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Riaan

[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood

11,638 posts in this topic

No oranges to begin with. They're native to Asia and according to wiki weren't introduced to Europe until the 11th century.

Yeah, you are right, and I should have known... here in the Netherlands we say "sinaasappel", which is nothing more or less than "Chinese apple", lol.

Well, if you find a better example of a typical Mediterranean plant/tree/shrub/herb, please tell.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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I have come to the conclusion that mr. Vandemaele is wrong about (most of) his topography of the OLB.

Although it may be right that the 'Frisia' of the time of Willibrord, Boniface and Charles 'the great' (at least of the Medieval sources!) mostly has to be placed in the Calais area (as Delahaye proved), this cannot be true for the times described in the OLB.

In the OLB the 'Flymar' (Fly-lake) plays a central role, surounded by west-, east- and south-Flyland.

Near the mouth of the Fly (river between the Fly-lake and the sea), 'Almanland' and 'Wyringga' were located (p.83-85/59-60).

'Mêdêasblik' and 'Stâvora' were located at the Flymar (p.119/85).

I believe after all that the nowaday island 'Texel' used to be Frya's 'Texland', but in that time it used to be connected to Wyringga and Westflyland. Before 305 BC it also had land connected to it northwards.

This also means that present 'Den Burg' is probably built on what used to be 'old Fryasburg'.

I am preparing a better analysis of OLB's topography, but wanted to share something for now:

[Ottema & Sandbach p.159-161/ original p.115-117]

From the writings of

Frêthorik Oera-Linda, Asga to Ljudwardja,

about the big flood of 305 BC (see map):

post-106727-0-17521600-1300556455_thumb.

Anna Wolfamônath lêidon tha Dênemarka fon Fryas lând vnder-ne sê bidobben.

Tha walda thêr bylda in wêron, wrdon vphyvath ånd thêr windum spel.

Thet jêr åfter kêm frost inna Herdemônath

ånd lêid ôld Fryas lând vnder en plônke skul.

In de Wolvenmaand (wintermaand) lagen de lage marken van Fryasland onder de zee bedolven.

De wouden, daar beelden in waren, werden opgeheven en een spel der winden.

Het jaar daarop kwam vorst in de Hardemaand (louwmaand)

en legde oud Fryasland onder een plank (ijsveld) verscholen.

In the Welvenmaand (winter month [dec.]) the low lands of Fryasland were buried under the sea.

The woods in which the images were, were torn up and scattered by the wind.

The following year the frost came in the Hardemaand (Louwmaand, January),

and laid [old] Fryasland concealed under a sheet of ice.

This means that "Dênemarka", mostly translated as "Denmark", can also refer to "low marks" or "low lands".

The term probably referred to all the flat and low lands between Calais and Jutland.

[ottema/Sanbach p.69/ original p.48]

Alle strând ånd skor hêmar fon-a Dênemarka alont thêre Såndfal nw Skelda

wrdon Stjurar, Sêkåmpar ånd Angelara hêton.

Alle strand en kustbewoners van de Denemarken af tot aan de Sandval, nu Schelde,

werden Stuurlieden, Zeekampers en Angelaren geheeten.

All those who lived [on beaches and shores] between Denmark and the Sandval, now the Scheldt,

were called Stuurlieden (pilots), Zeekampers (naval men), and Angelaren (fishermen).

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I believe after all that the nowaday island 'Texel' used to be Frya's 'Texland', but in that time it used to be connected to Wyringga and Westflyland. Before 305 BC it also had land connected to it northwards.

I also believe that Texandria/ Taxandria/ Toxandria (?) and "textile" are named after Texland.

And what about Thessaloniki (Θεσσαλονίκη)?

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I have come to the conclusion that mr. Vandemaele is wrong about (most of) his topography of the OLB.

Although it may be right that the 'Frisia' of the time of Willibrord, Boniface and Charles 'the great' (at least of the Medieval sources!) mostly has to be placed in the Calais area (as Delahaye proved), this cannot be true for the times described in the OLB.

In the OLB the 'Flymar' (Fly-lake) plays a central role, surounded by west-, east- and south-Flyland.

