[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood

[Abramelin]

I am Dutch and I have examined a copy of the Oera Linda book about seven to ten years ago and I concluded that it was a fraud.

Yeah, you tell me, but there are many who won't buy that.

So here I am (as another Dutch guy) busy filling the pages with what I'd like to call 'sawing down the tree at the bottom'.

[SlimJim22]

Yeah, you tell me, but there are many who won't buy that.

So here I am (as another Dutch guy) busy filling the pages with what I'd like to call 'sawing down the tree at the bottom'.

You and Puzzler have certainly chopped a trees worth of pages today. Hard to keep up but as usual I've taken a slight detour. I am looking at an alternative to an impact for the 2,193bce date and what has come up is a 'plasmoid'. No I hadn't heard of it before either but the image I am getting is a gigantic CME that affects the planetary bodies in such a way that they may eject electric charges at earth. Ok, so I know few people respect the electric universe theory but here are a couple of links drawing parallels with mythological images and how this could be attributed to unsual celestial activity.

2,193bce would correspond to one date and also 747bce as another of major significance. Another point of evidence is the bolt of lighting carried by Zeus and it's suggested this refers to an ejection from Jupiter. I know it's hard to believe with the huge distances between the planets but scan through the links and see if anything resonates.

http://www.grazian-archive.net/quantavolution/vol_03/chaos_creation_09.htm

http://saturniancosmology.org/quet.php

I know the Plasma Universe theory is out of date and has been debunked several times but thought it was worth a mention.

P.S Abe did you draw my attention to something. I couldn't find what you meant. Care to direct me?

[Abramelin]

I promised Puzzler a little surprise. Well, here it is.

The Finda lived in Aldland/Atland (their homeland) until it submerged. I also mentioned the OLB Kashmir of which is said it lay in the center of the area occupied by the Finda (after the deluge). Then the origin of the OLB "Egyptians" (= Gypsies, the ones from 'Egiptaland') in the Punjab. Then a name many European Gypsies use for themselves: Sinte/Sinti/Sinta >> shift from -s- to -f- ( for centuries the -f- stood for both -s- and -f-) >> Finda. Then.. according to themselves, and nowadays also by others, the origin of their name, Sinti/e/a... is 'Sindh', or better India.

Now something concerning Biblical affairs and the date of the deluge, read this post again:

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=184645&view=findpost&p=3468769

Also remember what someone like a Jensma (but also others before him) said about the true reason of fabricating this manuscript (==> Religion/ religious people / how easy it is to create a religion).

So, you'd expect something Biblical would have gotten into the OLB, right? OK, the easy thing is of course the appearence on the stage of someone with a name similar to Jesus, 'Jes' or Jesos something. That was easy.

Now, just imagine where many people (also in the 19th century) imagined where the true location of (the Garden of) Eden, Paradise, was. Many assumed it was somewhere in the east of Mesopotamia. Let's call that Biblical first land, our land of origin... Old land...

Now keep that in mind, and then read this:

From the OLB:

Here is my Counsel

Punjab, that is five rivers, and by which we travel, is a river of extraordinary beauty, and is called Five Rivers, because four other streams flow into the sea by its mouth. Far away to the eastward is another large river, the Holy or Sacred Ganges. Between these two rivers is the land of the Hindoos. Both rivers run from the high mountains to the plains. The mountains in which their sources lie are so high that they reach the heavens (laia), and therefore these mountains are called Himmellaia. Among the Hindoos and others out of these countries there are people who meet together secretly. They believe that they are pure children of Finda, and that Finda was born in the Himmellaia mountains, whence she went with her children to the lowlands. Some of them believe that she, with her children, floated down upon the foam of the Ganges, and that that is the reason why the river is called the Sacred Ganges. But the priests, who came from another country, traced out these people and had them burnt,..

http://www.sacred-texts.com/atl/olb/olb49.htm

(btw, you see the ridiculous wordplay? Himalaya >> Himmellaia >> Himmel laia. Himmel/Hemel = heaven in German/Dutch)

Ok, so these people thought they were 'pure' Finda who had come from the Himalaya, according to the quote of the OLB.

We all know the legends of Shangri-la and Shambala and what have we, a kingdom somewhere hidden away in the Himalaya mountains, some sort of mountain paradise.

But there's a problem here: the Biblical paradise was not known for it's high mountains were a man's nuts would freeze off during a blizzard (Eve would not have had to stand back that far when she first met Adam...)

Some have thought of Tibet as that Shangri-La, but nah, not really a paradise, is it?

Then some Biblical scholars (and even in the 19th century) assumed the real paradise may have been in a large area beyond the Himalaya: the Tarim Basin.

Even then explorers noticed how perfectly level that huge plain was, that it was surrounded by high mountains, and that there were lots of areas with salt layers on the bottom.

The next rather logical step was thinking that it was the bottom of a huge and ancient inland sea.

And then.... there were those Bible enthousiasts who assumed that because of all these characteristics the Tarim Basin was the real place where the Biblical flood had taken place......

Something happened, the inland sea emptied (like a tilted bath tub) and created the Flood, with the waters gushing down in the direction of Mesopotamia.

Now, if the Finda's origins were there, then that is the place where we should look for the OLB Aldland/Atland, the 'Old Land', and not somewhere in the Atlantic or even the North sea because all those area don't fit what's been said about how and where the Finda lived.

The creators of the OLB wanted the orthodox-religiously inclined people (their victims) to go on a wild goose chase.

Of course everybody would think of Atlantis when they heard/read Aldland/Atland, and back then that was the Atlantic Ocean (now it's being located on every corner of this planet).

But let's be real: they didn't say 'Atlantis', they said 'Aldland', the Old Land.

Problem is, it submerged beneath the waves in 2193 BC according to the OLB, but it could not have been in the Atlantic, nor the North Sea. If it was in the Atlantic, what did the Finda people do? Travel to the other side of the planet, to - let's say - Mongolia or in that neighbourhood?

Seems unlikely.

Then we read that they lived east of Twiskland (Germany), and also near the Himalaya (Kashmir was at the center of their - new? - land).

So the Finda did flee Aldland, but that must have been somewhere in Asia.

Well, that drowned land, the Old Land, Aldland, the origin of the Finda people, the yellow skinned people with straight black hair, must then have been somewhere in that huge inland sea, now the Tarim Basin. Or maybe near where all the water poured out. Anyway, we need some volcanoes there too, if we want to keep following the OLB story. I don't know of any there.

An image from a Bible site about that area would do nice here:

http://www.ensignmessage.com/archives/deluge.html

OK, that was about it.

Need a drink now.

(Oh, and check the date of the Flood in that image: 2345 BC. Don't worry, that date is based on Biblical chronology, not scientific data)

.

Edited July 16, 2010 by Abramelin

[SlimJim22]

Here is a better excerpt.

In 2193 BC Venus passes Earth again, the last time in this era, and, as I noted in the previous chapter, both Akkad and the Old Kingdom of Egypt come to a close. There is very little else we hear from the eastern Mediterranean region, or nearly anywhere else, about this event, except for the failure of agriculture.

