[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood

[Abramelin]

What are you saying – that the family lived in Leeuwarden for a few generations or that they were copying for a few generations? Surely, you cannot agree on the latter because that would totally go against your “hoax” theory?

Lol, no: IF it wasn't a hoax, the writers must have been blind or suffering from a severe form of amnesia.

If it's a hoax - and that is what I think - then the 19th century writers must have added it to create a bit more confusion: any Frisian who read "Middel Sea" must have first thought of 'their' Middel Sea, the Frisian one, even though it was silted up and reclaimed in the 19th century.

[Abramelin]

That was the only reference to "kerdel" in the pdf-file you linked to.

It doesn't say that "kerdel" is Rustringian, that would be "kerel", just like in dutch, as said.

The Rüstringer (or Riustringer) dialect was an East Frisian ('Ostfriesisch') dialect.

"Kerdel" was again one of those 'exotic' sounding words to make the OLB appear as old as it was suppoed to be.

[Abramelin]

I suppose you got this from Menno Knul, but where did he get it from? I can't find anything to support this.

Second, and more importantly, the language of OLB is not at all more similar to this Rustringer dialect than to other Old-Frisian dialects from the time of the Christenings. I have the strong impression that Fryan is way more like old-Westfrisian (no, not Westerlauwers Frysk) and old-Nethersaxon, something Halbertsma would have hated, just like Beckering Vinkers c.s. did. But we'd need a linguist who is not emotionally attached to this to sort this out.

I'm sorry for this librarian Menno Knul because he must have worked like a monk, but I can't take him seriously.

You mean Halbertsma's love for the Rüstringer dialect? I got it from Menno Knul indeed (as I said the first time I mentioned this dialect), and afterwards I found confirmation of that. But now you will ask where and when I posted about that confirmation; it's in one of the 210 pages here.

Good luck searching.

I have to repeat myself day after day here, and I have had quite enough of that.

Maybe after you finally receive the results of the dating of the OLB and post them here, I will be willing to help you find it...

[Otharus]

...the Rüstringer dialect on which the OLB was clearly based

Amusing that you have fallen in love with this theory,

... but it's a fiction.

You obviously have not studied any Rustringian texts,

let alone compared them with Fryan.

I have.

[Otharus]

You mean Halbertsma's love for the Rüstringer dialect? I got it from Menno Knul indeed, and afterwards I found confirmation of that. But now you will ask where and when I posted about that confirmation; it's in one of the 210 pages here.

I'm certain that you did not.

I would remember that.

[Abramelin]

Amusing that you have fallen in love with this theory,

... but it's a fiction.

You obviously have not studied any Rustringian texts,

let alone compared them with Fryan.

I have.

Yeah, you're great, but I said BASED ON, and that is not the same as EQUAL TO.

[Otharus]

Yeah, you're great, but I said BASED ON, and that is not the same as EQUAL TO.

Knul's theory is BASED ON complete ignorance of old-Frisian dialects and so is your blind belief in it. I'm not going to repeat the logic that you keep ignoring.

Furthermore, and for the last time, Halbertsma's character, that has its refection in his publications, does not match at all with the 'spirit' of the OLB. He would have been just as insulted by it as Beckering Vinkers c.s. were.

You are wasting our time with this nonsense.

[Otharus]

Yeah, you're great, but I said BASED ON, and that is not the same as EQUAL TO.

I've just changed my mind and will play this game with you after all.

So, why do you believe that the language of the OLB is based on the Rustringer dialect?

It's not just because Menno Knul says so, is it?

[Abramelin]

Like I said: I will wait till you finally come up with the results of the dating of the OLB.

I have done enough to please you.

Continue with your Willibrord/ Delahaye stuff, it will occupy your mind for the time being.

.

Edited March 1, 2011 by Abramelin

[The_Spartan]

why the hell didnt they burn the book??

[Abramelin]

why the hell didnt they burn the book??

Well, maybe they accidentily did, it is radiocarbon dating, right?

[Otharus]

Like I said: I will wait till you finally come up with the results of the dating of the OLB.

I have done enough to please you.

That you are thus (implicitly) giving up pleases me.

[Alewyn]

Exactly: those longhouses were built 7000 years ago, and we still find traces of them. And not only in The Netherlands, but also elsewhere in Europe.

