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Riaan

[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood

11,638 posts in this topic

As sea-level rise slowed-down, other tribesmen

began to reclaim the coastal plains. The

oldest known maritime settlements, dating

about 2600 BC, have been found in a former salt

marsh area in West-Friesland.

more...

The earliest findings are

associated with the Vlaardingen civilization

(3500-2500 BC), an amphibious counterpart of

the upland funnel-beaker settlements. But the

overall picture is very incomplete, due to coastal

erosion. Apparently, local people have learned to

build seaworthy boats at an early date. Even the

oldest marshland settlement reveals traces of

haddock, caught in open sea. Wherever possible,

diets were supplemented by large amounts of

shellfish. During the Bronze Age (2100-600 BC)

the island of Helgoland, 100 km off the coast,

apparently developed into a center of copper

production, flint mining and amber trade. The

moraine island of Texel has also been inhabited

since the Bronze Age.

About 1350 BC Bronze Age farmers settled

down at a former salt marsh estuary near

Hoogkarspel (Noord-Holland). As far as we

known, they were the first marshland dwellers

who held out against rising water levels by

building their farmsteads on raised platforms.

Another Bronze Age settlement has been found

at the Weser River banks near Rodenkirchen. In

either case, settlements were abandoned before

the beginning of the Iron Age.

After 2200BC the site disappeared under several feet of clay and peat.

This certainly indicates something to me, several feet of clay and peat on top of these ancient sites at 2200BC where people were living quite a successful maritime life. Many fled the area at that time.

More:

Hunebedden

The most important of those sandy highgrounds is the "Hondsrug" (back of the dog),

some 60 km. long, from Groningen to Emmen in Drente (see map). The highest point

is 30 m. above sealevel. This highground was populated more or less continuously

since the neolithicum. Many megalithic chambered tombs, called 'hunebedden', can

still be seen here. A few kilometers to the south of Groningen such a tomb had

been in use from 2700 to 2200 b.c. The northernmost of these hunebedden was found

in Delfzijl (at the coast), under a thick layer of clay.

http://web.inter.nl.net/users/springelkamp/gronhist.txt

Then the Frisians come along...

The Frisians

In the early Iron-age (600-400 b.c., period Hallstad/La Tene), because of

overpopulation on the highgrounds, the clay-grounds were beeing colonized.

Because these grounds were regularly flooded by the see, people formed artificial

hills on which to live, so called 'terpen', 'wierden' or 'warden'. These people

are the Frisians.

These Frisians may have been reclaiming a land they had inhabited before the clay and peat several feet thick inundated their lands in 2200BC...

The city was founded on the northernmost point of the Hondsrug area. The oldest document referring to Groningen's existence dates from 1040. However, the city already existed long before then: the oldest archaeological traces found are believed to stem from the years 3950 BC3720 BC, although the first major settlement in Groningen has been traced back to the 3rd century AD.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groningen_(city)

*I think it's not out of the question, that a maritime people living in the North Frisian Islands from the early 4th millenium BC, known as a culture who used the word Folk - suffered a cataclysm of some sort geologically when several feet of clay and peat mud inundated their lands c. 2200BC were the ancestors of the Frisians, who were actually the story of the Fryans, the inhabitants of these lands.

I'd even go so far as to say it could be possible this is where the Inguevonic language started and Ingwi, Freyr, son of Norj(th)a originated. It may be the original homeland of the Vanir Gods even.

From these islands to the mainland of Germany, Holland and Frisia and up into Jutland and Sweden, east to the end of the Baltic Sea at one point, all these related people would have inhabited, sailing the seas, only being turned upside down once the arrival of the land-dwelling Indo-Europeans occurred.

Edited by The Puzzler

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See this map - no wonder I am confused!!!!!!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/62/Sonderjylland1918.jpg

This part of the Wadden Sea is the North Frisian Islands, they appear a bit like the islands of the southern part of Frisia near Holland and I see the word Frisland here, in Denmark, near these islands I at first mistook for being in the areas of Frisia near Holland.

This part in Sonderjylland is where Nordstrand is and Pelworm Island, and Northern Frisland.

Sorry, I'm not up on the exact geography of the area but I will be soon. It makes no difference to my above posts.

SonderJYLland

Sonderjylland1918.jpg

So, apparently the Minoan haul was found right up here.

PS: Now I also get that Otharus showed this map of the same area Frisia Borealis. How interesting.

frisia%2Bborealis%2B1651.JPG

Edited by The Puzzler

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Same hexagonal towers on Nordstrand...