We have only very slim chronological data which point to what actually happened. The contact by Venus was not accompanied by impressive celestial events, and nothing was recorded in legends and stories, unlike the earlier contact of 2349 BC. What I believe happened in 2193 BC, is that Venus, made a compressive contact in (perhaps) the Pacific Ocean and produced a plasma arc which traveled around the world mostly through oceans, lifting stupendous clouds which remained overhead for years, reducing sunlight.

http://saturniancosmology.org/jup.php

On the Roma-Indian connection I found this:

It is surprising that in two documents which we know about now, the "Indian origin" of Roma is presented. One is in a chronicle of the Italian city of Forli from 1422: "Aliqui dicebant, quod erant de India" ("Some said that they are from India") (Muratori, Script. Rerum italica XIX, 8. Horváthová 1964).

The other document was pointed out to us by the chief rabbi of the Czech Republic, Mr. Karol Efraim Sidon. In Hebrew writing, the "Chronicle of the World" speaks of the events in 1602 when King Philip banished the Spanish kushim blacks. (Today's Roma in Spain are called Kale Blacks!)

"King Philip of Spain banished all kushim (blacks) who lived in his kingdom so they would travel to their land, India, the place where they were born, their ancient land. There were more than 200,000 of them. And he did it against their will. And most of them died of hunger along the way and many of them were killed by robbers." (Romano daniben 1-2/2000, pp. 6-7).

http://ling.kfunigraz.ac.at/~rombase/cgi-bin/art.cgi?src=data/hist/origin/origin.en.xml

I do like the idea of Eden in the Tarim Basin or elsewhere in the Himalayas. Don't know if this could be connected.

According to the Bonpo tradition, although Yungdrung Bon is eternal and without an ultimate beginning in time, it originated in the present kalpa or cycle of existence in the country of Olmo Lung-ring where Tonpa Shenrab descended from the celestial spheres and took up incarnation among human beings as an Iranian prince. The mysterious land of Olmo Lung-ring ('ol-mo lung-rings) or Olmoling ('ol-mo'i gling) is said to be part of a larger geographical region to the northwest of Tibet called Tazig (stag-gzig, var. rtag-gzigs), which scholars identify with Iran or, more properly, Central Asia where in ancient times Iranian languages such as Avestan and later Sogdian were spoken. According to the "gZer-mig" the traditional etymology of the name Olmo Lung-ring is as follows: '"ol" means "unborn", "mo" "undermined", "lung" "the prophetic words of Shenrab", and "rings" "everlasting compassion". According to the "gZi-brjid", Olmo Lung-ring was also known as Shambhala in Sanskrit and it continues to be known by this name among Tibetan Buddhists even today. Moreover, it is said that in ancient times it encompassed fully one-third of the known world a statement which could apply to the historical Persian empire.

Some modern scholars attempt to identify Olmo Lung-ring with the area around mount Kailas in West Tibet, anciently known as Zhang-zhung, and assert that the holy nine-storeyed mountain in the center of Olmoling is in fact Mount Kailas.

http://www.surajamrita.com/bon/Shambala.html

Does Roma correspond with Rama?

http://www.romani.org/rishi/retyrom.html

Really good link on plasma cosmology below.

http://www.plasmacosmology.net/tech2.html

Edited July 16, 2010 by SlimJim22

[Abramelin]

Here is a better excerpt.

In 2193 BC Venus passes Earth again, the last time in this era, and, as I noted in the previous chapter, both Akkad and the Old Kingdom of Egypt come to a close. There is very little else we hear from the eastern Mediterranean region, or nearly anywhere else, about this event, except for the failure of agriculture.

We have only very slim chronological data which point to what actually happened. The contact by Venus was not accompanied by impressive celestial events, and nothing was recorded in legends and stories, unlike the earlier contact of 2349 BC. What I believe happened in 2193 BC, is that Venus, made a compressive contact in (perhaps) the Pacific Ocean and produced a plasma arc which traveled around the world mostly through oceans, lifting stupendous clouds which remained overhead for years, reducing sunlight.

http://saturniancosmology.org/jup.php

On the Roma-Indian connection I found this:

It is surprising that in two documents which we know about now, the "Indian origin" of Roma is presented. One is in a chronicle of the Italian city of Forli from 1422: "Aliqui dicebant, quod erant de India" – ("Some said that they are from India") (Muratori, Script. Rerum italica XIX, 8. – Horváthová 1964).

The other document was pointed out to us by the chief rabbi of the Czech Republic, Mr. Karol Efraim Sidon. In Hebrew writing, the "Chronicle of the World" speaks of the events in 1602 when King Philip banished the Spanish kushim – blacks. (Today's Roma in Spain are called Kale – Blacks!)

"King Philip of Spain banished all kushim (blacks) who lived in his kingdom so they would travel to their land, India, the place where they were born, their ancient land. There were more than 200,000 of them. And he did it against their will. And most of them died of hunger along the way and many of them were killed by robbers." (Romano džaniben 1-2/2000, pp. 6-7).

http://ling.kfunigraz.ac.at/~rombase/cgi-bin/art.cgi?src=data/hist/origin/origin.en.xml

I do like the idea of Eden in the Tarim Basin or elsewhere in the Himalayas. Don't know if this could be connected.

According to the Bonpo tradition, although Yungdrung Bon is eternal and without an ultimate beginning in time, it originated in the present kalpa or cycle of existence in the country of Olmo Lung-ring where Tonpa Shenrab descended from the celestial spheres and took up incarnation among human beings as an Iranian prince. The mysterious land of Olmo Lung-ring ('ol-mo lung-rings) or Olmoling ('ol-mo'i gling) is said to be part of a larger geographical region to the northwest of Tibet called Tazig (stag-gzig, var. rtag-gzigs), which scholars identify with Iran or, more properly, Central Asia where in ancient times Iranian languages such as Avestan and later Sogdian were spoken. According to the "gZer-mig" the traditional etymology of the name Olmo Lung-ring is as follows: '"ol" means "unborn", "mo" "undermined", "lung" "the prophetic words of Shenrab", and "rings" "everlasting compassion". According to the "gZi-brjid", Olmo Lung-ring was also known as Shambhala in Sanskrit and it continues to be known by this name among Tibetan Buddhists even today. Moreover, it is said that in ancient times it encompassed fully one-third of the known world a statement which could apply to the historical Persian empire.

Some modern scholars attempt to identify Olmo Lung-ring with the area around mount Kailas in West Tibet, anciently known as Zhang-zhung, and assert that the holy nine-storeyed mountain in the center of Olmoling is in fact Mount Kailas.

http://www.surajamrita.com/bon/Shambala.html

Does Roma correspond with Rama?

http://www.romani.org/rishi/retyrom.html

Really good link on plasma cosmology below.

http://www.plasmacosmology.net/tech2.html

I think you can forget about Venus. It was Velikovsky who started this thing about Venus as comet, and that has been debunked for decennia now.

==

LOL, so the gypsies are also called 'blacks' (Kushim/Kale). They appear to fulfill every role in the OLB: Egyptians, Finda's people and now also Lydia's people !!