Near the mouth of the Fly (river between the Fly-lake and the sea), 'Almanland' and 'Wyringga' were located (p.83-85/59-60).

'Mêdêasblik' and 'Stâvora' were located at the Flymar (p.119/85).

I believe after all that the nowaday island 'Texel' used to be Frya's 'Texland', but in that time it used to be connected to Wyringga and Westflyland. Before 305 BC it also had land connected to it northwards.

This also means that present 'Den Burg' is probably built on what used to be 'old Fryasburg'.

I am preparing a better analysis of OLB's topography, but wanted to share something for now:

[Ottema & Sandbach p.159-161/ original p.115-117]

From the writings of

Frêthorik Oera-Linda, Asga to Ljudwardja,

about the big flood of 305 BC (see map):

post-106727-0-17521600-1300556455_thumb.

Anna Wolfamônath lêidon tha Dênemarka fon Fryas lând vnder-ne sê bidobben.

Tha walda thêr bylda in wêron, wrdon vphyvath ånd thêr windum spel.

Thet jêr åfter kêm frost inna Herdemônath

ånd lêid ôld Fryas lând vnder en plônke skul.

In de Wolvenmaand (wintermaand) lagen de lage marken van Fryasland onder de zee bedolven.

De wouden, daar beelden in waren, werden opgeheven en een spel der winden.

Het jaar daarop kwam vorst in de Hardemaand (louwmaand)

en legde oud Fryasland onder een plank (ijsveld) verscholen.

In the Welvenmaand (winter month [dec.]) the low lands of Fryasland were buried under the sea.

The woods in which the images were, were torn up and scattered by the wind.

The following year the frost came in the Hardemaand (Louwmaand, January),

and laid [old] Fryasland concealed under a sheet of ice.

This means that "Dênemarka", mostly translated as "Denmark", can also refer to "low marks" or "low lands".

The term probably referred to all the flat and low lands between Calais and Jutland.

Otharus, the map you posted (I guess it's from the book you just read) is based on an outdated theory, the Dunkirk Transgressions:

For general information (in Dutch):

http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duinkerke-transgressies

For more specific (and scientific) information (again, in Dutch):

http://www.stedengeschiedenis.nl/Downloads/WG/TWG2005_048-058.pdf

So although it's a nice map, it does not represent the real situation back then.

====

About Texel: archeologists have found proof of habitation from 900 BC and onwards. But no circular structure with remnants of a brick tower and brick houses around it, or anything grand and spectacular.

They DID find a circular stucture in Den Burg, but it was a ringwall, dating from medieval times:

Het bureauonderzoek naar de fysieke gaafheid met betrekking tot het centrum van Den Burg en in het

bijzonder het plangebied ‘Ruimte voor het Hart’ heeft het volgende opgeleverd.

Op basis van 34 indexpunten, die zijn gedestilleerd uit het archeologische onderzoek in de afgelopen

decennia, is een eerste indruk ontstaan van de opbouw van het centrumgebied.

In de opbouw kunnen grofweg vier lagen worden onderscheiden. De eerste, bovenste laag betreft de recent

verstoorde toplaag die in dikte varieert van 0,4 tot 2,00 m. Tussen de toplaag en de bodemkant van de

diepst gelegen laag 4 (dekzand met bewoningssporen uit de prehistorie en later), liggen laag 2 en 3 die

respectievelijk ophogingslagen en sporen bevatten uit de Late Middeleeuwen en de Vroege Middeleeuwen.

Tot laag 2 hoort specifiek de laat-middeleeuwse omgrachting uit 1346. Tot laag 3 behoort specifiek de

vroeg-middeleeuwse ringwal, die grotendeels binnen de omgrachting van 1346 is gelegen. Door de

wisselende dikte van laag 2 en van laag 3 is het niet goed mogelijk een dikte voor beide lagen aan te geven.

Beide pakketten zijn tezamen zo’n 1 tot 1,5 m dik.

http://www.texel.nl/document.php?fileid=6943&m=1&f=1237e77c862cb408a974927862bca927&attachment=0&c=5907

("vroeg-middeleeuwse ringwal" is 'early medieval ringwall')

Edited by Abramelin

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I also believe that Texandria/ Taxandria/ Toxandria (?) and "textile" are named after Texland.