Church%20of%20Odenbuell.jpg

http://www.lancewadplan.org/Cultural%20atlas/SH/Nordstrand/nordstrand.htm#0.%20Top

Amrum, one of the island in this area:

The oldest traces of settlements in the area date back to the Neolithicum, among them a number of dolmens. Also many tomb sites from the Bronze and Iron Ages have been preserved. In the dunes west of the decoy pond the remainders of an Iron Age hamlet have been found. It is unknown whether the Ambrones, who together with the Cimbri and Teutones threatened Rome around 100 B.C., stemmed from this island which back then was still connected to the mainland by a land bridge.

In the early Middle Ages the island was colonised by the Frisians. Next to salt making, agriculture, fishery and whaling, merchant shipping was one of the main sources of income for a long time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amrum

Frisians of the Middle Ages colonised Amrum, Middle Ages but there was plenty going on prior to that before these Fryans became actual Frisians. It must have been quite a powerful island force if it's thought tribes like the Ambrones, Teutones and the Cimbri may have come from there.

Ambrones:

Their name has been connected to the islands of Fehmarn, old name Imbria, and Amrum. If true, they may be the Ymbers of Widsith.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambrones

Nice post, but why do you add that pic of a modern church??

I guess, like me, you tried everything to find something hexagonal, and yes, all you will find is a relatively modern church tower. Well, I did find a polygonal (an octagonal) Roman tower in Dover, but even that one is -a- wrong culture and -b- wrong age.

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This part interested me as it mentions a clear date of 2200BC...

Apparently, their inhabitants fled the area as soon as

the impact of rising sea levels came to be felt.

Near Delfzijl Neolithic settlers built a megalithic

chambered tomb about 3350 BC. After 2200, BC

the site disappeared under several feet of clay

and peat. Settlement remains are known from

Emden and Winsum (Groningen), but scattered

findings suggest that human activities extended

far into the present Wadden Sea. As much as 77

megalithic graves and 1,000 Bronze Age barrows

are located on Sylt, Föhr and Amrum alone,

whereas the adjoining mudflats and sandbanks

provided dozens of flint daggers and sickles. Barrows

and megalithic graves are also numerous in

the upland districts.

The date -2200 BC- sure is interesting, but you would have hit jackpot if the sites were - apart from clay and peat - had been covered with a layer of sand.

The 2194 BC thing of the OLB was a disaster that included catastrophic floods. Such floods carry a lot of sand with them, which cover coastal areas.

The process desscribed in the pdf is about slowly rising sealevels and a subsequent deposit of clay and later on, peat.

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Nice post, but why do you add that pic of a modern church??

I guess, like me, you tried everything to find something hexagonal, and yes, all you will find is a relatively modern church tower. Well, I did find a polygonal (an octagonal) Roman tower in Dover, but even that one is -a- wrong culture and -b- wrong age.

I showed it to show how the culture of the hexagonal tower ATTACHED to a long house is also still in this area.

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I showed it to show how the culture of the hexagonal tower ATTACHED to a long house is also still in this area.

LOL.

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Read the next rant, please:

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

After I found a Finnish generic name for a hillfort, a name close to the OLB Lindasburgt (in south-west Skenland/Schoonland), I focussed on the southern part of Sweden (Skåne Lån ) to find other locations with a 'Linda' in their name.

Here's something that's quite close to the "Lindaoorden':

Linderödsåsen

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linder%C3%B6ds%C3%A5sen

Linderödsåsen is named after the parish name Linderödsåsen which in turn contains Linde (linden stocks) and Ryd (clearing). Åsen utgör i likhet med många av de andra skånska åsarna en geologisk gräns, den sk Tornqvistlinjen . The ridge is similar to many of the other ridges in Skåne a geological boundary, known as the Tornqvist line

http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linder%C3%B6ds%C3%A5sen

Not satisfied, I played a bit with the letters, and tried "Lindenoorden".... but nothing.

OK, then "Lindenoord", and BINGO !!

This "Lindenoord" is a centuries old villa in the city of Wolvega, Friesland, and close to that now 'famous' river 'De Linden'(district of Weststellingwerf, Friesland).

But that's not all... this was also the villa where once Willem van Haren lived, the man who wrote a huge poem about the Friso and his adventures in India and elsewhere (Gevallen van Friso, koning der Gangariden en Prasiaten

), a poem discussed and analyzed by Joost Halbertsma.

Not only was Willem a writer/poet, he was also a grietman (OLB: grevetman), something between a mayor and judge.

