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Riaan

[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood

11,638 posts in this topic

In short, the “Middel Sea” was the “Mediterranean” which should now be abundantly clear to everybody.

Abundantly clear indeed.

Thanks Alewyn.

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Finding ever more links between the our 'Frisians' or 'Fryans' and the 'Danes' or 'Heruli'(?).

It will take me some time to digest all of it, but can't wait to share some of the goodies with the forum.

Here's one, again from: "The Heruls" by Troels Brandt (page 109):

Finally the basical myths of the religion are supposed to be developed in a much older pagan environment, where no one would be expected to read antique historians and combine them in that way. The picture-stones at Gotland indicate that antique legends were known early, but not necessarily from books. Dudo confirmed only 40 years after Denmark was officially baptized, that the Danes boasted of Greek ancestors, so already at that time the Dacian tradition was well established without any connection with Procopius and his Heruls. Thus Snorri did not invent the southeastern connection. On the contrary his explanations and different versions show doubt in his mind about the Troy-legend, but not about men from the region of Tanais becoming kings of Scandinavia.

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The Mediterranean is a MEDIEVAL Latin word, meaning 'sea in the middle of land' or something.

The Germans translated this MEDIEVAL Latin word into "Mittelmeer".

And after them the Jews translated it into Ivrit (sorry, my ivrit is a bit rusty).

So, the Mediterranean was called that way from the Middle Ages, not before.

The writers of the OLB just used a translation of Mediterranean/Mittelmeer. And think about this: the mansucript was copied for the last time (?) in Leeuwarden, 1256 AD.

Now you go look where exactly this Leeuwarden was located, heh...

I agree the manuscript was last copied 1256AD since the whole manuscript is in this writing.

imo this allows for words from that time to be included, as interpreted into 'modernity' by the writer, Hiddo.

Whatever he copied imo he could have used newer words. Old English was around from the 5th century AD.

The word is not Mediterranean used in the OLB so it doesn't really matter when it was used, the word is Middel, Middle as in Middle Sea not the Middle of the Earth Sea.

In Modern Hebrew, it has been called HaYyam HaTtikhon (הַיָּם הַתִּיכוֹן), "the middle sea", a literal adaptation of the German equivalent Mittelmeer.[citation needed]

Note that needs a citation.

The Latin word is actually mediterraneus. The Hebrews call the Mediterranean the Middle Sea, not the Middle of the earth Sea.

What do Dutch and Germans call the Mediterranean Sea? Do you call it the Middle Sea in todays language? Mittlemeer? Or do you refer to it as the Mediterranean Sea?

You just call it Mittelmeer don't you? Middle Sea not Middle of the Earth Sea.

If Mittelmeer was translated from Mediterranean why don't you call it the Mittel(earth in German - gard?)meer?

In fact - Mittel Gard (Midgard) sounds much like the Garden of Eden. Middle earth, middle garden.

Mid in it's form as middle is in Old Norse and can be found in relic names like Midgard as opposed to Asgard.

I guess the Old Norse were translating from Latin too hey?

I don't think your argument on the Mediterranean is concrete.

Edited by The Puzzler

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Yes, I already posted about mote and baily type forts, and they have found many, but none of them is like the citadels described in the OLB, and they didn't even use baked bricks.

The large houses were most probably 'longhouses' (check the 'structuralarcheology' site: it explains them in detail. The oldest found in the Netherlands is 7000 years old...):

http://structuralarchaeology.blogspot.com/2009/08/33-elsloo-32-neolithic-longhouse-made.html

Theoretical+Model%3B+Simple+roof+forms+-parts.jpg

.

That is some 3000 years older than the OLB. Once again, the OLB tale does not seem to be so far-fetched.

Thanks Abe.

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I think it's quite reasonable to suggest the material was recycled and/or re-used.

I can imagine that with radar scan or some other form of detection, it is possible to see huge ring-like structures in what is now the Wadden Sea in the north of The Netherlands.

But nothing like that was ever found.

.

A correction: The OLB describe rectangular structures (as per your longhouses) but circular town centre layouts. These town centre layouts (In the form of the Yule) would have been defined by gardens / roads / fences and therefore very little archaeological evidence would have remained.

As I said in my book, Europe has been continuously inhabited for millennia and most of these old towns merely evolved into the towns we see today. Just look at the satellite images of Leeuwarden (Appolinia's burgh) and Middelburg, both of which match Appolinia's description.

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I think you all will find the next website of interest:

Homer's North Atlantic Odyssey?

http://codexceltica.blogspot.com/2009/10/homers-north-atlantic-odyssey.html

That particular page deals with theories about Homer/Iliad/Odyssey in the north, and about Atlantis in the north.

It's sort of a summary of all those theories, with the necessary discussion/critique, of course.

Of interest indeed, thanks!

Here's a selection of some (imo) relevant fragments.

(Also see my next post.)

The opposing interpretation would be that the entire genesis of the original, ur-Odyssey was northern-European, deriving from proto-Celtic/-Germanic or other early Nordic seafaring peoples. This is how the Iliad ends up being given an entirely northern interpretation, for it makes more sense in terms of fitting the idea of a Nordic origin for the epic than does the Odyssey, whose voyage begins with known places in the Med. One literary-transmission theory is that early Greek sailors might have come for long-distance trade in tin etc, and also took this wonderful epic tale back with them, transforming it into a national epic when it was written up in verse. If the northern peoples preferred not to write out their compositions, relying on prodigious feats of memory (as Caesar said of the Keltic bards), over time the original northern version could have been lost in wars and migrations. Another north-to-south literary-transmission theory is that the northern tribes were the ‘Sea Peoples’ mentioned in Egyptian records who swept south to attack Greece and Egypt around 1200 BC, obliterating the earlier Greeks, who assimilated the northerners’ campfire tales and made them their own when they flourished again as a nation after the Greek Dark Ages. Each theory has its proponents.

The second variant of this north-to-south literary-transmission theory can be found in an Italian book suggesting a largely Finnish setting, which got the usual dismissive reception (“Finnish scholars were quick to label it an interesting joke.”) It’s another “northern Troy” book, here arguing for a Scandinavian-Baltic rather than a Celtic-British setting, Troy being identified with Toy or Toija in Finland. The first of author Felice Vinci’s books on the topic, his 1993 Homericus Nuncius, was evidently not translated, but his 2nd, his 1998 Omero nel Baltico was published in English in the US in 2005 as The Baltic Origins Of Homer's Epic Tales: The Iliad, the Odyssey, And The Migration Of Myth.

