Join the Unexplained Mysteries community today! It's free and setting up an account only takes a moment.
- Sign In or Create Account -
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 12
Riaan

[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood

11,638 posts in this topic

Well, I think it IS important how the coloration of the paper took place. IF it was indeed done by soaking it into tea (or by hanging the papers in an eel smokery, as suggested by others), then they should have found traces of tea or amino acids or whatever, AND that would mean someone did indeed try to create a forgery.

Did you see one of my previous posts on tannin in common ink of the times?

I wonder if it coloured it..seeped

The unused paper was whiter, uncoloured - maybe because it had no ink on it.

I personally think the writing looks like this:

In ancient Rome, atramentum was used. In an article for the Christian Science Monitor, Sharon J. Huntington describes these other historical inks:

About 1,600 years ago, a popular ink recipe was created. The recipe was used for centuries. Iron salts, such as ferrous sulfate (made by treating iron with sulfuric acid), were mixed with tannin from gallnuts (they grow on trees) and a thickener. When first put to paper, this ink is bluish-black. Over time it fades to a dull brown.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ink

----------

The preface of the OLB gives some ideas on the paper.

An introductory letter gives the year 1256 as that

p. vii

in which this manuscript was written by Hiddo overa Linda on foreign paper. Consequently it must have come from Spain, where the Arabs brought into the market paper manufactured from cotton.

On this subject, W. Wattenbach writes in his "Das Schriftwesen im Mittelalter" (Leipzig, 1871), s. 93:—

"The manufacture of paper from cotton must have been in use among the Chinese from very remote times, and must have become known to the Arabs by the conquest of Samarcand about the year 704. In Damascus this manufacture was an important branch of industry, for which reason it was called Charta Damascena. By the Arabians this art was brought to the Greeks. It is asserted that Greek manuscripts of the tenth century written upon cotton paper exist, and that in the thirteenth century it was much more used than parchment. To distinguish it from Egyptian paper it was called Charta bombicina, gossypina, cuttunea, xylina. A distinction from linen paper was not yet necessary. In the manufacture of the cotton paper raw cotton was originally used. We first find paper from rags mentioned by Petrus Clusiacensis (1122-50).

"The Spaniards and the Italians learned the manufacture of this paper from the Arabians. The most celebrated factories were at Jativa, Valencia, Toledo, besides Fabriano in the March of Ancona." *

In Germany the use of this material did not become very extended, whether it came from Italy or Spain. Therefore the further this preparation spread from the East and the adjoining countries, the more necessity there was that linen should take the place of cotton. A document of Kaufbeuren on linen paper of the year 1318 is of very doubtful genuineness. Bodman considers the oldest pure

p. viii

linen paper to be of the year 1324, but up to 1350 much mixed paper was used. All carefully-written manuscripts of great antiquity show by the regularity of their lines that they must have been ruled, even though no traces of the ruled lines can be distinguished. To make the lines they used a thin piece of lead, a ruler, and a pair of compasses to mark the distances.

In old writings the ink is very black or brown; but while there has been more writing since the thirteenth century, the colour of the ink is often grey or yellowish, and sometimes quite pale, showing that it contains iron. All this affords convincing proof that the manuscript before us belongs to the middle of the thirteenth century, written with clear black letters between fine lines carefully traced with lead. The colour of the ink shows decidedly that it does not contain iron. By these evidences the date given, 1256, is satisfactorily proved, and it is impossible to assign any later date. Therefore all suspicion of modern deception vanishes.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/atl/olb/olb02.htm

-----------

Thinking about the paper some more - who would have a lot of paper around in sheets, like book paper?

How about the father of the Grandfather, whose name was Jan, a Book Publisher...? (Info from Otharus)

It could be written up if a hoax by Jan is my guess. His son, Andries, Cornelis' grandfather, is the fervent Frisian holder of the OLB.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Puzz:

"The unused paper was whiter, uncoloured - maybe because it had no ink on it."

Assuming they made a copy in the 19th century, and if the used paper was of the same age as the unused paper, it would have had the exact same color as the unused paper when the manuscript came into the open, and that color would be white. The used paper would not have had the time to change color.

If both the used and unused paper was centuries old, both would have been colored brownish-yellow.

Nowadays we store unused paper in plastic and carton (and in the dark at a certain and constant temperature, in a controlled environment), and that will save it from coloration by aging. Also because of the low acid content of the paper we use nowadays it will not change color easily over time. But in the 19th century the quality of the paper was far less than what we have now, and within a decade you would be able to see a change in color by aging (carbondioxide, moisture), whether it was used or unused.

EDIT:

Btw, I worked for 15 years with paper (printing, cutting, folding), that's after I worked for 10 years in a chemical lab.

.

Edited by Abramelin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Puzz:

"The unused paper was whiter, uncoloured - maybe because it had no ink on it."

Assuming they made a copy in the 19th century, and if the used paper was of the same age as the unused paper, it would have had the exact same color as the unused paper when the manuscript came into the open, and that color would be white. The used paper would not have had the time to change color.

If both the used and unused paper was centuries old, both would have been colored brownish-yellow.

Nowadays we store unused paper in plastic and carton (and in the dark at a certain and constant temperature, in a controlled environment), and that will save it from coloration by aging. Also because of the low acid content of the paper we use nowadays it will not change color easily over time. But in the 19th century the quality of the paper was far less than what we have now, and within a decade you would be able to see a change in color by aging (carbondioxide, moisture), whether it was used or unused.

EDIT:

Btw, I worked for 15 years with paper (printing, cutting, folding), that's after I worked for 10 years in a chemical lab.

.

You said one decade could be enough to change the colour.

If it's Jan's paper - c. 1800, by 1870 or so that's 7 decades to yellow up.

Paper that is kept in a pile will not yellow as much as singled sheets.

----------

If it's older paper, c. 800-1500, I say the written on paper would be browned/yellowed from age plus the tannin dye in the ink, the unusued paper may have yellowed somewhat but would not be affected by tannin dye in the ink as on the written paper.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You said one decade could be enough to change the colour.

If it's Jan's paper - c. 1800, by 1870 or so that's 7 decades to yellow up.

Paper that is kept in a pile will not yellow as much as singled sheets.

----------

If it's older paper, c. 800-1500, I say the written on paper would be browned/yellowed from age plus the tannin dye in the ink, the unusued paper may have yellowed somewhat but would not be affected by tannin dye in the ink as on the written paper.

Yes, ok, "A" change, but with modern paper hardly visible for the socalled 'untrained eye', lol.

True, paper kept in a pile will not yellow as much as single sheets (assuming they were not kept in the dark and under less ideal circumstances), but you will definatively see at least a change in color near the edges of the paper.

Puzz, I have had 2 books of over a 100 years old (a Bible in German, and book from Grimm about fairy tales), and even the unused paper at the beginning and at the end of these books were colored. And back then - that's because of the way they folded and cut the paper - you would have had like 4 to 8 blanco pages (Google 'katern') in the beginning and the end of the book. And even these unused pages had the SAME color as the used (printed) pages.

+++++

EDIT:

You have seen photo-copies of the original papers of the manuscript. If your theory is true, then why are these pages evenly colored on their entire surface?

That has nothing to do with any leaking of the used ink, it's either by oxidation, UV light and carbondioxide, or intentionally by treating it with some substance to make it look older.

I still remember the "good ol' days" when I worked with paper (2 years ago...sigh). IF it was old, you could hear the people working with it cursing from a mile distance, LOL. The ones printing had a bad day, and the ones folding it hated it (and that was me most of the times) The folding was done on a machine, btw, like 20,000 leafs an hour (with GOOD paper, that is).

And another thing: before the (=my) internet era started, I was a very frequent visitor of a famous Dutch second hand book shop - De Slegte - and I have had many really ancient books in my hands (one of my brothers always said I should take sandwiches with me, because I practically lived their during the weekends). I still have an ex-collegue who is into second hand stuff (furniture), and he sometimes gets his hands on old books. He always asks for my advice about what these books could be worth. And I know I have been wrong with my advice to him, but most often I was right).

And I have never seen any centuries old books of which the print had leaked all over the pages as you suggested.

Maybe that happened with the papyrus used by the Egyptians, 3-4000 years ago, but not with what we used in Europe.

.

Edited by Abramelin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

'rs is to raise in Phoenician:

raise (v.)

c.1200, from O.N. reisa "to raise," from P.Gmc. *raizjan (cf. Goth. ur-raisjan, O.E. ræran "to rear," see rear (v.)), causative of base *ris- "to rise" (see rise). At first sharing many senses with native rear (v.). Used in most of the varied modern senses since M.E.; some later evolutions include "to bring up" (a child), 1744; "to elevate" (the consciousness), 1970

We get raise from Old Norse - P.G - raizjan

and

strt = Ashteroth

ʻštrt, Ashtaret [semitic *ʻaṯtar-]

attja - spirit (men) in Sami

Maadteraahka

Etruscan on the Pyrgi Tablets:

Ita tmia icac heramašva vatieχe Unial-Astres, θemiasa meχ θuta.

That temple and these Hermes idols are dedicated to Uni-Astre, built by the clanspeople.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrgi_Tablets

or yrh = month - now that could get confusing...

Uni-Astres = Ashteroth

Unial-Astres seems to denote astras as in stars. Astra/aster = star

Uni was Juno/Hera

Uni, Tinia and Menrva were a Trinity in Etruscan.

Juno, Jove and Athena

The Veientes had Uni, that is, of Veii.

Maybe the OLB writer copied Plutarch hey..?