Did this 'Lindenoord' suffer in any way? Yes, it was burned down, and much of the library was lost in 1776. After that is was rebuilt again.

http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onno_Zwier_van_Haren

http://www.stinseninfriesland.nl/Lindenoord.htm

http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolvega

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolvega,_Weststellingwerf

http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lijst_van_rijksmonumenten_in_Wolvega

http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bestand:Map_NL_Weststellingwerf_Linde.png

http://www.stellingwerven.dds.nl/toerisme/linde/linde1.JPG

http://www.toeristeninformatie.nl/Provincie/3/WOLVEGA.html

==

So, instead of focussing on southern Sweden, I just played with the letters of the Linda-locations in the OLB. It's my idea that the creators of the OLB simply looked for placenames in some atlas, places that started with "Lind- " , and added a distorted form of that placename to the story.

Another placename in the OLB is "Lindahem" . Now what does the OLB say about Lindahem?

"My father has written how the Lindaoorden and Lindgaarden were destroyed. Lindahem is still lost, the Lindaoorden partially, and the north Lindgaarden are still concealed by the salt sea."

I tried "Lindenheim", but all I found was something on a Dutch Wiccan site that told about a last witch-burning in 1798.

http://www.archive.silvercircle.org/1990_autumn_heksen_in_nederland.htm

All I was able to find out is that this place is somewhere in Germany, but that's it.

Another try: "Lindheim".. nothing... "Lindenhem".. still nothing... maybe "Lindesheim"?? BINGO !!

The first hit, after I skipped past all the holiday sites, is this:

Lindesheim - ein verschwundenes Dorf bei Offstein

http://www.regionalgeschichte.net/rheinhessen/region/orte/orte-l/lindesheim.html

In case you can't read German: "Lindesheim, a vanished village near Offstein".

Vanished vilage??? Remember, all the OLB tells us about Lindahem is: "Lindahem is still lost"....

Lindesheim wurde bereits im Mittelalter um 1350 verlassen und ging vollständig unter. Hierüber erzählt der Volksmund im Zusammenhang mit der Geschichte der Dirmsteiner Glocken.

Lindesheim was abandoned during the Middle Ages around 1350 and went under completely. It's mentioned in legends in the context with the history of the Dirmstein Bells.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindesheim

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurentiuskirche_(Dirmstein)#Geschichte_der_Dirmsteiner_Glocken (forget about this, no clues at all)

But when trying to Google some pics, I again found a "Lindenheim" with an -n- instead of an -s- :

lindenh.jpg

Nice little 'citadel/burgt', right? Well, the lost village itself was located near this hillfort/castle. That is IF Lindesheim = Lindenheim.

Now look at the surrounding area of this Lindenheim:

mt24-094.jpg

Lindenheim is at the lower end of the image, but look at what it says a little up/left... "Lindengrunden". Now that means something like "area with Linde/lime trees" or... Linden-oorden. :)

t_lipniak_lindenheim_457.jpg

http://ruciane-nida.org/sercemazur/viewtopic.php?t=211

Oh, and from this Polish site I understand it's near Friedrichshof, west of Berlin, god.

+++

http://www.ahrensburg.teleskopstapler-mieten.de/

Well, it could be a misspelling or Lindesheim (the lost village) is in south Germany (near Offstein), and the Lindenheim (with the castle and with those 'Lindengrunden') is in east Germany. I am getting quite confused now..

Heh, and here one in Switserland: http://www.panoramio.com/photo/21181985, but that's just a hotel... phhew.

And... here one in northern Germany, near Ahrensburg (north-east of Hamburg, Schleswig-Holstein)

http://maps.google.nl/maps?hl=nl&q=ahrensburg&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hq=&hnear=Ahrensburg,+Germany&gl=nl&ei=fuyaTdySI8-cOuzK4Z8H&sa=X&oi=geocode_result&ct=title&resnum=1&ved=0CCQQ8gEwAA

So, in short: there is a 'lost village' called Lindesheim in soouth Germany, there is a village with castle/hillfort near 'Lindenoorden' called Lindenheim, in east Germany, and there is one near Ahrensburg in Schleswig-Holstein, close to where we better go look for a 'Lindahem'. The Schleswig-Holstein Lindenheim is relatively 'close' to the 'Lindaoorden'(Linderödsåsen) in southern Sweden.

Yeah, I can imagine they couldn't find Lindahem again, LOL.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Linderödsåsen Ridge

The tumbling waters of Forsakar Falls plunge into a deep ravine. Dressed in mosses and surrounded by ancient deciduous woodlands the surrounding countryside is also the home of spectacular blackcock courting rituals (?? HUH??) and orchid meadows.

