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Riaan

[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood

11,638 posts in this topic

Alewyn finds a good reference to the Germanians by Herodotus as being part of the Persian tribes. The whole chapter of Alewyn's is good and I also have just read some of the Indica just now.

I also agree the religion of the Persians sounds very much like Fryas, no idols, central fire etc.

The Medes were the original people - then a revolt by some tribes led to the split of the 3 main Persian tribes, one of whom was the Passagardae, from this tribe sprung the Archaemenidae, of whom the Great Kings came from Cyrus etc.

So, the Medes are the originators of the Persians - they fractured off and at a later time, Cyrus was born to a Persian and an older realm Median woman. He states that his God is the God of Israel, he also frees the Jews and helps them build the new temple in Jerusalem.

The Medes, in myth are said to have originated with Medea, of Colchis. They were also called Aryans, just what the Persians state they also are. This name just sits so well with the city of Colchis, Aea where Medea lived I always seem to think it was the Persian ancestors who were the actual Colchians of the story.

They also appear in many ancient texts: According to Histories of Herodotus "The Medes were called anciently by all people Aryans; but when Medea, the Colchian, came to them from Athens, they changed their name. Such is the account which they themselves give".[6] He had also listed the names of six Median tribes: "Thus Deioces collected the Medes into a nation, and ruled over them alone. Now these are the tribes of which they consist: the Busae, the Paretaceni, the Struchates, the Arizanti, the Budii, and the Magi."

The Magi. Also mention that Medea came to them from ATHENS, after she fled Colchis in the story. Medea was an enchantress, what is it again in frisian ts...

Medea is mentioned last thing in a short snippet at the end of Adela's Book...

When the sailors were in the creek, there was a wag from Stavoren among them, who said, Medea may well laugh if we rescue her from her citadel. Upon this, the maidens gave to the creek the name Medea mêilakkia (Lake of Medea). The occurrences that happened after this everybody can remember. The maidens ought to relate it in their own way, and have it well inscribed. We consider that our task is fulfilled. Hail!

THE END OF THE BOOK.

Did they rescue Medea from the Citadel I wonder...?

Edited by The Puzzler

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Alewyn's book gives us also a run down on dna in Brahmins and found the Y chromosome resembled European Y dna better than Asian. The author concluded that Europeans who migrated into Asia may have merged or imposed their social structure on the indigenous Northern Indians and placed themselves into the highest castes.

The dna shows the ones who entered with the Euro-Y were most likely more men.

This goes with Alewyn's ideas that the shamanistic Magyar who entered fromt he Altai went into India's Harappa Valley after the fall of the Indus Valley cultures and took over the people, as the same thing happened as they went West into Europe. The priests dominated the people and the way these cultures changed. I won't go on another priest rant even though I feel like it.

Also mentioned in the OLB as "when the priests came from another country" that traced these people and had them burnt is when these Magyar entered the country and the Yrar were the ones who got burnt, and moved more westerly from the Punjab.

So, I think this sits pretty well and agree that it seems possible that this occurred.

The Magi Smerdis takes over the Median Empire when Cambyses is in Egypt, he even infiltrates the Persians. Herodotus also tells us how the Magi are quite odd and different to any other men and that they kill everything, except dogs and men, with their hands and enjoy doing it too.

It is my opinion then, that in Darius and Cyrus time the Magi had no real influence over Persia and their infamy in Persia is only after Cambyses time, seemingly also that they really were not part of the Persian culture but intruded on them and took a place within their realm.

The Persians then of early times were like Jews, the Jews who had been in Persia were the same ones who were in Jerusalem, the Persians of later time were Magi (Chaldean) influenced.

It's like one layer of Jews went to Jerusalem with the same ideals as the Persians - meanwhile Persia changed into a Magi/Chaldean run empire.

I disagree with Alewyn here because I think the 3 wise men were Magi priests on a mission to assert a new "King/God" but the original people didn't accept it and this to me, leads me to think the purer form of the non-idol worshippers knew the Magi spoke rubbish.

The whole OLB is telling us this, over and over, they are deceitful liars, why would this instance be any different...?

And this imo is the whole controversy with the book - that the arrival of a son of God, a new King - was made up by lying Magi priests to increase their own power in the Roman realm and they did a spectacular job of it.

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The deal is the book is telling there is NO Gods, only one spirit, that of Wralda who created everything. The OLB Fryans do not have Goddesses either. They are Mothers.

They have no idols. I, even as a kid, couldn't take on being religious because I can't believe in these so called Gods, to me, they just do not exist, to me, Mary must have secretly had a nookie with Joseph, no way, no how do I believe a spirit impregnated her, can't do, my mind just can't get around it. I enjoy researching myths and Gods because it was something throughout my life that interested me, the power these spirit things had over people and how they apparently interacted with us.

I do believe however that Gods have been created by man for reasons like the OLB tells us, control, power etc.

Even Snorri Snorrisen tells us how Odin and co were mortals made into Gods by their own power and lies.

The OLB to me is not about the history of the Frisians, well it is, but not as important to me of unravelling how this monster called religion swept over the world.

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In saying that I'll also add I was Christened and on that it says I am Church of England.

The OLB tells us Jessos, who I reckon is probably Jesus, was actually very good and spread a good word and that to me is the backbone of what Jesus is about.

The OLB recognises this too by telling us about how the light of Frya and Jessos will be stamped out by these priests.

But when the priests fancy that they have entirely extinguished the light of Frya and Jessos, then shall all classes of men rise up who have quietly preserved the truth among themselves, and have hidden it from the priests.

Essentially the message of Jessos is good but the priests have manipulated it as well.

Sixteen hundred years ago (she writes, 593 B.C.), Atland was submerged; and at that time something happened which nobody had reckoned upon. In the heart of Findasland, upon a mountain, lies a plain called Kasamyr (Cashmere) that is “extraordinary.” There was a child born whose mother was the daughter of a king, and whose father was a high-priest. In order to hide the shame they were obliged to renounce their own blood. Therefore it was taken out of the town to poor people. As the boy grew up, nothing was concealed from him, so he did all in his power to acquire wisdom. His intellect was so great that he understood everything that he saw or heard. The people regarded him with respect, and the priests were afraid of his questions. When he was of full age he went to his parents. They had to listen to some hard language; and to get rid of him they gave him a quantity of jewels, but they dared not openly acknowledge him. Overcome with sorrow at the false shame of his parents, he wandered about. While travelling he fell in with a Frisian sailor who was serving as a slave, and who taught him our manners and customs. He bought the freedom of the slave, and they remained friends till death. Wherever he went he taught the people not to tolerate rich men or priests, and that they must guard themselves against false shame, which everywhere did harm to love and charity. The earth, he said, bestowed her treasures on those who scratch her skin; so all are obliged to dig, and plough, and sow if they wish to reap, but no one is obliged to do anything for another unless it be out of goodwill. He taught that men should not seek in her bowels for gold, or silver, or precious stones, which occasion envy and destroy love. To embellish your wives and daughters, he said, the river offers her pare stream. No man is able to make everybody equally rich and happy, but it is the duty of all men to make each other as equally rich and as happy as possible. Men should not despise any knowledge; but justice is the greatest knowledge that time can teach, because she wards off offences and promotes love.