Plutarch, Life of Romulus, says of them:

The first (to oppose Romulus) were the Veientes, a people of Tuscany (the site is now in Lazio), who had large possessions, and dwelt in a spacious city; they took occasion to commence a war, by claiming Fidenae as belonging to them ....

The Veii people lived in a SPACIOUS city, Roma is an Etruscan word, and Rome and Veii are just on opposite sides of the river Tiber.

This passage corresponds well with the archaeology of Veii: spaciousness and wealth. The historical evidence for Rome and archaeological for Veii indicates they were both formed by conurbation of distinct settlements in that century. Plutarch says that the first Rome "contained no more than a thousand houses," while the population of the plateau at Veii is estimated to have been stable at about 1000

Veii and Rome were both Etruscan named towns. They were spacious according to Plutarch.

I think it's too much of a co-incidence for 2 groups to have come from the area of Troy, apparent refugees - Etruscans and also the line of Rome, from Aeneus of Troy, written about 200BC if that, I think.

Aeneus just happens to get a prophecy and settles Rome, I don't think so.

Bed for me now. My brain has done overtime today.

----

PS: Abe, yep, I'll consider your points on the paper.

Edited by The Puzzler

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Puzz, sorry to say, but all this etymology stuff is like m*as****bating: it's not the real thing, but it satisfies people to some extent.

It doesn't satisfy me in the least.

I want 'meat'.

.

Edited by Abramelin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I found out the ancient Prussians had their own script, a script that is still hard to translate.

A script probably based on runes, and on the Greek and Roman script because they were in close contact with these peoples.

I am feeling a bit 'off' now, but as soon as the clouds disappear, I will post about it.

+++

A preview, and I hope it shows up:

900px-Pru%C3%9Fenschrift.jpg

I know, it looks nothing like the OLB script, but these people, the Prussians ("Phruisians"/Frisians), should have known about the OLB script, right? Being part of the Frya empire and all that? But still they used a script that was TOTALLY different from the OLB script.

THAT should make you wonder, well, it makes ME wonder.

And you all come up with nothing but a LEGO play with words.

Where the hell is Jaylemurph, our resident linguist??

.

Edited by Abramelin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I found out the ancient Prussians had their own script, a script that is still hard to translate.

I wonder how many, and what kind of sources in this script exist.

To me it looks more like a secret (coded) script than one that would be practical to use .

Again, like the old looking pirate maps we made as kids, it reminds me of the sort of coded alfabets we used to create at primary school.

OLB mentions that there were other peoples who had secret scripts, and that it will have been the case is easy to imagine, as sensitive messages sometimes had to be carried through enemy territory, and there have been long periods of war and animosity.

The Jol script is practical and easy to use. I actually find it more easy to imagine that the old Greek and Roman capitals evolved out of it than the other way around, that the ones who 'invented it' used Greek and Roman letters as an example. (But that may be just me.)

Edited by Otharus

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I found out the ancient Prussians had their own script, a script that is still hard to translate.

A script probably based on runes, and on the Greek and Roman script because they were in close contact with these peoples.

I am feeling a bit 'off' now, but as soon as the clouds disappear, I will post about it.

+++

A preview, and I hope it shows up:

900px-Pru%C3%9Fenschrift.jpg

I know, it looks nothing like the OLB script, but these people, the Prussians ("Phruisians"/Frisians), should have known about the OLB script, right? Being part of the Frya empire and all that? But still they used a script that was TOTALLY different from the OLB script.

THAT should make you wonder, well, it makes ME wonder.

And you all come up with nothing but a LEGO play with words.

Where the hell is Jaylemurph, our resident linguist??

.

We don't need him.

Linear A: PA-DE: a theonym (name for a god), appearing on Linear B tablets as well (as pa-de / pa-ze); Cf. Sanskrit pati, lord, Greek Pater, father, master.

Sami: Radien-pardne or Raediengiedte was the son of Radien-attje and Raedieahkka in the Sami mythology.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raediengiedte

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_A

-----------

Radien-Pardne was son of Wralda (Waralden/Radien-Attje) - he was the son of God, with Waralden as God (Jubmal).

Edited by The Puzzler

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is a provisional genealogy of the Over de Linden family.

It is also published on http://fryskednis.blogspot.com/2011/04/over-de-linden-genealogy.html, where it will be updated later.

Genealogy Over de Linden

Sources:

http://home.kpn.nl/hasibu/kws/kofmanr.htm

http://www.rodinbook.nl/stamboom.html

http://www.hjmwijers.nl/be-frag.htm

"De Gemaskerde God", G.Th.Jensma (2004)

= = = = = = = = = = = =

GENERATION 1

I) Jan Anderisz./ Andriesz. OVER DE LINDEN/ OVERLINDE/ OVERLENDE/ OVERDELENDE a.k.a. Jan "de Diender", born 1718/1719, administrator ("klerk") in Leeuwarden (1741), starts a bookshop in 1764 at the Nieuwe Westerstraat in Enkhuizen, died Enkhuizen 10-1-1794 (at Sijbrandsdijk, 78 years old died from 'sinking'-fever), burried there 15-1-1794; testament 25-5-1783 (as "Jan Over Lende")

married 15-8-1745 (announced 24 July) Harlingen to:

Janke/Jantje Johannis/ Hansen/ Hanses VAN DER WOUD, born ca. 1724 (she had a sister named Antje), died Enkhuizen 5-9-1791 (at Sijbrandsdijk, 68 years old, died from the fever)

Children:

1) N.N., born 12-6-1746

2) Johannes (Jan), baptised Enkhuizen 18-9-1752 ==> see II-1

3) Andries, baptised Enkhuizen 15-7-1759 ==>> see II-2

= = = = = =

GENERATION 2

II-1) Johannes/ Jan OVER DE LINDEN II, son of I, baptised Enkhuizen 18-12-1752 (or September?), became member of the church 17-4-1772, booktrader at Venedie in Enkhuizen;

married 15-9-1776 Enkhuizen to:

Wilhelmina ter Beest, baptised 2-5-1753 Enkhuizen, daughter of Gerrit ter Beest (born 1710 Dinxperlo, died 3-3-1782 Enkhuizen, came to Enkhuizen in 1739 from Zwolle) and Judina Geertruida Curtenius (from Amsterdam, born 7-4-1720 Hasselt, died 28-10-1782 Enkhuizen; Curtenius was a family of medical doctors and theologians. She was a daughter of Nicolaas Curtensius and Wilhelmina van Beest.)

Children:

Note: first child was baptised 6 weeks after marriage

1) Johannes (Jan), baptised 27-11-1776 Enkhuizen ==>> see III-1

2) Trijntje, born Enkhuizen ca. 1787, died after 1836 (source: www.hjmwijers.nl)

- - - (brothers)

II-2) Andries OVER DE LINDEN, son of I, baptised Enkhuizen 15-7-1759, master timberman/ naval timberman/ city works, died there 25-4-1820 (at Oude Rietdijk);

married Enkhuizen 27-4/12-5-1782 (young man living at Hoogstraat)

Iefje/ IJfje SCHOLS (young daughter living at Zijbrandsdijk), baptised Enkhuizen 1-8-1762, died there 13-2-1820 (at Nieuwe Rietdijk).

Children, baptised Enkhuizen:

1) Pieter, 13-12-1782 ==>> see III-2

2) Jan, 14-6-1785 ==>> see III-3

3) Gerrit, 25-11-1787

4) Trintje, 29-5-1791, married 29-12-1813 Enkhuizen to Pieter Pijlsteker, born 1788 Amsterdam

5) Antje, 2-1-1795 ==>> see III-4

6) Aafje, 13-5-1798 ==>> see III-5

= = = = = =

GENERATION 3

III-1) Johannes/ Jan OVER DE LINDEN III, son of II-1, born 27-11-1776 Enkhuizen, book printer, binder and trader (mentioned in documents dated 10-6-1827, 29-7-1826, 18-5-1828 and 30-6-1839), died 16-1-1858 Enkhuizen

married to:

Johanna Bikkenhorst, born ca. 1786

Children:

1) Johannis, born 2-10-1803 ==>> see IV-1

2) Adrianus, born 6-9-1807, married to Petronella Heiman, born 25-3-1808

3) Jantje, born 1-2-1811, married to Dirk Bloemendaal, born 2-9-1805

- - - cousins to 1st degree

III-2) Pieter OVER DE LINDEN, son of II-2, born Enkhuizen 8-12-1782 (baptised 13-12);

married 6-1-1810 Enkhuizen to:

Elisabeth/ Lijsbeth Pieters de Boer, from Enkhuizen

Children:

1) Andries, born 31-10-1810 Enkhuizen

2) Trijntje, born 26-11-1811 Enkhuizen, married 1-9-1839 Enkhuizen to Melchert/ Melgert Swart, born Feb.1792 Enkhuizen

- - - brothers

III-3) Jan OVER DE LINDEN, son of II-2, born 14-6-1785, died 1835/1836, naval timberman in Enkhuizen;

married to:

Antje Goedmaat (1784-1874)

Jan O.L. did not practice religion, but A.G. was orthodox calvinist and changed religion at age 85 or 86! (source: Menno Knul)

Children:

1) Cornelis, born 11-1-1811 Enkhuizen ==>> see IV-2

2) ?