Vinci is not a Finn, but an Italian nuclear engineer, from Rome, and is not just - as is so often the case - nationalistically promoting his own homeland as the cradle of European civilisation. According to Vinci, Odysseus himself was Dutch. His argument is that a mighty northern Bronze Age civilization invaded the Mediterranean, taking with them their epic tale of a great war in the Baltic, and its sequel, concerning the seafaring wanderings of one survivor between the Gulf of Finland and the Baltic. The place names were adapted into Greek, but the geographical detail simply did not fit the Med.

This is a theory that was foreshadowed in several books by a German pastor, amateur archaeologist and classical scholar, Jurgen Spanuth (1907-98), though his thesis was that these events survive in distorted version not just in Homer but in Plato’s Atlantis parable. Spanuth compared Homer’s and Plato’s descriptions on a point-for-point basis, and suggested both derived from a common origin. This was the rise and fall of a mighty Bronze Age seafaring nation based in and around Jutland, which fell when an ‘Atlantean’ North Sea flood drove them southward into the Med, where the Egyptians defeated these invading ‘Sea Peoples’ in the Nile delta. He refined his thesis in several books also published in English, from Das Entratselte Atlantis, 1953 [Atlantis-The Mystery Unravelled, 1956] through Die Atlanter [Atlantis Of The North, 1976/79], now all out of print. He argued when the Egyptians defeated the Sea Peoples, they recorded their tale of how their empire collapsed in a flood, and Plato’s source his uncle Solon the Lawgiver, picked it up, just as Solon said, on a visit to Egypt, and Solon and then Plato each wrote up a version.

(...)

This controversial north-to-south cultural-transmission theory is centuries older than German nationalism. There had been an attempt centuries before to place the inspiration for Plato’s Atlantis in the Baltic, which was the grandaddy of all these books. In the 17th C, the Swedish allround Renaissance scholar (physician, astronomer, archaeo-historian etc) Olaus or Olof Rudbeck caused consternation with his northern-thesis 4-part, 2,500 page work Atland eller Manheim, translated from Swedish into Latin for scholarly use as Atlantica. This cited linguistic parallels between Swedish, Hebrew etc to claim the oldest district of his home town Uppsala was center of 'lost Atlantis' and thus - by the extravagant logic of cultural diffusion - Sweden was the cradle of western civilisation going back to Adam and Eve.

(...) Like nearly all successful writers in this field, Rudbeck did not simply invent from whole cloth, but drew on still-unresolved mysteries from the past.

Edited by Otharus

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Troy is mentioned twice in the OLB, but it does NOT suggest where it might have been. It is therefore possible, that Troy was in eastern England, as Iman Wilkens claims. (I have not read his book.)

Source: East-wall Fryasburch, 1187 BC (OLB orig. pag.75)

[Ottema p.104]

Vmbe-r to fensane hêder fêle skåta mith brocht, boppa ella fâmne syrhêdum, alsa thêr in wralda navt skênener mâkad wrde. Hja kêmon fon Troja en stede tham tha Krêkalandar innimth hêdon.

[Ottema p.105]

Om die te verkrijgen had hij vele schatten medegebracht, bovenal vrouwen sieraden, gelijk er in de wereld niet schooner gemaakt werden. Zij waren afkomstig van Troje, eene stad, die de Krekalanders hadden ingenomen.

[sandbach p.105]

For this purpose he had brought great treasures with him, above all, jewels for women more beautiful than had ever been seen before. They were from Troy, a town that the Greeks had taken.

Source: anonymus, ca. 0 BC (OLB orig. pag. 199)

[Ottema p.238]

Tha hêinda Krêkalanda håvon vs to fara allêna to hêrath, men sunt vnhüglika tidum håvon ra thêr âk åfterkvmanda fon Lyda ånd fon Finda nitherset, fon tha lersta kêmon to tha lersta en êle hâpe fon Trôje. Trôje alsa heth êne stêde hêten, thêr et folk fon tha fêre Krêkalanda innomth ånd vrhomelt heth. Thâ tha Trôjana to tha hêinda Krêkalandum nestled wêron, tha håvon hja thêr mith tid ånd flit êne sterke stêd mith wâlla ånd burgum bvwed, Rome, that is Rum, hêten.

[Ottema p.239]

De heinde Krekalanden hebben te voren ons alleen toebehoord, maar sedert onheugelijke tijden hebben zich daar ook nakomelingen van Lyda en Finda nedergezet, van deze laatsten kwamen eindelijk een heele hoop van Troje. Troja alzoo heeft eene stad geheeten, die het volk van de verre Krekalanden (Griekenland) heeft ingenomen en verwoest. Toen de Trojanen in de heinde Krekalanden genesteld waren, toen hebben zij daar met tijd en vlijt eene sterke stad met wallen en burgten gebouwd, Rome, dat is Ruim, geheeten.

[sandbach p.239]

The Krekalanders [sic!] formerly belonged to us only, but from time immemorial descendants of Lyda and Finda have established themselves there. Of these last there came in the end a whole troop from Troy. Troy is the name of a town that the far Krekalanders (Greeks) had taken and destroyed. When the Trojans had nestled themselves among the near Krekalanders, with time and industry they built a strong town with walls and citadels named Rome, that is, Spacious.

Relevant part of Ottema's introduction, translated by Sandbach:

Although a great portion of the first part of the work — the book of Adela — belongs to the mythological period before the Trojan war, there is a striking difference between it and the Greek myths. The Myths have no dates, much less any chronology, nor any internal coherence of successive events. The untrammelled fancy develops itself in every poem separately and independently. The mythological stories contradict each other on every point. "Les Mythes ne se tiennent pas," is the only key to the Greek Mythology. Here, on the contrary, we meet with a regular succession of dates starting from a fixed period — the destruction of Atland, 2193 before Christ. The accounts are natural and simple, often naive, never contradict each other, and are always consistent with each other in time and place. As, for instance, the arrival and sojourn of Ulysses with the Burgtmaagd Kalip at Walhallagara (Walcheren), which is the most mythical portion of all, is here said to be 1005 years after the disappearance of Atland, which coincides with 1188 years before Christ, and thus agrees very nearly with the time at which the Greeks say the Trojan war took place. The story of Ulysses was not brought here for the first time by the Romans. Tacitus found it already in Lower Germany (see " Germania," cap. 3), and says that at Asciburgium there was an altar on which the names of Ulysses and his father Laertes were inscribed.

Edited by Otharus

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Finding ever more links between the our 'Frisians' or 'Fryans' and the 'Danes' or 'Heruli'(?).

It will take me some time to digest all of it, but can't wait to share some of the goodies with the forum.