His first name was Jessos, but the priests, who hated him, called him Fo, that is, false; the people called him Krishna, that is, shepherd; and his Frisian friend called him Buddha (purse), because he had in his head a treasure of wisdom, and in his heart a treasure of love.

At last he was obliged to flee from the wrath of the priests; but wherever he went his teaching had preceded him, whilst his enemies followed him like his shadow. When Jessos had thus travelled for twelve years he died; but his friends preserved his teaching, and spread it wherever they found listeners.

What do you think the priests did then? That I must tell you, and you must give your best attention to it.

Your best attention to the next part.

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Your best attention...

Moreover, you must keep guard against their acts and their tricks with all the strength that Wr-alda has given you. While the doctrine of Jessos was thus spreading over the earth, the false priests went to the land of his birth to make his death known. They said they were his friends, and they pretended to show great sorrow by tearing their clothes and shaving their heads. They went to live in caves in the mountains, but in them they had hid all their treasures, and they made in them images of Jessos. They gave these statues to simple people, and at last they said that Jessos was a god, that he had declared this himself to them, and that all those who followed his doctrine should enter his kingdom hereafter, where all was joy and happiness. Because they knew that he was opposed to the rich, they announced everywhere that poverty, suffering, and humility were the door by which to enter into his kingdom, and that those who had suffered the most on earth should enjoy the greatest happiness there. Although they knew that Jessos had taught that men should regulate and control their passions, they taught that men should stifle their passions, and that the perfection of humanity consisted in being as unfeeling as the cold stones. In order to make the people believe that they did as they preached, they pretended to outward poverty; and that they had overcome all sensual feelings, they took no wives. But if any young girl had made a false step, it was quickly forgiven; the weak, they said, were to be assisted, and to save their souls men must give largely to the Church. Acting in this way, they had wives and children without households, and were rich without working; but the people grew poorer and more miserable than they had ever been before. This doctrine, which requires the priests to possess no further knowledge than to speak deceitfully, and to pretend to be pious while acting unjustly, spreads from east to west, and will come to our land also.

Most Christians believe that human beings experience divine judgment and are rewarded either with eternal life or eternal damnation. This includes the general judgement at the Resurrection of the dead (see below) as well as the belief (held by Roman Catholics,[89][90] Orthodox[91][92] and most Protestants) in a judgment particular to the individual soul upon physical death.

In Roman Catholicism, those who die in a state of grace, i.e., without any mortal sin separating them from God, but are still imperfectly purified from the effects of sin, undergo purification through the intermediate state of purgatory to achieve the holiness necessary for entrance into God's presence.[93] Those who have attained this goal are called saints (Latin sanctus, "holy").[94]

Christians believe that the second coming of Christ will occur at the end of time. All who have died will be resurrected bodily from the dead for the Last Judgment. Jesus will fully establish the Kingdom of God in fulfillment of scriptural prophecies

I'm afraid my faith does not go so far as to think the above will occur. I do think that the message of Jesus is right but not the carrying out of it you could say.

The men who preached at the time may have actually been preaching an old knowledge of Jessos, not new info about a Jesus.

When Jessos had thus travelled for twelve years he died; but his friends preserved his teaching, and spread it wherever they found listeners.

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Your best attention...

Moreover, you must keep guard against their acts and their tricks with all the strength that Wr-alda has given you. While the doctrine of Jessos was thus spreading over the earth, the false priests went to the land of his birth to make his death known. They said they were his friends, and they pretended to show great sorrow by tearing their clothes and shaving their heads. They went to live in caves in the mountains, but in them they had hid all their treasures, and they made in them images of Jessos. They gave these statues to simple people, and at last they said that Jessos was a god, that he had declared this himself to them, and that all those who followed his doctrine should enter his kingdom hereafter, where all was joy and happiness. Because they knew that he was opposed to the rich, they announced everywhere that poverty, suffering, and humility were the door by which to enter into his kingdom, and that those who had suffered the most on earth should enjoy the greatest happiness there. Although they knew that Jessos had taught that men should regulate and control their passions, they taught that men should stifle their passions, and that the perfection of humanity consisted in being as unfeeling as the cold stones. In order to make the people believe that they did as they preached, they pretended to outward poverty; and that they had overcome all sensual feelings, they took no wives. But if any young girl had made a false step, it was quickly forgiven; the weak, they said, were to be assisted, and to save their souls men must give largely to the Church. Acting in this way, they had wives and children without households, and were rich without working; but the people grew poorer and more miserable than they had ever been before. This doctrine, which requires the priests to possess no further knowledge than to speak deceitfully, and to pretend to be pious while acting unjustly, spreads from east to west, and will come to our land also.

Most Christians believe that human beings experience divine judgment and are rewarded either with eternal life or eternal damnation. This includes the general judgement at the Resurrection of the dead (see below) as well as the belief (held by Roman Catholics,[89][90] Orthodox[91][92] and most Protestants) in a judgment particular to the individual soul upon physical death.

In Roman Catholicism, those who die in a state of grace, i.e., without any mortal sin separating them from God, but are still imperfectly purified from the effects of sin, undergo purification through the intermediate state of purgatory to achieve the holiness necessary for entrance into God's presence.[93] Those who have attained this goal are called saints (Latin sanctus, "holy").[94]

Christians believe that the second coming of Christ will occur at the end of time. All who have died will be resurrected bodily from the dead for the Last Judgment. Jesus will fully establish the Kingdom of God in fulfillment of scriptural prophecies

I'm afraid my faith does not go so far as to think the above will occur. I do think that the message of Jesus is right but not the carrying out of it you could say.

The men who preached at the time may have actually been preaching an old knowledge of Jessos, not new info about a Jesus.

When Jessos had thus travelled for twelve years he died; but his friends preserved his teaching, and spread it wherever they found listeners.

Funny that you should quote (and apparently believe) the little Oera Linda Book, but discard the Bible.

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The deal is the book is telling there is NO Gods, only one spirit, that of Wralda who created everything. The OLB Fryans do not have Goddesses either. They are Mothers.

They have no idols. I, even as a kid, couldn't take on being religious because I can't believe in these so called Gods, to me, they just do not exist, to me, Mary must have secretly had a nookie with Joseph, no way, no how do I believe a spirit impregnated her, can't do, my mind just can't get around it. I enjoy researching myths and Gods because it was something throughout my life that interested me, the power these spirit things had over people and how they apparently interacted with us.