- - - brother/sister

III-4) Antje OVER DE LINDEN, daughter of II-2, baptised or born 2-1-1795 Enkhuizen, seamstress, died 6 or 7-9-1882 Enkhuizen;

married 21-4-1813 Enkhuizen to:

Pieter van Doornik, born ca. 1795 Enkhuizen, died 20-11-1855 Enhuizen, bricklayer (son of Jan Pz. van Doornik and Wijntje Vis)

This family was Dutch Reformed (Ned.Hervormd) and lived at Nieuwe Rietdijk (1829), Nieuwe Zeedijk 390 (1840), Antje as widow at Nieuwe Westerstraat (1882).

Children called van Doornik:

1) Jan, born ca. 1815 Enkhuizen, ==>> see IV-3

2) IJfjen

3) Andries, born ca. 1821 Enkhuizen, died 1-1-1860 Enkhuizen, married 29-8-? Enkhuizen to Jannetje Bouwman

4) Simon, born ca. 1822 Enkhuizen, labourer, married (1st) 29-10-1848 Enkhuizen Magdalena Roosendaal, maid (born ca. 1825, died 15-4-1856 Enkhuizen); married (2nd) 12-11-1857 Grietje Bakker, born 2-10-1830 Urk.

5) Aafje

6) Hendrik, born ca. 1827 Enkhuizen, bricklayer, moved to Oudendijk in 1852.

7) Wijntje/ Weintje, born 18-9-1829 Enkhuizen; married (1st) 16-10-1851 Tjalling van Marle (born ca.1829 Enkhuizen, died 23-11-1868 Enkhuizen, son of Wouter van Marle and Gerritje Harlaar); married (2nd) 2-11-1876 Enkhuizen Cornelis bakker (born 1833 Enkhuizen, son of Albert Bakker and Johanna Hulst, widower of Antje van Marle)

8) Roelof, born 8-10-1833 Enkhuizen; married to Dikje Klok (born 26-2-1827 Kwadijk, died 16-3-1861 Enkhuizen, she left to Oudendijk in 1854?)

9) Pieter, born 29-11-1835 Enhuizen

- - - sisters

III-5) Aafje OVER DE LINDEN, daughter of II-2, baptised Enkhuizen 13-5-1798, dealer in used goods (1846), died there 4-2-1849 (at Nieuwe Rietdijk).

married (1st) Enkhuizen 27-5-1821 ( * see note 1)

Hendrik REUVERS, born/baptised Enkhuizen 20/29-1-1796 ('Spurius'?), son of Cornelia Brouwer and unknown father, assistant of cheese trader, died there 15-2-1845 (at Nieuwe Rietdijk) ( * see note 2);

married (2nd) Enkhuizen 20-12-1846

Koop Simonsz. Meijlof/ Meylhoff (from Enkhuizen) born ca. 1804, died ca. 1875, labourman (1846), dealer in used goods (1849), son van Sijmon Meijlof and Martje Broek. He remarried Enkhuizen 5-8-1849 Geertjen de Graaf, born ca. 1810, daughter of Cornelis de Graaf and Antje Bijkerk.

( * note 1)

witnesses to this marriage (among others): Cornelia Brouwer, mother of te groom, and Jan over de Linden, cousin of the bride. According to the wedding certificate, Hendrik Reuvers was a 'natural son' of Cornelia Brouwer (that means she was not married). The document also shows the names of two children from Aafje that were accepted by Hendrik: Cornelia (see IV) and Andries, born 15-10-1820.

( * note 2)

According to the death certificate, Hendrik Reuvers was a "son of Hendrik Reuvers and Cornelia Brouwer, a married couple living in Enkhuizen". This was probably a lie, since no marriage of Hendrik Reuvers and Cornelia Brouwer can be found in Enkhuizen. On 4-11-1797 Cornelia Brouwer did marry though, with Cornelis Willemsz. Bakker.

Children called Reuvers:

1) Cornelia/ Kee, born Enkhuizen 12-9-1818 (father unknown?) ==>> see IV-4

2) Andries, born Enkhuizen 15-10-1820 (father unknown?)

= = = = = =

GENERATION 4

IV-1) Johannis/ Jan OVER DE LINDEN IV, son of III-1, born 2-10-1803, book printer, binder and trader at Venedie in Enkhuizen,

married to:

Antje Kramer, born 1-7-1801

Child:

1) Willem, born ca. 1829 ==>> see V-1

- - - cousins to 2nd degree

IV-2) Cornelis OVER DE LINDEN I, son of III-3, born 11-1-1811 Enkhuizen, died 22-2-1874 Den Helder, naval timberman, shipbuilder, worked for Royal Navy in Den Helder;

married (1st) 1833 to:

Trijntje Johanna Visser, born 21-3-1804, midwife, died 31-12-1861, widow of a scotsman George Pieter May.

married (2nd) 14-5-1863 Den Helder to:

Geertruida van der Burg, born 1834 Den Haag, daughter of Hendrik van der Burg and ... Meel. She was widow of Nicolaas Nieuwenhout and remarried after 1874 to Christiaan de Groot Viertelhauzen.

Children from 1st marriage:

1) Cornelis II, born 5-10-1833 Amsterdam ==> see V-2

2) Antoon Cornelis, born 18-1-1836 Den Helder, died there 22-2-1836

3) Leendert Floris, born 17-3-1837 Den Helder ==>> see V-3

4) Hendrika, born ca. 1841 Den Helder ==>> see V-4

5) Anton Jan, born ca. 1843 Den Helder, Royal Navy machinist; married 9-2-1847 Den Helder to Antje Verfaille, daughter of Jacob Verfalje and Jannetje Rab

6) Anna, born 1845 Den Helder, married 24-12-1866 Den Helder to Nicolaas Matthijs Bergman, teacher, born 1839 Amsterdam, son of Adrianus Bergman and Frederika Elisabeth Borrenberg

- - - cousins to 1st degree

IV-3) Jan VAN DOORNIK, son of III-4, born ca. 1815 Enkhuizen, died before 1888, bricklayer, Dutch Reformed;

married 20-10-1833 Enkhuizen to:

Grietje Jongejeugd, born 27-6-1815 Andijk, died 2 or 3-2-1888 Enkhuizen, daughter of Simon Jongejeugd and Engeltje Groen. This family lived at Hoenderpad (1836), Hennegat (1840), Zuiderhavendijk (1866) and Grietje as widow at Wortelmarkt (1888).

Children, born Enkhuizen:

1) Antje, 20-1-1836; married 15-5-1856 Enkhuizen to Johannes Roosendaal (born 5-2-1833 Enkhuizen, son of Jan Roosendaal and Hendrica van Bogel)

2) Engeltje, 11-3-1838; married 6-11-1862 Enkhuizen to Cornelis Mens/Mensch van den Berg, labourer (born 1830 Enkhuizen, son of Jan Mensch and Leepje Zwier)

3) Petronella, 11-11-1839

4) Simon, ca. 1842, died 27-7-1851 Enkhuizen

5) Iefje, ca. 1844

6) Hendrik, ca. 1848, bricklayer; married 27-3-1873 Enkhuizen to Aafje Karemaker, born 1855 Enkhuizen, daughter of Jan Karemaker (fish dealer) and Alida Horsman

7) Sijtje, 17-2-1851

8) Simon, 15-3-1853, died 26-7-1866 Enkhuizen

9) Andries, 25-2-1855, labourer; married 27-4-1876 Enkhuizen to Femmetje Post, born 1849 Urk, daughter of Albert Post (fisherman) and Marretje Timmerman

10) Pieter, 8-9-1858, died 22-7-1866 Enkhuizen

- - - cousins to 1st degree

IV-4) Cornelia/ Kee REUVERS, daughter of III-5, born Enkhuizen 12-9-1818 ("at Sijbrandsdijk, daughter of Aafje over de Linden, maid, reported by the midwife"), accepted as a child by Hendrik Reuvers at the marriage of her mother at 27-5-1821, died Enkhuizen 3-3-1878 (at Nieuwe Rietdijk).

married Enkhuizen 5-8-1838 ( * see note)

Rijkent KOFMAN, born Enkhuizen 2-6-1820, timberman, died there 19-6-1861.

( * note)

Witnesses at the marriage (giving permission): Jacob Kofman, 49 years old, father of the groom, Trijntje Frankfort, 48 years old, mother of the groom, Hendrik Reuvers, 42 years old, father of the bride, and Aafje over de Linden, 39 years old, mother of the bride.

The marriage certificate also says: The bride, whose father was not mentioned at her birth, was accepted at the marriage of her mother in Enkhuizen at 27 May 1821 by Hendrik Reuvers.

Het gezin woonde eerst op de Rietdijk, later op de Vischmarkt (BR 11, fol. 23).

Children called Kofman:

1) Jacob, born Enkhuizen 1-10-1843 ==>> see V-5

2) Hein, born 1853, died 1933. He accused Cornelis Over de Linden of having stolen the OLB from his grandmother. (Source: Menno Knul)

= = = = = =

GENERATION 5

V-1) Willem OVER DE LINDEN, son of IV-1, born ca. 1829, book printer/ binder and trader in Enkhuizen (he moved the bookshop from Venedie to Oude Westerstraat in 1870 and was mentioned in documents 30-6-1839, 13-6-1867, 8-7-1875 and 6-10-1887), died before 4-4-1896;

married 30-6-1839 Enkhuizen to

Jacoba Neever/Niever, born ca. 1829, died before 23-6-1887

Children:

1) Johanna, born ca. 1839, married to Simon Bok, born ca. 1849

2) Maria, born ca. 1849, [Menno Knul's website says she also married to Simon Bok]

3) Aafje, born ca. 1854, married to Pieter Bais, born ca. 1850, book trader and publisher

- - - cousins to 3rd degree

V-2) Cornelis OVER DE LINDEN II, son of IV-2, born 5-10-1833 Amsterdam, teacher, left to the Dutch Indies in 1853, where he died in 1868.