Here's one, again from: "The Heruls" by Troels Brandt (page 109):

Finally the basical myths of the religion are supposed to be developed in a much older pagan environment, where no one would be expected to read antique historians and combine them in that way. The picture-stones at Gotland indicate that antique legends were known early, but not necessarily from books. Dudo confirmed only 40 years after Denmark was officially baptized, that the Danes boasted of Greek ancestors, so already at that time the Dacian tradition was well established without any connection with Procopius and his Heruls. Thus Snorri did not invent the southeastern connection. On the contrary his explanations and different versions show doubt in his mind about the Troy-legend, but not about men from the region of Tanais becoming kings of Scandinavia.

Gotland has caught my eye for a long time now, they have labyrinths on Gotland. Their symbol is the Ram. I had a debate once with Abe on Faro being a possible representation of the island of Pharos in myth where old Proteus (shapeshifter) lives. Recall that Proteus is a seal herder, he always smells of seal smell, seals are very predominant on Gotland, don't know of any hanging out around Alexandria though...

There are also thousands of mysterious grooves on the island that are suspected of having been used for archaeoastronomy.

THIS is the place to see the North Sky and map it and record it as well as know what stars are sitting at the Pole star imo.

Cattle, sheep and pigs were on the island since Neolithic times.

The area of Ajvide offers some archaeology of Gotland:

Ajvide (Ajvideboplatsen) is located on the western coast of Gotland, Sweden, in the parish of Eksta, diocese of Visby. It covers an area of 200,000 square metres and was occupied from the Late Mesolithic through to the mid Bronze Age. The majority of the activity on the site took place during the Middle Neolithic period (3100 - 2700 BC). This phase of activity belongs to the Pitted Ware culture.[1] Around 2900 BC, the site suffered from a marine transgression.[1]

Since 1983, Stockholm University and later the Gotland University College, have conducted archaeological investigations at the property.[2] (1942-2007), together with Göran Burenhult, both professors of archeology at Gotland University College, conducted much of the recent research on Neolithic Gotland, including Ajvide.[3]

The principal feature of the site is a burial ground containing some 80 graves. In some cases the graves are occupied by more than one individual, whilst others may be cenotaphs. Most of these graves date to later than the main phase of Pitted Ware activity. Adjacent to the cemetery, to the East, is an area of very dark soil that contains a mixture of artifacts, pottery and bone fragments. In some texts on this site, this area is referred to as the black area, and is believed to have a possible ceremonial function.[1] However, Österholm[4] has suggested that it may in fact represent the processing of seal train oil.

A significant faunal assemblage has been recovered from the site. This suggests that in the late Mesolithic the economy was based upon the hunting of grey, ringed and harp seals, porpoise and fishing. Cattle, sheep, and pigs were introduced at the start of the Neolithic. However, there was a resurgence in seal hunting and fishing by the Middle Neolithic. Cattle and sheep returned during the late Neolithic and Bronze Age.[1] It has been argued[5] that the pigs which remain on Gotland during the Pitted Ware phase are in fact wild or feral animals, implying a general return to hunting and gathering during this period and not just a reversion to marine resources. Examination of the helical fracture pattern and dynamic impact scars of the bones from Ajvide[1] suggests that bone marrow extraction took place at this site.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajvide

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Gotland has caught my eye for a long time now, they have labyrinths on Gotland. Their symbol is the Ram. I had a debate once with Abe on Faro being a possible representation of the island of Pharos in myth where old Proteus (shapeshifter) lives. Recall that Proteus is a seal herder, he always smells of seal smell, seals are very predominant on Gotland, don't know of any hanging out around Alexandria though...

There are also thousands of mysterious grooves on the island that are suspected of having been used for archaeoastronomy.

THIS is the place to see the North Sky and map it and record it as well as know what stars are sitting at the Pole star imo.

Cattle, sheep and pigs were on the island since Neolithic times.

The area of Ajvide offers some archaeology of Gotland:

Ajvide (Ajvideboplatsen) is located on the western coast of Gotland, Sweden, in the parish of Eksta, diocese of Visby. It covers an area of 200,000 square metres and was occupied from the Late Mesolithic through to the mid Bronze Age. The majority of the activity on the site took place during the Middle Neolithic period (3100 - 2700 BC). This phase of activity belongs to the Pitted Ware culture.[1] Around 2900 BC, the site suffered from a marine transgression.[1]

Since 1983, Stockholm University and later the Gotland University College, have conducted archaeological investigations at the property.[2] (1942-2007), together with Göran Burenhult, both professors of archeology at Gotland University College, conducted much of the recent research on Neolithic Gotland, including Ajvide.[3]

The principal feature of the site is a burial ground containing some 80 graves. In some cases the graves are occupied by more than one individual, whilst others may be cenotaphs. Most of these graves date to later than the main phase of Pitted Ware activity. Adjacent to the cemetery, to the East, is an area of very dark soil that contains a mixture of artifacts, pottery and bone fragments. In some texts on this site, this area is referred to as the black area, and is believed to have a possible ceremonial function.[1] However, Österholm[4] has suggested that it may in fact represent the processing of seal train oil.

A significant faunal assemblage has been recovered from the site. This suggests that in the late Mesolithic the economy was based upon the hunting of grey, ringed and harp seals, porpoise and fishing. Cattle, sheep, and pigs were introduced at the start of the Neolithic. However, there was a resurgence in seal hunting and fishing by the Middle Neolithic. Cattle and sheep returned during the late Neolithic and Bronze Age.[1] It has been argued[5] that the pigs which remain on Gotland during the Pitted Ware phase are in fact wild or feral animals, implying a general return to hunting and gathering during this period and not just a reversion to marine resources. Examination of the helical fracture pattern and dynamic impact scars of the bones from Ajvide[1] suggests that bone marrow extraction took place at this site.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajvide

Mornin all. I waited and waited for Alewyn to clarify last night early this morning in the end I went to bed but whatever. At that time I was thinking about windmills having seen a few in england which in many ways mimic Dutch practice of a tall form of structure made using a variety of building materials and I felt they might easily fit the bill for looking at the stars.

So far googling hasn't turned up much about the shape being six sided but from the few photo's that I've seen there are a couple on top of hillocks or mounds. The reason they work better when high up is obvious but it also struck me that this form of power can be utilized for many things. I was just wondering if one of you guys can short circuit this idea?

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So as not to miss this and for me to make a mental note not to attach to other work which easily distracts from the other posts (Sorry Puzz) I think as a multipurpose ready built defense station windmills answer this call admirably.

Breakdown: Brick built or mound base to resist or raise above water/country side ultimately to catch the wind. (Early ones seem six sided from what I can find) These structures can be used for many differing trades including foundry work, pumping, milling and so on. Nestled close by there are ware houses, storage facilities or whatever. However the basic structure needs none of these par se as they are all incorporated in one. With a telescope attached in the roof they would make (During more civil times) good observation points for star gazing.