And what about Thessaloniki (Θεσσαλονίκη)?

Heh, you should have added that Texel is also spelled/pronounced as "Tessel".

But are you suggesting that people from 'Texland' (or Tessel-land) went to what was later to be known as Thessaloniki??

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Yeah, you are right, and I should have known... here in the Netherlands we say "sinaasappel", which is nothing more or less than "Chinese apple", lol.

Well, if you find a better example of a typical Mediterranean plant/tree/shrub/herb, please tell.

Hard to think of any offhand.

Wiki again list several in the fruits article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_culinary_fruits

But most of those are either believed again to be imports or mainly from the eastern/south-eastern med.

However...

I haven't followed this thread for while now, but are you familiar with Brian Fagan's books,

The Little Ice Age: How Climate Made History, 1300–1850,

and it's sequels,

The Long Summer: How Climate Changed Civilization

and

The Great Warming: Climate Change and the Rise and Fall of Civilizations?

From a review on the latter:

"In the 12th and 13th centuries England exported wine to France. Vineyards also flourished in improbable regions like southern Norway and eastern Prussia. A centuries-long spell of mild, predictable weather blessed Western Europe with abundant crops, healthy populations and budget surpluses sufficient to finance projects like Chartres Cathedral." Cite

Contrast that with the first book:

"Until the onset of the Little Ice Age, the Icelanders also grew a hardy strain of barley in the north, south, and southeast of their homeland. However, the farmers had abandoned barley cultivation in the north by the end of the twelfth century. By the fifteenth century, no one grew cereal crops. Despite occasional experiments, barley did not return for eight centuries." Cite

Sound familiar?

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Hard to think of any offhand.

Wiki again list several in the fruits article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_culinary_fruits

But most of those are either believed again to be imports or mainly from the eastern/south-eastern med.

However...

I haven't followed this thread for while now, but are you familiar with Brian Fagan's books,

The Little Ice Age: How Climate Made History, 1300–1850,

and it's sequels,

The Long Summer: How Climate Changed Civilization

and

The Great Warming: Climate Change and the Rise and Fall of Civilizations?

From a review on the latter:

"In the 12th and 13th centuries England exported wine to France. Vineyards also flourished in improbable regions like southern Norway and eastern Prussia. A centuries-long spell of mild, predictable weather blessed Western Europe with abundant crops, healthy populations and budget surpluses sufficient to finance projects like Chartres Cathedral." Cite

Contrast that with the first book:

"Until the onset of the Little Ice Age, the Icelanders also grew a hardy strain of barley in the north, south, and southeast of their homeland. However, the farmers had abandoned barley cultivation in the north by the end of the twelfth century. By the fifteenth century, no one grew cereal crops. Despite occasional experiments, barley did not return for eight centuries." Cite

Sound familiar?

Sounds familiar, and I expected someone to come up with vineyards and grapes, but they are not specific to the Mediterannean. Some plants not only need a warmer climate, but they also need more daylight hours, and they won't get those here up north. But they would have had those hours if the tilt of earth's axis had indeed been different before 2200 BC.

Believe me, if - for example - olive trees could grow here, we would grow them here.. The Dutch love Italian food, heh,

The south-west of The Netherlands is covered with green-houses, we grow anything (sub)tropical we can there, but have you ever heard of Dutch olives??

Maybe you will find an occasional olive tree in a 'hortus botanicus' of a university (Leiden University, for instance), but you will NEVER find an olive tree orchard here, lol. We wish, sure...

--

EDIT:

I found a wiki page about typical Med trees:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Trees_of_Mediterranean_climate

But it's about trees growing the world over.

Some will grow in our climate, but most of them have to be tended like babies.

To be clear: we didn't have forests or orchards filled with these trees before 2200 BC.

(as I have said many times: editing a post on this site is a real pain....sigh)

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Sounds familiar, and I expected someone to come up with vineyards and grapes, but they are not specific to the Mediterannean. Some plants not only need a warmer climate, but they also need more daylight hours, and they won't get those here up north. But they would have had those hours if the tilt of earth's axis has indeed been different before 2200 BC.