Married 4 or 10-4-1856 Den Helder to:

Margaretha Krul, born 26-3-1834 Den Helder, died at the same time and place as her husband, daughter of Nicolaas (Klaas) Krul and Bregitte Cecilia Simons Krul

Children:

after the death of their parents they were raised by their grandfather Cornelis and his second wife in Den Helder

1) Cornelis Nicolaas Anthon, born 6-10-1857 Soerabaja ==>> see VI-1

2) Bregetha Froukje Catharina, born ca. 1859 Ternate (?) ==>> see VI-2

3) Floris August, born 22-5-1863 Soerabaja, died ca. 1910, married to ...? The name of his widow's maid was Riek Mulder-Pomper

- - -brothers

V-3) Leendert Floris OVER DE LINDEN, son of IV-2, born 17-3-1837 Den Helder, teacher, later working for Navy and city of Den Helder respectively, died 1919;

married (1st) 26-4-1863 Schagen to:

Jantje de Rooij, born 1837 Schagen, daughter of Albertus de Rooij (born ca.1810 Alkmaar, died 10-2-1864 Schagen, teacher, son of Hendrik de Rooij and Suzanne Koot), and Antje Walig (born 11-4-1814 Schagen, died before 1841 Schagen, daughter of Simon Walig and Jantje Reins Swaal);

married (2nd) to:

R. Kooiman ?

no children

- - -brother/sister

V-4) Hendrika OVER DE LINDEN, daughter of IV-2, born ca.1841 Den Helder;

married 18-4-1865 Den Helder to:

Albertus Hendrikus van Heusden, born ca.1835 Amsterdam, son of Gerrit van Heusden and Johanna Kortman

(married 2nd to N.M. Bergman?)

Children, called van Heusden:

1. Cornelis, born ca. 1871 Amsterdam ==>> see VI-1 (Johanna Wilhelmina)

2. Alberta Hendrika, born ca.1877 Amsterdam ==> see VII-1

- - - cousins to 2nd degree

V-5) Jacob KOFMAN, born Enkhuizen 1-10-1843, timberman, died there 16-6-1911;

married Enkhuizen 17-9-1863

Hendrika Greiner, born Enkhuizen 5-2-1842, daughter of Johannes Greiner and Antje Blom.

The family lived at the Noorderhavendijk, Oude Doelen and Torenstraat respectively, and was Dutch Reformed (Nederlands Hervormd), later Apostolic. Het civil register mentions him as 'leader of the holy apostolic mission community' ("Voorganger bij de Heilige Apostolosche Zending Gemeente"). According to the death certificate he was a clergyman ("Geestelijke").

Child called Kofman:

1) Keetje

= = = = = =

GENERATION 6

VI-1) Cornelis Nicolaas Anthon/ Cornelis III OVER DE LINDEN, son of V-2, born 6-10-1857 Soerabaja, Navy machinist, police officer (?) in Hellevoetsluis/ Amsterdam, died 7-11-1934;

married 17-1-1883 Den Helder to:

Martje Adriana van Vliet, born ca. 1859 Den Helder, daughter of Pieter van de Vliet and Johanna Wilhelmina Tegel

Children:

1) Cornelis IV, born ca. 1884 Amsterdam ==>> see VII-1

2) Johanna Wilhelmina, born ca. 1890 Den Helder, died before 1935; married (1st) 28-5-1915 Den Helder to Cornelis van Heusden (1871-1935) coffee trader, cabinet-maker, son of Hendrika OVER DE LINDEN (see V-4); married (2nd) 3-11-1904 to Gerardus Nobbes, born ca.1853 Den Helder, son of Jan Nobbes and Catharina de Graaf, timberman

- - - brother/sister

VI-2) Bregetha Froukje Catharina/ Brecht OVER DE LINDEN, daughter of V-2, born ca. 1859 Ternate (?);

married (1st) 10-5-1882 Den Helder to:

Francois Gustaaf Adolf Wissel, born ca.1856 Vlissingen (son of Francois Wilhelm Wissel), Navy machinist;

divorced 30-3-1903;

married (2nd) to: ?

children from 1st marriage, named Wissel:

1) Cornelis Leendert Anton, born ca.1887 Den Helder, first hotelchef

2) Leonardus Johannes Willem, born ca.1889 te Den Helder

= = = = = =

GENERATION 7

VII-1) Cornelis OVER DE LINDEN IV, son of VI-1, born 12-12-1883 Den Helder, died 7-10-1958 Amsterdam,

Police chief-inspector;

married 30-4-1909 Den Helder to:

Alberta or Albertina Hendrika van Heusden, born 8-7-1876 Amsterdam, died 14-10-1959, daughter of Albertus Hendrikus van Heusden (born ca. 1835 Amsterdam, son of Gerrit van Heusden and Johanna Kortman), and Hendrika over de Linden, born ca. 1841 Den Helder, daughter of Cornelis over de Linden I and Trijntje Johanna Visser.

no children

= = = = = = = = = = = =

The OLB-manuscript was passed on:

(1 and 2 are according to Cornelis Over de Linden I)

1) in or before 1820 by Andries Over de Linden (Enkhuizen) to his daughter:

2) Aafje Meylhof-Over de Linden (Enkhuizen) who in 1848 handed it over to:

3) Cornelis Over de Linden I, who in 1874 (Den Helder) left it to his son:

4) Leendert Floris Over de Linden, who in 1919 (Den Helder) left it to the grandson of his brother:

5) Cornelis Over de Linden IV (Amsterdam), who handed it over in 1938 to the Provincial Library of Friesland (now "Tresoar").

Note: Jensma has spoken with descendants H.J. Over de Linden (Weesp) and Otto van Heusden (Voorschoten), who "both intensively studied the family history".

Edited by Otharus

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Justinian mosaic - 380px-Justinian_mosaik_ravenna.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sardinia

SARDinia, thought it sounded a bit like Sfard, black, maybe Sardinia had some sort of Lydia relationship. in fact, Sardinia was first settled by people from Etruria region, it says probable, then the Phoenicians arrived, they needed some bases there, for their N.W Med. Sea trade. On Sardinia we have a mix of original Tuscans and Phoenicians.

Sardinia is one of the most geologically ancient bodies of land in Europe. Though evidence of human visits date from the Palaeolithic period, permanent settlements only appear much later in the Neolithic age, around 6000 BC.

Giants' grave in Dorgali (pic) The first people to settle in northern Sardinia probably came from the Italian mainland via Corsica, particularly from Etruria (present-day Tuscany), while those who populated the central region of the island around the salt lakes of Cabras and St Giusta may have arrived from the Iberian Peninsula by way of the Balearic Islands. The settlements founded around the Gulf of Cagliari seem to be of various origins.

Evidence of trade with Aegean (Eastern Mediterranean) centres is present in the period 1600 BC onwards; for example fine ceramic products from Cydonia have been recovered in Sardinia.[citation needed] As time passed, the different Sardinian peoples appear to have became united in language and customs, yet remained divided politically as various small, tribal groupings, at times banding together, and at others waging war against each other. Habitations consisted of round thatched stone huts, similar to those of present-day shepherds.

Nuraghe LosaFrom about 1500 BC onwards, villages were built around the round tower-fortresses called nuraghi (Northern Sardinian nuraghes, Southern Sardinian nuraxis, plurals of nuraghe and nuraxi respectively), which were often reinforced and enlarged with battlements. The boundaries of tribal territories were guarded by smaller lookout nuraghi erected on strategic hills commanding a view of other territories. Today some 7,000 nuraghi dot the Sardinian landscape. According to some scholars the nuragic peoples are identifiable with the Shardana, a tribe of the "Sea Peoples".

Round, thatched huts are typical of the Romulus huts of Latium, which defines them from the Etruscans.

The Sardinians may be the Shardana, of the Sea People. Trade on Sardinia with eastern Aegean from c. 1600BC.

sard - from a pre-Roman word, would seem it would be an Etruscan word then, if they were there first and possibly named it, it's not a Roman word.

So, I'm thinking, well that's strange, here we have a Sard, like Sfard, inhabited by Etruscans, supposedly from Lydia...

This popped out at me: :w00t:

Carnelian/Sard:

The word carnelian is derived from the Latin word caro, carnis meaning flesh, in reference to the flesh color sometimes exhibited.[6] According to Pliny the Elder, sard derives its name from the city of Sardis in Lydia, but it more likely comes from the Persian word سرد sered, meaning yellowish-red.

So, which one?...or do they really just mean the same thing -- Sard is an orange-red to brownish-red - both sered AND schwarz

Sfard

Carnelian & Sard: Sard

Color Lighter, with shades ranging from orange to reddish-brown. -- Darker, with shades ranging from a deep reddish-brown to almost black

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnelian

Sard could then really mean blackish, dark colour. Sard, Sfard, Sardis

So then I find Schwarz is not really 'black'- Black is black, schwarz is 'black, DARK - which is also now black.

The word black comes from Old English blæc ("black, dark", also, "ink"), from Proto-Germanic *blakkaz ("burned"), from Proto-Indo-European *bhleg- ("to burn, gleam, shine, flash"), from base *bhel- ("to shine"), related to Old Saxon blak ("ink"), Old High German blah ("black"), Old Norse blakkr ("dark"), Dutch blaken ("to burn"), and Swedish bläck ("ink"). More distant cognates include Latin flagrare ("to blaze, glow, burn"), and Ancient Greek phlegein ("to burn, scorch"). Black supplanted the wonted Old English word sweart ("black, dark"), which survives as swart, swarth, and swarthy (compare German schwarz and Dutch zwart, "black").