The mills below show a variety of uses.

http://www.holland.c...aanseschans.jsp

Perhaps when used for military purposes mills were adapted with the barracks, store rooms and so on arranged within a hastily built redoubt or flood defense of some kind giving rise to their spoked appearance. Okay it's a bit of a stretch these days since many have obviously been demolished, built over and so on.

Any takers?

Edited by Flashbangwollap

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Finding ever more links between the our 'Frisians' or 'Fryans' and the 'Danes' or 'Heruli'(?).

It will take me some time to digest all of it, but can't wait to share some of the goodies with the forum.

Here's one, again from: "The Heruls" by Troels Brandt (page 109):

Finally the basical myths of the religion are supposed to be developed in a much older pagan environment, where no one would be expected to read antique historians and combine them in that way. The picture-stones at Gotland indicate that antique legends were known early, but not necessarily from books. Dudo confirmed only 40 years after Denmark was officially baptized, that the Danes boasted of Greek ancestors, so already at that time the Dacian tradition was well established without any connection with Procopius and his Heruls. Thus Snorri did not invent the southeastern connection. On the contrary his explanations and different versions show doubt in his mind about the Troy-legend, but not about men from the region of Tanais becoming kings of Scandinavia.

Did you read my post about Denmark being called "Dacia" in medieval times?

The only other Dacia was in what is now Romania/Balkan. And that is where the Heruls lived for ages, before they returned to where they once lived: Denmark.

And it is known that when they lived in the Balkans that they were in close contact with the Greeks, and no doubt they will have mutually influenced eachother. The Heruls may not have read Greek books, but storytelling must have been popular, and they picked up the Troy story and incorporated it into their legends.

As you will know, old English and Scottish rulers (and the Franks) claimed to have come from Troy.

.

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Hey not so fast I just got up after reading a bit more. I get a numb bum sitting reading all day.

You may think this flippant but it's not meant to be okay. As more land has appeared with the dike's being moved forward over time then why not move the town?

From Wiki:

The coat of arms of Leeuwarden is the official symbol of the municipality of Leeuwarden. It consists of a blue escutcheon, a golden lion and a crown. The fact Leeuwarden carries a lion in its seal seems logical, considering that "Leeuw" is Dutch for "Lion". However, it is very plausible the oldest name of the city conceals an indication of water rather than an animal. Some sources tell the lion had been called into life after the name became official. It's also possible the coat of arms was a gift to the city from the powerful Minnema family.

Scenario (Mine) :

The Frisians return home from the Mediterranean area their old town in ruins or has been carted away by those that stayed to be made use of in some other way. The new guy in charge decides to rebuild the new town elsewhere and call it Leeuwarden once more.

Medinet Habu Medi >middle, net >Mesh, tied together with water or canals, habu >Habitat medows surrounding habitat. I still think it plausable. and that makes a good connection with Egypt and Wilkens to me.

While you're thinking on that here's another to mull over. Akhenarten >Achaean. I know but not far off phonetically aye?

Medinet Habu is the modern name of the area where Ramses III built his mortuary temple. Ramses III ruled Egypt for 31 years (c. 1183-1153 B.C.). Medina means “city,” and Habu is the actual name of the city. It is thus “Habu City.” One straight axis runs through the temple, but originally there were a number of gates. The entire temple would have been roofed in antiquity.

http://www.bibleplaces.com/medinethabu.htm

And Leeuwarden wasn't 'moved', it has been on the east coast of the Middle Sea for many ages.

Now this was my point when I started about Leeuwarden:

We are supposed to believe that several generations of "Ocke"'s family copied the OLB in Leeuwarden. Last copy: 1256 AD. Those who copied it may have done so while looking out over the Middel Sea. Don't you think it is strange that they 'may' have talked about the Mediterranean, called it 'Middel Sea' instead, and all the time never gave the Middel Sea in front of their noses a second thought??

This is the seal of Leeuwarden, btw:

image_phpIAkFWW.jpg

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Responding to all these posts is becoming a steady job, lol.

And what about the results of the investigation into the age of the OLB manuscript??

It's the end of februari, and I haven't heard or read anything yet.

Anyone?

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The priests Solon spoke to in Egypt were from Sais, these Saites are said to be related to Greeks so indeed it was also their own peoples history they knew, that was the Greeks.

Of all peope here, you will know about the alternative explanation: that Solon went to his close friend in Lydia (Turkey), King Crusus, instead, and learned there about the destruction (by a flood) of a "Tantalis".

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We have discussed and argued about Abe’s theory that the “Middel Sea” and other place names in the OLB was in the Netherlands for a very long time now. I hope the following quotes from the OLB will put that argument to bed now for once and for all.

In short, the “Middel Sea” was the “Mediterranean” which should now be abundantly clear to everybody. (Whether the OLB is a hoax or not)

My explanations in brackets:

The Book of Adela’s Followers

Tunis and Inka

When Tunis wished to return home (From Godahisburgh / Gothenburg in Sweden), he went first towards Denamark (Denmark); but he might not land there, for so the folk-mother had ordered, nor was he to land at Flyland (Flevoland, Netherlands) nor anywhere about there. In this way he would have lost all his people by want and hardship, so he landed at night to steal and sailed by day(a long journey). Thus coasting along, he at length arrived at the colony of Kadik, (Cadiz, Spain) so called because it was built with a stone quay. (He sailed from Sweden to Spain)

Here they bought all kinds of stores, but Tutia the burgh-femme would not allow them to settle there. When they were ready they began to disagree. Tunis wished to sail through the straits (of Gibraltar) to the Middel Sea (Mediterranean), and enter the service of the rich king (Pharaoh) of Egiptaland (Egypt), as he had done before, but Inka said he had had enough of all those Finda's people (Easterners). Inka thought that perchance some high-lying part of Atland might remain as an island, where he and his people might live in peace.

As the two brothers could not agree, Tunis planted a red flag on the shore, and Inka a blue flag. Every man could choose which he pleased, and to their astonishment the greater part of the Finnar and Magyarar followed Inka, who had objected to serve the kings of Finda's people. When they had counted the people and divided the ships accordingly, the fleet separated. We shall here of Tunis afterwards, but nothing more of Inka.