I do believe however that Gods have been created by man for reasons like the OLB tells us, control, power etc.

Even Snorri Snorrisen tells us how Odin and co were mortals made into Gods by their own power and lies.

The OLB to me is not about the history of the Frisians, well it is, but not as important to me of unravelling how this monster called religion swept over the world.

My Dear Puzzler,

I have all along tried to keep religion out of this discussion but you seem to come back to it every time. The fact that you will Christianity to be a farce does not make it such.

I have no intention to convert you to Christianity, but I do believe that it is only fair to expect you to have read the Bible before you express an opinion about it. I am not talking here about snippets that you have heard in school, university, anti-Christian web sites, over or during Christmas, etc.

Reading the Bible and understanding it is, of course, two very different things. The Bible consists of 66 books written by numerous authors over a period of more than 2000 years. Many of these authors did not know or read the work of the others. Yet, the central theme about God’s involvement and caring for his creation is a common thread throughout the Bible.

Obviously, Christianity had been hijacked, distorted and corrupted by many through the ages and, more often than not, under the guise of Christianity. This still applies to many so-called Christian denominations today. This still does not prove that all ministers of religion are corrupt, as you have now stated a number of times.

The same is happening in Islam where there are very divergent views on their religion (which, interestingly enough, grew out of Judaism and Christianity) – to the extent that they are willing to kill each other over it. Even the OLB complains that the Magyarar stole their religion and corrupted it.

One needs a bit of wisdom to be able to distinguish between truth and fallacy i.r.o. the Bible and Christianity. That you can only do if you know and understand the Bible and its principles, and by comparing it to other religions.

You keep knocking Christianity, but have you ever thought what the world would have been without it?

Where do you find freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of association, democracy, social tolerance, social justice and upliftment, free enterprise, the rule of law, etc., etc., in combination? All these only exist together in Christian or former Christian countries.

Do you think you will be able to criticize the state in many of the countries in the East (China, Russia, Korea, etc.) or do you think you will live to tell the tale if you say anything against Islam in the Middle East? Just this last week they rioted in Afghanistan and killed a number of people, because some misguided priest burned a Koran in America – thousands of kilometers away.

I can assure you that some of the most prominent intellectuals in the world today (including natural scientists) are Christians. Why would you believe their academic credentials if they are such fools as to believe in Christ? Still others, who do not want to acknowledge the existence of God, try to explain the existence of the universe through the theory of “Intelligent Design”. Think about it.

Your speculation that the three wise men from the East went to Israel to found a new dispensation is absolutely laughable and ridiculous. For centuries before the birth of Christ, the Jews prophesized the coming of their Messiah. In fact, they still believe that today. The fact that they did not accept Jesus as the Messiah, has nothing to do with the three wise men. From nowhere, you, Puzzler, now make the earth-shattering discovery that has evaded the most brilliant minds throughout the ages.

Just as a little aside: Ignoring Jesus’ deity for the moment, what is your opinion about him as a person? After all, the very fiber of Western society can be traced back to him. Therefore, I assume you must have some views about him.

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Well, I also do not want to go into a discussion about religion.

I found something much better to talk about:

According to Johannes Turmair (Bayerische Chronik & Deutsche Chronik) there was a succession of Teutonic kings stretching back to the Great Flood, ruling over vast swathes of Germany and surrounding regions until the 1st century BC, and involving themselves in numerous events from Biblical and Classical history. These rulers and their exploits are mostly fictitious, though some are derived from mythological, legendary or historical figures

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_kings_of_the_Angles

MythicalTeutonicRulers.jpg

:yes:

++++++++++++++++++++++

EDIT:

More here (in German):

http://394430.forumromanum.com/member/forum/forum.php?action=ubb_show&entryid=1097346039&mainid=1097346039&USER=user_394430&threadid=2

A quote:

3 Eingeb oder Ingaevon, Amtszeit: 1906-1870 (1912-1872)

Sohn des Mannus oder Ninus -- Asshur - war der deutsche Merkur.

Seine Ehefrau Freia war die deutsche Venus.

(Ingaevon, ruled from 1906-1870, son of Mannus/Ninus -- Asshhur -- was the German Mercury. His wife was Freia, the German Venus.)

.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Well, I also do not want to go into a discussion about religion.

I found something much better to talk about:

According to Johannes Turmair (Bayerische Chronik & Deutsche Chronik) there was a succession of Teutonic kings stretching back to the Great Flood, ruling over vast swathes of Germany and surrounding regions until the 1st century BC, and involving themselves in numerous events from Biblical and Classical history. These rulers and their exploits are mostly fictitious, though some are derived from mythological, legendary or historical figures

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_kings_of_the_Angles

MythicalTeutonicRulers.jpg

:yes:

Abe, I am working on a new eddition of my book. Would you mind if I place your name on it as co-author?

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Abe, I am working on a new eddition of my book. Would you mind if I place your name on it as co-author?

Are you serious??

Well, it's ok with me, but I think co-author is a bit too much of an honour; it's you who wrote the book.

We all, and I mean everybody else here, found things you could certainly use in your book.

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Well, I also do not want to go into a discussion about religion.

I found something much better to talk about:

According to Johannes Turmair (Bayerische Chronik & Deutsche Chronik) there was a succession of Teutonic kings stretching back to the Great Flood, ruling over vast swathes of Germany and surrounding regions until the 1st century BC, and involving themselves in numerous events from Biblical and Classical history. These rulers and their exploits are mostly fictitious, though some are derived from mythological, legendary or historical figures

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_kings_of_the_Angles

MythicalTeutonicRulers.jpg

:yes:

++++++++++++++++++++++

EDIT:

More here (in German):

http://394430.forumromanum.com/member/forum/forum.php?action=ubb_show&entryid=1097346039&mainid=1097346039&USER=user_394430&threadid=2

A quote:

3 Eingeb oder Ingaevon, Amtszeit: 1906-1870 (1912-1872)

Sohn des Mannus oder Ninus -- Asshur - war der deutsche Merkur.

Seine Ehefrau Freia war die deutsche Venus.

(Ingaevon, ruled from 1906-1870, son of Mannus/Ninus -- Asshhur -- was the German Mercury. His wife was Freia, the German Venus.)

.

.

Oh brother, I may not have hit jackpot, but it sure is close:

Het Boek Tuisco: Over de afkomst der Nederlanders - J.W. Richter

And scroll down till you read, "Het Duitse scheppingsverhaal" (the German Creation Story), and then to "24 De naam Tuïsto" (the name Tuisto)...

