Abramelin Posted April 1, 2012 #10901 Share Posted April 1, 2012 (edited) However, I found where he describes how the Frisians may have reached Mexico (silver mines) and Chile (settled a colony there),but I can't understand all of it: Mind you, this is supposed to have happened several centuries before Columbus. And that I got from the South American source I have posted about (a book that used Hamconius as one of its sources). From what I remember this should have happened somewhere around the 10th or 11th century. Not much help for the OLB, but in itself - if true - quite stunning. EDIT: It may have been the attraction of trade, Christian conviction, or the simple quest, but according to Adam of Bremen, writing about 1070 AD, regular troops of Netherlanders set off from the Zwin and sailed first to Scotland before touching at Iceland, Greenland and ultimately America. [xxxiii] These seafaring visits include, in their retelling, a fair amount of fantastic happenings (eg, giants, the discovery of gold, fortified cities and the like) which might be interpreted as later additions or a medieval copywriter’s embellishments. Since little archaeological record exists to substantiate these claims, they remain a tantalizing hint of direct expeditions to the New World before Columbus from the Low Countries.[xxxiv] - [xxxiii] For Adam of Bremen in modern translation please see Francis J. Tschan, (trans. & ed.), History of the archbishops of Hamburg-Bremen, (New York: Columbia University Press, 2002). Adam of Bremen calls these Netherlanders “Frisians” since at that time Robert of Frisia was Count of Flanders (1071-1093). For the only detailed discussion of Netherlanders sailing for America I am aware of in a modern tongue please see Charles Van den Bergh, “Nederlands Aanspraak op de Ontdekking van Amerika voor Columbus”, in Bijdragen voor Vaderlandsche Geschiednis en Oudheidkunde Verzameld en Uitgegeven door Is. An. Nijhoff, VII (1850), pp.23-33. [xxxiv] See Martinus Hamconius, writing before 1620, who claims that Netherlanders reached the mines of Mexico and settled Chile in Charles Van den Bergh, “Nederlands Aanspraak", op.cit., pp.30-33. http://flemishamerican.blogspot.com/2009/06/first-flemings-in-america-part-one.html EL DESCUBRIMIENTO DE CHILE POR LOS FRISIOS THE DISCOVERY OF CHILE by the Frisians http://www.aforteanosla.com.ar/afla/articulos%20arqueo/frisios%20en%20chile.htm http://translate.google.nl/translate?hl=nl&sl=es&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aforteanosla.com.ar%2Fafla%2Farticulos%2520arqueo%2Ffrisios%2520en%2520chile.htm === El descubrimiento de Chile por los frisios en el siglo XI - José Toribio Medina/1910 http://books.google.nl/books/about/El_descubrimiento_de_Chile_por_los_frisi.html?id=V1D4pwAACAAJ&redir_esc=y . . Edited April 1, 2012 by Abramelin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otharus Posted April 1, 2012 #10902 Share Posted April 1, 2012 (edited) Great posts, folks! Nice to see this thread evolve again. Not too much on-topic, but still fun ~ ~ ~ ~ the Westfrisian roots of Angelina Jolie. Angelina Jolie, born 1975 Los Angeles (California) daughter of Marcheline Bertrand, born 1950 Riverdale (Illinois) daughter of Lois June Gouwens, born 1928 Cook County (Illinois) daughter of Royal Gerrit Gouwens, born 1906 (Illinois) son of Annie Koedijker, born 1872 Sint Maarten (North-Holland) daughter of Grietje Delver, born c.1845 Zijpe (North-Holland) daughter of Trijntje Krabman, born c.1816 Sint Maarten (North-Holland) daughter of Dirk Krabman, born c.1785 Schagen (Westfriesland) son of Floris Krabman & Maartje Bras, Barsingerhorn (Westfriesland) http://fryskednis.blogspot.com/2012/03/mothers.html Edited April 1, 2012 by Otharus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted April 1, 2012 #10903 Share Posted April 1, 2012 I would like to see her in the role of "Adela": Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otharus Posted April 1, 2012 #10904 Share Posted April 1, 2012 (edited) I would like to see her in the role of "Adela": That's already something we agree full 100%... ... I will do auditions for to be the 'Foddik'. Edited April 1, 2012 by Otharus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otharus Posted April 1, 2012 #10905 Share Posted April 1, 2012 (edited) ANGEL.INA JOL Yule, Juul, Yol Her grandmother's 'oma', 'Antje van Koedyk' was born in 1872 in Sint Maarten (North-Holland), between Enkhuizen and Den Helder. The year that the OLB was purst fiblished with Dutch translation. Her parents and family will surely have heard about it and read the discussions in the papers. (As have my ancestors of that time, they all lived there.) Edited April 1, 2012 by Otharus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted April 1, 2012 #10906 Share Posted April 1, 2012 ANGEL.INA JOL Yule, Juul, Yol Her grandmother's 'oma', 'Antje van Koedyk' was born in 1872 in Sint Maarten (North-Holland), between Enkhuizen and Den Helder. Jolie... Jol. Now I know how you came up with her, lol. "Koedyk"... Kadik.... another.. uhm.. connection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted April 1, 2012 #10907 Share Posted April 1, 2012 I'm sure I've posted this before, but it won't hurt to repost it: [xxxiii] For Adam of Bremen in modern translation please see Francis J. Tschan, (trans. & ed.), History of the archbishops of Hamburg-Bremen, (New York: Columbia University Press, 2002). Adam of Bremen calls these Netherlanders “Frisians” since at that time Robert of Frisia was Count of Flanders (1071-1093). For the only detailed discussion of Netherlanders sailing for America I am aware of in a modern tongue please see Charles Van den Bergh, “Nederlands Aanspraak op de Ontdekking van Amerika voor Columbus” (The Dutch claim to the discovery of America before Columbus), in Bijdragen voor Vaderlandsche Geschiedenis en Oudheidkunde Verzameld en Uitgegeven door Is. An. Nijhoff, VII (1850), pp.23-33. [xxxiv] See Martinus Hamconius, writing before 1620, who claims that Netherlanders reached the mines of Mexico and settled Chile in Charles Van den Bergh, “Nederlands Aanspraak", op.cit., pp.30-33. http://flemishamerican.blogspot.com/2009/06/first-flemings-in-america-part-one.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otharus Posted April 1, 2012 #10908 Share Posted April 1, 2012 Leeuwarder Courant : "Frisians speak ugliest Dutch." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted April 1, 2012 #10909 Share Posted April 1, 2012 (edited) Otharus, I just now had this crazy idea (and that was after my ex came around, and told me a story you would like - she is a native American woman from the Dutch Antiles, an Arawak - about Frisian ancestors. It gets weirder all the time, I tell you). You want to make a series of YouTube videos about the whole OLB narrative, like you told us. But why don't you try to contact Paul Verhoeven, and ask him if he is interested in making a movie about the OLB. Then you tell him about the OLB, give him a link to Sandbach's or Ottema's translation and of course a link to this huge thread. The guy is meticulous, and I will bet he will read this whole thread, even if it takes him a week to complete reading it. You could ask of course, "Why don't you do it yourself, Rob?", but I have no experience in making videos. YOU have. And hoax/falsification or not, I think it could turn out into a great movie. They made movies about the Odyssey, the Ilias, Vikings, "The 13th Warrior", and so on. The text of the OLB could be just as great a script for a movie as any ancient Greek manuscript had to offer. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Verhoeven What I think I know about Verhoeven is that he loves to make movies about controversial books and ideas. Try it. Your command of English is better than mine. . Edited April 1, 2012 by Abramelin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otharus Posted April 1, 2012 #10910 Share Posted April 1, 2012 Otharus, I just now had this crazy idea (and that was after my ex came around, and told me a story you would like - she is a native American woman from the Dutch Antiles, an Arawak - about Frisian ancestors. It gets weirder all the time, I tell you). You want to make a series of YouTube videos about the whole OLB narrative, like you told us. But why don't you try to contact Paul Verhoeven, and ask him if he is interested in making a movie about the OLB. Then you tell him about the OLB, give him a link to Sandbach's or Ottema's translation and of course a link to this huge thread. The guy is meticulous, and I will bet he will read this whole thread, even if it takes him a week to complete reading it. You could ask of course, "Why don't you do it yourself, Rob?", but I have no experience in making videos. YOU have. And hoax/falsification or not, I think it could turn out into a great movie. They made movies about the Odyssey, the Ilias, Vikings, "The 13th Warrior", and so on. The text of the OLB could be just as great a script for a movie as any ancient Greek manuscript had to offer. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Verhoeven What I think I know about Verhoeven is that he loves to make movies about controversial books and ideas. Try it. Your command of English is better than mine. I agree to all. And he has a thing with heroines... https://vimeo.com/2791818 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted April 1, 2012 #10911 Share Posted April 1, 2012 Leeuwarder Courant : "Frisians speak ugliest Dutch." I think the worst Dutch dialect is spoken in the province of Drenthe. They have that 'nasal' kind of accent I do not like that much, to be honest. But who am I to complain: I once talked with a Canadian woman from my own site. She said I had a "Swedish" accent. Damn, that accent is even worse. Another woman from my site said I sounded like Leo Beenhakker, the guy who was once the football trainer of the Trinidad-Tubago soccer team. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otharus Posted April 1, 2012 #10912 Share Posted April 1, 2012 (edited) I agree to all. And he has a thing with heroines... https://vimeo.com/2791818 That was a first tribute to my hero. Here's a second. He most definately has a thing with alternative (Bible and Jesus) history. Member of the Jesus Seminar. Edited April 1, 2012 by Otharus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted April 1, 2012 #10913 Share Posted April 1, 2012 I agree to all. And he has a thing with heroines... https://vimeo.com/2791818 I watched that video... He loves assertive, aggresive, and maybe even 'dominating' women. He would love the OLB, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otharus Posted April 1, 2012 #10914 Share Posted April 1, 2012 (edited) I watched that video... He loves assertive, aggresive, and maybe even 'dominating' women. He would love the OLB, lol. Yes he does. As will the international audience. Edited April 1, 2012 by Otharus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otharus Posted April 1, 2012 #10915 Share Posted April 1, 2012 (edited) The last for tonight: "Restricted - best & greatest Dutch film" TURKS FRUIT, by Paul Verhoeven. https://vimeo.com/2779199 With a pic of me at the and. That's only fair, since I already posted photo's of my respected fellow researchers, Jensma and Knul (who follows?). Edited April 1, 2012 by Otharus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knul Posted April 2, 2012 #10916 Share Posted April 2, 2012 (edited) To my own surprise, I am the first (as far as I know) who interprets Thjanja as Diana. Checked: Ottema (1876), Sandbach (1876), Wirth (1933), Jensma (2006), de Heer (2008), Raubenheimer (2011), Knul (2012) (can't find the link to Overwijn's version) Overwijn does not mention Diana either.s. http://rodinbook.nl/overwijn.html Edited April 2, 2012 by Knul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knul Posted April 2, 2012 #10917 Share Posted April 2, 2012 1. Richthofen: "flet" = huis; 