Believe me, if - for example - olive trees could grow here, we would grow them here..

The south-west of The Netherlands is covered with green-houses, we grow anything (sub)tropical we can there, but have you ever heard of Dutch olives??

--

EDIT:

I found a wiki page about typical Med trees:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Trees_of_Mediterranean_climate

But it's about trees growing the world over.

Some will grow in our climate, but most of them have to be tended like babies.

To be clear: we didn't have forests or orchards filled with these trees before 2200 BC.

(as I have said many times: editing a post in this site is a real pain....sigh)

.

Exactly. More importantly though, as my intent was to point out, we do have an agricultural scenario just as described in the OLB taking place just a few hundred years before it came to light. Certain crops, formerly abundant in the north, no longer able to be produced in sufficient quantity in those regions, if at all, even matching those few named in the OLB.

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Exactly. More importantly though, as my intent was to point out, we do have an agricultural scenario just as described in the OLB taking place just a few hundred years before it came to light. Certain crops, formerly abundant in the north, no longer able to be produced in sufficient quantity in those regions, if at all, even matching those few named in the OLB.

Well, what are you waiting for??? Tell us what you found, please.

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Well, what are you waiting for??? Tell us what you found, please.

Man, that dutch liqueur must be killer stuff.

From my earlier post:

"Until the onset of the Little Ice Age, the Icelanders also grew a hardy strain of barley in the north, south, and southeast of their homeland. However, the farmers had abandoned barley cultivation in the north by the end of the twelfth century. By the fifteenth century, no one grew cereal crops. Despite occasional experiments, barley did not return for eight centuries."

From the same source:

"By the beginning of the fifteenth century, most northern European farmers had abandoned wheat cultivation altogether. Wheat was a tricky crop at the best of times in the north, requiring constant tilling, frequent and careful manuring, and meticulous rotation from field to field. English visitors to a Danish wedding in 1406 commented on the widely sodden ground and lack of wheat fields. In Norway, where the cold weather and plague had reduced the population by two-thirds over the preceding century, upland farms lay deserted. By the 1430s many district tax yields had fallen to one-quarter of their level in 1300. Many poor families ate rye bread, which, a French doctor wrote in 1702, "is not as nourishing as wheat and loosens the bowels a little." However, the bread crops never created abundance. Farmers ate beans and peas and made flour from buckwheat or chestnuts. Cattle were as important as cereal crops, for they provided meat and milk as well as manure. But the farmers were caught in a vicious circle, for they needed animals to draw plows and to fertilize the soil. Their beasts in turn required more grazing land at the expense of cul­tivated fields. A fourteenth‑century almanac adjured the farmer to "multiply his livestock for it is this which will give the land the ma­nure that produces rich harvests." Nor did crops like barley, oats, and rye produce higher crop yields. The plants choked one another. From the fourteenth to the eighteenth century, Europe's peasants subsisted on coarse soups and gruels, as they had in prehistoric times."

Now from the OLB:

Before the bad time came our country was the most beautiful in the world. The sun rose higher, and there was seldom frost. The trees and shrubs produced various fruits, which are now lost. In the fields we had not only barley, oats, and rye, but wheat which shone like gold, and which could be baked in the sun’s rays. The years were not counted, for one was as happy as another.
Edited by Oniomancer

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It's wine I am drinking.

But you must be on meth, lol.

Just kidding.

I asked you - and everyone here - about somekind of proof of herbs / trees / shrubs / plants that are TYPICAL for the Mediterranean area.

Before the bad time came our country was the most beautiful in the world. The sun rose higher, and there was seldom frost. The trees and shrubs produced various fruits, which are now lost. In the fields we had not only barley, oats, and rye, but wheat which shone like gold, and which could be baked in the sun’s rays. The years were not counted, for one was as happy as another.

From what I quoted (from YOU) I understand, no Mediterranean herbs/plants/shrubs/trees were grown in Frya's Empire back then?

But if the earth's axis had a different tilt before 2200 BC, then all the plants I mentioned before must have been abundent back then, right?

Oniomancer, you are just busy proving my point, lol. But maybe I distracted you be saying - repeately - that I loved the OLB to be true.