==

The reason I bring up the Biblical flood and that some 19th century guys placed it in/near the Tarin Basin is only to show what info was at hand to concoct their OLB manuscript.

They intentially wove Biblical/religious stuff into the fabric of their story.

As I said in THIS POST, according to 19th century Bible thumpers the Flood accurred at 2193 BC, and so this 'Atland' had to sink at that date.

Alas, according to the Jewish calendar the Flood accurred at 2104 BC – 2103 BC ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/22nd_century_BC ), and even later Christian Bible scholars put a different date for it: 2294 BC (http://members.tripod.com/lady_banshee/history_earth.htm ).

The only time the 2193 BC date comes up in connection with possible disasters, is this:

In 2193 BC, the comet Proto-Encke, converging with the comets Oljato and Hale-Bopp, again passed the earth and caused global seismic disturbances, enormous tsunamis and massive socio-cultural changes.

http://www.sacredsites.com/europe/sacred_geography.html

But where this person got that info from, I can't say...

I am pretty sure some people will leave out any reference to the OLB, and just search long enough till they find something near or on the right date. If this proto-Encke comet created all that mayhem, why can I not find it in any scientific document??

==

I did find something about the proto-Encke comet:

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1997CeMDA..69..149A

http://www.springerlink.com/content/g252683h4q15838g/

... but can you distill the date of 2193 BC out of that?? The comet appears to have had influence on the global climate, but much earlier than 2193 BC. How did the writer know that exact date of 2193 BC? The comet appears to have shifted in course, so how did he calculate that date so precisely?

This one I find interesting for other reasons (my own spiralling comet theory in the Doggerland thread), and scroll down:

http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc060897.html

,

Edited July 16, 2010 by Abramelin

[The Puzzler]

Personally, I think 2193BC is open to lots of cataclysms. 200 years, give and take is stuff all when you are speaking of anicent stories and unknown exact dates.

From 2200BC to 2000BC, whatever is in that 200 years could all be related to each other in the tellings of them. Everyone has had to backtrack in Christian years etc, very hard to really know when anything was actually, even though it seems very clear cut.

Back later to answer some stuff there but if you haven't, why don't you guys download CyberSky like I have (free download, free trial)and check the planetary alignments for 2193BC, Alweyn gave a date, I have to recheck it right now, and suss it out like I have been doing because there is some very interesting things going on in the sky, very close alignments and eclipses galore, I can't read it very good but I can see what I can see and can see it would have been interesting heavenly viewing.

Did anyone actually read any of the info I posted by Aristotle from Meteorology and what was classed as a comet to the ancients - a planetary alignment.

Combine these alignments and the climate change from 4.2ky event and there you have it, end of Old Kingdom, end of Akkad, flooding and the myths start to grow.

[The Puzzler]

I promised Puzzler a little surprise. Well, here it is.

lol Cool, I like surprises!

I think...

Sometimes, especially mornings when Ive had a late night spinning my brain in circles, I get confused or better still, don't quite comprende your point.

I never know if you are being sarcastic....

[The Puzzler]

You and Puzzler have certainly chopped a trees worth of pages today. Hard to keep up but as usual I've taken a slight detour. I am looking at an alternative to an impact for the 2,193bce date and what has come up is a 'plasmoid'. No I hadn't heard of it before either but the image I am getting is a gigantic CME that affects the planetary bodies in such a way that they may eject electric charges at earth. Ok, so I know few people respect the electric universe theory but here are a couple of links drawing parallels with mythological images and how this could be attributed to unsual celestial activity.

2,193bce would correspond to one date and also 747bce as another of major significance. Another point of evidence is the bolt of lighting carried by Zeus and it's suggested this refers to an ejection from Jupiter. I know it's hard to believe with the huge distances between the planets but scan through the links and see if anything resonates.

http://www.grazian-archive.net/quantavolution/vol_03/chaos_creation_09.htm

http://saturniancosmology.org/quet.php

I know the Plasma Universe theory is out of date and has been debunked several times but thought it was worth a mention.

P.S Abe did you draw my attention to something. I couldn't find what you meant. Care to direct me?

Hey yeah, the bolt of lightening thrown by Zeus does seem to indicate something...plasmoids, ok, will check it out more, in 2193BC you say? Interesting.

[kmt_sesh]

...

As I said in THIS POST, according to 19th century Bible thumpers the Flood accurred at 2193 BC, and so this 'Atland' had to sink at that date.

Alas, according to the Jewish calendar the Flood accurred at 2104 BC – 2103 BC ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/22nd_century_BC ), and even later Christian Bible scholars put a different date for it: 2294 BC (http://members.tripod.com/lady_banshee/history_earth.htm ).

The only time the 2193 BC date comes up in connection with possible disasters, is this:

In 2193 BC, the comet Proto-Encke, converging with the comets Oljato and Hale-Bopp, again passed the earth and caused global seismic disturbances, enormous tsunamis and massive socio-cultural changes.

I haven't been participating in this discussion but have been peeking in now and then. I don't think anyone noticed me spying on all of you. In any case, Abramelin, you've been doing a terrific job bringing logic and reason to what is clearly a bunch of fraudulent twaddle in the Oera Linda Book. I had known very little about the OLB until this discussion kicked off, and I can see how people of the past may have been fooled by it but I can't fathom why anyone nowadays would take it seriously.

I probably don't have much to add to the discussion, but I was reading about the conjectures for the placing of the biblical flood. The Roman Catholic Church of the 19th century was dead fixed on dating the flood to the 22nd century BCE, and tolerated no dissension whatsoever. In his decipherment of hieroglyphs Jean-Francois Champollion had the Church's britches in a bunch because they were worried his work would disprove their chronology of events.

Anyway, I was chuckling over the years and events you posted because I was reminded of a documentary I saw some time ago in which scientists were probing for reasons behind the collapse of Near Eastern civilizations in this same time period, especially the Akkadians and Egyptians. The Egyptians would rebound eventually but the Akkadian empire disappeared for good.

Conducting all manner of tests including core sampling all over the region, scientists were able to verify what the Egyptians had written about so long ago: a severe, widespread drought. It was devastating. Agricultural efforts ground to a halt, economies collapsed, and people starved. Today we call this period the 4.2 kiloyear event.

Funny, Near Easterners probably would've welcomed a great flood right about then.

I wanted to add, Abramelin, that I am also a Dutchman. Were I to share my last name you would probably recognize it. Alas, I am a Dutchman several generations removed and cannot read or speak Dutch. Oh, the shame!

Edited July 17, 2010 by kmt_sesh

[The Puzzler]

It wasn't Velikovsky who started the comet/Venus thing...

Anaxagoras and Democritus declare that comets are a conjunction of the planets approaching one another and so appearing to touch one another.

Some of the Italians called Pythagoreans say that the comet is one of the planets, but that it appears at great intervals of time and only rises a little above the horizon. This is the case with Mercury too; because it only rises a little above the horizon it often fails to be seen and consequently appears at great intervals of time.

Planets have been associated with being a comet for a long time.