'flet' in German dialect ('Platduits') is the place where the beds are. 2. The manuscript has "LOGHA", not "LONGHA". Logha = flame ('tongue' of fire) Logha is Oldfrisian loga = flame s. Koebler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted April 3, 2012 #10918 Share Posted April 3, 2012 (edited) Overwijn does not mention Diana either.s. http://rodinbook.nl/overwijn.html The link is dead, but here's a scan of the page of Overwijn's book: According to Overwijn, the name Thjanja comes from "Tanna" or "Tanneke" (from a Dutch kid's rhyme about a witch) and means 'to flare up', and has no connection with 'to serve'. He also says that the last -n- in Tanna is a nasal -ñ- in Old Frisian, so Tanna would become Tanja (or Tania in English). But it must be noted that Overwijn used a lot of Celtic to explain words in the OLB (this is what he also said: Celtic: tana = flame / tanañ = to light a fire, to set alight ) +++ EDIT: Also see my posts 10893 & 10894 here: http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=184645&st=10890 EDIT: Menno, this is the corrcet link to your page with Overwijn's text: http://rodinbook.nl/olbtekstoverwijn.html . Edited April 3, 2012 by Abramelin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knul Posted April 3, 2012 #10919 Share Posted April 3, 2012 The link is dead, but here's a scan of the page of Overwijn's book: According to Overwijn, the name Thjanja comes from "Tanna" or "Tanneke" (from a Dutch kid's rhyme about a witch) and means 'to flare up', and has no connection with 'to serve'. He also says that the last -n- in Tanna is a nasal -ñ- in Old Frisian, so Tanna would become Tanja (or Tania in English). But it must be noted that Overwijn used a lot of Celtic to explain words in the OLB (this is what he also said: Celtic: tana = flame / tanañ = to light a fire, to set alight ) +++ EDIT: Also see my posts 10893 & 10894 here: http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=184645&st=10890 EDIT: Menno, this is the corrcet link to your page with Overwijn's text: http://rodinbook.nl/olbtekstoverwijn.html . Yes, I changed it a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted April 3, 2012 #10920 Share Posted April 3, 2012 (edited) Menno, on your page about Overwijn's book, http://rodinbook.nl/olbtekstoverwijn.html , I see this line: Noordwest-Europa voor de Kimbrische Vloed in ca. 6250 v.Chr. (North West Europe before the Cimbrian Flood of around 6250 BC) Maybe you'd like to add the picture that comes with that line: As you will remember I have posted a couple of scans from Overwijn's book, like that one of the citadel on Texland and a couple of pages on the Menapian language. I am not sure if you own the book yourself, but in case you don't I can post other scans of images from his book you might want to use. Edited April 3, 2012 by Abramelin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otharus Posted April 3, 2012 #10921 Share Posted April 3, 2012 (edited) I hope you will not laugh out too loud and that you will pardon my getting a bit philosophical, but this is how I see this epitaph: “Do not pass in haste, for here lies Adela” If the OLB is real, we owe our glimpse into this forgotten history and people to this lady. The Oera Linda Book is her legacy. These words then speak directly to us; more than 2500 years later! One can almost interpret them to mean: “Do not deny her life but take time to reflect on what Adela ovira Linda gave to the world.” Just imagine anyone of us leaving a legacy that will still be of significance 2500 years hence, say, in the year 4500 AD! Almost two months after Alewyn posted this, I'd like to add that I still like it. Here in the Netherlands, april is the month of philosophy. So let's get philosophical about the OLB. Fact, fiction, or a bit of both ~ what can we learn from it? What would be relevant to reflect on in our present time? Edited April 3, 2012 by Otharus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted April 3, 2012 #10922 Share