Linderödsåsen Ridge runs from the heart of Skåne to Hanöbukten Bay. The geographical variations of the ridge make it appealing. Whether you hike or ride on horseback you can experience the call of the wild. Skåneleden, the network of trails that criss-cross Skåne, runs through a number of nature reserves.

Veer off to the right or left and you’ll walk paths that have only been trod by roe deer and red deer, the latter is the animal emblem of Skåne.

If you take a detour along Hjortslingan Trail you’ll see some of the region’s most attractive stately homes, their grounds are frequently open to the public.

Imposing Bronze Age burial-mounds and stone circles on Linderödsås Ridge hint at bygone civilizations. There are beautiful meadows full of flowers to be seen on Bastslingan Trail, and what better way to see them than by bike.

http://www.turism.skanenordost.se/profil_lasmer.lasso?id=124〈=en

Kungagraven i Kivik (G8)

This is a tomb from the Bronze Age. It is one of the finest relics of antiquity in Sweden. Measured to be 75 meters in diameter. Open May 15 - August 15.

For information and making reservations call +46414-700 21 or 0705-78 33 54.

Lat: N 55º 40' 54.96" Long: E 14º 13' 51.94"

Kung Borres gravhög (a grave mound)(E4)

This is a big grave mound from the Bronze Age situated on an open field close to Borrestad estate on the eastern hillside of Linderödsåsen.

Lat: N 55º 52.555' Long: E 014º 02.351'

http://www.linderodsasensturism.com/Engelsk/files/culture_sights.html

Prehistoric times (12,000 BC to approximately 1000 AD)

After the ice sheet had begun to retreat from the southern parts of the biosphere reserve in

around 13,000 BC, plants and animals started to return, followed a few thousand years later

by the first wave of settlers, who lived as hunters, fishermen and gatherers. The earliest

archaeological remains discovered within the proposed biosphere reserve are to be found at

Fjälkinge Backe Hill and have been dated from about 11,000 BC. During the Neolithic Period

(4,200 BC to 1,800 BC) people began to cultivate the land. Farming was carried out as a

rotational system of cultivation and clearance on light soils; small areas were cleared or

burned at regular intervals to provide a few harvests, after which they were used primarily for

grazing. Over a period of time the central parts of the plain were gradually transformed into

more open grazing land. This rotational system of cultivation and fallow, which required large

areas of land, continued during the Bronze Age (1,800 BC to 500 BC), when cultivation also

spread to areas far beyond those farmed today. There are still traces of cultivation from the

late Bronze Age and early Iron Age on the high reaches of the hills and ridges, for example on

Linderödsåsen Ridge.

During the early Iron Age (500 BC to 400 AD) a change in the climate meant that it became

colder and wetter. Animals had to be kept indoors during the winter, and the need for winter

fodder increased. Naturally open lands were then used as hayfields, where the grass was cut

and dried to make hay for winter fodder.

http://www.vattenriket.kristianstad.se/ansokan/pdf/041221_nominationform_kristianstadsvattenrike.pdf

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This is concerning Lindesheim near Ahrensburg, Schleswig-Holstein. It's not necessarily this Lindesheim itself, but it could be...

---

. Zuvor stand dort eine noch nicht datierte Fluchtburg, deren Ausmaße durch die äußeren Wallgräben im Forst Hagen im Süden der Stadt noch gut erkennbar sind. Mündliche Überlieferungen sprechen von der Zeit der Wendenkriege im 10. Jahrhundert.

Previously, there was a still undated refuge-mound (the Dutch "Vliedberg", or terp) whose dimensions through the outer moats in Forst Hagen in the south of the city are still identifiable. Oral traditions speak of the wars at the turn of the 10th Century.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahrensburg

Als Fliehburg (auch Fluchtburg, Volksburg, Bauernburg oder Vryburg) wird eine burgähnliche, meist von Wällen umgebene Verteidigungsanlage bezeichnet, die nicht dauerhaft bewohnt wurde, sondern einer lokal ansässigen Bevölkerung als zeitweiliger Rückzugsort bei Kriegsgefahr diente. In früheren Zeiten wurden derartige Anlagen als Hünenburgen bezeichnet, da ihre Entstehung Hünen zugeschrieben wurde.

By Flieburg/refuge mound (also Fluchtburg, People's castle, farmburg or Vryburg), was meant a castle-like, by ramparts surrounded defense system, which was not permanently inhabited, but used by the local resident population as a temporary retreat from the threat of war. In earlier times, such structures were described as Hünenburgen, since their formation was attributed to the Huns.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fliehburg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c5/Raddusch%2C_Slawenburg.jpg/798px-Raddusch%2C_Slawenburg.jpg

Raddusch.jpg

Slawenburg.jpg

(this not the one near Ahrensburg, but it's a similar one).

