shieldings. ? or men of the Scheldt or how about this one ROWERS - SCALDERS - SCULLERS (could even go to the Jolly Roger, a skull and crossbones, which could actually be the poles crossed.)

One of my relatives was an Australian SCULLING champion, he's in the Guinness Book of Records, this is a form of rowing and now I just got what it means - it's scalding. yep, that's your rowers - of the boats with the long punts. A vessel propelled by a punting pole.

The swim stroke called Sculling is on your back while you use your arms to propel you forward - I can clearly see this meaning now.

Sculling - scalding

The Scyldings may have been ROWERS. Which fits if they were some kind of Finn or boatman. The shallows of the Scheldt may have been filled with rowers for all we know. Scalders.

The Finns were stalwart rowers.

[The Puzzler]

I believe scurry and skelter as in helter skelter(scurry away fast) would come from this root also.

The other thing is I can see your skull as a shield, for your brain. A hard barrier.

skull

early 13c., probably from O.N. skalli "bald head, skull," a general Scandinavian word (cf. Swedish skulle, Norw. skult), probably related to O.E. scealu "husk" (see shell). But early prominence in southwestern texts suggests rather origin from a Dutch or Low Ger. cognate (e.g. Du. schol "turf, piece of ice," but the sense of "head bone framework" is wanting). Derivation from O.Fr. escuelle seems unlikely on grounds of sound and sense. O.E. words for skull include heafod-bolla.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=skull

Dutch (turf, piece of ice) - schol - searching for 'head bone framework' - that just what I said - a head barrier, like a shield.

What about a scally-wag, my Pop always used to call me one of those...because WAG is in the OLB, when the wag from Staveren.. a scurrying wag

Scull Shoals, Georgia USA...lol

Now, SHELL:

shell (n.)

O.E. sciell, scill, Anglian scell "seashell, eggshell," related to O.E. scealu "shell, husk," from P.Gmc. *skaljo "divide, separate" (cf. W.Fris. skyl "peel, rind," M.L.G. schelle "pod, rind, egg shell," Goth. skalja "tile"), with the notion of "covering that splits off," from PIE base *(s)kel- "to cut, cleave" (cf. O.C.S. skolika "shell," Rus. skala "bark").

SKALJO is very like SHOAL etymology of sandbar, divider, like I was saying.

Then to West Frisian it is Peel - that is really weird because that is PEL.

Then check in Old Norse what skulli is: O.N. skalli "bald head, skull

In French a bald head is a PELLE.

See, I followed Pel around everywhere before and how odd that we come back to it again with Scull, with a West Frisian element in it now.

Shoal is shell (divide, seperate P.Gmc) to W.Fr is Peel, the word SHOAL is the same as PEL. The flat. Like PLane or PLain (of water)

I can see a huge circle of words there.

I'll be back.

Edited May 12, 2011 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

This is n't where I was going but more observations:

How about Syrtis, apparently named after the shoals there, Greek being soor-tis - Syrtis of Libya.

Again, the Libyan coast is a good spot for Atlantis and now I'd think it could have been a NESOS, nose, not island as such but a kind of peninsula, made of sand banks basically, that may have been circular in shape with a possible dome in the centre - Texel has this structure and with X in the middle, maybe X just does 'mark the spot'.

Tyre is an odd mixture of these 2 words, we have Sur and Tyre.

I know Sur is rock and Tor is also rocky outcrop.

The word Tyre from Sur can only be tor imo.

What about Syrtis, syr meaning shoal.

tyr might mean shoals too, or rocky outcrop...

Could a shoal actually be also a shell outcrop?

I believe it is...like middens.

Shell middens - shoal middens.

Where shells made a barrier, like rocks, that area could actually be termed shoal. I think the millions of shells they SKALLIed, husked (peeled) of the molluscs that made the red dye heaped up quite a lot around the shores of Phoenicia.

Syria. Tyre. All named for the shoals possibly, like Syrtis.

Assur - has sur in it - rock or shoal

as - sur could be 2 words to create the name of Assur - who may have been Tyr, the Norse God. Maybe fire-rock or such - burnstone - amber.

[The Puzzler]

Also now looks like pyr to me, pyramid, pyr - fire - the pyre.