Nef Tunis coasted through the straits (of Gibraltar) to the Middel Sea (Mediterranean). When Atland was submerged there was much suffering also on the shores of the Middel Sea, on which account many of Finda's people (Easterners), Heinde (Italy) and Fere (Greece) Krekalandar, and people from Lyda's land (Libya), came to us. On the other hand, many of our people went to Lyda's land (Berbers?). The result of all this was that the Heinde and Fere Krekalandar were lost to the superintendence of the folk-mother. (They were far away from the Netherlands)

Tunis had reckoned on this, and had therefore wished to find there a good haven from which he might go and serve under the rich princes (Pharaohs?) ; but as his fleet and his people had such a shattered appearance, the inhabitants on the coasts thought that they were pirates, (they did not know them, so they were not in the Netherlands) and drove them away.

At last they arrived at the Phonisiar coast (Phoenicia / coast of Syria), in the year 193 after Atland was submerged.

Near the coast they found an island (discovered) with two deep bays, so that there appeared to be three islands. In the middle one they established themselves, and afterwards built a burgh wall round the place. Then they wanted to give it a name, but disagreed about it. Some wanted to call it Fryasburch, others Neftunia; but the Magyarar and Finnar begged that it might be called Thyrhisburch. (Tyre)

Thyr was the name of one of their idols, and it was upon his feast-day that they had landed there; and in return they offered to recognise Tunis as their perpetual king. Tunis let himself be persuaded, and the others would not make any quarrel about it.

When they were well established, they sent some senior navigators and Magyarar on an expedition as far as the burgh of Sydon (Sidon on the coast of Lebanon); but at first the inhabitants of the coast would have nothing to do with them, saying:

"You are only foreign adventurers whom we do not respect."(The people from Sidon did not know them)

But when we sold them some of our silver weapons, everything went well. They also wished to buy our amber, and their inquiries about it were incessant. But Tunis, who was far-seeing, pretended that he had no more weapons or amber.

Then merchants came and begged him to let them have twenty vessels, which they would freight with the finest goods, and they would provide as many people to row as he would require. Twelve ships were laden with wine, honey, tanned leather, and saddles and bridles mounted in gold, such as had never been seen before. (They were not in the Netherlands)

Tunis sailed to the Flymar (Netherlands) with all this treasure, which so enchanted the reeve of Westflyland that he induced Tunis to build a warehouse at the mouth of the Flymar. Afterwards this place was called Almanland, and the market where they traded at Wyringga was called Toletmark.

The Golar and Missellia

What the consequence of this was -

In the northernmost part of the Middel Sea (Mediterranean) there lies an island close to the coast. They now came and asked to buy that, on which a general assembly was held.

The folk-mother's advice was asked, and she wished to see them at some distance (i.e not close to the Netherlands), so she saw no harm in it; but as we afterwards saw what a mistake we had made, we called the island Missellia (Marseilles in France).

The Celts

Then came the Golar out of the Middel Sea (Mediterranean) with their ships to Kadik (Cadiz, Spain), and along all our coasts, and fell upon Brittania (Britain); but they could not make any good footing there, because the government was powerful and the exiles were still Children of Frya.

Jon, Minerva and Athens

Now we shall write how it fared with Jon; it is inscribed at Texland –

Ten years after Jon went away, there arrived three ships in the Flymar; the people cried, "Huzza!" From their accounts the folk-mother had this written:(They had no news from them for 10 years because the were far away)

When Jon reached the Middel Sea (Mediterranean), the reports of the Golar (From Golan in Phoenicia) had preceded him, so that on the coast of Heinde Krekaland (Italy) he was nowhere safe. Therefore he went with his fleet straight over to Lydia (Libya). There the black men wanted to catch them and eat them (Black cannibals in the Netherlands – lol). At last they came to Thyr (Tyre – note the name has now, 400 years later, changed from Thyrhisburch to Thyr), but Minerva said:

"Keep clear, for here the air has been long poisoned by the priests."

The king was a descendant of Tunis, as we were afterwards informed (they did not know this at first); but as the priests wished to have a king, who, according to their ideas, was of long descent, they deified Tunis, to the vexation of his followers. After they had passed Thyr, the Thyriar seized one of the rearmost ships, and as the ship was too far behind us, we could not take it back again (on the open sea); but Jon swore to be revenged for it.

When night came, Jon went his course towards Fere Krekaland (Greece). At last they arrived at a country that looked very barren (Not in the Netherlands), but they found a harbour there. Minerva said:

"Here we need not perhaps have any fear of princes or priests, as they always look out for rich fat lands."

When they entered the harbour, there was not room for all the ships, and yet most of the people were too cowardly to go any further.

Between Fere and Heinde Krekaland (Italy and Greece) Jon found some islands, which he thought desirable. Upon the largest he built a burgh in the wood between the mountains (Mountains in the Netherlands?). From the smaller islands he made expeditions for vengeance on the Thyriar, and plundered their ships and their lands. Therefore these islands were called Rawer Elanda, as well as Jonhis Elanda (Ionian Islands).

When Minerva had examined the country which is called by the inhabitants Attika (Attica), she saw that the people were all goatherds, and that they lived on meat, wild roots, herbs, and honey. They were clothed in skins, and had their dwellings on the slopes of the hills, wherefore they were called Hellinggar. (Hellenes)

The Writings of Frethorik and Wiliow

Return of the Gertmanne

When we came to the Euphrat (Euphrates River in Iraq), Nearchus (Alexander the Great’s Admiral) went ashore with the soldiers and a large body of people; but he soon returned, and said:

"The king (Alexander the Great) requests you, for his sake, to go a voyage up the Rade Sea (Red Sea); after that each shall receive as much gold as he can carry."

When we arrived there, he showed us where the strait had formerly been (Near present day Suez Canal) . There he spent thirty-one days, always looking steadily towards the desert.

At last there arrived a great troop of people, bringing with them two hundred elephants, a thousand camels (In the Netherlands?), a quantity of timber, ropes, and all kinds of implements necessary to drag our fleet to the Middel Sea (Mediterranean). This astounded us, and seemed most extraordinary, but Nearchus told us that his king wished to show to the other kings that he was more powerful than any kings of Thyr had ever been. We were only to assist, and that surely could do us no harm.

We were obliged to yield, and Nearchus knew so well how to regulate everything, that before three months had elapsed our ships lay in the Middel Sea (Mediterranean).

The Writings of Beden

Askar (ca 71 BC – 11 AD)

In order to make myself well understood, I must let alone for a while my account of the Skotse people (Skots / Scotland), and write something about the Heinde Krekalandar (Italy). The Heinde Krekalandar formerly belonged to us only, but from time immemorial descendants of Lyda (Libya / Africa) and Finda (Easterners) have established themselves there.