Weird that Pliny would say that sard was named after Sardis - Sfard either then can transfer to SERED, which means yellow-red not actually black or sweart/swarthy - black, dark red is actually SFARD/Schwarz.

Swart - skin of a dark colour - swarthy

swart [swɔːt], swarth [swɔːθ]

adj

Archaic or dialect swarthy

[Old English sweart; related to Old Frisian swart, Old Norse svartr, Old High German swarz black

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/swart

So, SFARD is named after swart - swarthy - blackish, I think SARD is the same colour - carnelian is light, sard is dark.

SFARD = dark colour = SARD = Sardis S(ph)arda - (Gk) Spart - (Pers) spard - (Lyd) sfard - (O.N)svart - (G)swart Old Norse -svartr

or Sard the stone can mean SERED in Persian which is like s-r-d

I know Sari is yellow in Farsi and red sounds like it's in there - like sa-red or something so I don't think it actually equals sfard UNLESS yellow red SERED also equals SFARD dark red/black/swarthy.

Erythros is red in Greek. Rose actually means flower, not red. Rose does not come from rus or any other word like that -

The name rose comes from French, itself from Latin, rosa, which was borrowed from Oscan, from Greek ρόδιόν rhodion (Aeolic υρόδιόν wrodion), from Old Persian wurdi "flower" (cf. Avest. warda, Sogdian ward, Parthian wâr)

Polish for red is RUMIANY - that is RUM - Breten has RUZ

RUSSET is a colour that is brown with a red/yellow tinge - like Sered - remember red/yellow

russet

mid-13c., "cloth of reddish-brown color" (sense of the color itself is first recorded early 15c.), from O.Fr. rousset, from rosset (adj.) "reddish," dim. of ros, rous "red," from L. russus, related to ruber "red," from PIE *reudh- "red" (see red).

Through Russet we can have red and ros from rosset from russus in Latin which as a relative word to ruber (ruby) -red from Reudh

Rose, ros, the colour comes from russet, red.

Rose, the flower comes from flower but in Latin the word rosa was used for rhodion/wurdi (flower).

The Ras (Etruscans) then could mean the ros, the colour from red through russet - from PIE reudh

EtRUScans - RUS - reds, russets.?

Grapes grown, wine-making in Italy - red wine - Róse - for RUS/ROS coloured grapes - purple/red - that reminds me another close culture to them, the Phoenicians. I'll be following that thru more.

--------------

I think the Sfards are dark-skinned - dark coloured - not black as such but swarthy skinned. Swarthy is not usually used for any other definition than to describe someone's skin. He had a swarthy complexion.

Dark-faced Pelops (of Lydia)

In Greek mythology, Pelops (Greek Πέλοψ, from pelios: dark; and ops: face, eye), was king of Pisa in the Peloponnesus. He was the founder of the House of Atreus through his son of that name.

PELios actually means DARK in Greek. Pelasgians would be swarthy (dark) skinned men imo. The Lydians (Pelasgians) were in Greece before the Greeks, weren't they? Since Agamemnons family came from Lydia and his ancestor was dark faced and these people would actually be in Greece if the myths belie the truth. Also, now it makes sense, the Athenians were also Pelasgians but changed their speech to Ionic - they took on new ways and speech, had the Pelasgian Hermes, not Egyptian one, but were the same people as the Dorians. Athena Doric helmet then makes sense.

Pelasgians also bought into Samothrace the Hermes with the big 'club' lol, Otharus will know where I got that one from - hey, who else carries a big club? Heracles. But I'll leave that for now.

Pelops - Pelasgians - how did I miss that one..???

Plouto - Tantalis mother was an Oceanid.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It won't now let me edit that post but I want to clarify the picture.

The shield is 6-spoked.

That is what I first noticed about the picture.

The info on Sardinia is not really mean to tie in the shield to anything, it was 2 seperate things.

The shield of Justinians men (Roman Empire) is 6-spoked.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for that Otharus, very interesting to know so much about them like that.

-----------

Poseidon + Athena in Libya - part of the Maxyes (Meshwesh) myth is a tradition associated with Athena. They now wear Greek attire but Herodotus ponders what they wore before the Greeks came...this implies that they did the same tradition BEFORE any Greeks arrived.

Poseidon + Athena came in from Libya via Crete (Plato)

Legend has Triton and Pallas also in Libya with Athena accidently killing Pallas in weapon games, possibly a similar tradition to whatever these Maxyes women were doing. A wooden idol was created in memory of Pallas and called the Pallas-Athena, the Palladium. It was this idol that was the beginning of Troy as it was built where it had fallen from the sky..and it had to be taken also to ensure that Troy would fall.

So, if Athena came in from Libya, she was in Troy and then into Greece.

This is the same track I am going to take the Lydians.

From the Libu, allies of the Meshwesh (Ma). Sheshonq I was a Meshwesh and took control of Egypt c. 900BC - by the Libyans. Meshwesh were of Cyrenaica. Their names are Libyo-Berber origin.

Scholars believe it would be the same tribe called Mazyes by Hektaios and Maxyes by Herodotus, while it was called "Mazaces" and "Mazax" in Latin sources. All those names are similar to the name used by the Berbers for themselves, Imazighen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meshwesh

Imazighen then means something like free, noble. They could be the Amazons who also fought the Greeks and that Priam fought against too. Dark, women warriors -Athena does look like a warrior really with her spear - and also the story of her childhood with Pallas. It is not unlikely therefore imo that Athena was a woman Imazighen warrior.

This does not fit the OLB at all really. So, I wonder how it could - possibly that Nyhellenia is actually MINERVA first - then Athena. Min-erva, daughter of Hellenia - Nyhellenia.

menrva is in Etruria and a bit different to Athena. Anyway.... (will work on that one)

References to Libyans are references to the Meshwesh and Libu. LW sound also applies to them.

The Libu (, R'bw, Ribou, Labu Laguatan, or Lwatae) were an ancient Berber tribe, from which the name Libya derives.

Their occupation of ancient Libya is first attested in ancient Egyptian texts from the New Kingdom, especially from the Ramesside Period. The earliest occurrence is in a Ramses II inscription.[1] There were no vowels in the Egyptian script. The name Libu is written as LBW or RBW in Egyptian hieroglyphs. In the Great Karnak Inscription Merneptah describes how hostilities between Egypt and Libya broke out and how the Libyans were defeated [2]. Ramses III defeated the Libyans in the 5th year of his reign, but six years later the Libyans joined the Meshwesh and invaded the western Delta and were defeated again [3]. Libu appears as an ethnic name on the Merneptah Stele, also known as the Israel Stele[4] Afterward, the name appeared repeatedly in other pharaonic records.

This name Libu was taken over by the Greeks of Cyrenaica, who co-existed with them.[5] Geographically, the name of this tribe was adopted by the Greeks for "Cyrenaica" as well as for northwestern Africa in general. Later, the name appeared in the Hebrew language, written in the Bible as Lehabim and Lubim, indicating the ethnic population and the geographic territory as well

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libu

Primarily raiders.

During the reign of Merneptah it seems that the early warning system from his father's time had fallen into disrepair as there was an unexpected Libyan invasion into the Nile Delta and the Western Oases in Year 5 of his reign. Unlike his predecessors, Merenptah states in his battle reliefs at Karnak that it was primarily the Libu tribe who led the conflict, but that Meshwesh and Sea People allies were also involved. Indeed, Merenptah claims that "9,100 swords of the Meshwesh" were captured. (This conflict is also described on the Merneptah Stele, also known as the Israel Stele.)

Siwa Oasis in Libya, now Western Egypt.

Palm Land, see all the palms

300px-Oase_Siwa.jpg

Greek settlers at Cyrene made contact with the oasis around the same time (7th century BC), and the oracle temple of Amun (Greek: Zeus Ammon), who, Herodotus was told, took the image here of a ram.

Amun/Ammon - Zeus Ammon was taken to Greek in this ram form from this place, by Phoenicians.

I think the Siwa Oasis might be Palm Land, Phonisia. It was a centre for palm oil and huge vats of it can be found on Crete, more than likely from Palm Land, someone was trading this stuff to Crete, maybe the Phoenicians since they also took the Oracle to Greece. Phonisia.

The Golar weren't taking those captives to Phoenicia, they were banished to the Siwa Oasis. It was still used as a place of banishment in later years...

The Romans later used Siwa as a place of banishment

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siwa_Oasis

The people in Greece had a thunder God but he didn't have a name or symbolism, so from Egypt they gave him the Ammon/ram - Deus - Latin for God or deity, Gk> Zeus - dzeus

and the Ram as his symbol, so from then on, the thunder God became named Zeus as for Ammon, the deity.

Many believe that Sanskrit Dev is the root for Deus.

Ammon would only see Heracles once he put a Ram fleece on - so Heracles couldn't tell who he was. Heracles visiting may have been a Phoenician of some sort in the Oasis at the time.

--------------

Maybe sometimes things stick out, I couldn't help but notice how the Persian symbol looked like a 6-spoked wheel but in the shape of an eagle - his head, tail, wings and legs spread out to look like it to me.