Posted April 3, 2012 Almost two months after Alewyn posted this, I'd like to add that I still like it. Here in the Netherlands, april is the month of philosphy. So let's get philosophical about the OLB. Fact, fiction, or a bit of both ~ what can we learn from it? What would be relevant to reflect on in our present time? And the month starts with April Fool's Day. Sorry, I just had to, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted April 3, 2012 #10923 Share Posted April 3, 2012 (edited) Another map from Overwijn's book about the OLB people might be interested in: (Click on the thumbnail, and when the larger pic opens, click again on it; it's quite huge) Another one: . Edited April 3, 2012 by Abramelin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otharus Posted April 3, 2012 #10924 Share Posted April 3, 2012 Apologies to those who can't read Dutch, but this (untranslatable) poem by François Haverschmidt (1852, written under pseudonym 'Piet Paaltjens') just begs to be added to this thread. Note the highlighted (by me) fragment. (Source: http://cf.hum.uva.nl/dsp/ljc/paaltjens/fries.html ) De Friesche poëet I De Harlinger stoomboot schommelt Over de Zuiderzee Van Stavoren naar Enkhuizen. Een dichter schommelt mee. Kwijnend rust op de verschansing De zangrige elleboog. Glazig staart naar Friesland Het bleekblauw poëtenoog. Soms is 't of een klaaglied De schampre lippen ontstijgt. De hofmeester denkt, dat mijnheer dan Een aanval van zeeziekte krijgt. Och, de hofmeester is niet onmooglijk Een mensch met een edel hart, Maar, al meent hij het goed, hij heeft geen Verstand van dichterssmart. En ik denk, dat is maar goed ook; Want kende de man die pijn, Hoe zou hij nog voor de betrekking Van hofmeester bruikbaar zijn? - "Vaarwel!" ruischt het van de verschansing Naar het langzaam wegblauwend strand, "Vaarwel! mijn diepverbasterd, En toch mijn vaderland! Wat al waatren rolden grimmig Uw vernederde terpen voorbij, Sinds in eigen taal uw kindren Konden zeggen "wij, Friezen, zijn vrij!" Naar ploeg en koestal vluchtte Uw taal, eenmaal Holland's schrik, Om uw steden te zien verzinken In allerlei vreemde kwik. Uw adel ligt op sterven; Dat prachtig, koppig ras, Dat, om voor een koning te buigen, Te stijf eens van knieën was. En begraven zijn ze op een paar na Uw dochters van edel bloed Met het oorijzer om den schedel En de schaatsen onder den voet. Friesche jonkers solliciteeren Om een postjen als ambtenaar En nemen zich tot vrouwen Friezinnen - met los haar!" Een ontzaglijk-hoonende tandknars Bezegelt het slotakkoord, En "help!" gilt de man aan het stuurrad, "Een passagier overboord!" Te laat! de poëet is verdwenen In de diepte van 't dansend meer. Slechts zijn pet vindt men acht dagen later Op de kust van Wieringen weer. II In overoude tijden, Toen men nog geen stoomboten had, Lag er halfweg tusschen Enkhuizen En Staavren een bloeiende stad. Haar koene schippers brachten Haar schatten van heinde en veer, En onder haar kooplui telde Zij meer dan één millionair. Maar - wat ziet men gebeuren - 't Geld maakte haar kooplieden grootsch. Toen streken de elementen Over haar het vonnis des doods. Op zeekren morgen kon men In de Leeuwarder krant zien staan, Hoe het trotsche Oud-Staavren eensklaps In de Zuiderzee was vergaan. Sinds verliepen er honderden jaren; En men hield het er algemeen voor, De bodem der zee droeg langer Van Oud-Staavren geen enkel spoor. Slechts vond men er nog op Schokland, Die zwoeren bij kris en bij kras, Dat er onder in de diepte Nog heel wat over was. Een oude visscher beweerde: Hij was dikwijls door klokgelui, Dat uit de zee opkwam, gewaarschuwd voor een naderende onweersbui. De torenklok van Oud-Staavren Die moest dat hebben gedaan. Had zijn vader niet eens het uurwerk In dien toren halfacht horen slaan? III De dichter is verdwenen In de diepte van 't dansende meer. Hij zinkt als een steen. En Eindlijk Komt hij in Oud-Stavoren neer. Want, ja, wat die goede Schokkers In hun eenvoud steeds hebben beweerd, Dat is waar: de verdronken