I am very convinced it is a hoax/fabulation, but it sure got my interest, and that for many years.

==

And my ex just now ( living a few floors above me ) invited me to have a bite with her friends.

So I will be away for a while.

I am a bachelor, and an easy meal is what we want.

Bye, and have a good time here.

Man, I'm hungry.

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It's wine I am drinking.

But you must be on meth, lol.

Just kidding.

I asked you - and everyone here - about somekind of proof of herbs / trees / shrubs / plants that are TYPICAL for the Mediterranean area.

From what I quoted (from YOU) I understand, no Mediterranean herbs/plants/shrubs/trees were grown in Frya's Empire back then?

But if the earth's axis had a different tilt before 2200 BC, then all the plants I mentioned before must have been abundent back then, right?

Oniomancer, you are just busy proving my point, lol. But maybe I distracted you be saying - repeately - that I loved the OLB to be true.

Yes, that's what I've been doing. I'm on your side, remember? I think my switching from listing fruits to explaining away the other "lost" produce in the middle of a post has confused you. (Edit: and my shooting you down on the oranges.)

That or the wine. Let's just say I hope your lady friend is driving. ;)

(Edit again: okay, I see what threw you off. You missed what I meant when I mentioned it was an actual recent historical event rather than in the timeframe of the OLB.)

Edited by Oniomancer

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Yes, that's what I've been doing. I'm on your side, remember? I think my switching from listing fruits to explaining away the other "lost" produce in the middle of a post has confused you.

That or the wine. Let's just say I hope your lady friend is driving. ;)

Not trying to stir up trouble but there is no need to take sides here. Things are moving along quite nicely without a lot of mud slinging. Keep it up lads I'm very interested to see how things work out.

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Yes, that's what I've been doing. I'm on your side, remember? I think my switching from listing fruits to explaining away the other "lost" produce in the middle of a post has confused you. (Edit: and my shooting you down on the oranges.)

That or the wine. Let's just say I hope your lady friend is driving. ;)

I am back again.

I went to her neighbourr, I eat what he offered me, then she said "Why are you eating before everyone else??

So I said, 'it was your neigbour who offered me his food when I entered, and so I started eating".

But I lost my appetite after hwer yelling, and II left after a few bites of the beans hr neighbour offered me.

All that took me like 20 minutes.

If you want to experience Hell, than make sure your drunk ex is living close to you...

I really WISH I had the money to move to another house, BELIEVE ME..

Some wil. wonder why I spend so much time on this site.

I tell you all: its either this or death.

This site is a great saver of lives. Without it, many would have no drive to stay alive.

Blaah.

,

Edited by Abramelin

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From the writings of

Frêthorik Oera-Linda, Asga to Ljudwardja,

about the big flood of 305 BC (see map):

post-106727-0-17521600-1300556455_thumb.

I forgot to mention that the map was taken from the very good website (in the Dutch language) http://www.brucop.com/millennium/nederlands/toponyms/, by Dr.W.Bruijnesteijn van Coppenraet.

Here's some relant translations, with some notes by me between [...]:

"According to the usual theory, Frisia in the time of the Roman occupation was roughly the present Netherlands north of the old Rhinestream (the limes). Climatologically it was a regression period and a huge sweetwaterlake, Flevo or Almere [in OLB: "Flymar"], was in the center. After the Romans left (ca.250 AD), and without doubt related to the increasing transgression, that wasted much of their lands, the Frisians moved their territtory more to the inlands: southwards with Zeeland and the river area [and Flandres?], east to the Weser (East-Friesland) and later (8th century even up to Sleeswijk. (...) Neighbours were south the Franks and east the Saxons. The Frisians also founded a colony in Brittania, Northumberland, from where in the 7th and 8th century missionaries came to their old lands [mostly to Flandres?]. The Franks always hated the Frisians. Already ca. 574 the Frankish king Chilperik I was praised for his terror against the Frisians:

You are the terror of the far Frisians and Suevans,

who are not only unprepared for war,

but even ask for your protection.

(...)