This word tyr, pyr, syr tur, pur (pure, top, unmixed?), sur and all other variations are (imo) relative to a pile, either the top of or the structure, a general pile, a shell or rock barrier, a wall or pyramid, a fire barrier, shield, all barriers, sand, sandbank.

This is all shoal.

Walls of rocks, (instead of midden context) were used as barriers.

Maybe Tiryns can also be in this group.

And scull, which comes from shell - shoal - same again.

That Dido ends her life on a PYR isn't hard to then see that the TYRians in SYRtis were cremating and fire-worshippers, or more, fire mountain worshippers. A fire mountain can then be a volcano.

That's up.

[Alewyn]

I advise you to just ignore the language posts if they're not your cup of tea, like I ignore most of the geology stuff, because I just don't know enough about it to discuss.

Otharus,

Sorry for my late response but these days I just do not have the time to participate here as much as I would like to.

I do believe that the investigations into the language aspect of the OLB is very important to determine its authenticity, i.e connections to the Rustringer or old West Frisian dialects, etc. What I do find irritating is that we seem to wander off in totally unrelated directions by, what Abe calls, "lego-linguistics" or word play. It is almost like giving someone a recipe for baking a cake. You tell them to add a teaspoon of salt and then end up discussing salt mining. Whilst the mining of salt could be very interesting, it will not influence the cake at all. (btw, this remark was not directed at you)

I find your research into the 19th century investigation of the existance of the OLB very interesting. What is the earliest confirmed date that people knew about the existance of the book? Was it in the 1940's or 1930's?

Jensma's view that this was another old book (now lost), is so lame, and in fact, pathetic that it should be rejected by anyone with a bit of sense. Yet, because he is a professor people actually believe him. Imagine that. They had an old book which they threw away and then created a totally "new" old book.

Abe wants "hard" evidence. What can be harder than facts in the OLB that was not known in the 19th century - such as the description of the 4.2ka BP event? That description was only discovered in the 20th century. Add to that my list of 20 events that occured in 4200 BC (Post # 4653). Cormac remarked that there is no reason to believe that they all happened simultaneously. Now imagine that each land had its own indepenent event: Overcast skies, no wind, earthquakes, floods, drought, famine, meteorite activities, civilization collapse, etc. So while all this happened in one country, the rest just carried on normally untill their seperate turns came? How logical is that?

Btw. Abe, I believe somebody found an old tombstone in the Netherlands with the inscription : "Tread softly for here lies Adela, 590 BC - 530 BC" (joke)

[cormac mac airt]

Cormac remarked that there is no reason to believe that they all happened simultaneously.

No, that's NOT what I said either. I've posted about several events that were happening in and around that general point in time. What I have said REPEATEDLY is that there is no evidence that can be pinned to the 2193/2194 BC date SPECIFICALLY like you have claimed several times. There STILL remains no evidence that corroborates that specific date, whether from the OLB or your own personal claims/misinterpretations of fact, which Swede and I both mentioned somewhere back around Page 9 or so, IIRC.

cormac

Edited May 12, 2011 by cormac mac airt

[The Puzzler]

lol This one is just for you Alewyn.

Or should I say Sir.

[Knul]

For those who are interested in the word foddik = lamp, there is breaking news on my website: www.rodinbook.nl.

http://webc.rodinbook.nl/auth/htmledit/htmledit.nl.php?pwd=/&file=foddik.html

[The Puzzler]

Today very happy to enter this BBS, I am a novice, into this BBS is fate, hope everybody very much care, have what problem everybody together discuss from it. Hehe... Thank you.

microsoft office 2010

office 2007

Hi, what is BBS?

[Abramelin]

Hi, what is BBS?

It's spam and BBS is Bulletin Board Site.

.

Edited May 12, 2011 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

For those who are interested in the word foddik = lamp, there is breaking news on my website: www.rodinbook.nl.

http://webc.rodinbook.nl/auth/htmledit/htmledit.nl.php?pwd=/&file=foddik.html

Hi Menno, I think you posted the wrong link... it's the page where you, as administrator of that webpage must login. We can't.

Maybe you mean this one?

http://rodinbook.nl/foddik.html

.

Edited May 12, 2011 by Abramelin