Of these last there came in the end a whole troop from Troia (Troy). Troia is the name of a state that the Fere Krekalandar (Greeks) had taken and destroyed. When the Trojans had nestled themselves among the Heinde Krekalandar, with time and industry they built a strong state with walls and a burgh named Rome (In Italy), that is, "Spacious". When this was done, the people by craft and force made themselves masters of the whole land.(Italy)

The people who live on the south side (Africa) of the Middel Sea (Mediterranean) come for the most part from Phonisia. The Phonisiar are a b****** race of the blood of Frya, Finda, and Lyda. The Lyda people were there as slaves, but by the unchastity of the women these black people have degenerated the other people and dyed them brown.

These people and the people of Rome are constantly struggling for the supremacy over the Middel Sea. The Romar, moreover, live at enmity with the Phonisiar (Punic Wars); and their priests, who wish to assume the sole government of the World, cannot bear the sight of the Golar.

Askar (ca 71 BC – 11 AD)

This is the way in which the punishment came. They had all together taken a whole fleet that came out of the Middel Sea. This fleet was laden with purple cloths and other valuables that came from Phonisia

I am sort of convinced you simply ignore what I have been saying here all along: that several writers worked on the OLB.

From the description of the layout of Frya's empire we first learn that it stretched from the Middel Sea in the direction of the sunset to the Aster Sea in the direction of the sunrise. meaning: from the Frisian Middel Sea to the East Sea (or Baltic).

According to you that would be between the Med and the Black Sea, but that would mean it only occupied present day Greece and Turkey.

And later on in the OLB (later time period) it is of course clearly suggested that the Middel Sea was nothing else but the sea we now call Mediterranean.

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Medinet Habu is the modern name of the area where Ramses III built his mortuary temple. Ramses III ruled Egypt for 31 years (c. 1183-1153 B.C.). Medina means "city," and Habu is the actual name of the city. It is thus "Habu City." One straight axis runs through the temple, but originally there were a number of gates. The entire temple would have been roofed in antiquity.

http://www.bibleplac...medinethabu.htm

And Leeuwarden wasn't 'moved', it has been on the east coast of the Middle Sea for many ages.

Now this was my point when I started about Leeuwarden:

We are supposed to believe that several generations of "Ocke"'s family copied the OLB in Leeuwarden. Last copy: 1256 AD. Those who copied it may have done so while looking out over the Middel Sea. Don't you think it is strange that they 'may' have talked about the Mediterranean, called it 'Middel Sea' instead, and all the time never gave the Middel Sea in front of their noses a second thought??

This is the seal of Leeuwarden, btw:

image_phpIAkFWW.jpg

.

Hi Abe. Not so strange to me at least. As I said, I prefer Wilkens theory to any other I have come across. One of the things he mentions and I'm sure you have read about too is this business of calling area's and so on by familiar names back home. However as with Britain and Holland there's very little left on the ground to back it up using finds and so on. This imo in no small part down to the weather and the Druids, (perhaps).

When you compare Odysseus traveling in the Atlantic , North sea then try to fit the story into the Mediterranean it looks a mess. I still think overall I give Wilkens over the OLB but both stories have been as is indicated, tampered with in the past.

There are two ways of doing things from our point of view. Carry on digging around or like others wait for confirmation from the Professionals. I'd rather not wait since it could be long after I'm gone that they find out.

Edited by Flashbangwollap

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A correction: The OLB describe rectangular structures (as per your longhouses) but circular town centre layouts. These town centre layouts (In the form of the Yule) would have been defined by gardens / roads / fences and therefore very little archaeological evidence would have remained.

As I said in my book, Europe has been continuously inhabited for millennia and most of these old towns merely evolved into the towns we see today. Just look at the satellite images of Leeuwarden (Appolinia's burgh) and Middelburg, both of which match Appolinia's description.

I wish I could copy the drawing Overwijn published in his book about the OLB.

The Yule shape is formed by the hexagonal tower in the center, and the longhouses as spokes of a wheel positioned around it... the Yule shape has nothing to do with roads, gardens or fences.

"All this is made of bricks"

From the OLB:

Now I will write myself, first about my Citadel, and then about what I have been able to see.

My city lies near the north end of the Liudgaarde. The tower has six sides, and is ninety feet high, fiat-roofed, with a small house upon it out of which they look at the stars. On either side of the tower is a house three hundred feet long, and twenty-one feet broad, and twenty-one feet high, besides the roof, which is round. All this is built of hard-baked bricks, and outside there is nothing else. The citadel is surrounded by a dyke, with a moat thirty-six feet broad and twenty-one feet deep. If one looks down from the tower, he sees the form of the Juul. In the ground among the houses on the south side all kinds of native and foreign herbs grow, of which the maidens must study the qualities. Among the houses on the north side there are only fields. The three houses on the north are full of corn and other necessaries; the two houses on the south are for the maidens to live in and keep school. The most southern house is the dwelling of the Burgtmaagd. In the tower hangs the lamp. The walls of the tower are decorated with precious stones. On the south wall the Tex is inscribed. On the right side of this are the formulae, and on the other side the laws; the other things are found upon the three other sides. Against the dyke, near the house of the Burgtmaagd, stand the oven and the mill, worked by four oxen. Outside the citadel wall is the place where the Burgtheeren and the soldiers live. The fortification outside is an hour long—not a seaman's hour, but an hour of the sun, of which twenty-four go to a day. Inside it is a plain five feet below the top. On it are three hundred crossbows covered with wood and leather.

Besides the houses of the inhabitants, there are along the inside of the dyke thirty-six refuge-houses for the people who live in the neighbourhood. The field serves for a camp and for a meadow. On the south side of the outer fortification is the Liudgaarde, enclosed by the great wood of lime-trees. Its shape is three-cornered, with the widest part outside, so that the sun may shine in it, for there are a great number of foreign trees and flowers brought by the seafarers. All the other citadels are the same shape as ours, only not so large; but the largest of all is that of Texland. The tower of the Fryaburgt is so high that it rends the sky, and all the rest is in proportion to the tower.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/atl/olb/olb39.htm

Yule wheel:

juulschrift.jpg-for-web-small.jpg

.

Edited by Abramelin

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I wish I could copy the drawing Overwijn published in his book about the OLB.

The Yule shape is formed by the hexagonal tower in the center, and the longhouses as spokes of a wheel positioned around it... the Yule shape has nothing to do with roads, gardens or fences.

"All this is made of bricks"

From the OLB:

Now I will write myself, first about my Citadel, and then about what I have been able to see.