But still nothing like any citadel (shaped like a Yule wheel, made of hard-baked bricks) has been found.

Recycling of material is not an excuse; they are even able to find traces/patterns of ancient habitation by the fact that the soil is somewhat different (moisture, minerals) and so plants grow taller or shorter, or different plants grow there. These patterns are visible from the air.

.

You seem to be losing interest, so let me rattle your cage again (joke):

As I said previously, many of the OLB’s burghs or citadels evolved into the towns and cities which exist today. To discover archaeological evidence, therefore, will be quite daunting unless archaeologists recognise this fact. Many of these old cities are heritage sites and therefore no new buildings have been built there for (up to) centuries. We therefore do not have the benefit of the diggings of foundations for new buildings which would reveal this archaeological evidence.

In the UK, such as the York Minstrel Cathedral and at Bath, this evidence was only found when they had to do structural repairs to the foundations of old buildings. (I visited both sites)

Apollonia described her burgh, Liudwerd (Ljouwert / Leeuwarden). She said that the fortification was an hour long and the sign of the Yule could be seen from the top of the central hexagonal tower.

As I said in my book, a person walks at a moderate pace of about four kilometres per hour. This would then imply that these battlements were about 4 kilometres long or, put otherwise, they would circumscribe an area of about 100 hectares.

Satellite photos show the old inner city of Leeuwarden to be about 96 ha with traces what could be of the old Yule. Clearly the inner city / old burgh evolved over the last 2500 years but it would appear there are reasonable grounds to suspect that there are still traces of her old citadel.

Apollonia also stated that all their citadels had the same layout i.e. moats and yules.

Minerva / Ny-Hellenia hailed from Walhallagara on the “Siugon Elanda” (Seven Islands). The old Romans referred to “Walacra” and today it is known as (the island of?) Walcheren in the province of Zeeland in the Netherlands. I suggest that the present Middelburg could well be Minerva’s old Walhallagara.

Herewith a satellite image of Middelburg with the old moats and what could well be the remains of their old yule. Please bear in mind that these old moats could have been damaged by floods and repaired / altered many times over the last 2500 to 3500 years

In my book I have photographs of some 16 cities which could show traces of these old citadels in the Netherlands, Denmark, Germany, Sweden, Latvia, Poland and Romania.

So, you see, I believe there is evidence of these old citadels if we know what to look for.

Edited March 2, 2011 by Alewyn

[Abramelin]

You seem to be losing interest, so let me rattle your cage again (joke):

As I said previously, many of the OLBs burghs or citadels evolved into the towns and cities which exist today. To discover archaeological evidence, therefore, will be quite daunting unless archaeologists recognise this fact. Many of these old cities are heritage sites and therefore no new buildings have been built there for (up to) centuries. We therefore do not have the benefit of the diggings of foundations for new buildings which would reveal this archaeological evidence.

In the UK, such as the York Minstrel Cathedral and at Bath, this evidence was only found when they had to do structural repairs to the foundations of old buildings. (I visited both sites)

Apollonia described her burgh, Liudwerd (Ljouwert / Leeuwarden). She said that the fortification was an hour long and the sign of the Yule could be seen from the top of the central hexagonal tower.

As I said in my book, a person walks at a moderate pace of about four kilometres per hour. This would then imply that these battlements were about 4 kilometres long or, put otherwise, they would circumscribe an area of about 100 hectares.

Satellite photos show the old inner city of Leeuwarden to be about 96 ha with traces what could be of the old Yule. Clearly the inner city / old burgh evolved over the last 2500 years but it would appear there are reasonable grounds to suspect that there are still traces of her old citadel.

Apollonia also stated that all their citadels had the same layout i.e. moats and yules.

Minerva / Ny-Hellenia hailed from Walhallagara on the Siugon Elanda (Seven Islands). The old Romans referred to Walacra and today it is known as (the island of?) Walcheren in the province of Zeeland in the Netherlands. I suggest that the present Middelburg could well be Minervas old Walhallagara.

Herewith a satellite image of Middelburg with the old moats and what could well be the remains of their old yule. Please bear in mind that these old moats could have been damaged by floods and repaired / altered many times over the last 2500 to 3500 years

In my book I have photographs of some 16 cities which could show traces of these old citadels in the Netherlands, Denmark, Germany, Sweden, Latvia, Poland and Romania.