The assumption that Utrecht already existed in the period 600-640 and was temporary in Frankish hands is based on quicksand. In 697 Frisia started to finally really fall apart and Frisia citerior, the southern part up to the Rhine, was taken by the Frankish Pepin II. Ca. 719 his successor Karel Martel crossed the old limes en marched up to the Almere. In 736 the same Karel Martel attacked the Frisians in the back with a fleet and by winning the "Borne battle" he occupied the area up to the Eems river. The remaining eastern area, already disintegrated and taken over by the Saxons, finally was taken by the Franks, together with all of the Saxon lands, between 770 and 800 by Charles 'the great'. The terms Frisia and Frisii remained in use, but now as a Christian people, submitted under Frankish rule. After a period of invasions by the Normans [attempts to free the Frisians?], the whole area of the Frisians, from Walcheren to Eems, was part of the "Imperium Danicum", the empire of the Vikings, during the second half of the 9th century, but this was under supervision of the Frankish emperor.

(...)

The highly indoctrinating traditional science, that has evolved from the primitive historiography of the late Middle Ages, often gives an unsatisfying view on the geography of our lands in the first millennium. At the other side, the vision of Albert Delahaye, who radically moved the geography to North France, is also far from satisfying. A "semi-traditional" view, that accepts that Delahaye went too far with his revision of the historical geography, but that also accepts that the Nether-lands in that area was subject to heavy transgressions and therefore mostly flooded, at least climatologically not habitable, is presented in publications by Kreijns and Pirson, Van Veen and Bruijnesteijn v.C."

More to come.

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Otharus, the map you posted (I guess it's from the book you just read) is based on an outdated theory, the Dunkirk Transgressions:

For general information (in Dutch):

http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duinkerke-transgressies

For more specific (and scientific) information (again, in Dutch):

http://www.stedengeschiedenis.nl/Downloads/WG/TWG2005_048-058.pdf

So although it's a nice map, it does not represent the real situation back then.

The map shows in blue what would be flooded now if there were no dykes, the green areas are flooded with a +5 m flood and the yellow areas with a +10 m flood.

I used it not in relation to the transgression theory, that is under debate (Wiki also says OLB is a hoax, so it's not a neutral source), but to give an idea of what the area may have looked like during the 305 BC flood.

About Texel: archeologists have found proof of habitation from 900 BC and onwards. (...)

(...) Tussen de toplaag en de bodemkant van de diepst gelegen laag 4 (dekzand met bewoningssporen uit de prehistorie en later), liggen laag 2 en 3 die respectievelijk ophogingslagen en sporen bevatten uit de Late Middeleeuwen en de Vroege Middeleeuwen. (...)

The survey was made for (and paid for by) the local government of Texel, that wanted to build something new (as far as I understand). Their goal was not to find remains. But I'll have a look at the report.

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Heh, you should have added that Texel is also spelled/pronounced as "Tessel".

That is correct, thanks for adding that. I often forget to mention what is obvious (to me).

But are you suggesting that people from 'Texland' (or Tessel-land) went to what was later to be known as Thessaloniki??

Well, according to OLB people from old-Frisia (that had old Fryasburg on Texland as their 'capital') went to that area and founded Athena.

If that is true, it's easy to imagine that many names from the old area would be re-used in what is now Greece. Same goes for other colonies, like North-east India. Vandemaele's book has many nice examples. I will make a post with some of my favorites.

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For more specific (and scientific) information (again, in Dutch):

http://www.stedengeschiedenis.nl/Downloads/WG/TWG2005_048-058.pdf

From this article ("Het fysisch-geografisch onderzoek en de ontstaansgeschiedenis van westelijk Zeeuws-Vlaanderen: een status quaestionis" by Geuch de Boer):

"During the Roman occupation, the 'Suevo-Flemmish' (Zeeuws-Vlaamse) coastal area consisted of a wide bog-marsh [* see note], but within only a few centuries, it was transformed into an utterly dynamic 'shore-area' with 'slicks', plateaus and active streams where the sea could play freely. Up until a few decades ago, the cause of this was considered to be exclusively natural - change of climate, increase of the frequency of storms, increase of the relative sea level - but nowadays it becomes ever more clear that the inhabitants of the coastal plains, from the Roman times on, have had a major influence on the developments of the landscape."