Gebaseerd op deze oude middeleeuwse documenten heeft Johannes Turmair16 de 'Beierse Kroniek' en de 'Duitse Kroniek' geschreven. Het origineel staat (in oud-Duitse taal) beschikbaar onder Bayerische Chronik ; Buch I17. Een aantal van deze gegevens werd enkele tientallen jaren geleden in het Engels samengevat door Herman L. Hoeh in Compendium of World History by Volume 218. Volgens de Bayerische Chronik; Buch I19 stierf koning Tuisco op een leeftijd van 176 jaar (307 jaar na de zondvloed). Ter ere van deze koning verhieven de mensen hem tot een god en hebben hem een heilig woud in het Nederlandse graafschap Kleef gewijd, dat ongeveer tussen Doesburg (Tuiscoburgum Batavorum) en Duisburg (Tuiscoburgum) aan beide zijden van de Rijn is gelegen.

++++++++++++

EDIT:

For those who don't speak German: start studying that language as soon as you can, lol.

If I can find an online version of that Bayerischen Chronik ("Annales Boiorum") by Johannes Thurmair von Abensberg (“Aventinus”), I will post the link.

.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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In my geology studies many years ago, we were taught the “Principle of Uniformity” which holds that “the present is the key to the past.” That is to say that the processes that are in motion today were also in motion in the distant past.

This is similar to the “Theory of Uniformitarianism” that we find in the Philosophy of Naturalism. This theory assumes that the same natural laws and processes that operate in the universe now, have always operated in the universe in the past and apply everywhere in the universe. It is frequently summarized as "the present is the key to the past," because it holds that all things continue as they were from the beginning of the world.

My contention is that this theory does not only apply to the natural sciences, but also to human behaviour.

Having studied the Oera Linda Book in some detail over the last few years, there are many events in the book that the author(s) describe that tells me they could only describe these if they actually lived through them. The thing is that these were not major historical events or facts, but rather the seemingly casual remarks made in passing. Unless you have experienced this yourself, you would not even notice it.

The OLB describes a few occasions where the Fryan Folk encountered less developed people, settled, tried to educate (and rule them) and then they were kicked out.

Now, when I read this, I cannot help but seeing the similarities with South African history (my “Principle of ‘Human’ Uniformity”).

Please understand that I am not trying to defend or attack anything in S.A. history – I am merely trying to show how human nature has not changed at all over the last few thousand years. From this distance in time, we can now clearly see the picture as it unfolded, but this would not have been possible during the 19th century in the Netherlands.

Let me give a few examples:

In 1652 AD, the Dutch started a halfway station at the Cape of Good Hope (Present day Cape Town) on the Southern tip of Africa, on their long sea voyages between Europe and India. At the time, they had no intention to colonize Africa. Through time, however, the colonists migrated north until they eventually formed the Union of South Africa (under British rule) in1910 and eventually the fully autonomous Republic of South Africa outside the British Commonwealth in 1961. In 1994, the country for the first time became fully democratic by extending the franchise to the majority of the black peoples in the country.

Now let us consider the Oera Linda Book:

1. When Minerva arrived in Attica and started building Athenia, the locals became upset because the “Frisians” did not have slaves. Now why did they react that way? Surely one would have thought that they would have been happy that the Frisians were not about to make slaves of them.

The reason is that the Frisians did not present job opportunities to them. This is something I have encountered countless times in S.A. history and throughout my life. When you start any business in S.A., the locals will only support you, understandably, if you give them employment. If you do not, you will have a fight on your hands.

2. When the Gertmanne were kicked out of Athens, the locals introduced many changes. The most pronounced were the changes in the judicial system. Previously all litigation was done in the “Frisian” language only, then in both Fries and Doric (?) and eventually in the local language only.

Before 1994 in S.A., most state departments, the police, the army, etc, were predominantly Afrikaans. Today the numbers of Afrikaners in these departments are almost non-existent and you will, for most of the time, not be served if you address them in Afrikaans.

3. The OLB describes how the priests and rulers in Athens corrupted the laws after the Gertmanne had left. The same happened in Zimbabwe and all over Africa, and is now happening in South Africa.

4. The Gertmanne in the OLB did not want to live under a foreign government and they chose their own leaders before they were kicked out of Athens.

In S.A. we had the same thing when many people emigrated to Australia, New Zeeland, Canada, etc. The right-wingers in S.A. who could not emigrate, tried to form their own homeland, etc.

In South Africa, Afrikaners are being ridiculed as “Boere” (Farmers) whereas the Frisians that remained in Athens were called “Sea Monsters” (From “Sea Peoples”)

5. When Minnos settled on Crete, the locals wanted democracy. They got it but the rulers soon changed it to suit themselves.

Now think of post-colonial Africa. They all wanted democracy but the tyrants and dictators still rule despite the guise of democracy.

(I am following the events in the Middle East with keen interest)

6. In South Africa, the Afrikaners brought in Apartheid (Separateness) to protect themselves (and their privileged position). I would suggest the same happened in Athens, Crete, India and with the Hyksos in Egypt. That is why they were so resented by the locals. My evidence shows that the descendants of the Gertmanne introduced the Caste system in India. (a different form of Apartheid).

Consider also the privileged positions of the Dutch, British, French, Spanish, Portuguese and German Colonists all over the world until the advent of “Uhuru” in the 1950’s / 1960’s. Even the Australians exploited their indigenous peoples.

I could go on but you will understand what I am trying to say. These subtle and perhaps naïve descriptions is unlikely to have been dreamt up by some hoaxer in the 19th century.

I know it is difficult to visualize or describe the backgrounds in the OLB, but it is these things that convinced me that the OLB is true. With our debate here on UM and my own further investigations, I am even more convinced.

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Oh brother, I may not have hit jackpot, but it sure is close:

Het Boek Tuisco: Over de afkomst der Nederlanders - J.W. Richter

And scroll down till you read, "Het Duitse scheppingsverhaal" (the German Creation Story), and then to "24 De naam Tuïsto" (the name Tuisto)...

Gebaseerd op deze oude middeleeuwse documenten heeft Johannes Turmair16 de 'Beierse Kroniek' en de 'Duitse Kroniek' geschreven. Het origineel staat (in oud-Duitse taal) beschikbaar onder Bayerische Chronik ; Buch I17. Een aantal van deze gegevens werd enkele tientallen jaren geleden in het Engels samengevat door Herman L. Hoeh in Compendium of World History by Volume 218. Volgens de Bayerische Chronik; Buch I19 stierf koning Tuisco op een leeftijd van 176 jaar (307 jaar na de zondvloed). Ter ere van deze koning verhieven de mensen hem tot een god en hebben hem een heilig woud in het Nederlandse graafschap Kleef gewijd, dat ongeveer tussen Doesburg (Tuiscoburgum Batavorum) en Duisburg (Tuiscoburgum) aan beide zijden van de Rijn is gelegen.

++++++++++++

EDIT:

For those who don't speak German: start studying that language as soon as you can, lol.

If I can find an online version of that Bayerischen Chronik ("Annales Boiorum") by Johannes Thurmair von Abensberg (“Aventinus”), I will post the link.