koopstad Bestaat nog ongedeerd. Haar muren zijn nog stevig; Haar torens zijn nog hoog; Slechts is er alles drijfnat, Wat er eenmaal als kurk was zoo droog. En op haar pleinen en straten, Van menschengedruis een vol, Daar zwemmen nu stilzwijgend Tarbot en schelvisch en schol. In haar achterbuurten leeft het van krab en slak en garnaal, En kabeljauw vult met bruinvisch Op het raadhuis de groote zaal. - Tot allerlei bochten zich wringend En van benauwdheid loodblauw Zinkt de dichter-drenkeling neder Op de stoep van een deftig gebouw. Stuiptrekkend beweegt hij den klopper. O wonder! de poortdeur wijkt, En de zanger drijft den gang in. Maar is daar niet, of hij bezwijkt. IV Hoelang de gezonken poëet wel Bewustloos gelegen heeft, Dat zou ik niet kunnen zeggen. Genoeg, - de man herleeft. Hij heft de gevoelvolle blikken, Maar twijfelt schier aan hun trouw; Vlak toch tegenover zich ziet hij Een wonderschone vrouw. Haar gitzwarte lokken golven Langs een voorhoofd van elpenbeen Over leliewitte schouders En een sneeuwblanken boezem heen. Haar wenkbrauwen buigen zich prachtig Boven oogen van lazuur, Beschaduwd door zware wimpers En tintlend van prettig vuur. Een neusje, Venus waardig, Scheidt haar wangen, wier zachte gloed De rozen beschaamt, maar voor 't blosje Van haar lipjes nog tanen moet. Ivoren tandjes glinstren, Zoo vaak haar mondje lacht; En de mollige kin bergt een kuiltje, Dat stil naar een kusje smacht. V De dichter begrijpt er niets van; Maar eindelijk waagt hij het toch De vreemde schoone te vragen: "Waar ben ik?" en "leef ik nog?" En als kristal klinkt haar antwoord: "Mijn lieve landgenoot, Gij zit hier in Oud-Staavren, En ge zijt volstrekt niet dood. Gelukkig voor u bewoon ik Hier een waterdicht lokaal, Waar ik versche lucht kan krijgen Door een onderzeesch kanaal. Nog even bijtijds ontdekte ik, Hoe gij spartelde op de stoep .... Doch al praatjes genoeg! Gij hebt honger, Eet dus eerst een dit bordje soep. Dat zal u goeddoen, mijn jongen! Ik zelf heb ze klaargemaakt. En drink er dit glas Pommies bij; Die weet ik dat lekker smaakt. Ga u daarna eens goed verdrogen, En - kom dan in mijn arm; Dan, voor den drommel, kus ik U nog eens ouderwets warm!" VI "Vergeef mij," huivert de dichter, "'t Is onbescheiden misschien, Maar mag ik ook vragen, wat dame de eer heb vóór mij te zien?" - En de schoone glimlacht: "Wel zeker! - maar eet ondertusschen voort, - Ik ben dat weeuwtje van Staavren, Daar ge mooglijk wel van hebt gehoord; Die een lading Dantziger tarwe Aan stuurboord in zee werpen liet .... Maar, man, waar wordt ge zoo bleek van? Dat hindert u, hoop ik, toch niet?" "Dat geval met die Dantziger tarwe, Mevrouw, is te lang geleên, Om mij nu nog te kunnen hindren, Al was het dan ook - gemeen. Maar wat mij van lust om te eten En om u te kussen berooft, Is, dat gij, beboren Friezinne, Geen oorijzer draagt om uw hoofd. Maar wat mij zóó vreeslijk ergert, Dat de wang er mij van verbleekt Is, dat ook het weeuwtje van Staavren Gebroken-Hollandsch spreekt. Verbasterd is mijn Friesland Tot op de bodem der zee. Ik heb genoeg van het leven. Drink zelf uw flesch Pommies." Zoo galmt de rampzalige dichter En vliegt de voordeur uit. Nog een korte strijd, - en de haaien Verdelen hun zangrigen buit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otharus Posted April 3, 2012 #10925 Share Posted April 3, 2012 Found two treasures: Bediedinge van de tot noch toe onbekende afgodinne Nehalennia (Service of the untill-now-unknown goddess/ idol Nehalennia) by Marcus Zuerius Boxhorn (1647) http://books.google.nl/books?id=-F5bAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&hl=nl#v=onepage&q&f=false and Taalkundige aanmerkingen op eenige Oud-Friesche spreekwoorden (Linguistic notes to some Old-frisian proverbs) by Jacob Henrik Hoeufft (1812) http://books.google.nl/books?id=mQAGAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&hl=nl#v=onepage&q&f=false Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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