So, you see, I believe there is evidence of these old citadels if we know what to look for.

I am losing interest, because what the two of you posted, I already answered.

Like these citadels you talk about: I have said that the centers of these cities were originally socalled ringwalburchts, built around 900-1000 AD as defence against the Vikings (amongst others).

Later many if not all were replaced by motte castles, and again later, they were replaced by these star-shaped fortresses like the one in your picture.

.

Edited March 2, 2011 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

That you are thus (implicitly) giving up pleases me.

Maybe you need glasses, and I will repeat: you post the results about the dating of the OLB, and my interest will be rekindled.

Now I am getting the idea that the two of you just want to rekindle old discussions and to have the last word.

That's ok with me; people here can read.

I am not giving up, I am waiting for you to post what you promised to post.

[Alewyn]

Like these citadels you talk about: I have said that the centers of these cities were originally socalled ringwalburchts, built around 900-1000 AD as defence against the Vikings (amongst others).

Yeah. And before that they lived in trees.

[Abramelin]

Yeah. And before that they lived in trees.

If you have no desire to be serious, then stick to promoting and defending your book, but leave me out of it. I like a joke, but you seem to be very willing to ignore what I have posted recently (for instance).

Or read Otharus blog, http://fryskednis.blogspot.com/2011_01_01_archive.html

There you can read anything he agreed with in this thread, but not what contradicted his ideas.

Try to find what I said about BUDA meaning pouch or sack. Unless Otharus adds it now, you will not find it in his blog.

The OLB uses the word BUDA a couple of times, and I posted those lines. Also the one that obviously meant 'sack':

Post 2312, page 155:

This send domar fara horninga.

(...)

Orloch was vrtigen, men nêd was kvmen an sin stêd. Nw wêron hyr thrê maenniska thêr-ek en buda kêren stêlon fon asvndergane êjnhêra.

=

In Dutch:

Dit zijn bepalingen voor de hoerenkinderen.

(...)

Oorlog was voorbij gegaan, maar nood was in zijne plaats gekomen; nu waren er drie menschen die elk een zak koorn stalen van afzonderlijke eigenaren.

=

In English:

These are the rules concerning ba.stards ( >> literally, 'children of whores') -

(...)

War had come to an end, but famine came in its place. There were three men who each stole a sack of corn from different owners,

==

http://www.dbnl.org/tekst/_the002thet01_01/_the002thet01_01_0020.php

http://levigilant.com/Bulfinch_Mythology/bulfinch.englishatheist.org/linda/Oera-Linda.htm

But Otharus still thinks BUDA means wisdom...

.

Edited March 2, 2011 by Abramelin

[Alewyn]

If you have no desire to be serious, then stick to promoting and defending your book, but leave me out of it.

No, no, no. I am not so much promoting my book – I am promoting the Netherlands. Where is your entrepreneurial spirit?

Just think about it. If the OLB is true, tourists will flock to the Netherlands in droves to see the cradle of Western Civilization with zillions of Dollars, Yen, Pounds and even a few hundred South African Rands in their pockets.

The hometown of Minerva / Athenia, King Neptune’s birthplace, Wodin’s childhood years, etc. The possibilities are endless. You could even make a fortune yourself selling statuettes of Minerva.

Just imagine the French and Brits when they realize that the Gauls and Celts are your offspring – not to mention the Germans.

And to think I am battling to sell a measly few books. You should be ashamed…

On a serious note Abe. Non of our lives or livelihoods depend on this forum. I also became agitated on a few occasions, but I do not think it is such a bad thing to have our lighter moments.

[Abramelin]

No, no, no. I am not so much promoting my book – I am promoting the Netherlands. Where is your entrepreneurial spirit?

Just think about it. If the OLB is true, tourists will flock to the Netherlands in droves to see the cradle of Western Civilization with zillions of Dollars, Yen, Pounds and even a few hundred South African Rands in their pockets.

The hometown of Minerva / Athenia, King Neptune’s birthplace, Wodin’s childhood years, etc. The possibilities are endless. You could even make a fortune yourself selling statuettes of Minerva.

Just imagine the French and Brits when they realize that the Gauls and Celts are your offspring – not to mention the Germans.

And to think I am battling to sell a measly few books. You should be ashamed…

On a serious note Abe. Non of our lives or livelihoods depend on this forum. I also became agitated on a few occasions, but I do not think it is such a bad thing to have our lighter moments.