.

.

Not ignoring your post, Alewyn, but I keep finding things...

An English version of that Dutch book, "Het Boek Tuisco", by Richter:

The Sky-God Dyaeus

http://www.scribd.com/doc/15463331/The-SkyGod-Dyaeus

And then something Puzz will be interested in:

The Dutch amber trading routes

http://groups.google.com/group/amber-road/web/the-dutch-amber-trading-routes?version=8&pli=1

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In my geology studies many years ago, we were taught the “Principle of Uniformity” which holds that “the present is the key to the past.” That is to say that the processes that are in motion today were also in motion in the distant past.

This is similar to the “Theory of Uniformitarianism” that we find in the Philosophy of Naturalism. This theory assumes that the same natural laws and processes that operate in the universe now, have always operated in the universe in the past and apply everywhere in the universe. It is frequently summarized as "the present is the key to the past," because it holds that all things continue as they were from the beginning of the world.

My contention is that this theory does not only apply to the natural sciences, but also to human behaviour.

Having studied the Oera Linda Book in some detail over the last few years, there are many events in the book that the author(s) describe that tells me they could only describe these if they actually lived through them. The thing is that these were not major historical events or facts, but rather the seemingly casual remarks made in passing. Unless you have experienced this yourself, you would not even notice it.

The OLB describes a few occasions where the Fryan Folk encountered less developed people, settled, tried to educate (and rule them) and then they were kicked out.

Now, when I read this, I cannot help but seeing the similarities with South African history (my “Principle of ‘Human’ Uniformity”).

Please understand that I am not trying to defend or attack anything in S.A. history – I am merely trying to show how human nature has not changed at all over the last few thousand years. From this distance in time, we can now clearly see the picture as it unfolded, but this would not have been possible during the 19th century in the Netherlands.

Let me give a few examples:

In 1652 AD, the Dutch started a halfway station at the Cape of Good Hope (Present day Cape Town) on the Southern tip of Africa, on their long sea voyages between Europe and India. At the time, they had no intention to colonize Africa. Through time, however, the colonists migrated north until they eventually formed the Union of South Africa (under British rule) in1910 and eventually the fully autonomous Republic of South Africa outside the British Commonwealth in 1961. In 1994, the country for the first time became fully democratic by extending the franchise to the majority of the black peoples in the country.

Now let us consider the Oera Linda Book:

1. When Minerva arrived in Attica and started building Athenia, the locals became upset because the “Frisians” did not have slaves. Now why did they react that way? Surely one would have thought that they would have been happy that the Frisians were not about to make slaves of them.

The reason is that the Frisians did not present job opportunities to them. This is something I have encountered countless times in S.A. history and throughout my life. When you start any business in S.A., the locals will only support you, understandably, if you give them employment. If you do not, you will have a fight on your hands.

2. When the Gertmanne were kicked out of Athens, the locals introduced many changes. The most pronounced were the changes in the judicial system. Previously all litigation was done in the “Frisian” language only, then in both Fries and Doric (?) and eventually in the local language only.

Before 1994 in S.A., most state departments, the police, the army, etc, were predominantly Afrikaans. Today the numbers of Afrikaners in these departments are almost non-existent and you will, for most of the time, not be served if you address them in Afrikaans.

3. The OLB describes how the priests and rulers in Athens corrupted the laws after the Gertmanne had left. The same happened in Zimbabwe and all over Africa, and is now happening in South Africa.

4. The Gertmanne in the OLB did not want to live under a foreign government and they chose their own leaders before they were kicked out of Athens.

In S.A. we had the same thing when many people emigrated to Australia, New Zeeland, Canada, etc. The right-wingers in S.A. who could not emigrate, tried to form their own homeland, etc.

In South Africa, Afrikaners are being ridiculed as “Boere” (Farmers) whereas the Frisians that remained in Athens were called “Sea Monsters” (From “Sea Peoples”)

5. When Minnos settled on Crete, the locals wanted democracy. They got it but the rulers soon changed it to suit themselves.

Now think of post-colonial Africa. They all wanted democracy but the tyrants and dictators still rule despite the guise of democracy.

(I am following the events in the Middle East with keen interest)

6. In South Africa, the Afrikaners brought in Apartheid (Separateness) to protect themselves (and their privileged position). I would suggest the same happened in Athens, Crete, India and with the Hyksos in Egypt. That is why they were so resented by the locals. My evidence shows that the descendants of the Gertmanne introduced the Caste system in India. (a different form of Apartheid).

Consider also the privileged positions of the Dutch, British, French, Spanish, Portuguese and German Colonists all over the world until the advent of “Uhuru” in the 1950’s / 1960’s. Even the Australians exploited their indigenous peoples.

I could go on but you will understand what I am trying to say. These subtle and perhaps naïve descriptions is unlikely to have been dreamt up by some hoaxer in the 19th century.

I know it is difficult to visualize or describe the backgrounds in the OLB, but it is these things that convinced me that the OLB is true. With our debate here on UM and my own further investigations, I am even more convinced.

What you are saying is that people will be people, and so that is proof the OLB is not a hoax/fabulation??

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Well, I also do not want to go into a discussion about religion.

I found something much better to talk about:

According to Johannes Turmair (Bayerische Chronik & Deutsche Chronik) there was a succession of Teutonic kings stretching back to the Great Flood, ruling over vast swathes of Germany and surrounding regions until the 1st century BC, and involving themselves in numerous events from Biblical and Classical history. These rulers and their exploits are mostly fictitious, though some are derived from mythological, legendary or historical figures

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_kings_of_the_Angles

MythicalTeutonicRulers.jpg

:yes:

++++++++++++++++++++++

EDIT:

More here (in German):

http://394430.forumromanum.com/member/forum/forum.php?action=ubb_show&entryid=1097346039&mainid=1097346039&USER=user_394430&threadid=2

A quote:

3 Eingeb oder Ingaevon, Amtszeit: 1906-1870 (1912-1872)

Sohn des Mannus oder Ninus -- Asshur - war der deutsche Merkur.

Seine Ehefrau Freia war die deutsche Venus.

(Ingaevon, ruled from 1906-1870, son of Mannus/Ninus -- Asshhur -- was the German Mercury. His wife was Freia, the German Venus.)

.

.

I forgot to add the most important part.....

This Johannes Thurmair von Abensberg (“Aventinus”) appears to have had a similar motive for writing his alternative history (of Germany and the Germanic peoples) as the ones who wrote the OLB:

Annals of Bavaria (Bayerischen Chronik / Annales Boiorum)

The Annals, which are in seven books, deal with the history of Bavaria in conjunction with general history from the earliest times to 1460, and the author shows sympathy for the Empire in its struggle with the Papacy. He took pains with his work, and to some degree anticipated the modern historiography. Another result of his nonconformity was that the Annals were not published until 1554. Many passages were omitted in this Ingolstadt edition, as they reflected on the Roman Catholics.