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This part interested me as it mentions a clear date of 2200BC...

Apparently, their inhabitants fled the area as soon as

the impact of rising sea levels came to be felt.

Near Delfzijl Neolithic settlers built a megalithic

chambered tomb about 3350 BC. After 2200, BC

the site disappeared under several feet of clay

and peat. Settlement remains are known from

Emden and Winsum (Groningen), but scattered

findings suggest that human activities extended

far into the present Wadden Sea. As much as 77

megalithic graves and 1,000 Bronze Age barrows

are located on Sylt, Föhr and Amrum alone,

whereas the adjoining mudflats and sandbanks

provided dozens of flint daggers and sickles. Barrows

and megalithic graves are also numerous in

the upland districts.

Puzzler,

Sorry to be a pain, but I cannot find the above quote. Can you please give us your link (again?)

Thanks

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The date -2200 BC- sure is interesting, but you would have hit jackpot if the sites were - apart from clay and peat - had been covered with a layer of sand.

The 2194 BC thing of the OLB was a disaster that included catastrophic floods. Such floods carry a lot of sand with them, which cover coastal areas.

The process desscribed in the pdf is about slowly rising sealevels and a subsequent deposit of clay and later on, peat.

Abe, this is the Jackpot, or the smoking gun.

Vele menschen werden in de aarde begraven, en velen die aan het vuur ontkomen waren, kwamen daarna in het water om. Niet alleen in het land van Finda spuwden de bergen vuur, maar ook in het Twiskland. Wouden brandden daardoor achterelkander weg, en toen de wind daar van daan kwam, waaiden onze landen vol asch. Stroomen werden verlegd en bij hunne monden kwamen nieuwe eilanden van zand en drijvend vee. Drie jaren was de aarde zoo lijdende, maar toen zij herstelde, kon men hare wouden zien. Vele landen waren verzonken, en andere uit de zee opgerezen en het Twiskland voor de helft ontwoud.

Many people were buried in the earth and many who had escaped the fire perished in the water. Not only in Finda’s Land did the mountains spew fire but also in Twiskland. Forests were burned one after the other, and when the wind came from there our land was covered with ash. Rivers changed their course, and at their mouths new islands were formed of sand and floating animals. Three years earth suffered, but when it improved the forests could be seen. Many countries were submerged, others had risen out of the sea and in Twiskland half of the forests were destroyed.

Where the OLB says "sand and animals", read "topsoil and organic material". This became peat & clay over 4000 years.

How could any hoaxer in the 19th century have known this and the date of 2200 BC / 2193 BC.

The fact that scientists at present ascribe the peat and clay to rising sea levels is merely their interpretation and, you will agree, they could in all probability be wrong.

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Thanks for all the very interesting posts of the last few days.

I took a brake of posting.

The article about the OLB-paper study will appear mid-April in a magazine for archivists.

I received a copy, but was asked to keep the information for myself until publication.

Sorry to keep you waiting.

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Thanks for all the very interesting posts of the last few days.

I took a brake of posting.

The article about the OLB-paper study will appear mid-April in a magazine for archivists.

I received a copy, but was asked to keep the information for myself until publication.

Sorry to keep you waiting.

Boo! Hiss!

My rear end has taken up an odd shape since this thread started.

There again it will be back to Monty Pythons if everything is settled. "What are we going to do now?" "What are we going to do now?"

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Abe, this is the Jackpot, or the smoking gun.

Vele menschen werden in de aarde begraven, en velen die aan het vuur ontkomen waren, kwamen daarna in het water om. Niet alleen in het land van Finda spuwden de bergen vuur, maar ook in het Twiskland. Wouden brandden daardoor achterelkander weg, en toen de wind daar van daan kwam, waaiden onze landen vol asch. Stroomen werden verlegd en bij hunne monden kwamen nieuwe eilanden van zand en drijvend vee. Drie jaren was de aarde zoo lijdende, maar toen zij herstelde, kon men hare wouden zien. Vele landen waren verzonken, en andere uit de zee opgerezen en het Twiskland voor de helft ontwoud.

Many people were buried in the earth and many who had escaped the fire perished in the water. Not only in Finda’s Land did the mountains spew fire but also in Twiskland. Forests were burned one after the other, and when the wind came from there our land was covered with ash. Rivers changed their course, and at their mouths new islands were formed of sand and floating animals. Three years earth suffered, but when it improved the forests could be seen. Many countries were submerged, others had risen out of the sea and in Twiskland half of the forests were destroyed.