Look, I said promoting/defending your book, I wasn't even thinking about the money.

If I had written a book, my first desire would be that people take it seriously. And sure, I would like to earn a buck or two for the energy I had put into writing and researching, but nobody expects to get rich by writing books (unless you already are a very succesful and famous write).

And it's my impression that you are somewhat afraid people will be scared off, and don't want to take the trouble to read it. Well, as I have said a couple of times: buy the book people, it won't be a waste of your time, EVEN if you think the OLB is a fabulation/hoax.

--

Something else: even if the OLB is what it is supposed to be, then still we have a bit of a problem locating the cities/burchts/citadels, right? Not only the Netherlands will become a more popular tourist destination, but all of Europe and the Mediterranean too.

[Otharus]

But Otharus still thinks BUDA means wisdom...

Insomnia and amnesia go hand in hand.

As for BUDA, I showed that Godfrey Higgins said it means wisdom (which may still be true in other traditions). You showed that elsewhere in the OLB it means something like sack. Fair enough but still BUDA is not an example of a ridiculous etymology that would prove OLB is a hoax. People in 600 BC will also have had a sense of imagination and homor.

[Abramelin]

Insomnia and amnesia go hand in hand.

Otharus, on 06 February 2011 - 02:42 AM, said:

As for BUDA, I showed that Godfrey Higgins said it means wisdom (which may still be true in other traditions). You showed that elsewhere in the OLB it means something like sack. Fair enough but still BUDA is not an example of a ridiculous etymology that would prove OLB is a hoax. People in 600 BC will also have had a sense of imagination and homor.

Whatever, I never said BUDA was an example of ridiculous etymology. That was Jensma, not me.

And it is telling you did not add the sentence in the OLB to your blog, the sentence that clearly shows BUDA means 'sack'.

Don't put words in my mouth, and if you cannot refrain from sarcasm, then please add the results of the dating of the OLB in your next post too.

[Abramelin]

Interesting indeed. I note, however, that he died in 1858 - if he wrote the OLB, what was C. Over de Linden doing with it for 10 years?

Something I forgot (I happened to stumble upon this page with Google):

It was Eeltje Halbertsma, Joost Halbertsma's brother, who died in 1858.

Joost Halbertsma died in 1869:

geboren: 23 oktober 1789 te Grouw (born .... in Grouw)

overleden: 27 februari 1869 te Deventer (died .... in Deventer)

http://www.dbnl.org/auteurs/auteur.php?id=halb003

[Abramelin]

In the days of Klakk-Haraldr the county of Rüstringen comprised more than the district with the same name. The whole area east of the large marshlands of Eastern Frisia can be ascribed to this county. The districts of Wangerland (with the island of Wangeroge) and Östringen and possibly the small districts Wiurden and Wursten on the eastern bank of the Weser belonged to Rüstringen.

http://home.tiscali.nl/gjallar/Plaatsen_Jever_Engels.html

Nr. 446, Hs.Slg. Nr. 446 (um 1845/50)

Materialsammlung zur friesischen Sprache auf der Insel Wangerooge Darin: 2 Briefe von Dr. J. H. Halbertsma in Leeuwarden und Deventer (1847)

http://www.mgbibliothek.mgjever.de/neuzhss.html

That was a letter from Halbertsma concerning the language spoken at Wangerooge, a dialect akin the earlier Rüstringer dialect.

Wangerooge is an island north of Rüstringen county.

-

Halbertsma:

Hij schreef ook fries; verfrieste veel: eigenaardig! - oudfranse vertelsels zo karakteristiek-fries dat men ze voor fries houdt.1) Om de friese taal in leven te houden: ‘òf het niet mogelik zou zijn deze grijze dochter der germaanse oudheid nog enige tijd het verder doorglippen te beletten?’...

(...)

Toch, Halbertsma was meer taalkenner als taalkundige.

Als hij etymologiseert, is alles mogelik. Dat deed men toen meer zo. Betekenissen - nu, die mishandelt men nog wel! - maar klanken vooral werden zo ‘mir nichts dir nichts’ maar gekombineerd. Hij was ‘voor geen kleintje vervaard’. In 't algemeen was Halbertsma ‘niet doordrongen van het gewicht der door Grimm op een vaste rots gestichte historiese taalvergelijking.’

http://dbnl.nl/tekst/_gro002190501_01/_gro002190501_01_0065.php

I am not going to give you a literal translation, but this is what it is about:

Halbertsma loved to 'Frisionate' old texts, and he did it so well that no one would doubt they were not in original Frisian at all.