A more complete edition was published at Basel in 1580 by Nicholas Cisner. Aventinus, who has been called the "Bavarian Herodotus," wrote other books of lesser importance, and a complete edition of his works was published at Munich (1881–1886).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johannes_Aventinus

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Not ignoring your post, Alewyn, but I keep finding things...

An English version of that Dutch book, "Het Boek Tuisco", by Richter:

The Sky-God Dyaeus

http://www.scribd.com/doc/15463331/The-SkyGod-Dyaeus

And then something Puzz will be interested in:

The Dutch amber trading routes

http://groups.google.com/group/amber-road/web/the-dutch-amber-trading-routes?version=8&pli=1

German:

Die Bayerische Chronik weist noch weitere interessante Details auf. Die erste Karte Bayerns, die Johannes Turmair als Anlage zur Chronik erstellt hat, enthält Hinweise auf Brennernamen. Auf dieser Karte werden die Bewohner der Umgebung Münchens die „Brenni genannt. Die Amper heißt auf dieser Karte noch „Amber und Frauenau wird analog an Braunaw (Braunau/Inn) mit dem Namen „Brauenaw, d.h. Brauenau geführt. Des weiteren erwähnt die Titelbeschriftung dieser Karte die Litauer als Germanenbrüder der Bayern. Somit ist der Bernsteinhandel zum Ende des Mittelalters in Bayern immer noch deutlich präsent. Die Bayerische Chronik legt außerdem einen deutlichen Verband zwischen dem Bernsteinhandel und den deutschen und jüdischen Religionen. Offensichtlich haben die Handelsrouten eine enge Verknüpfung aller beteiligten Völker und deren religiösen Ansichten bewirkt, so daß die Zentren für die androgyne Religion sich überall entlang der Handelsroute ausdehnen konnten.

Johannes Turmair verweist in der Baierischen Chronik auch auf die Unterstützung der Deutschen in der Schlacht um Troja. Deutsche Krieger sollen beim Untergang Trojas auf der Seite der Trojaner gekämpft und danach wohlbehalten aus dem Krieg heimgekehrt sein. Diese Unterstützung kann nur im Rahmen des gemeinsamen Bernsteinhandels verstanden werden.

=

English:

The Bavarian Chronicle has other interesting details. The first map of Bavaria, created by Johannes Turmair as an attachment to the Chronicle, contains references to Brenner names. On this map, the inhabitants in the environment of Munich, the "Brenni" are mentioned. The Amper on this map are still called "Amber", and Frauenau is analog to Braunaw (Braunau) with the name "Brauenaw", ie Brauenau. Furthermore, the title of this map mentions the Lithuanians as brothers of the German Bavarians. Thus, the amber trade at the end of the Middle Ages in Bavaria is still clearly present. The Bavarian Chronicle also produces a significant association between the amber trade and the German and Jewish religions. Obviously, the trade routes created narrow links between all its peoples and their religious beliefs, and caused the centers for the androgynous religion to extend anywhere along the trade route.

In the Bavarian Chronicle Johannes Turmair also points to the support of the Germans in the Battle for Troy. German soldiers were fighting during the fall of Troy on the side of the Trojans, and then returned home safely after the war. This support can only be understood in the context of the common amber trade.

http://394430.forumromanum.com/member/forum/forum.php?action=ubb_show&entryid=1097346039&mainid=1097346039&USER=user_394430&threadid=2

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Hello?? Anyone???

A "Bavarian Herodotus" from the 16th century created a list of Teutonic kings, heroes and rulers, starting right after the Flood, around 2200 BC... "ruling over vast swathes of Germany and surrounding regions"... " fighting on the side of the Trojans".... "involving themselves in numerous events from Biblical and Classical history".... "these rulers and their exploits are mostly fictitious, though some are derived from mythological, legendary or historical figures"... a chronicler having problems with the Pope and the Roman Catholics...

Not one single name (OK, a few do) in that list even sounds similar to what we read in the OLB, but what this Turmair wrote sure as hell looks like a centuries old variation on and precursor of the OLB theme to me.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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My Dear Puzzler,

I have all along tried to keep religion out of this discussion but you seem to come back to it every time. The fact that you will Christianity to be a farce does not make it such.

I have no intention to convert you to Christianity, but I do believe that it is only fair to expect you to have read the Bible before you express an opinion about it. I am not talking here about snippets that you have heard in school, university, anti-Christian web sites, over or during Christmas, etc.

Reading the Bible and understanding it is, of course, two very different things. The Bible consists of 66 books written by numerous authors over a period of more than 2000 years. Many of these authors did not know or read the work of the others. Yet, the central theme about God's involvement and caring for his creation is a common thread throughout the Bible.

Obviously, Christianity had been hijacked, distorted and corrupted by many through the ages and, more often than not, under the guise of Christianity. This still applies to many so-called Christian denominations today. This still does not prove that all ministers of religion are corrupt, as you have now stated a number of times.

The same is happening in Islam where there are very divergent views on their religion (which, interestingly enough, grew out of Judaism and Christianity) – to the extent that they are willing to kill each other over it. Even the OLB complains that the Magyarar stole their religion and corrupted it.

One needs a bit of wisdom to be able to distinguish between truth and fallacy i.r.o. the Bible and Christianity. That you can only do if you know and understand the Bible and its principles, and by comparing it to other religions.

You keep knocking Christianity, but have you ever thought what the world would have been without it?

Where do you find freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of association, democracy, social tolerance, social justice and upliftment, free enterprise, the rule of law, etc., etc., in combination? All these only exist together in Christian or former Christian countries.

Do you think you will be able to criticize the state in many of the countries in the East (China, Russia, Korea, etc.) or do you think you will live to tell the tale if you say anything against Islam in the Middle East? Just this last week they rioted in Afghanistan and killed a number of people, because some misguided priest burned a Koran in America – thousands of kilometers away.

I can assure you that some of the most prominent intellectuals in the world today (including natural scientists) are Christians. Why would you believe their academic credentials if they are such fools as to believe in Christ? Still others, who do not want to acknowledge the existence of God, try to explain the existence of the universe through the theory of "Intelligent Design". Think about it.

Your speculation that the three wise men from the East went to Israel to found a new dispensation is absolutely laughable and ridiculous. For centuries before the birth of Christ, the Jews prophesized the coming of their Messiah. In fact, they still believe that today. The fact that they did not accept Jesus as the Messiah, has nothing to do with the three wise men. From nowhere, you, Puzzler, now make the earth-shattering discovery that has evaded the most brilliant minds throughout the ages.

Just as a little aside: Ignoring Jesus' deity for the moment, what is your opinion about him as a person? After all, the very fiber of Western society can be traced back to him. Therefore, I assume you must have some views about him.