My city lies near the north end of the Liudgaarde. The tower has six sides, and is ninety feet high, fiat-roofed, with a small house upon it out of which they look at the stars. On either side of the tower is a house three hundred feet long, and twenty-one feet broad, and twenty-one feet high, besides the roof, which is round. All this is built of hard-baked bricks, and outside there is nothing else. The citadel is surrounded by a dyke, with a moat thirty-six feet broad and twenty-one feet deep. If one looks down from the tower, he sees the form of the Juul. In the ground among the houses on the south side all kinds of native and foreign herbs grow, of which the maidens must study the qualities. Among the houses on the north side there are only fields. The three houses on the north are full of corn and other necessaries; the two houses on the south are for the maidens to live in and keep school. The most southern house is the dwelling of the Burgtmaagd. In the tower hangs the lamp. The walls of the tower are decorated with precious stones. On the south wall the Tex is inscribed. On the right side of this are the formulae, and on the other side the laws; the other things are found upon the three other sides. Against the dyke, near the house of the Burgtmaagd, stand the oven and the mill, worked by four oxen. Outside the citadel wall is the place where the Burgtheeren and the soldiers live. The fortification outside is an hour long—not a seaman's hour, but an hour of the sun, of which twenty-four go to a day. Inside it is a plain five feet below the top. On it are three hundred crossbows covered with wood and leather.

Besides the houses of the inhabitants, there are along the inside of the dyke thirty-six refuge-houses for the people who live in the neighbourhood. The field serves for a camp and for a meadow. On the south side of the outer fortification is the Liudgaarde, enclosed by the great wood of lime-trees. Its shape is three-cornered, with the widest part outside, so that the sun may shine in it, for there are a great number of foreign trees and flowers brought by the seafarers. All the other citadels are the same shape as ours, only not so large; but the largest of all is that of Texland. The tower of the Fryaburgt is so high that it rends the sky, and all the rest is in proportion to the tower.

http://www.sacred-te...l/olb/olb39.htm

.

I once owned a boat. It was 54' long it had to lofty mast which made you giddy when you looked to the top of them. The boat was very beautiful with ornate carvings of dragons on each bow. Inside it was made from the best woods available. Brag Brag Brag. Funny thing is Abe it's true. And I could post a picture but just to be (Mysterious) or a git I wont.

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That is some 3000 years older than the OLB. Once again, the OLB tale does not seem to be so far-fetched.

Thanks Abe.

Exactly: those longhouses were built 7000 years ago, and we still find traces of them. And not only in The Netherlands, but also elsewhere in Europe.

But still nothing like any citadel (shaped like a Yule wheel, made of hard-baked bricks) has been found.

Recycling of material is not an excuse; they are even able to find traces/patterns of ancient habitation by the fact that the soil is somewhat different (moisture, minerals) and so plants grow taller or shorter, or different plants grow there. These patterns are visible from the air.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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I am sort of convinced you simply ignore what I have been saying here all along: that several writers worked on the OLB.

Abe, you have suggested several times that you consider the Frisian Joost Halbertsma (1789-1869) to be the mastermind, the main suspect of having created the supposed OLB-hoax.

I invite you to have a look into his mind and then reconsider the plausibility of this.

The following is copied from his publication "LETTERKUNDIGE NAOOGST" (1840), a study of Frisian poetry and literature and the meaning of words (page 138). Translation into English, followed by the original.

Improvised translation

"Tzjerl. The Latin gerulus, a carrier, is like the Germanic carle, Anglosaxon céorle, English churl [tshurl] and this Tjzerl or tzjirl; meaning a man, that by his birth is doomed to carry and tote, or to general land-labour. We already saw that the word with the Anglosaxons and the Frisians had the meaning of a service-man, with or without the prefix hûs. But these huis-kerels, that is, house-servants, became besides fieldworkers, also servants around the house for the landlords and later also for helpers in battle. King Aelfric therefore used the term æcer-céorl, akkerkerel or farmer, as opposed to hûs-cèorl. That's why in medieval Latin hus-carla not only means the man, who is part of the court of a prince or lord, but also the warrior from the court, or one of the bodyguards. Du Cange gave an example where the king gave certain orders to all soldiers of his court, that in Danish are called hûs-carlen. Gabbema (...) shows the tzirlen as meaning fight-mates, and Gysbert uses it in a similar sense like comrade, fellow, loyal mate. The Hollanders say in that same sense "kereltje" to the children, and the Friezen Tzirl to a grown up man. Tzirl is more proud and more masculine than Kereltje. Friesland was the most aristocratic nation of the world, yet so much tempered by democracy, that the farmer calls his landlord Tzerl with the deepest respect. This cultural spirit, still owned by the English, was the result of these peoples being ruled by the ancient duces, mentioned by Tacitus."

Dutch

"Tzjerl. Het Latijnsche gerulus, een drager, staat over tegen het Germaansche carle, Angels, céorle, Eng. churl [tshurl] en dit Tjzerl of tzjirl; duidende dus eigenlijk een man aan, die door zijne geboorte tot dragen en sjouwen, of tot gemeenen veldarbeid, gedoemd is. Wij hebben reeds gezien, dat het woord bij de Angelsaxen en Friezen de beteekenis van zulk eenen dienstman bezat, het zij dan met of zonder vooraanzetting van hûs. Maar die huis-kerels, dat is, huis-knechten, wierden behalve tot den veldarbeid, bij de groote heeren vervolgens ook tot huisdiensten, en eindelijk tot helpers in den strijd gebruikt. Koning Aelfric sprak daarom al van eenen æcer-céorl, akkerkerel of boer, in tegenstelling met een hûs-cèorl. Van daar beteekent in het middeneeuwsch Latijn hus-carla niet alleen den man, die tot den hofstoet van een prins of groot heer behoort, maar ook den krijgsman uit de hofhouding, die tot de lijfwacht behoorde. Du Cange haalt daartoe onder anderen eene plaats aan, waarin de koning aan al de soldaten van zijne huishouding, welke men in het Deensch hûs-carlen noemt, zeker bevel geeft. Bij Gabbema (...) komen de tzirlen dan ook voor als strijdgenooten, en in dergelijken zin van kameraad, beste, trouwe maat, neemt het ook Gysbert. De Hollanders zeggen in dien zelfden zin kereltje tegen de kinders, waarin de Friezen Tzirl tot een volwassen man. Tzirl is deftiger en mannelijker dan Kereltje. Friesland was het aristocratischste land der wereld, doch zoo sterk getemperd door de democratie, dat de boer behoudens de diepste achting zijnen landheer Tzerl noemt. Deze volksgeest, die nog aan de Engelschen eigen is, was het uitvloeisel van het staan dezer volkstammen onder de aloude duces, van welke Tacitus spreekt.

Some conclusions

1)

Halbertsma starts with comparing this Frisian word "Tzjerl" with its counterparts in Latin, Germanic, Anglosaxon and English. He emphatically leaves out the Dutch "Kerel". Later he mentions that the Hollanders call their children "kereltje", but he immediately adds that the Frisian word is so much more masculine and proud.