[* Note: up until the early 20th century, this "bog" was dried to serve as fuel.

Bog is organic material, which means it must have been the remains of a long period of forested land?]

In other words; the increasing floods were mostly a result of the use (or abuse?) of the land by people.

This may have been the case for the whole of what is now the Netherlands.

(Even the use of gas (as fuel) from the bubble under our earth, may result (or have resulted) in sinking of the land...)

So, whether it is called transgressions or differently, fact is that after the Roman occupation, a few hundred years of big floods followed, until our ancestors started to build dykes and litterally "reclaim" land.

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But are you suggesting that people from 'Texland' (or Tessel-land) went to what was later to be known as Thessaloniki??

More on Texel and its varieties:

Vandemaele p.58:

"... Texland of Texalia, het huidige Escalles bij Calais, volgens Ptolomeus himself Tecelia geheten, ten noorden van Boulogne."

translated:

"... Texland of Texalia, nowaday Escalles near Calais, according to Ptolomeus himself called Tecelia, north of Boulogne."

Dr.Bruijnesteijn made a reconstructive map, using the estimated coordinates by Ptolomeus. See added fragment.

post-106727-0-23575600-1300606718_thumb.

He places Ptolomeus' Tecalia near the mouth of the Wisurgis (Weser or OLB's Wrsara).

Which one is right? Or both? Or none?

It all seems possible with the many migrations that have taken place.

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[bog is organic material, which means it must have been the remains of a long period of forested land?] /]

Otharus I was thinking more likely peat (bog) dried out and cut in the traditional way with wooden spades.

I don't know what's happening today but I can't drag anything over to paste here. Still google peat cutting pictures you'll get a full list and items pertaining to peat bog management.

Edited by Flashbangwollap

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About the argument that something should have been found by archaeology.

In the Westfrisian village where I was born and raised, Wijdenes, the Hollandic count Floris V had a castle built after he had finally conquered the Westfrisians in the late 13th century.

According to oral tradition, it would have been built on the remains of an earlier 'castle' from the Danish or viking founder of the village Roelof, Roeland or Rodulf (etc.).

The coat of arms of Wijdenes/ Wydenes/ Wyns/ Venes/ Wienesse/ Vornes (etc.) still has a (chess game style) tower as a reminder of this time.

Wijdenes.hag.jpg

There are theories that (part of) the village used to be located in what is now the Markermeer (earlier: Zuiderzee, resp. IJsselmeer).

There has been a lot of searching for remains or foundations of this 13th century castle (-700 BP), but nothing significant has been found yet. Yet, there is no doubt that is once existed.

Therefore, I am not so surprised that nothing has been found yet, of the era -4200 till -2000 BP.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mvHNaLEg5o

Edited by Otharus

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The more I read about the Netherlands and it's water / lowland management the more I see very strong ties with Norfolk and Suffolk.

The Wash area has been reclaimed over the centuries making a landscape very similar to that in Holland.

Sorry about the PDF but it has a quickview if you don't want to download it.

http://www.environmentalgraffiti.com/news-giethoorn-village-no-roads

http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~jimella/norfolk.htm

www.eaareports.org.uk/Assessment%20Neo-Bronze%20Age.pdf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Norfolk#Bronze_Age

Abe I realise a lot of this has likely been posted before but as a refresher I feel it's okay.

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About the argument that something should have been found by archaeology.

In the Westfrisian village where I was born and raised, Wijdenes, the Hollandic count Floris V had a castle built after he had finally conquered the Westfrisians in the late 13th century.

According to oral tradition, it would have been built on the remains of an earlier 'castle' from the Danish or viking founder of the village Roelof, Roeland or Rodulf (etc.).

The coat of arms of Wijdenes/ Wydenes/ Wyns/ Venes/ Wienesse/ Vornes (etc.) still has a (chess game style) tower as a reminder of this time.

Wijdenes.hag.jpg

There are theories that (part of) the village used to be located in what is now the Markermeer (earlier: Zuiderzee, resp. IJsselmeer).

There has been a lot of searching for remains or foundations of this 13th century castle (-700 BP), but nothing significant has been found yet. Yet, there is no doubt that is once existed.