It is all too easy to think they thought about bodies of the Heavens like we did but that is far from what it was like...

Here Aristotle puts forth his objections to this idea:

An objection that tells equally against those who hold this theory and those who say that comets are a coalescence of the planets is, first, the fact that some of the fixed stars too get a tail. For this we must not only accept the authority of the Egyptians who assert it, but we have ourselves observed the fact. For a star in the thigh of the Dog had a tail, though a faint one. If you fixed your sight on it its light was dim, but if you just glanced at it, it appeared brighter. Besides, all the comets that have been seen in our day have vanished without setting, gradually fading away above the horizon; and they have not left behind them either one or more stars. For instance the great comet we mentioned before appeared to the west in winter in frosty weather when the sky was clear, in the archonship of Asteius. On the first day it set before the sun and was then not seen. On the next day it was seen, being ever so little behind the sun and immediately setting. But its light extended over a third part of the sky like a leap, so that people called it a 'path'. This comet receded as far as Orion's belt and there dissolved. Democritus however, insists upon the truth of his view and affirms that certain stars have been seen when comets dissolve. But on his theory this ought not to occur occasionally but always.Besides, the Egyptians affirm that conjunctions of the planets with one another, and with the fixed stars, take place, and we have ourselves observed Jupiter coinciding with one of the stars in the Twins and hiding it, and yet no comet was formed.

http://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/meteorology.1.i.html

[The Puzzler]

I promised Puzzler a little surprise. Well, here it is.

The Finda lived in Aldland/Atland (their homeland) until it submerged. I also mentioned the OLB Kashmir of which is said it lay in the center of the area occupied by the Finda (after the deluge). Then the origin of the OLB "Egyptians" (= Gypsies, the ones from 'Egiptaland') in the Punjab. Then a name many European Gypsies use for themselves: Sinte/Sinti/Sinta >> shift from -s- to -f- ( for centuries the -f- stood for both -s- and -f-) >> Finda. Then.. according to themselves, and nowadays also by others, the origin of their name, Sinti/e/a... is 'Sindh', or better India.

Now something concerning Biblical affairs and the date of the deluge, read this post again:

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=184645&view=findpost&p=3468769

Also remember what someone like a Jensma (but also others before him) said about the true reason of fabricating this manuscript (==> Religion/ religious people / how easy it is to create a religion).

So, you'd expect something Biblical would have gotten into the OLB, right? OK, the easy thing is of course the appearence on the stage of someone with a name similar to Jesus, 'Jes' or Jesos something. That was easy.

Now, just imagine where many people (also in the 19th century) imagined where the true location of (the Garden of) Eden, Paradise, was. Many assumed it was somewhere in the east of Mesopotamia. Let's call that Biblical first land, our land of origin... Old land...

Now keep that in mind, and then read this:

From the OLB:

Here is my Counsel

Punjab, that is five rivers, and by which we travel, is a river of extraordinary beauty, and is called Five Rivers, because four other streams flow into the sea by its mouth. Far away to the eastward is another large river, the Holy or Sacred Ganges. Between these two rivers is the land of the Hindoos. Both rivers run from the high mountains to the plains. The mountains in which their sources lie are so high that they reach the heavens (laia), and therefore these mountains are called Himmellaia. Among the Hindoos and others out of these countries there are people who meet together secretly. They believe that they are pure children of Finda, and that Finda was born in the Himmellaia mountains, whence she went with her children to the lowlands. Some of them believe that she, with her children, floated down upon the foam of the Ganges, and that that is the reason why the river is called the Sacred Ganges. But the priests, who came from another country, traced out these people and had them burnt,..

http://www.sacred-texts.com/atl/olb/olb49.htm

(btw, you see the ridiculous wordplay? Himalaya >> Himmellaia >> Himmel laia. Himmel/Hemel = heaven in German/Dutch)

Ok, so these people thought they were 'pure' Finda who had come from the Himalaya, according to the quote of the OLB.

We all know the legends of Shangri-la and Shambala and what have we, a kingdom somewhere hidden away in the Himalaya mountains, some sort of mountain paradise.

But there's a problem here: the Biblical paradise was not known for it's high mountains were a man's nuts would freeze off during a blizzard (Eve would not have had to stand back that far when she first met Adam...)

Some have thought of Tibet as that Shangri-La, but nah, not really a paradise, is it?

Then some Biblical scholars (and even in the 19th century) assumed the real paradise may have been in a large area beyond the Himalaya: the Tarim Basin.

Even then explorers noticed how perfectly level that huge plain was, that it was surrounded by high mountains, and that there were lots of areas with salt layers on the bottom.

The next rather logical step was thinking that it was the bottom of a huge and ancient inland sea.

And then.... there were those Bible enthousiasts who assumed that because of all these characteristics the Tarim Basin was the real place where the Biblical flood had taken place......

Something happened, the inland sea emptied (like a tilted bath tub) and created the Flood, with the waters gushing down in the direction of Mesopotamia.

Now, if the Finda's origins were there, then that is the place where we should look for the OLB Aldland/Atland, the 'Old Land', and not somewhere in the Atlantic or even the North sea because all those area don't fit what's been said about how and where the Finda lived.

The creators of the OLB wanted the orthodox-religiously inclined people (their victims) to go on a wild goose chase.

Of course everybody would think of Atlantis when they heard/read Aldland/Atland, and back then that was the Atlantic Ocean (now it's being located on every corner of this planet).

But let's be real: they didn't say 'Atlantis', they said 'Aldland', the Old Land.

Problem is, it submerged beneath the waves in 2193 BC according to the OLB, but it could not have been in the Atlantic, nor the North Sea. If it was in the Atlantic, what did the Finda people do? Travel to the other side of the planet, to - let's say - Mongolia or in that neighbourhood?

Seems unlikely.

Then we read that they lived east of Twiskland (Germany), and also near the Himalaya (Kashmir was at the center of their - new? - land).

So the Finda did flee Aldland, but that must have been somewhere in Asia.

Well, that drowned land, the Old Land, Aldland, the origin of the Finda people, the yellow skinned people with straight black hair, must then have been somewhere in that huge inland sea, now the Tarim Basin. Or maybe near where all the water poured out. Anyway, we need some volcanoes there too, if we want to keep following the OLB story. I don't know of any there.

An image from a Bible site about that area would do nice here:

http://www.ensignmessage.com/archives/deluge.html

OK, that was about it.

Need a drink now.

(Oh, and check the date of the Flood in that image: 2345 BC. Don't worry, that date is based on Biblical chronology, not scientific data)

.

So, are you saying the Biblical flood was in Asia as it says above?

Then are you saying that the writers of the OLB seem to put Finda there so the Frisians could trace their ancestry back to the Biblical Flood?

I know I'm being daft and should get it but, do you think Finda is from North Sea or Asia or something else...

Where does it mention volcanoes?

[Abramelin]

Personally, I think 2193BC is open to lots of cataclysms. 200 years, give and take is stuff all when you are speaking of anicent stories and unknown exact dates.