His etymologies were kind of 'forced'.. heh. And people back then loved that sport.

Grimm was a real linguist (Halbertsma's best friend), but he - Halbertsma - was bothered by a big imagination.

Otharus and Alewyn can read it, so I am awaiting their reply.

Anyone else able to read Dutch: Google "Halbertsma" AND "Wangerppg(e)".

.

Edited March 2, 2011 by Abramelin

[Otharus]

... but I do not think it is such a bad thing to have our lighter moments.

Good idea, I just had one again:

Frana's prophecy ~ fragment (591 BC)

1. OLB original manuscript p.83-84, as translitterated by Ottema

2. Ottema (1876) p.115-117, with suggested corrections

3. Sandbach (1876) p.115-117, with suggested corrections

Vndera tydum that Aldland svnken is,

In de tijden, dat Atland [Aldland] verzonken is,

At the time of the submersion of Atland [Aldland],

stand thju forma spêke fon thet Jol an top.

stond de eerste spaak van het Juul [Jol] in top.

the first spoke of the Juul [Jol] stood at the top.

Thêrnêi is hju del gvngon ånd vsa frydom mith tham.

Daarna is zij nedergegaan en onze vrijheid met haar.

After that it went down, and our freedom with it.

(...)

Alle wla skêdnese tham forsunnen send

Alle vuile geschiedenissen, die verzonnen zijn

All the stories [pseudohistories] that have been written [made up]

vmbe tha forsta ånd prestera to boga,

om de vorsten en priesteren te roemen,

in praise of the princes and priests

skilun an logha ofred wertha.

zullen aan de vlam geofferd worden.

shall be committed [offered] to the flames.

Forth skilun al thinra bern mith frêtho lêva.

Voortaan zullen alle uwe kinderen in vrede leven.

Thenceforth [all] your children shall live in peace.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Frana thought each spoke of the wheel represented a 1000 years.

Could it be 700?

[Abramelin]

Good idea, I just had one again:

Frana's prophecy ~ fragment (591 BC)

1. OLB original manuscript p.83-84, as translitterated by Ottema

2. Ottema (1876) p.115-117, with suggested corrections

3. Sandbach (1876) p.115-117, with suggested corrections

Vndera tydum that Aldland svnken is,

In de tijden, dat Atland [Aldland] verzonken is,

At the time of the submersion of Atland [Aldland],

stand thju forma spêke fon thet Jol an top.

stond de eerste spaak van het Juul [Jol] in top.

the first spoke of the Juul [Jol] stood at the top.

Thêrnêi is hju del gvngon ånd vsa frydom mith tham.

Daarna is zij nedergegaan en onze vrijheid met haar.

After that it went down, and our freedom with it.

(...)

Alle wla skêdnese tham forsunnen send

Alle vuile geschiedenissen, die verzonnen zijn

All the stories [pseudohistories] that have been written [made up]

vmbe tha forsta ånd prestera to boga,

om de vorsten en priesteren te roemen,

in praise of the princes and priests

skilun an logha ofred wertha.

zullen aan de vlam geofferd worden.

shall be committed [offered] to the flames.

Forth skilun al thinra bern mith frêtho lêva.

Voortaan zullen alle uwe kinderen in vrede leven.

Thenceforth [all] your children shall live in peace.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Frana thought each spoke of the wheel represented a 1000 years.

Could it be 700?

I pointed to an OLB prophecy for 1806/7 AD.

You remember that post of mine? Napoleon? "Liberty, Freedom, Equality"??

Or do you - again - expect me to do your work??

-

I think so...

I have been discussing with Puzzler - you were not even around.

But you are free to accuse me of amnesia again, but I tell you: you did not read all of this thread.

Despite your fanatic belief in the OLB, you are not at all interested in what has gone on before you hopped on this bus.

Read this thread in full, and do not keep on asking me questions I have answered long ago.

I will bet a dime that you did read it in full, but you expect that people will not take the trouble to read 210 pages, and so you ask me for answers again, answers I gave long ago.

,

Edited March 2, 2011 by Abramelin