Alewyn I don't understand why you are skirting around religion. After all it is, and has apparently been a major influence on man since well before the age of the written word.

Now I understand you don't wish the thread to degenerate into a punch and counter punch centred around religious belief which is fair enough.However why leave out such a huge piece of history for fear of a perceived idea? I'm sure the moderators on here will control that in any case.

As for myself I understand what the Puzz is saying but of course I've no need to defend her statement in anyway, that's for her to address.

To my mind unearthing where religion strayed from it's path is simple to explain in the extreme.

I firmly believe there are always those who wish to control others for their own gain.

What I object to is the formation of elite bodies within society as they can have an influence beyond their number which leaves them untouched by common law, decency and fairness.

Yet it grows at a pace. It's possibly worse today than ever before. IMO.

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Hello?? Anyone???

A "Bavarian Herodotus" from the 16th century created a list of Teutonic kings, heroes and rulers, starting right after the Flood, around 2200 BC... "ruling over vast swathes of Germany and surrounding regions"... " fighting on the side of the Trojans".... "involving themselves in numerous events from Biblical and Classical history".... "these rulers and their exploits are mostly fictitious, though some are derived from mythological, legendary or historical figures"... a chronicler having problems with the Pope and the Roman Catholics...

Not one single name (OK, a few do) in that list even sounds similar to what we read in the OLB, but what this Turmair wrote sure as hell looks like a centuries old variation on and precursor of the OLB theme to me.

.

Yes Abe I see the parallels between that work and the OLB. Had Johannes Tumair's work been taken seriously we might be discussing that as well.

However I also see Greeks attaching themselves to the Iliad. I see how easily history from the distant past has been funnelled along one path since the time of Alexander the Great but there aren't too many takers with in academic circles are there?

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Yes Abe I see the parallels between that work and the OLB. Had Johannes Tumair's work been taken seriously we might be discussing that as well.

However I also see Greeks attaching themselves to the Iliad. I see how easily history from the distant past has been funnelled along one path since the time of Alexander the Great but there aren't too many takers with in academic circles are there?

I think the 19th century writers of the OLB took Tumair's work "seriouslÿ", LOL !!.

It appears to me that it has been a centuries old tradition to link one's national history to the ancient Greeks and Trojans, or even further back, to Biblical patriarchs.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

OK, here's the list of the Teutonic kings:

All the Terms of Office are in years BC:

1 Tuitsch or Tuisto, son of Noah: Ruler over 32 Counties (??). Term of office: 2214-2038 (2214-1978)

Noah gave him the land between the Don and the Rhine, which was then called Greater Germany. He made Köln-Deutz into his Capital

2 Mannus or Mann, Term of office: 1978-1906 (1978-1912)

Only in 1978 Mannus takes over the government of Western Europe and is the successor to his father Tuitsch.

3 Eingeb or Ingaevon, term of office: 1906-1870 (1912-1872)

Son of Mannus or Ninus - Asshur - was the German Mercury.

His wife Freia was the German Venus.

4 Ausstaeb or Istaevon, term of office: 1870-1820 (1872-1820)

Son of Eingeb. Ausstaeb was the German Mars.

5 Herman, son of Ausstaeb 1820-1757

6 Mers 1757-1711

7 Gampar 711-1667

8 Schwab, father of the Schwabe nation 1667 to 1621

9 Wandler 1621-1580

10 Deuto, father of the Teutonics 1580-1553

11 Alman (Allmann or Altman), the German Hercules. 1553-1489

12 Baier 1489-1429

13 Ingram or Ingramus 1429-1377

14 Adalger or Adelges 1377-1328

15 Larein 1328-1277

16 Ylsing or Ulsing. This is the Trojan

Ulysses of Tacitus. He is also the Greek Odysseus,

of the Atlantic who had been traveling and had visited the Rhine 1277-1224

17 Brenner or Breno, son of Ylsing. 1224-1186

18 Heccar (Hykar or Highter) Brenner's son. He is the

Hector from the first famous Trojan War. 1186-1155

19 Frank (Francus or Franco) 1155-1114

20 Wolfsheim Siclinger 1114-1056

21 Kels, Gal and Hillyr 1056-1006

22 Alber 1006-946

23 Walther, Panno and Scharde 946-884

24 Main, Ängel and Treibl 884-814

25 Myela, Laber and Penno 814-714

26 Venno and Helto 714-644

27 Mader (Madyas) 644-589

28 Brenner II and Koenman. After the death of Koenman the

Bavarians in Italy were led by the following kings: Zeck,

Ber (the founder of Bern or Verona) and Breitmar. 589-479

29 Landein with his sons 479-399

30 Brenner III 399-361

31 Schirm, the son of Brenner III. He and his son Brenner IV

ruled until 60 years after Alexander's death - although Brenner IV

died earlier. Brenner organized a powerful attack on

Greece, looted Macedonia and the oracle

in Delphi but was killed in 279 killed. 361-263

32 Thessel, son of Brenner IV 279-194

33 Dieth I 194-172

34 Baermund and Synpol 172-127

35 Boiger, Kels and Teutenbuecher 127-100

36 Scheirer 100-70

37 Ernst (Arionistus) and Vocho 70-50

38 Pernpeist. After the expulsion from Italy, the Bavarians lived 127 years

on the Drava and Danube. During the rule of Pernpeist

they left their home and settled on the rivers Dniester and Dnieper,

where they were located for about 550 years 50-40

39 Cotz, Dieth II and Creitschir approximately 40-13

40 From this time there is anarchy in the German area, where

the ruling families cancel each other out. The Franks then

take the lead. See: "Compendium", chapter XII A.

http://394430.forumromanum.com/member/forum/forum.php?action=ubb_show&entryid=1097346039&mainid=1097346039&USER=user_394430&threadid=2

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Funny that you should quote (and apparently believe) the little Oera Linda Book, but discard the Bible.

No, it's not really. They are completely different.

I have just spent the last few hours reading more of your book, especially the part from the Persians through to The Homecoming, I liked that part alot and I must commend you again on outstanding research in the historic parts from the later part of the 1st millenium BC, I think what you say makes much sense. It does sound like the Frisians that Tacitus describes and many other parts I really enjoyed reading just then.

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My Dear Puzzler,

I have all along tried to keep religion out of this discussion but you seem to come back to it every time. The fact that you will Christianity to be a farce does not make it such.

I have no intention to convert you to Christianity, but I do believe that it is only fair to expect you to have read the Bible before you express an opinion about it. I am not talking here about snippets that you have heard in school, university, anti-Christian web sites, over or during Christmas, etc.

Reading the Bible and understanding it is, of course, two very different things. The Bible consists of 66 books written by numerous authors over a period of more than 2000 years. Many of these authors did not know or read the work of the others. Yet, the central theme about God’s involvement and caring for his creation is a common thread throughout the Bible.