Where the OLB says "sand and animals", read "topsoil and organic material". This became peat & clay over 4000 years.

How could any hoaxer in the 19th century have known this and the date of 2200 BC / 2193 BC.

The fact that scientists at present ascribe the peat and clay to rising sea levels is merely their interpretation and, you will agree, they could in all probability be wrong.

Just a quick reply:

The tsunami caused by the Storegga Slide, the up to 3-days-long tsunami that finished off Doggerland around 6145 BC, left traces (sand, shells and ao on) in the countries surrounding the present North Sea. Clear traces.

I tell you Alewyn, I have read so many scientific pdf's about Doggerland and connected stuff, that my eyes started to water. And very often I was looking for something more recent than 6145 BC, but never have I found anything hugely catastrophic of past that date.

The Storegga Slide was caused when a submarine layer of sediment the size of Iceland (or Ireland), west of Norway, became unstable and started to move. Now I imagine that an event as described in your book - a comet impact in the south Indian Ocean around 2200 BC, an impact that may even have tilted the earth's axis - would have had an effect on geological strata similar or greater than the efect of the Storegga Slide.

And most important, we would have heard about it. The Storegga Slide effected the North Sea area only, but the event in your book had an effect on the whole planet.

And even if it wasn't a comet impact, even if the earth's axis did not tilt, even then - if the OLB is true - should we find traces of all the OLB disasters all over the world, and around 2200 BC.

Not just floods or draughts, but burnt forests, volcanic eruptions, rivers changing direction, lands submerged and upheaveled (sp?), mountains crumbling... and most important: all that around 2200 BC.... worldwide.

++

EDIT:

Imagine: most of the forests of Europe burnt to a cinder. You'd imagine they'd found a carbon layer, dating to 2200 BC, all over Europe (and maybe Russia)??

-

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Puzzler,

Sorry to be a pain, but I cannot find the above quote. Can you please give us your link (again?)

Thanks

I'm sorry Alewyn, it seems I didn't add it, I dont know why I didn't, I think I just forgot..

Here it is'- Page 19 that part about 2200BC

http://www.waddensea-secretariat.org/lancewad/report/chap2.pdf

Edited by The Puzzler

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++

EDIT:

Imagine: most of the forests of Europe burnt to a cinder. You'd imagine they'd found a carbon layer, dating to 2200 BC, all over Europe (and maybe Russia)??

-

.

I'm working on finding it don't worry...

-----------

Cornelia Ja¨ger

Astrophysikalisches Institut, Friedrich-Schiller-Universita¨t Jena, Jena, Germany

Received 31 May 2002; revised 24 September 2002; accepted 24 September 2002; published 10 December 2002.

[1] A common paradigm is that chernozem soils developed in the Holocene under

grassland steppes, with their formation largely determined by three factors, parent

material, climate and faunal mixing. For European chernozems, however, pollen records

show that steppes were rare. Here, using high-resolution transmission electron

microscopy, electron energy loss spectroscopy, micro Raman spectroscopy and

radiocarbon dating, we characterized the nanomorphology and chemical structure of soil

organic carbon (SOC) from central European chernozems. We identified submicron

remnants of burned biomass (15–45 percent of SOC), coexisting as amorphous charblack

carbon (BC) derived from pyrolized cellulose or soot-BC. The BC was several

millenia in age (1160–5040 carbon-14 years) and up to 3990 radiocarbon years older than

bulk SOC, indicating significant residence times for BC in soils. These results challenge

common paradigms on chernozem formation and add fire as an important novel factor. It

is also clear that the role of fire in soil formation has been underestimated outside classical

fire prone biomes. Furthermore, our results demonstrate the importance of quantifying

BC in soils because of its large contribution, longevity and potential role in the global

biogeochemical carbon cycle. INDEX TERMS: 1055 Geochemistry: Organic geochemistry; 1615

Global Change: Biogeochemical processes (4805); 4805 Oceanography: Biological and Chemical:

Biogeochemical cycles (1615); KEYWORDS: black carbon, soil organic matter, high resolution transmission

electron spectroscopy, Raman

---------------

http://www.geo.uzh.ch/~mschmidt/downloads/2002GB001939.pdf

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Abe - Concerning Stavia, Lindahem and Luidgarda. I agree with Alewyn that Stavia is Staveren. I have spent all night studying maps of Friesland, the IJsselmeer, Rhine and Denmark and the German Bight as well as Alewyn's map of Flyland and trying to make sense of some things.