In the OLB, the version of this word is KERDEL and it is used only twice:

(Fryan) KERDEL = (Dutch) kerel = (German) Kerl = (Swedish) kille = (Frisian) = tzjerl

(the modern English churl has a negative meaning, but apparently in the 19th century it was still a positive term)

Related names: Karel, Karl, Carl, Charles, Carolus, Carlos

transliteration Ottema, 1876:

[p.041] Jahwêder jong kerdel âch en brud to sêka ånd is er fif ånd twintich sa âcht-er en wif to håva.

[p.119] Thâ hja landa hipte-n jong kerdel wal vp. In sina handa hêdi-n skild, thêrvp was bråd åend salt lêid.

Now imagine this Halbertsma, being a proud nationalsist Frisian, who liked to believe that his Frisian language was older than the language of the Hollanders that he must have hated or at least despised so much. And he has a little obsession with this word tzjerl (in his beloved English: churl).

Why would he, writing his political and/or cultural-historical masterpiece use a version of this word that is much closer to the Hollandic KEREL that to his Frisian TZJERL? And he could easily have used this word many times, preferrably in combination with "HûS-", but no, it's only used twice and only in the context of a young man, and hardly as the hard working or brave, proud loyal warrior that he described in his 1840 essay.

2)

He proudly calls Friesland the most aristocratic nation of the world and he does not seem very pleased with the democratic principle. The OLB does not reflect these sentiments at all.

3)

He suggests that the respect that the Frisians and English still have for their landlords stems from the time of the DUCES from the Roman times (reminds me of Mussolini LOL). How do you think the Folkmothers and the free fryans from the OLB would have felt about those 'duces'? That was a rhetorical question indeed.

So, in this short sample, there's already three reasons to dismiss the theory that Halbertsma would have been involved in the creation of the OLB.

Even über-hoaxtheorist Jensma did not consider Halbertsma a serious candidate for the job.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

And no, I didn't recieve news about the paper and ink study yet.

Don't worry, you'll know only a few hours later than me.

Edited by Otharus

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(Fryan) KERDEL = (Dutch) kerel = (German) Kerl = (Swedish) kille = (Frisian) = tzjerl = (English) churl?

This reminds me of a realization I had earlier ~ ~ ~

An important and obvious reason why the most powerful members of the 19th century proud nationalist Frisian nobility (and their followers) so fanatically rejected the Oera Linda-book is this:

The language of the OLB is too much like Hollandic, which is more like Westfrisian and Flemmish (or Nethersaxon) and not enough like their beloved Frysk (or the East-Frisian 'dialect').

Edited by Otharus

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I can give you a short reply about that word, "kerdel": it is from the Rüstringer dialect, the Frisian dialect Halbertsma loved to bits.

"Wörterbuch der ostfriesischen Sprache":

http://www.archive.org/stream/wrterbuchderos03dooruoft/wrterbuchderos03dooruoft_djvu.txt

.

Edited by Abramelin

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I am sort of convinced you simply ignore what I have been saying here all along: that several writers worked on the OLB.

What do you want me to respond to? This is exactly what the OLB tells us, viz. The Book of Adela's Followers, The Writings of Adelbrost & Appolonia, The Writings of Frethorik and Wiliow, The writings of Konered, The Writings of Beden, Luidgert the Gertman's Diary, etc.

You are also on record to have suggested that a single person, Halbertsma, wrote the OLB.

So, which is it?

The quotes which I posted about the "Middle Sea" comes from all the above writers. You seem to hang your hat on this quote to suggest the "Middle Sea" was an inland sea or lake in the Netherlands:

"This stand inscribed on all burghs -

...Eastward our boundary went to the extremity of the Aster Sea, and westwards to the Middel Sea;"

Although the original source of this description may have been different from that of, say, the tale of Tunis, Inka and Wodin, they were all taken up in the "Book of Adela's Followers" at the same time. Do you really think the compilers of "Adela's Book" would have described two different seas by the same name?

Secondly, if this "Middel Sea" was an inland lake, do you realy think their boundary would have stopped short of the North Sea at this inland lake?

I realy think you are flogging a dead horse with your theory that the "earlier Middle Sea" in the OLB was in the Netherlands.

The word that is causing the confusion is "westwards". In my book I suggested that this may have been a transcription error, but it is anybody's guess.

Edited by Alewyn

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What do you want me to respond to? This is exactly what the OLB tells us, viz. The Book of Adela's Followers, The Writings of Adelbrost & Appolonia, The Writings of Frethorik and Wiliow, The writings of Konered, The Writings of Beden, Luidgert the Gertman's Diary, etc.

You are also on record to have suggested that a single person, Halbertsma, wrote the OLB.

So, which is it?

The quotes which I posted about the "Middle Sea" comes from all the above writers. You seem to hang your hat on this quote to suggest the "Middle Sea" was an inland sea or lake in the Netherlands:

"This stand inscribed on all burghs -

...Eastward our boundary went to the extremity of the Aster Sea, and westwards to the Middel Sea;"

Although the original source of this description may have been different from that of, say, the tale of Tunis, Inka and Wodin, they were all taken up in the "Book of Adela's Followers" at the same time. Do you really think the compilers of "Adela's Book" would have described two different seas by the same name?

Secondly, if this "Middel Sea" was an inland lake, do you realy think their boundary would have stopped short of the North Sea at this inland lake?

I realy think you are flogging a dead horse with your theory that the "earlier Middle Sea" in the OLB was in the Netherlands.

The word that is causing the confusion is "westwards". In my book I suggested that this may have been a transcription error, but it is anybody's guess.

I have said Halbertsma is the MAIN suspect. I have also said a zillion times that at least 2 or 3 people worked on it together.

And THAT is what I mean when I say several people have worked on the OLB. In the 19th century that is..

-- About that transcription error: No, it's a translation/interpretation error, from the Dutch translation into english.

The original manuscript doesn't talk about west or east, it talks about 'in the direction of the evening' and 'in the direction of the morning'.

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Abe, you have suggested several times that you consider the Frisian Joost Halbertsma (1789-1869) to be the mastermind, the main suspect of having created the supposed OLB-hoax.

So, in this short sample, there's already three reasons to dismiss the theory that Halbertsma would have been involved in the creation of the OLB.

Even über-hoaxtheorist Jensma did not consider Halbertsma a serious candidate for the job.

You forgot to mention that he was also a church minister albeit not a very succesful one. Why would he have attempted to start a new religion (The reason given by Jensma for Haverscmidt) and then only when he was already 78 years old. The OLB manuscript appeared 2 years before his death.

Btw. Not even Ottema considered him as a possible "hoaxer".

Edited by Alewyn

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