125px-Standard_of_Cyrus_the_Great_%28White%29.svg.png

But anyway, while I was looking at some Old Persian words I noticed this one:

"Sometimes, both Median and Old Persian forms are found, which gave Old Persian a somewhat confusing and inconsistent look: 'horse,' for instance, is [attested in Old Persian as] both asa (OPers.) and aspa (Med.)."

Horse is asa. Hmm. This really stuck out at me.

As a ryans rians - could be horse men. A(sa)ryans. Just playing there.. :ph34r:

Could be the Aesir were from the land of horses (Asaland) and who else were excellent horse-riders? Assyrians, with their archers...and chariot.

OK. Asa = horse. Asaland - land of the horses. Laomedon had horses, they were so nice his horses. Philip, a typical Macedonian name means Horse friend. But the best one is the very last words of The Iliad..

Hector - tamer of horses.

Didn't Snorri say Asaland was Troy, yes, he did.

Edited by The Puzzler

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Joel Vandemaele suggested that the Belgians owe their name to the Pelasgians.

Can you shine your light on this, Puzzler (or anyone else)?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Joel Vandemaele suggested that the Belgians owe their name to the Pelasgians.

Can you shine your light on this, Puzzler (or anyone else)?

I remember I posted something from Iman Wilkins a while ago, and he thinks that Pelasgians means 'people living in the Low Lands'.

He thinks it meant the Netherlands and Flanders (Belgium).

.

Edited by Abramelin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Btw, I wanted to post a big post about the Prussians yesterday, but I got an error notification, and I don't know why.

According to Saru it may have been something inside that post to cause the hickup (see "Help" forum on this site).

+++

EDIT:

I will post it, step by step, adding another part with every edit. So please do not reply untill I am finished, please.

.

Edited by Abramelin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here we go:

In the natural course of competition and heredity, some chiefs must have become very powerful, acquiring various lauks and kaims as subordinate entities. The Balts entered history in the early 2nd millennium BC and were organized into these larger social entities, one of which was termed a "duchy" by non-Baltic writers.[citation needed]

Because the Baltic tribes inhabiting Prussia never formed a common political and territorial organisation, they had no reason to adopt a common ethnic or national name. Instead they used the name of the region from which they came — Galindians, Sambians, Bartians, Nadrovians, Natangians, Scalovians, Sudovians, etc. It is not known when and how the first general names came into being. This lack of unity weakened them severely, similar to the condition of Germany during the Middle Ages.

The Prussian tribal structure is most fully attested in the Chronicon terrae Prussiae of Peter of Dusburg, a priest of the Teutonic Order. The work is dated to 1326. He lists eleven lands and ten tribes, which were named based on a geographical basis

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Prussians

===

Engaged in amber trade, Sambia was the richest and most densely populated region of Prussia. It provides a wealth of artifacts from the Bronze Age, including imported goods from the Roman Empire. Sambians, unlike other Prussians, did not cremate their dead. They built earth barrows above graves and surrounded them with stone circles.[1] The name of the clan was first mentioned in 1073 by Adam of Bremen, who calls them "most humane people".[citation needed] Warfare with Danes continued from the mid-9th century to beginning of the 13th century. It is known that there was Wiskiauten, a Viking settlement in Sambia, that flourished for about 300 years. Swedes maintained more peaceful relationship and fostered trade

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sambians

A map showing the Prussian clans:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Prussian_clans_13th_century.png

The names of the Prussian tribes all reflected the theme of landscape. Most of the names were based on water, an understandable convention in a land dotted with thousands of lakes, streams, and swamps (the masurian Lake District). Indeed, that landscape caused the very partial isolation that preserved the Baltic language group as the most archaic in Europe. To the south, the terrain runs into the Pripet Marshes at the headwaters of the Dnieper River; these have been an effective barrier over the millennia.

The original pre-Baltic settlers generally named their settlements after the streams, lakes, seas, or forests by which they settled. The clan or tribal entities into which they were organized then took the name of the settlement. For example, Barta, the home of the Barti, is related to the name of the Bartis River in Lithuania, and such words as the Albanian berrak and Bulgarian and Serbian bara (????), both meaning "swamp". A *bor- root can be reconstructed, meaning "swamp", to come from the o-grade of Indo-European *bher-; Indo-European has several *bher- roots, however, so the exact meaning and line of descent is unclear.

This root is perhaps the one used in the very name of Prusa (Prussia), for which an earlier Brus- is found in the map of the Bavarian Geographer. In Tacitus' Germania, the Lugii Buri are mentioned living within the eastern range of the Germans. Lugi may descend from Pokorny's *leug- (2), "black, swamp" (Page 686), while Buri is perhaps the "Prussian" root.

The name of Pameddi (pomesania) tribe is derived from the words pa ("by" or "near") and meddin ("forest") or meddu ("honey").[3] Nadruvia and may be a compound of the words na ("by" or "on") and drawe ("wood") or na and the root *dhreu- ("flow" or "river"). The name of the Bartians, a Prussian tribe, and the name of the Barta river in Latvia are possibly cognates.

In the 2nd century AD, the geographer Claudius Ptolemy listed some Borusci living in European Sarmatia (in his Eighth Map of Europe), which was separated from Germania by the Vistula Flumen. His map is very confused in that region, but the Borusci seem further east than the Prussians, which would have been under the Gythones (Goths) at the mouth of the Vistula. The Aesti (Easterners) recorded by Tacitus were recorded later by Jordanes as part of the Gothic Empire.

The Aesti are called Brus by the Bavarian Geographer in the 9th century.

http://old-prussians.co.tv/

http://www.bookrags.com/wiki/Old_Prussians

====

This is what Tactitus had to say about the Prussians:

Pruteni-Aesti-Tacitus.jpg

http://books.google.nl/books?id=u3A3AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA77&lpg=PA77&dq=tacitus+Pruteni&source=bl&ots=pJ1xssYqAl&sig=CYPC-xifNhkrYdkmP1Dzo-YD1sE&hl=nl&ei=ziKkTaDpI8KCOuaG7fgJ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CEQQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=tacitus%20Pruteni&f=false

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=184645&st=1380&p=3627138&

===

Some links, and copying and pasting from the 'glossary' link makes things show up you won't see on that site..

http://www.glossary.com/reference.php?q=Aesti

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_mythology

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Widewuto

The flag also displayed mysterious symbols, somewhat similar to the Cyrillic alphabet. Several linguists unsuccessfully attempted to decipher the writing hoping to discover the ancient Prussian writing system.[5]

Old Prussian Language

http://books.google.com/books?id=5aoId7nA4bsC&pg=PA210#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perk%C5%ABnas

Flag_of_Widewuto.jpg

===

The Prussians are a western Baltic nation that has risen in German. They were also known under the names Old Prussia, Pruzzen or Pruteni, the spelling Pruzzen is from the Middle Ages, when the s, which, like the old German downward curving z looks up, for the voiceless ss and was later shown in roman letters as zz .

The proper name is Prusai with a long "u" said. The linguists disagree on the interpretation: "pruta / pruota" (intelligence, wisdom), "prusna" (face), "prusas" (tall), "prusiskai" (clever, intelligent), old Indian "purusah ( Humans).

http://wiki-en.genealogy.net/Prussians

====

Religion

Old Prussian gods Patolos, Perkunos and Potrimpos. Era before the arrival of the Knights

The religion of the Old Prussians, a natural religion as the Japanese Shintoism. The chronicler of the Knights Peter von Dusburg reported: "And because they knew not God, so it was that they mistakenly honored all creation as God, namely the sun, the moon and the stars, birds and beasts to the toad. They also had sacred groves, fields and waters, so that they hew wood in it to designate fields and catch fish do not dare."

In the older female religious layer especially the sun goddess Saule, her daughter, the earth goddess Semine and the goddess of fate Laima be venerated. From this period are the solstice festivities. The Earth Goddess is represented by near-Earth animals like snake and toad. At family gatherings was in honor of the Semine (affectionately called Seminele), the first drink is always on the ground. In the later Indo-European male religious layer is highest in the fact not callable Deiwus (Lith. Dievas, Latv. Deivs, Curonian Dievs, Latin Deus). The gods placed below Patolos, Perkunos, Potrimpos were therefore in the people as the highest gods. In the pagan religion there was neither devil nor hell. In the course of Christianity was the death god Patolos given the Polish name Pikollos (devil). Perkunos is represented as a goat. In his honor, were maintained in sacred groves and forests, mistletoe-covered oak trees eternal fire.

In natural religion is not believed in reincarnation. It takes two souls: The Wele (Lithuanian Vele) is an ethereal shadow creature that rises to the gods, the Dusin (Lithuanian Siela) is the part of the soul, which remains near the grave site and thus maintains contact with the bereaved. Thats why cemeteries were always created on hills so that the Wele could easily ascend to the gods. Thus the Dusin was not injured, were trees and shrubs are not pruned in cemeteries. Table and bench were used for special meals that were taken with the dead. Later, when the graveyard duty was introduced, it was not rare that bodies were dug up and secretly buried on the hill. The fencing of the souls in the cemetery was an unbearable thought. In children who cry constantly, they pushed this peculiarity to the unwanted baptism, so that it washed away in complicated rituals.

http://wiki-en.genealogy.net/Prussians

====

Scripture of the Old Prussians

900px-Pru%C3%9Fenschrift.jpg

It is generally reported that the Prussians would have had no writing. This claim was probably the assumption that they had defeated an uncivilized barbaric people. Archaeological finds show a brisk trade with Greece, Rome, Caucasian countries, England and Scandinavia. The Prussians were thus in contact with cultures in which writing was known. Simon Grunau writes of two banners, each four cubits long and three yards wide. The battle flag shows the three main gods and has an inscription in Runic characters which are difficult to translate. Similar runes are found on the rune stone Jelling/ (Denmark). It is not excluded that those from the 5./ 6. Century dating script was brought from Gotland, brought by King Waidewut and his brother, the Kriwe (priest) Bruteno. Over time, characters were added that may be the archaic Greek origin. The second flag shows the coat of arms Waidewut or another prince. The shield is held upright by two white horses in jumping position. The sign even a bear in human form with open mouth and protruding tongue is shown. After Hartknoch they should also have had an inscription. Both flags were still in the 13 Century uses. The inscription of the war flag (written by Simon Grunau 1326) means: "God Korche! Angry with the enemies, do them harm."