Now if we consider that:

These are the Grevetmen under whose direction this book is composed:—

Apol, Adela’s husband; three times a sea-king; Grevetman of Ostflyland and Lindaoorden. The towns Liudgarda, Lindahem, and Stavia are under his care.

(List of the rest follows)

and consider that Stavia is Staveren, why would Luidgarda and Lindahem be anywhere other than right near Staveren??

Lindahem sounds to me like it may have just disappeared into the sea, exactly what they said, it was in East Flyland or even out into the Wadden Sea. Since Staveren is on the North of this old Flyland, the (IJsselmeer according to Alewyn) I'd assume myself the other two towns would also be nearby. Not off somewhere else in Germany or Switzerland.

Edited by The Puzzler

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Our results unequivocally demonstrate the presence

of BC from biomass burning in European soils, although we

can only speculate on whether the BC was formed through

natural or anthropogenic burning. These data challenge the

common paradigm that chernozems are zonal soils with

climate, parent material and bioturbation dominating soil

formation, and introduce fire as a novel, important factor in

the formation of these soils.

http://www.geo.uzh.ch/~mschmidt/downloads/2002GB001939.pdf Same pdf as one given in Post #4165

What this says it that it IS A POSSIBILITY THAT FIRE DID GO THROUGH EUROPE & GERMANY from a time period around the Neolithic and/or onwards.

If you read it all you'll see it says maybe 7 fire events, then after analysis this part is specifically mentioned: It is possible that the quantities of BC-SOC

measured in these soils were produced by a small number of

fire events, given aboveground biomass carbon density.

The idea is that the BC in the soil could have been caused by slash and burn human methods, but this would possibly show a larger number of fires. It's possible it's a combination of both slash and burn and natural burning of vegetation by fires.

Nothing concrete but at least we now know that carbon DOES show layers of burning throughout Europe in the time period we are talking about.

Also, it has to understood this sort of information isn't just falling out of everyone's pockets, their is no clear answers to find for these questions at present.

Edited by The Puzzler

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Our results unequivocally demonstrate the presence

of BC from biomass burning in European soils, although we

can only speculate on whether the BC was formed through

natural or anthropogenic burning. These data challenge the

common paradigm that chernozems are zonal soils with

climate, parent material and bioturbation dominating soil

formation, and introduce fire as a novel, important factor in

the formation of these soils.

http://www.geo.uzh.c...002GB001939.pdf Same pdf as one given in Post #4165

What this says it that it IS A POSSIBILITY THAT FIRE DID GO THROUGH EUROPE & GERMANY from a time period around the Neolithic and/or onwards.

If you read it all you'll see it says maybe 7 fire events, then after analysis this part is specifically mentioned: It is possible that the quantities of BC-SOC

measured in these soils were produced by a small number of

fire events, given aboveground biomass carbon density.

The idea is that the BC in the soil could have been caused by slash and burn human methods, but this would possibly show a larger number of fires. It's possible it's a combination of both slash and burn and natural burning of vegetation by fires.

Nothing concrete but at least we now know that carbon DOES show layers of burning throughout Europe in the time period we are talking about.

Also, it has to understood this sort of information isn't just falling out of everyone's pockets, their is no clear answers to find for these questions at present.

Yes Puzz and this goes hand in hand with what we know about the Aboriginals of Australia as well as other "Primitive cultures" and the control they placed on their environment with the use of fire.

I have said it before but take away the convenience of Electricity, the steam and internal combustion engines and we are right back to the Stone Age in reality.

It amazes me how conceited and superior we all think we are when with the removal of the above would bring most of society and civilization to a stand still today.

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Yes Puzz and this goes hand in hand with what we know about the Aboriginals of Australia as well as other "Primitive cultures" and the control they placed on their environment with the use of fire.

I have said it before but take away the convenience of Electricity, the steam and internal combustion engines and we are right back to the Stone Age in reality.

It amazes me how conceited and superior we all think we are when with the removal of the above would bring most of society and civilization to a stand still today.

Yes, from the article..

In black Australian

grassland soils, under aboriginal fire management for thousands

of years, up to 30% of the soil organic carbon (SOC)

was present as BC, whereas adjacent forested soils that were

not subjected to regular aboriginal burning were gray and

contained little BC

I know, I had a blackout yesterday and was a mess, I needed the internet mostly, and the fridge, it went out at 8am, by 5pm we had the generator up and running...lol sad really.