From 2200BC to 2000BC, whatever is in that 200 years could all be related to each other in the tellings of them. Everyone has had to backtrack in Christian years etc, very hard to really know when anything was actually, even though it seems very clear cut.

Back later to answer some stuff there but if you haven't, why don't you guys download CyberSky like I have (free download, free trial)and check the planetary alignments for 2193BC, Alweyn gave a date, I have to recheck it right now, and suss it out like I have been doing because there is some very interesting things going on in the sky, very close alignments and eclipses galore, I can't read it very good but I can see what I can see and can see it would have been interesting heavenly viewing.

Did anyone actually read any of the info I posted by Aristotle from Meteorology and what was classed as a comet to the ancients - a planetary alignment.

Combine these alignments and the climate change from 4.2ky event and there you have it, end of Old Kingdom, end of Akkad, flooding and the myths start to grow.

Hi Puzz, first (to your next post) I was not being sarcastic (although I can be..), I just thought you'd like it. Alewyn doesn't respond anymore, and it was mainly you and me (and Jim later) who were talking here.

Then, why don't you post a screenshot of that alignment you found with CyberSky? In case you don't know (you said you not computer savvy), do a PrintScreen, save the picture to your image files under a recognizable name, then upload to a picture host like ImageShack, copy the Direct Link they give you of the image, and then post that link here (as link or as image).

[Abramelin]

It wasn't Velikovsky who started the comet/Venus thing...

Anaxagoras and Democritus declare that comets are a conjunction of the planets approaching one another and so appearing to touch one another.

Some of the Italians called Pythagoreans say that the comet is one of the planets, but that it appears at great intervals of time and only rises a little above the horizon. This is the case with Mercury too; because it only rises a little above the horizon it often fails to be seen and consequently appears at great intervals of time.

Planets have been associated with being a comet for a long time.

It is all too easy to think they thought about bodies of the Heavens like we did but that is far from what it was like...

Here Aristotle puts forth his objections to this idea:

An objection that tells equally against those who hold this theory and those who say that comets are a coalescence of the planets is, first, the fact that some of the fixed stars too get a tail. For this we must not only accept the authority of the Egyptians who assert it, but we have ourselves observed the fact. For a star in the thigh of the Dog had a tail, though a faint one. If you fixed your sight on it its light was dim, but if you just glanced at it, it appeared brighter. Besides, all the comets that have been seen in our day have vanished without setting, gradually fading away above the horizon; and they have not left behind them either one or more stars. For instance the great comet we mentioned before appeared to the west in winter in frosty weather when the sky was clear, in the archonship of Asteius. On the first day it set before the sun and was then not seen. On the next day it was seen, being ever so little behind the sun and immediately setting. But its light extended over a third part of the sky like a leap, so that people called it a 'path'. This comet receded as far as Orion's belt and there dissolved. Democritus however, insists upon the truth of his view and affirms that certain stars have been seen when comets dissolve. But on his theory this ought not to occur occasionally but always.Besides, the Egyptians affirm that conjunctions of the planets with one another, and with the fixed stars, take place, and we have ourselves observed Jupiter coinciding with one of the stars in the Twins and hiding it, and yet no comet was formed.

http://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/meteorology.1.i.html

I'm sorry, but it definatively was Velikovsky who specifically said that Venus appeared in the skies, born out of Jupiter, and then wandered around the solar system as a rogue planet with the appearence of a huge comet, causing all kinds of mayhem.

The ancients did indeed believe in 'heavenly messengers' like comets and planets, true.

[Abramelin]

So, are you saying the Biblical flood was in Asia as it says above?

Then are you saying that the writers of the OLB seem to put Finda there so the Frisians could trace their ancestry back to the Biblical Flood?

I know I'm being daft and should get it but, do you think Finda is from North Sea or Asia or something else...

Where does it mention volcanoes?

I am not saying anything, I am using the info available to the 19th century people who created the OLB.

THAT is my point, and it has always been my point.

My other point is that many love the OLB for to them it mentions Atlantis (Aldland/Atland), but they all have a totally wrong idea about where the OLB locates it, and who were living there.

Then again another point is: the OLB contains inconsistencies, and the location of Atland is one of them. From the story of Nep Tunis and Nep Inka many get the impression Atland (or what was maybe left of it according to Inka) was to the west in the Atlantic, but from other quotes from the OLB it appears Aldland/Atland is somewhere else (and maybe in Asia).

Something else: Inka is not a Frisian/Scandinavian man's name, but a woman's name. Inka,Inga,Inge.. a fertility goddess, lol.

Volcanoes: the destruction of Aldland had to do with mountains spitting fire; the whole story is about fire, burning forests, earthquakes and deluges.

.

Edited July 17, 2010 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

I haven't been participating in this discussion but have been peeking in now and then. I don't think anyone noticed me spying on all of you. In any case, Abramelin, you've been doing a terrific job bringing logic and reason to what is clearly a bunch of fraudulent twaddle in the Oera Linda Book. I had known very little about the OLB until this discussion kicked off, and I can see how people of the past may have been fooled by it but I can't fathom why anyone nowadays would take it seriously.

I probably don't have much to add to the discussion, but I was reading about the conjectures for the placing of the biblical flood. The Roman Catholic Church of the 19th century was dead fixed on dating the flood to the 22nd century BCE, and tolerated no dissension whatsoever. In his decipherment of hieroglyphs Jean-Francois Champollion had the Church's britches in a bunch because they were worried his work would disprove their chronology of events.

Anyway, I was chuckling over the years and events you posted because I was reminded of a documentary I saw some time ago in which scientists were probing for reasons behind the collapse of Near Eastern civilizations in this same time period, especially the Akkadians and Egyptians. The Egyptians would rebound eventually but the Akkadian empire disappeared for good.

Conducting all manner of tests including core sampling all over the region, scientists were able to verify what the Egyptians had written about so long ago: a severe, widespread drought. It was devastating. Agricultural efforts ground to a halt, economies collapsed, and people starved. Today we call this period the 4.2 kiloyear event.

Funny, Near Easterners probably would've welcomed a great flood right about then.

I wanted to add, Abramelin, that I am also a Dutchman. Were I to share my last name you would probably recognize it. Alas, I am a Dutchman several generations removed and cannot read or speak Dutch. Oh, the shame!

LOL, suddenly the Dutch people here are creeping from behind the woodwork, lol !!

Alas, you don't speak the language anymore, and that's a pitty because then there would be someone else who could do the translating for me, lol.

The problem, as I said many times, is that most people all over the world use English translations for the OLB, and I have shown that these English versions contain some weird and confusing mistakes.

--

About the date of the flood: that date of 2193 BC was the accepted date in Friesland, long before the OLB was published. Imagine what religious people would have thought when they saw that exact same date in a socalled ancient manuscript... "Wow, confirmation at last" ..... yeah, right.

-

Thanks for the complement, Kmt_sesh. The funny thing is that I really do find things out as I go along. Who would have thought that there is an area in Friesland called "Egypte"?? AND east of 'a' Middel Sea?? And sitting on the source of a little river called "De Linde" (remember "Over de Linden" = Other side of the Linde >> Oera Linda?). That those "Egyptians" were in fact the Gypsies, Finda's People... and so on and so on.