The Prussians sent their messages in node font. Threads and cords in different colors and sizes were hung on the "Kriwulen," the snake-Staves and expressed food, dangers, and from other materials. The amounts have been shown by the number of nodes. The cracks in the runic showed the sender and receiver. Other signs were found on wooden boards, clay objects, skins, tree bark, sticks and bones.

http://wiki-en.genealogy.net/Prussians

===

"Hi. Who were the Ancient Baltic Prussians? Many South Baltic/Polish/Lithuanian peoples alive today are descended from these great peoples. "The name Prusia is probably derived from sanscrit “pursuah” meaning people. Around the year 1075 Adam of Bremen wrote about the Prusians as “Homines Humanissimi” - the most humanitarian of people." One of the last pagan tribe in Europe, these people are known as today as Prussians, Sudovians, Yatavigian/Yatvigian/Jatavigians as well as many others names. These peaceful amber traders were neither Germanic nor Slavic. They are most closely related to Finnish/Baltic People. They lived along the Baltic for over 10,000 years, about 8,000 years prior to the arrival of the Slavic tribes!!! After the last crusade in the 13th century, German Teutonic Knights, under the guise of converting the Prussian tribes to Christianity, systematically invaded the Old Prussian lands along the Baltic. They killed, raped, burned, pillaged, confiscated land and enslaved these old Prussian tribes, then converted to then to Christianity "by the sword". Even after conversion, the Teutonic Knights continued to treat the Christian Prussians as slaves and second class citizens. They then stole and Germanized our rightful Prussian name and used it as their own until WW2!! Those Prussians with the means (money) or luck escaped south and east. Many people today along the Baltic, in Poland, Lithuania, Latvia and Kalingrad/St Petersburg areas are descended from assimilated Prussians refuges. In fact, the King of Poland granted shelter to many Prussians, who were able to retain their Prussian identity for many generations. Many of these Prussians were granted noble or knightly status. These clans, or more correctly called Herb or Herbi or Herbum in Polish and Lithuanian, are considered noblity. The 3 Prussian noble clans are herb Prus 1 (I), h. Prus 2 (II) and h. Prus 3 (III). These clans, considered aristocratic, were typically knights with land, villages and serfs. (Szlacha or Polish nobility made up 10% of the Polish population prior to the Polish partitions c.1790, the largest percentage of nobility in Europe). If you go to Wikipedia and search szlachta, Polish Nobility, or Herb/Herbi, or to the websites listed below, you will find more information about Polish Nobility, and the Teutonic annialation of the Prussian People and culture. There you will find a list of hundreds of Polish and Lithuanian names of Prussian Noble origin. If your name appears there, chances are you may be of Prussian heritage. Over the years, these Polish Lithuanian Prussians assimilated within their host communities becoming "Polish", although today their heriage "lives" in the genes of about 2 milliom Poles and other Northern Europeans. A few famous Poles of Prussian heritage are the author Boleslaw Prus, and Madame Curie. The majority of these assimilated Prussians seem to be of Haplogroup R1a1, N and subclad N1C1 (me), but other haplogroups also appear at a lower rate. Through the Prussian group called Prussian/Yatvigian on Ysearch, the Prussian Society and this forum, we are trying to piece together our lost heritage, and trace the dispora of the Prussian people. Our ultimate goal is to be recognized as a people and gain our rightful place in history, through genetics, family surnames research, and recognition by the European Parliment of our heritage. Please check it out!!! http://prusowie.pl/g...prussian-en.php (list of Prus I, Prus II and Prus III names), http://prusowie.pl/index-en.php, (Home page of Prussian website). " Run by Mr. Piliezski

http://prusowie.pl/forum/sp/1.php

====

A few links about a language related to the Old Prussian language:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithuanian_language

http://www.dicts.info/2/english-lithuanian.php?word=&begin=Zoek

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

OK, I'm done. I think I know what caused the problem when I posted this yesterday. I will try to post it in a separate post.

.

Edited by Abramelin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I thought the next was rather interesting, concerning Aldland/Atland being in the east (Asia) or in the west (like Plato's island-continent of Atlantis):

.6. Why English chronicles suggested that both Russia and

England were located on islands?

The fact that modern England is located on the island, does

not surprise us. But Russia!? There are no geographical reasons

to think that Russia is the island! But nevertheless, for example

the well-known chronicler Benoit de Sainte-Maure in his

"Chronicle of the dukes of Normandy" [22] speaks, that

There exists an ISLAND called Cansie (or Canzie), and I

think that this is Rosie (in another copy of the manuscript -

Russie - Auth.), which is surrounded by the great salty sea. And

they (the people of Russie - Auth.) fly out as great swarm of

bees, and their number is thousands; and they... can attack the

great kingdoms and take the great procurement and they can

win and conquer.

Here the original text:

"Une isle i a par non Cancie (Canzie in manuscript B - see

[10],p.240), e si crei bien que c'est Rosie (Russie in manuscript

B, see [10],p.240), qui est de la grant mer salee de totes parz

avironnee. Dunc autresi com les euetes de lor diverses

maisonnetes gitent essains granz e pleners, ou moct a nombres e

millers, ou com de ceus qui sunt irie' sunt en estor glaive

sachie', tost e isnel d'ire esbrasez, trestot eissi e plus assez

seuct icil poples fors eissir por les granz rennes envair e por

faire les granz ocises, les granz gaaiz e les conquises."

Russia is called here Rosie or Russie. If we look in the

table of medieval names, titles and their duplicates (see above),

we will see that here the chronicler really speaks about Russia.

V.I.Matuzova (who included this text in her book "English

Medieval Texts") comments this fragment as follows:

"Rosie is Russia. The report that Russia is an ISLAND is

similar to another such reports..."([10],p.244). And then

Matuzova quotes another medieval authors who were confident that

Russia is an ISLAND (in particular, some Arabian and Persian

chroniclers; but, by the way, it is not so clear - where they

lived in reality, may be in Spain?).

It is supposed sometimes today that Cancie is Scandinavia.

But Scandinavia also is not an island! By the way, the "Chronicle

of Monastery of Saint Edmund" (13th c. A.D.) is also convinced

that Russia is located on an island, because reports that Tartars

rushed on Hungary FROM ISLANDS ([30], and also [10],p.100-101).

How we can explain it? The simplest way - to accuse the

authors of 12th century that they were completely ignorant (this

is the standard explanation in modern historical textbooks and

this idea allows to the modern historians simply to "close the

problem").

But another explanation is also possible.

English word island means today the piece of land surrounded

by a sea. But may be in the medieval epoch this word had also

another meaning? Our conjecture: it was Asia-Land, i.e., the Land

located in Asia. Without vowels we have:

asialand = SLND, and island = SLND.

This is the same word!

Then all things immediately fit in their "correct places".

Russia really can be considered (from the Western point of view)

as far Asian Land = island. Large part of Russia belongs to the

Asia. Consequently, medieval chroniclers were quite right when we

talked about Island Russia. They were not so ignorant as it is

supposed today.

Let us repeat once more our conjecture: the word island had

two meanings in the past: piece of land surrounded by a sea, and

Asia-Land.

But in this case the natural question arises (as the flash).

If the ancient English authors speaking about island Russia,

assumed that they speak about Asia-Land Russia, then we do not

see any obstacles to assume that when they told bout island

Anglia, they also speak about Asia-Land Anglia. And only after

this, in a new epoch, the word island Anglia become to be

considered only as island Anglia in a modern sense (piece of land

surrounded by sea).

We saw the remarkable parallel between English history and

Byzantine history. But Byzantine Empire really was Asia-Land for

Western chroniclers. And only in the next epoch (when Byzantine

chronicles were transported in England and were inserted into

English history) the Asia-Land Anglia was transformed into Island

Anglia.

Thus, were was located the land Anglia-Britain in 10-12th

cc. A.D.? This is complicated question. To get the answer we have

unique way - to take the old English chronicles. Our answer will

be as follows:

Anglia-Britain of 10-12th cc.A.D. was Byzantine Empire.

.9. With whom Julius Caesar fights while conquering

of Britain = Albania?

Let us remind that the Brutus' epoch is simultaneously the

Julius Caesar's epoch. If so, the military operations of Brutus

should be reflected in the texts speaking about the same

operations but from the Caesar's camp.

Galfridus, when finishing the Brutus' story, and passing

several centuries along time-axis, comes finally to Caesar's

epoch. Then he started to repeat the same "Brutus' story", but,

of course, from different point of view.

Galfridus: "As it was mentioned in Roman history, Julius

Caesar (after victory in Gallia) appeared on the coast of

Rutheni. Looking from there on the island Britain, he asked his

fellows, - what about this country and which nation lives here"

([9],p.37).