Therefore, I am not so surprised that nothing has been found yet, of the era -4200 till -2000 BP.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mvHNaLEg5o

Well, from what I read divers did find something:

"Op deze plek, op de bodem van het Markermeer, zijn door een duikploeg, bakstenen (kloostermoppen) gevonden, waarvan in de middeleeuwen ook kastelen werden gebouwd."

"At this place, on the bottom of the Markermeer, a team of divers found brick stones ("kloostermoppen") with which also castles were built during the middle ages."

http://home.planet.nl/~dijkh287/kastelen/wijdenes/opmerk2a.htm

On the other hand, it might be a wild goose chase because the whole story may be nothing but a folk story, or legend. http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wijdenes

=

You said:

"Therefore, I am not so surprised that nothing has been found yet, of the era -4200 till -2000 BP."

I am, because we find traces of very ancient habitation everywhere here in the Netherlands.

I live close to Ypenburg, Zuidholland, and not that long ago they found skeletons and tree trunks dating from 3000 BC. (Google 'Ypje van Rijswijk' ).

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More on Texel and its varieties:

Vandemaele p.58:

"... Texland of Texalia, het huidige Escalles bij Calais, volgens Ptolomeus himself Tecelia geheten, ten noorden van Boulogne."

translated:

"... Texland of Texalia, nowaday Escalles near Calais, according to Ptolomeus himself called Tecelia, north of Boulogne."

Dr.Bruijnesteijn made a reconstructive map, using the estimated coordinates by Ptolomeus. See added fragment.

post-106727-0-23575600-1300606718_thumb.

He places Ptolomeus' Tecalia near the mouth of the Wisurgis (Weser or OLB's Wrsara).

Which one is right? Or both? Or none?

It all seems possible with the many migrations that have taken place.

I have read about Bruijnesteijn's map here: http://www.brucop.com/millennium/nederlands/ptolemeus/

What amazes me is that he assumes Ptolemy based his map of The Netherlands on the situation during a transgression fase, but on the other hand totally ignores that Denmark was rotated clockwise on Ptolemy's map.

10.gif

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Gazetteer/Periods/Roman/_Texts/Ptolemy/2/10/home.html

Or take a look at a larger (and older) map that includes Sweden:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ptolemaios_1467_Scandinavia.jpg

.. and then look at (southern) Sweden: Ptolemy thinks it's an island... ok.

A quote from the original text by Tacitus:

"And these cities are placed throughout Germany in the northern climate: Phleum, Siatutanda, Tecelia, Fabiranum, Treva, Leufana, Lirimiris, Marionis, another Marionis, Coenoënum, Cistuia, Alisus, Laciburgium, Bunitium, Virunum, Viritium, Rugium, Scurgum, Ascaucalis."

http://www.textexcavation.com/tacitustestimonium.html

According to a document in archive.org Tecelia could be the German city of Tecklenburg. http://www.archive.org/stream/systemofgeograph04play/systemofgeograph04play_djvu.txt

.

Edited by Abramelin

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TOPOGRAPHY OF THE O.L.B. ~ part 1: SKÊNLAND

...

GODA BURCH (SKÊNLAND) = GÖTEBORG (SWEDEN/ SVERIGE)

...

LINDASBURCH(T) / LINDASNÔSE (WEST-SKÊNLAND) = LINDESNES (NORWAY/ NORGE)

...

Missed yet another interesting reference to SKÊNLAND (Scandinavia).

Probably (the area of) Uppsala in Sweden is meant:

[Ottema&Sandbach p.6/ original p.3]

Men sin ljuda dêdon mâr:

bern wrdon to sok makad,

nei vpsalândum wêibrocht,

ånd sâhwersa hja vpbrocht wêron an sina vvla lêr,

thån wrdon hja to bek sendon.

Maar zijne lieden deden meer;

kinderen werden te zoek gemaakt,

naar de bovenlanden weggevoerd,

en nadat zij opgevoed waren in zijne verderfelijke leer,

dan werden zij terug gezonden.

His people did even more.

Children disappeared,

were taken away to the uplands,

and after they had been brought up in his pernicious doctrines,

were sent back.

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