Obviously, Christianity had been hijacked, distorted and corrupted by many through the ages and, more often than not, under the guise of Christianity. This still applies to many so-called Christian denominations today. This still does not prove that all ministers of religion are corrupt, as you have now stated a number of times.

The same is happening in Islam where there are very divergent views on their religion (which, interestingly enough, grew out of Judaism and Christianity) – to the extent that they are willing to kill each other over it. Even the OLB complains that the Magyarar stole their religion and corrupted it.

One needs a bit of wisdom to be able to distinguish between truth and fallacy i.r.o. the Bible and Christianity. That you can only do if you know and understand the Bible and its principles, and by comparing it to other religions.

You keep knocking Christianity, but have you ever thought what the world would have been without it?

Where do you find freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of association, democracy, social tolerance, social justice and upliftment, free enterprise, the rule of law, etc., etc., in combination? All these only exist together in Christian or former Christian countries.

Do you think you will be able to criticize the state in many of the countries in the East (China, Russia, Korea, etc.) or do you think you will live to tell the tale if you say anything against Islam in the Middle East? Just this last week they rioted in Afghanistan and killed a number of people, because some misguided priest burned a Koran in America – thousands of kilometers away.

I can assure you that some of the most prominent intellectuals in the world today (including natural scientists) are Christians. Why would you believe their academic credentials if they are such fools as to believe in Christ? Still others, who do not want to acknowledge the existence of God, try to explain the existence of the universe through the theory of “Intelligent Design”. Think about it.

Your speculation that the three wise men from the East went to Israel to found a new dispensation is absolutely laughable and ridiculous. For centuries before the birth of Christ, the Jews prophesized the coming of their Messiah. In fact, they still believe that today. The fact that they did not accept Jesus as the Messiah, has nothing to do with the three wise men. From nowhere, you, Puzzler, now make the earth-shattering discovery that has evaded the most brilliant minds throughout the ages.

Just as a little aside: Ignoring Jesus’ deity for the moment, what is your opinion about him as a person? After all, the very fiber of Western society can be traced back to him. Therefore, I assume you must have some views about him.

You don't have to convert me, I already am one (on paper) and I answered your last question here, I thought, before you asked it, in this post...

In saying that I'll also add I was Christened and on that it says I am Church of England.

The OLB tells us Jessos, who I reckon is probably Jesus, was actually very good and spread a good word and that to me is the backbone of what Jesus is about.

The OLB recognises this too by telling us about how the light of Frya and Jessos will be stamped out by these priests.

But when the priests fancy that they have entirely extinguished the light of Frya and Jessos, then shall all classes of men rise up who have quietly preserved the truth among themselves, and have hidden it from the priests.

Essentially the message of Jessos is good but the priests have manipulated it as well.

So, essentially I think again the OLB is true in this regard and if you read what I say correctly you will understand I am in no way putting jesus down at all, in fact, I am applauding him, they place him in the same league as Frya, very high - he was not bad - the manipulators were. The OLB tells us this Alewyn, it tells us this in the part I've highlighted, they took Jesus name and made it what he was not.

You should be listening to what it says, you put so much time into your book.

You, on a few times, condemned me for not knowing aboutreligion but I know quite alot, I have spent my whole life investigating this phenomenom called religion.

You are not hearing me - it is the Catholic priests and Church that I, as well as the OLB are condemning as being the factor that made men think they had to do all this crazy stuff to get the Heaven ---like come off the grass, we go in the ground, end of story. In my opinion anyway, there is nothing else, it's all made up.

It's not Jesus and his original message and the friends he had that CONTINUED TO PREACH HIS MESSAGE - in my opinion, possible ancestors of disciples - but the men who used his name to then create something that wasn't and make people do things they didn't have to.

I'm proud to be Church of England, that is, part of the group that evolved from Henry VIII splitting from that demanding Pope. I also know alot about Elizabeth the First in studies I did in that area and an interest in her and the control the Pope had on her was mind-boggling, I've read her story. Things changed then, and still today we have clashes between Catholics and other groups who chooe to follow Jesus in a lesser way. Christians to me represent people who are looking and finding the true message of Jesus, told TO US IN THE OLB, they are people who are NOT part of the Catholic Church anymore in my eyes and are looking for a way to worship a man who did indeed preach love and peace, humility and compassion - too bad it got mixed up with having to do ridiculously stupid things to find it.

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I am not too sensitive to discuss religion, but I think this thread will derail if we continue talking about it.

I found a list of Teutonic kings, dating from 2200 BC and onwards, and you people are nitpicking about nothing important for this thread.

OK, ok, I know why YOU post what you post, concerning Jessos/Jesus, Puzz.

But I think you understand what this discussion will lead to...

EDIT:

Puzz, if only you were able to read German, you would most certainly LOVE this site:

http://394430.forumromanum.com/member/forum/forum.php?action=ubb_tindex&threadid=2&USER=user_394430

It's the same site I got that kinglist from, and it's all about ancient amber routes in Europe...

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Edit: OK, Ok, last one on this, I've made my point as best I can.

I am not a Christian apparently because I do not practice or believe in this...

belief in God the Father, Jesus Christ as the Son of God and the Holy Spirit

the death, descent into hell, resurrection, and ascension of Christ

the holiness of the Church and the communion of saints

Christ's second coming, the Day of Judgement and salvation of the faithful.

Even though I have a bit of paper that tells me I am one.

So, what is a Christian? Someone who practises the above as defined as being what a Christian should believe in?

Or someone who believes in the message of a genuine man named Jesus, who, whenever he lived, spread a message of love, peace, understanding and compassion of humankind and to each other? His message should transcend all time boundaries, it is universal and I don't need to go to Church to understand this.

I'm sorry that I'm not a Biblical Christian on the outside and no you won't convert me to believe in some hell, resurrection and salvation but I am a true believer of the Word of Christ according to the OLB.

It pegs people in holes, oh, I can only be a believer of Christ if I do A, B and C.

If you wholeheartedly believe the OLB as much as it appears you do Alewyn you will realise this is no one else but Jesus they speak of and you should give it your BEST attention. Not gloss over it as though it wasn't part of the book.

I never got it until I read the OLB, to me it was like a life long revelation had come over me and I understood perfectly how and why we have been under the control of the Church's for thousands of years. Alewyn, you might know plenty about the Bible but do you know the struggles of people like Nicolas Copernicus, Galileo and others who were trying to give us scientific knowledge all this time and having it suppressed because it didn't adhere to the Church's ideas?

Copernicus had to add a note in his book with profuse apologies to the Church and how his work should not be taken as fact before it could be published. :(

Edited by The Puzzler

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I am going to call in the cavalry if you don't stop, LOL.

:w00t:

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