It happened before my kids went to school, so they knew, there was a massive tree fell on the power lines from strong wind up the road near the bus-stop, when the kids finished school the workmen were still there,

Y'know, as my kids got off the bus, 2 Aboriginal girls who live near me said: "I wish we had no power!", the other girl went "Yeah, I wish we had no power too".... in the way that if we didn't have the power we wouldn't be bothered by the black-out. How ironic.

I found it really profound lol, so it's funny you should mention this topic in your post...

Edited by The Puzzler

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I know, I had a blackout yesterday and was a mess, the internet mostly, it went out at 8am, by 5pm we had the generator up and running...lol sad really.

It happened before my kids went to school, so they knew, there was a massive tree fell on the power lines from strong wind up the raod near the bus-stop,

Y'know, as my kids got off the bus, 2 Aboriginal girls who live near me said: "I wish we had no power!", the other girl went "Yeah, I wish we had no power too".... in the way that if we didn't have the power we wouldn't be bothered by the black-out. How ironic.

I found it really profound lol, so it's funny you should mention this topic in your post...

A touch of De Ja Vou (However it's spelt ?Gawd I hate this American /English dictionary!)

I also hate to say that it's a trip I often take on my own when trying to visualize how things were in the Bronze age.

We seem to have become so conditioned into accepting all these things that it's almost impossible to see a world without them.

As I have said in other threads we think we can cope with anything but I predict Mother Nature will have the final say.

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A touch of De Ja Vou (However it's spelt ?Gawd I hate this American /English dictionary!)

I also hate to say that it's a trip I often take on my own when trying to visualize how things were in the Bronze age.

We seem to have become so conditioned into accepting all these things that it's almost impossible to see a world without them.

As I have said in other threads we think we can cope with anything but I predict Mother Nature will have the final say.

I think you are right my friend. :yes:

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I think you are right my friend. :yes:

Heck I didn't want to derail this thread Puzz but what I am getting at is we should perhaps re-educate ourselves by learning from those very people we displaced from the landscape.

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Heck I didn't want to derail this thread Puzz but what I am getting at is we should perhaps re-educate ourselves by learning from those very people we displaced from the landscape.

Mate, I don't think you COULD derail this thread. It's been in every direction and back again... :wacko:

But back to the OLB. I gave that info on the fires as the best evidence I could pull right now that fires were shown to have occurred throughout Europe and remained in the soils from the Neolithic.

It doesn't really validate anything but it shows that fires in Europe can't be INVALIDATED. They just don't know, if anyone can pull better or newer evidence of what the results of the fires showed, that would be great.

--

The peat and clay covering the land several feet deep in the Wadden Sea in the area of Delfzijl around the time of 2200BC is as Alewyn said, up to interpretation but 'several feet' would have been enough to change alot of landscape.

This part continued on from the part about 2200BC -

After 2200, BC

the site disappeared under several feet of clay

and peat. Settlement remains are known from

Emden and Winsum (Groningen), but scattered

findings suggest that human activities extended

far into the present Wadden Sea. As much as 77

megalithic graves and 1,000 Bronze Age barrows

are located on Sylt, Föhr and Amrum alone,

whereas the adjoining mudflats and sandbanks

provided dozens of flint daggers and sickles. Barrows

and megalithic graves are also numerous in

the upland districts.

As sea-level rise slowed-down, other tribesmen

began to reclaim the coastal plains. The

oldest known maritime settlements, dating

about 2600 BC, have been found in a former salt

marsh area in West-Friesland.

http://www.waddensea-secretariat.org/lancewad/report/chap2.pdf - Page 19

Edited by The Puzzler

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http://books.google.com.au/books?id=2NAAS5jBI-IC&pg=PA260&lpg=PA260&dq=oldest+maritime+settlement+Friesland&source=bl&ots=tS926v6mA6&sig=aZhYELnPXDFehXHVPgQTENWT7kY&hl=en&ei=vIadTYiVGNS8cc60-acE&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CCMQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q&f=false

Term used: sand, sandy clay, clay - I could then interpret the before 'clay' as sandy clay even, there's your sand. Alewyn made a good point of this before.

It also mentions Nyhellenia (possible demolished in religious zeal)and Walcheren - same page 260

Then it mentions North behind the dunes in North Friesland 2500BC the remnants of this maritime people are. Andijk is mentioned - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andijk and Bovenkarspel http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bovenkarspel

These early people may have cattle bred then the newer arrivals at the end of the Early Middle Ages bred sheep.

There is differences and shows an overlap of cultures and it's very hard to find evidences of sheep having been in the salt marshes...

Edited by The Puzzler

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