I would really love it if this Goffe Jensma would show up here; I guess that what I found out is mere peanuts to what he found out about the OLB , in his 10 years (or more) study of the OLB.

[The Puzzler]

OK, yep, I'm down for Biblical Flood possibly being in the Tarim Basin. I had heard about this and after I had read and read the parts in the Bible after the flood and the complete run down on who was who's sons and then Cush has Nimrod who builds the cities of Akkad etc in the land of Shinar. Then it goes on to tell us that men migrated into the land of Shinar from the East, ok, so was Nimrod there already in Shinar before the men migrated from the East or what?

It's a tad confusing but if we go for Nimrod was not there and the men who migrated from the East were the men who actually built the tower of Babel of who Nimrod was part of, we can use this theory.

Another point of interest is the high water mark found along the mountains which rim the Tarim Basin, showing that at one time this basin was filled with water, although not all of the mountains were covered. Within the basin are several small mountains which could be fully covered by a flood held within the higher rim of the valley. Then Genesis 8:4 tells us "the Ark rested . . . upon the mountains of Ararat" and all of a sudden the fundamentalists has us in Armenia. This is where failure to properly translate can lead to false teachings. Please note that verse 4 uses the plural 'mountains', whereas Mount Ararat is a single peak and until recent times known only as Mount Massis. The name 'Mount Ararat' was non existent in biblical times. Furthermore, the Hebrew word ararat means "the top of the hills", not Armenia. The Ark came to rest upon some of the lower mountains within the valley.

http://www.kinsmanredeemer.com/noah.htm

top of the hills hey. This is why I stalled, I couldn't relocate Ararat out of the southern Caucasus. The Black Sea theory looks out now too...

Himellia, heaven, that's a good one actually. So at the tops of hills, we find heaven. So Heaven can be found in the Himalaya's.

[Abramelin]

I first searched for "Dodwell" in this forum, because Alewyn may have mentioned him already, but no.

Alewyn sticks to his 2193 BC date, but that's just the 19th century accepted date for the Flood.

If you look at the image of the Flood in the Tarim Basin I posted before, you will see date of 2345 BC.

Well, what does one do nowadays, eh? You start to Google, and lo and behold, I am quite sure Alewyn would have loved this:

What happened in 2345 b.c.?

Australian astronomer G.F. Dodwell has analyzed the observational records com-piled for the many gnomons erected all over the civilized world during the past 4,000 years. Gnomons are vertical markers that cast shadows from which the local latitudes can be computed. (All one needs are the measurements of the shadow lengths on the longest and shortest days of the year.) The earth's tilt or obliquity-of-the-ecliptic may also be calculated from gnomon data -- and therein lies the anomaly. The tilt of the earth's axis is supposed to vary cyclically between 22 and 24.5° over a period of some 40,000 years due to the pulls of the moon, the sun, and the planets on the earth's equatorial bulge...

Tilt angles computed from ancient gnomon observations deviate markedly from the theoretical curve. The alignment of the ancient Egyptian temple at Karnak and other oriented sites extend the deviation toward the date 2345 B.C. Either the ancient observations were systematically in error all over the world or the earth's tilt angle changed in historical times.

(Bowden, M.; "The Recent Change in the Tilt of the Earth's Axis," Pamphlet No. 236, July 1983. Creation Science Movement.)

Comment. One would think that such startling data, compiled by a recognized astronomer, would be the subject of in-tense study in archeoastronomical circles; instead, it is an English creationst tract that discusses the subject.

http://www.science-frontiers.com/sf030/sf030p02.htm

And the next is from a document of Dodwell:

Finally, in Joseph Edwards’ Differential Calculus, p. 102, the curve I was seeking stood out unmistakably, demonstrating the principles of both “insensibility” and “irregularity.” It was a “logarithmic sine curve.” (see Fig. 3) When the scales of time and of degrees of displacement of the earth’s axis from the normal position were adjusted, so as to correspond with the scales in the example, the resulting mean curve of the observations was an exact replica of the particular logarithmic sine curve illustrated in the text book. The mean observational curve fitted exactly with this logarithmic sine curve, as “a hand in a glove.”

The date of verticality of the curve, 2345 B.C… coincided with an “irregularity,” this being a large and sudden change in the inclination of the earth’s axis; and the date of “insensibility” or of equilibrium in the horizontal time scale of the curve, was 1850 A.D.

It was absolutely certain that every point on the mean observational curve in Figure 3 is precisely a point on a logarithmic sine curve. The curve is therefore a certain and sure mathematical demonstration that in the year 2345 B.C., the earth’s axis was suddenly displaced by a major impact; and the curve shown in Figure 3 is a curve of the partial recovery of the earth to a state of equilibrium, at its normal inclination and conditions, as reached in 1850 A.D.

FIGURE 4

Seven semi-oscillations are indicated between 2345 B.C. and 1850 A.D., the exact semi-oscillation period being 599 years. The nodal points are at B.C., 2345, 1746, 1147, 548, and A.D., 52, 651, 1250, 1849-1850

=

note from Barry Setterfield:

Dodwell has assumed here that the original axis tilt of the earth, before 2345 B.C., was nearly upright. For that reason, he supposed a very strong impact was necessary to jolt the earth from that position to its current 23.5 degree tilt. This is why a number of astronomers have rejected Dodwell’s work in this area. However, if the axis tilt was greater than its current axis tilt before 2345 B.C., then an impact of much less force would have been required to restore the earth to a slightly more upright position. The evidence for this greater axis tilt may be seen in the evidence of the ice age which covered most of Europe prior to 2345 B.C.

Work by Dr. Benny Pieser of the Cambridge Conference Group and Dr. Moe Mandelkehr have shown that in period around 2345 B.C. climate, geological and archaeological changes occurred in which some important civilizations were destroyed -- it appears the first Intermediate Period in Egypt occurred at this time.

http://www.setterfield.org/Dodwell_Manuscript_1.html

[Abramelin]

Himellia, heaven, that's a good one actually. So at the tops of hills, we find heaven. So Heaven can be found in the Himalaya's.

This is ridiculous, Puzz, sorry.

The original meaning of Himmel, Hemel, is 'place of Judgement.' If the OLB is as old as they want us to believe it is (and then it must have existed long before the conversion of the Frisians to Christianity), then they should have used the word Himmel/Hemel not for something 'high up to the sky' (where God and his merrymen hang out), but for a 'place of judgement'.

The original meaning of Himalaya (Sanskrit) is 'abode of snow'.

This is the childish play with words you see everywhere in the OLB.

It's like me saying, 'America' << 'Merica' << Me Rica << I am rich.. , and then saying "America" is the place of plenty,because it originally meant "I am rich", spoken by one of our true explorers, Nep Inka, when he found all the gold in South America, LOL.

.

Edited July 17, 2010 by Abramelin

[The Puzzler]

LOL, suddenly the Dutch people here are creeping from behind the woodwork, lol !!

Alas, you don't speak the language anymore, and that's a pitty because then there would be someone else who could do the translating for me, lol.

The problem, as I said many times, is that most people all over the world use English translations for the OLB, and I have shown that these English versions contain some weird and confusing mistakes.

--

About the date of the flood: that date of 2193 BC was the accepted date in Friesland, long before the OLB was published. Imagine what religious people would have thought when they saw that exact same date in a socalled ancient manuscript... "Wow, confirmation at last" ..... yeah, right.

-

Thanks for the complement, Kmt_sesh. The funny thing is that I really do find things out as I go along. Who would have thought that there is an area in Friesland called "Egypte"?? AND east of 'a' Middel Sea?? And sitting on the source of a little river called "De Linde" (remember "Over de Linden" = Other side of the Linde >> Oera Linda?). That those "Egyptians" were in fact the Gypsies, Finda's People... and so on and so on.

I would really love it if this Goffe Jensma would show up here; I guess that what I found out is mere peanuts to what he found out about the OLB , in his 10 years (or more) study of the OLB.

Dutch is a descendant of several Frankish dialects spoken in the High Middle Ages and Early Modern Times, and to a lesser extent of Frisian, that was spoken by the original inhabitants of Holland.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_language

I found that really interesting. It seems Dutch, also a germanic language is a descendant of Frisian. That is probably why you see Dutch in the original language.

It seems like a combo of Dutch and English.

I gather this is Dutch:

Okke mijn zoon.

Deze boeken moet gij met lijf en ziel bewaren, zij bevatten

de geschiedenis van ons geheele volk , en ook van onze voor-

vaderen. Verleden jaar heb ik die uit den vloed gered

tegelijk met u en met uwe moeder. Doch zij waren nat ge-

worden, daardoor gingen zij naderhand bederven. Om ze

niet te verliezen , heb ik ze op overlandsch papier overge-

schreven. Bijaldien gij ze erft, moet gij ze ook overschrijven.

Uwe kinderen desgelijks, opdat zij nimmer verloren gaan.

Geschreven te Liuwert , nadat Atland verzonken is , het drie

duizend vier honderd negen en veertigste jaar , dat is naar

de Christen-rekening het twaalf honderd zes en vijftigste jaar.

Hiddo bijgenaamd Over de Linden. Waak.

-------

Wralda, die alleen goed en eeuwig is maakte den aanvang ,

alsdan kwam de tijd , de tijd wrochte alle dingen , en ook

de aarde , de aarde baarde alle grassen , kruiden en boomen , al

het liefelijk gedierte en al het booze gedierte. Alles wat

goed en liefelijk is , bragt zij bij dag voort , en alles wat

boos en kwaad is , bragt zij bij nacht voort. Na het twaalfde

Juulfeest bragt zij voort drie maagden :

Lyda uit gloeijende stof,

Finda uit heete stof, en

Frya uit warme stof.

Then we have the original language as in the book:

Okke min svn.

Thissa boka mot i mith lif and sêle warja. Se vmbifattath

thju skêdnise fon vs êle folk ak fon vsa êthlum. Vrlêden

jêr hab ik tham ut-er flod hred tolik mith thi and thinra

moder. Tha hja wêron wet wrden ; thêr thrvch gvngon hja

afternei vrdarva. Vmbe hja navt to vrlysa hav ik-ra vp

wrlandisk pampyer wrskrêven. Sa hwersa thu se erve , mot

thu se ak wrskryva. Thin barn alsa til thju hja nimmerthe

wèi navt ne kvma.

-------

Wr.alda (*) tham allêna god and èvg is, makade t.anfang ,

dana kêm tid , tid wrochte alle thinga êk jrtha. Jrtha barde

alle garsa, krüdon and boma, allet djara kwik and alletarge

kwik. Al-hwat god and djar is, brocht hju by dègum and al-

hwat kwad and arg is, brocht hju thes nachtis forth. After-

et twilifte jol-fêrste barde hja thrja mangèrta.

Lyda warth ut glyande ,

Finda warth ut hêta and

Frya ut warme stof.

Then we have English:

OKKE MY SON—

You must preserve these books with body and soul. They contain the history of all our people, as well as of our forefathers. Last year I saved them in the flood, as well as you and your mother; but they got wet, and therefore began to perish. In order not to lose them, I copied them on foreign paper.

In case you inherit them, you must copy them likewise, and your children must do so too, so that they may never be lost.

Written at Liuwert, in the three thousand four hundred and forty-ninth year after Atland was submerged—that is, according to the Christian reckoning, the year 1256.

Hiddo, surnamed Over de Linda.—Watch.

----

Wr-alda, who alone is eternal and good, made the beginning. Then commenced time. Time wrought all things, even the earth. The earth bore grass, herbs, and trees, all useful and all noxious animals. All that is good and useful she brought forth by day, and all that is bad and injurious by night.

After the twelfth Juulfeest she brought forth three maidens:—

Lyda out of fierce heat.

Finda out of strong heat.

Frya out of moderate heat.

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/

http://www.archive.org/stream/thetoeralindabo01ottegoog/thetoeralindabo01ottegoog_djvu.txt

Here's the original pages of the book to compare anything to:

http://www.oeralindaboek.nl/boek/index.html

Rather than looking at this as you understand it because it is like Dutch, you should realise your own language descended from it also, in part, along with it (Dutch) being a Germanic language, the same as Anglo-Saxon.

[Abramelin]

Rather than looking at this as you understand it because it is like Dutch, you should realise your own language descended from it also, in part, along with it (Dutch) being a Germanic language, the same as Anglo-Saxon.

Ottema was a Frisian (as well as Jensma). And often I read HIS translation, and see that what he said is sometimes different from what English translators make of the OLB.

Also, when I see Ottema's translation of some word some English guy screwed up, I notice that Ottema's translation is similar or simply the same as what I made of it.

I know how the Dutch language came into existence, Puzz, believe me, I know.

But what you seem to forget that many words in the Dutch language are still very similar (in writing and pronounciation) to Frisian. And also to the Frisian as used in the OLB.

But I know what you are after......

[Abramelin]

About those volcanoes... and about me being able to read most of the original OLB text:

To midden thisre stilnise fång irtha an to bêvande lik as hju stårvande wêre. Berga splyton fon ekkorum to spêjande fjvr ånd logha, ôra svnkon in hira skât del, ånd thêr hju êrost fjelda hêde; hêjade hju berga vppa.

Te midden deze stilnis ving aarde aan te beven gelijk als hij stervende waar. Bergen splijten van elkaar te spugende vuur en [logha], ander zonken in haar schoot [del], en daar hij eerst velden had, hefden hij bergen op.

This is a word for word translation into Dutch (and older Dutch that I know of). The words between brackets were unknown to me, and I had to look them up.

In english:

In the midst of the silence the earth started to tremble as though she was dying. Mountains split apart and started to spit fire and flame, others sunk in her lap down, and where she had fields before, now mountains rose up.

I didn't check the english translation with what can be found online, but I am pretty sure I am close.

.

Edited July 17, 2010 by Abramelin

[The Puzzler]

This is ridiculous, Puzz, sorry.

The original meaning of Himmel, Hemel, is 'place of Judgement.' If the OLB is as old as they want us to believe it is (and then it must have existed long before the conversion of the Frisians to Christianity), then they should have used the word Himmel/Hemel not for something 'high up to the sky' (where God and his merrymen hang out), but for a 'place of judgement'.

The original meaning of Himalaya (Sanskrit) is 'abode of snow'.

This is the childish play with words you see everywhere in the OLB.

It's like me saying, 'America' << 'Merica' << Me Rica << I am rich.. , and then saying "America" is the place of plenty,because it originally meant "I am rich", spoken by one of our true explorers, Nep Inka, when he found all the gold in South America, LOL.

.

You said the German meaning of hemmel was heaven.

Now you say it is place of judgement.

The Tibetan name for the mountain is Gangs Rin-po-che. Gangs or Kang is the Tibetan word for snow peak analogous to alp or himal

Now I see himal can also mean snowy peak, as you also said it meant snowy abode or abode of snow...

So, Himal/hemel really means the same in German and sanskrit - it means snow peak.

But what snowy abode do they mean? The Himalaya Mountains is rather large, is there a snowy abode that also means heaven?

Since Sanskrit and Germanic both share an Indo-European heritage, the name is probably connected to both.

How about this one?

Mount Kailash, means crystal, in Sanskrit.

This is not any old mountain, it represents Heaven itself...

Mount Kailash (Tibetan: གངས་རིན་པོ་ཆེ, Kangrinboqê or Gang Rinpoche;Sanskrit: कैलाश पर्वत, Kailāśā Parvata);simplified Chinese: 冈仁波齐峰, Gāngrénbōqí fēng is a peak in the Gangdisê Mountains, which are part of the Himalayas in Tibet. It lies near the source of some of the longest rivers in Asia: the Indus River, the Sutlej River (a major tributary of the Indus River), the Brahmaputra River, and the Karnali River (a tributary of the Ganges River). It is considered as a sacred place in five religions: Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, and the Bön faith. In Hinduism, it is considered to be the abode of Lord Shiva and as a place of eternal bliss. The mountain lies near Lake Manasarowar and Lake Rakshastal in Tibet.

There have been no recorded attempts to climb Mount Kailash; it is considered off limits to climbers in deference to Buddhist and Hindu beliefs. It is the most significant peak in the world that has not seen any known climbing attempts.

How did I get to Mt Kailash?

Beyond the Himalayas was a huge mountain called Kelasa, Seneru, Neru or more commonly Meru which was thought to be the axis of the world, the point at which the four great continents met (S.II,139, Ja.I,25, III,247). Meru corresponds with Mount Kilash near the southern edge of the Tibetan Plateau.

http://www.buddhanet.net/himalayas.htm

Here's an arial view of Mt Kalish..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mt_Kailash_sat.jpg

An interesting thing here is not only this Mt Meru so the centre of their world and where Shiva lived, their God, it would have been a fairly Heavenly snowy abode. It's on the southern edge of the Tibetan Plateau and looks to open up onto the plain where the 4 (note 4) rivers run from.

[Abramelin]

You said the German meaning of hemmel was heaven.

Now you say it is place of judgement.

Himmel (German) and Hemel (Dutch) are both translated into heaven, yes. NOWADAYS.

The ORIGINAL meaning, centuries ago was 'place of judgement'.

The Frisians who settled in the Punjab/India (according to the OLB) were NO CHRISTIANS.

So now you may tell me why they would use a Christianized meaning of the word 'Himmel/Hemel'.

Get my point??

[SlimJim22]

Hey yeah, the bolt of lightening thrown by Zeus does seem to indicate something...plasmoids, ok, will check it out more, in 2193BC you say? Interesting.

Well 2,193bce is one date that is reckoned but from the links there are many others. Plasmoids and streamers were what I was coming up with. As I understand it, planets have a magnetosphere and a plasmasphere. These extend thousands of miles from the actual planet and the Sun too has one of these large fields. The bigger the planetoid the bigger the field. So when two or more fields come into contact an eletcrical reaction takes place and a charge may be shot out. This is one reasoning why the moon is full of craters, not asteroid impacts but bolts of electrical charge. These huge bolts of lightening must have been incredible to behold and they would give strange appearances to planets that may have led to the myths of dragons and such as is alleged in the links I posted.

It is also theorized that if these jets of electricity hit the ocean they could travel thousands of miles as water conducts electricity and cause havoc when they ran ashore. Could these highly charged events be the reason behind Soddom and Gommorah I was wondering?

They may be a little far fetched but they are really only an extension of CME's but bringing the planets, particulalrly Jupiter into the scenario aswell. AS Kmt mentioned it was drought not flood that finished the old kingdom and this would seem to fit in. One effect of Sun spots is raised temperatures so it's worth considering.

So, prior to the the OLB the accepted dating of the flood by the catholic church was 2,193bce, is this correct? If so it obviously discredits the OLB a great deal but is there any details in the OLB that could not have been known prior to the date of writing. I am slowly reading through the OLB translation from sacred texts but it could take me a long time. The tradition of gypsies coming from India is old so that does not count if that is even what the OLB is suggesting. I'll keep looking and cross referncing with historical records of the time of writing.

[The Puzzler]

Ottema was a Frisian (as well as Jensma). And often I read HIS translation, and see that what he said is sometimes different from what English translators make of the OLB.

Also, when I see Ottema's translation of some word some English guy screwed up, I notice that Ottema's translation is similar or simply the same as what I made of it.

I know how the Dutch language came into existence, Puzz, believe me, I know.

But what you seem to forget that many words in the Dutch language are still very similar (in writing and pronounciation) to Frisian. And also to the Frisian as used in the OLB.

But I know what you are after......

Mate, I'm after nothing.

I have no agenda on either side, can't you see me fence swapping every 5 minutes. I'm after the correct story. I'm looking into whether the Dutch have a reason for ridiculing this so much. I'm seeing what languages underlie it so I can make an informed decision on the text itself. All that...no agenda.

What I am slightly objecting to is you telling me because you read and know Dutch you know what it's about better.

I'm not forgetting it, I'm pointing it out-

What I see is a text that is not Dutch. It is original language of people of Holland, before the Dutch came, the people who were the invaders took on some Frisian into their German and it became Dutch and so did the people. The original people, the Frisians, who spoke Anglo-Saxon, were assimilated into this Dutch people, but retained some of thier original Anglo-Saxon so they had a Frisian language, a native language of A-S mixed with the new German language of the Dutch - the Dutch however, who spoke a German too, took on some Frisian, so their language shows hints of original native Anglo-saxon Frisian and their original Germanic language.

Why as you put it are: that many words in the Dutch language are still very similar (in writing and pronounciation) to Frisian. And also to the Frisian as used in the OLB.

Because your Dutch language is formed from some Frisian, of course you are going to see it, the Frisian has not formed from Dutch.

How this makes you more qualified to read the original text because you read Dutch is what I''m not really getting...but anyways, whatever.