It is quite clear to the trained reader that, according to

the opinion of modern historians, Galfridus again demonstrates

here his medieval ignorance. The modern commentary to this

fragment of Galfridus' text is as follows: "Rutheni are the Gall

nation lived in Aquitaine (southern-western Gallia). It is

impossible "to view" Britain from there, and consequently,

Rutheni appeared in Galfridus text erroneously" ([9],p.238).

Who are Rutheni? The reader can take again the dictionary of

medieval names and their duplicates (see Matuzova [10]) and he

will obtain the answer immediately:

Rutheni are Russians.

Really:

ANCIENT RUSSIAN STATE: RISSIANS:

Susie, Russii,

Russie, Dogi (!),

Ruissie, Rugi (!),

Rusia, RUTHENI (!),

Russia, Rusceni.

RUTHENIA,

RUTENEA,

Ruthia,

RUTHENA,

Ruscia,

Russcia,

Russya,

Rosie.

It is well-known that Russian army several times took part

in the military operations on Byzantine territory, in particular,

they attacked the Constantinople. Thus, in the Middle Ages

Russian forces really occupied some Byzantine regions. And it was

quite possible "to view" the Albania = Britain = Byzantine Empire

from there.

Thus, our conjecture is as follows.

Rutheni mentioned in old English chronicles during the

Julius Caesar's conquest of Albania = Britain - are the Russians

of 10-12th cc.A.D.

Later these Rutheni were shifted along the geographical map

in Western direction, when the old English chronicles were taken

from Byzantine Empire into modern island England. As a result of

such artificial displacement (shift) the name Rutheni appeared on

the map of Gallia (in France). Consequently, real Rutheni were

"doubled, duplicated". Then the initial, original location of

real Rutheni was forgotten among the English chroniclers.

Let us note the important idea.

When the Byzantine chronicles were transported from the East

to the West (and were inserted in the history of modern island

Britain), this shift also generated the "geographical shift" of

many names and titles which were initially located in Byzantine

Empire and around it. Rutheni (= Russians) are only one of these

examples. We will demonstrate below some another examples.

Let us return to Julius Caesar in Galfridus' description.

The fleet of Caesar invades into Albania = Britain. Here he

starts the battle with Britts ([9],p.38), then defeats them and

conquest the country. Let us stop for a moment and ask the

question: who are Britts in 10-12th cc.A.D.? Traditional

explanation is as follows: Britts are the descendants of Brutus.

This "explanation" explains nothing. Basing on our experience, we

can suspect that "Britts" of 10-12th cc.A.D. is some real nation

of Middle Ages living in some part of Byzantine Empire. We do not

need to search too long. The answer is on the surface.

An important part of Roman-Byzantine Empire is Romania =

Rumania, and also Bulgaria. Here you can see the well-known river

Danube with large afflux Prut = PRT (without vowels) or = BRT. In

the epoch of crusades the Byzantine Empire was the collection of

several feudal states. One of the important nations, which were

represented here (as crusaders), were Germans and Prussians. Let

us put the question: which name was used by medieval English

chroniclers for Prussians? The immediate answer is given by the

same dictionary by Matuzova [10]:

PRUSSIA:

Prurenia (!),

(P-Rutenia = P-Russia),

PRUSSI (Prussians):

Prateni,

Pruteni,

Pructeni,

Prusceni,

Praceni,

Pruceni.

Thus, the medieval sources call the Prussians as Pruteni =

PRTN. It is possible that here we see the medieval BRT = Britts =

Brits, described by Galfridus. Thus, it is possible that Julius

Caesar was at war with medieval Prussians = Pruteni. In

particular, Britain = BRTN (in 10-12th cc.A.D.) coincides with

RRTN = Pruneti = Prussia ! Thus, one of the large regions in

Byzantine Empire, namely, - occupied by Prussians = Pruteni, -

gave the name for Britain = Prutenia.

But another answer is also possible.

According to the Abglo-Saxon Chronicle, the British language

is the language Welsh ([2],p.3). But Welsh is evidently Vlachi =

Blachi and, according to the Matuzova's dictionary, denotes the

Thurki = Turci = Turks. If so, in some cases the Britts can be

identified with Turks (at least in some medieval chronicles). But

this identification again leads us to the Byzantine Empire as the

location of early English history.

We hope that we gave the reasonable answer of the natural

question:

With whom Julius Caesar fights while conquering

of Britain = Albania?

5.10. Where was London located in 10-11th cc. A.D.?

http://www.eunet.lv/library/win/FOMENKOAT/engltr.txt_Piece40.04

(this part is what caused the problems, but now it appears to cause no problems at all. The English isn't great, but that could not have been the cause, lol).

.

Edited by Abramelin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The thing with the Prussians is this:

-1- they had developed their own script (like the Frya people);

-2- they were known under many names (like the Frya people);

-3- they traded with Greece, Rome, Scandinavia and England (like the Frya people);

-4- they were 'most humane people' (like the Frya people);

-5- they originally had a female pantheon (3 goddesses) (close to what the Frya people believed in);

-6- they were a pre-Baltic tribe, and later one of those Baltic tribes: "The Balts entered history in the early 2nd millennium BC" (like the Frya people)

-7- before their language shifted to a Finno-Ugric language, they spoke a Pretonic (PrUtonic) language (according to Tacitus) or a language similar to what the Old Frisians, and of course, the Old English spoke.

Makes one think, eh?

.................Pharsii?? Pharismanes??

......................^

......................^

Frisians << Phruisians >> Prussians

......................V

......................V

.................Parisii

.

Edited by Abramelin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the Old Prussians are the link to understanding who wrote the OLB, and why.

I am still busy finding out what link Halbertsma had with Prussians.

Grimm is the first person I have to think of, Joost Halbertsma's buddy.

Grimm was a German, and he damn well knew of the ancient legends of the Prussians.

++++++++

EDIT:

In 1837, having been one of the seven professors who signed a protest against the King of Hanover's abrogation of the constitution established some years before, he was dismissed from his professorship and banished from the kingdom of Hanover. He returned to Kassel with his brother who had also signed the protest. They remained there until 1840 when they accepted an invitation from the King of Prussia to move to Berlin, where they both received professorships and were elected members of the Academy of Sciences.

(...)

Grimm died in Berlin at the age of 78, working even at the end.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Grimm

I case you don't understand: Grimm owed a lot to these Prussians..... Grimm, the best friend of Joost Halbertsma.

.

Edited by Abramelin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Joel Vandemaele suggested that the Belgians owe their name to the Pelasgians.

Can you shine your light on this, Puzzler (or anyone else)?

Interesting.

Bruges is the capital of Belgium and it sounds like Bryges which can be relative to Phryges to Phrygians, so it always seemed to me the Phrygian could be from Belgium originally.........?

Phrygia is in the land of Pelops. Bruges/Bryges into the Pelasgian lands...

Could be something there, I'll check it all better.

Edited by The Puzzler

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I remember I posted something from Iman Wilkins a while ago, and he thinks that Pelasgians means 'people living in the Low Lands'.

He thinks it meant the Netherlands and Flanders (Belgium).

.

Pelasgians is often interpreted to that yes, he may have used Wilkins idea, yes, probably that's it.

I don't think it does mean that though but it could have that meaning in ITALIAN but NOT GREEK.

Pelag is SEA in Italian so they get Sea-People most often from it.

The word is Pelasg though, not Pelag so that doesn't always sit well with me.

Greek Pelos is actually MUD.

Mud is more likely imo to be relative to swarthy, dirty, dark black-red

than to Sea.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Abe, the information about the Prussians and Russians is very interesting.

Concerning Halbertsma; have you thought of the question why a respectable Frisian like Halbertsma would want to elevate a Westfrisian family of common 'sinners' like the Over de Lindens? Cornelis's father "did not practice religion", Cornelis himself had highly blasphemous (in that time) ideas, his aunt had married after she had two children already etcetera. Why would he not have chosen a respected Frisian family? Was there a Halbertsma-Over de Linden connection at all?

At least in one aspect is Jensma's theory superior to Knul's: Haverschmidt was a modernist reverend in Den Helder, and Verwijs was also a modernist who would have had no problems with 'blasphemy'. IF they would have known Cornelis Over de Linden, they would have liked him and his ideas. Halbertsma, at the other hand, would not have wanted to be associated with him.

Also, Halbertsma'a style of writing is completely different from that of OLB. Very academic and utterly boring. I don't think he had any sense of humor at all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is a provisional genealogy of the Over de Linden family.

It is also published on http://fryskednis.blogspot.com/2011/04/over-de-linden-genealogy.html, where it will be updated later.

I discovered some huge errors in the information of Menno Knul, that I used as one of my sources for the Over de Linden genealogy.

So anyone who is interested in this, please don't use the info I posted about it, but the quoted link above. I have already updated many corrections, and will add more in the next few days.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Pelasgians is often interpreted to that yes, he may have used Wilkins idea, yes, probably that's it.

I don't think it does mean that though but it could have that meaning in ITALIAN but NOT GREEK.

Pelag is SEA in Italian so they get Sea-People most often from it.

The word is Pelasg though, not Pelag so that doesn't always sit well with me.

Greek Pelos is actually MUD.

Mud is more likely imo to be relative to swarthy, dirty, dark black-red

than to Sea.

Here is what I also posted, and it's still from Greek or Indo-European, not so much from Italian:

Julius Pokorny[9] derives Pelasgoi from *pelag-skoi (Flachlandbewohner, or "flatland-inhabitants"); specifically, Bewohner der thessalischen Ebene ("Inhabitants of the Thessalian plain"). The Indo-European root is *plāk-, "flat."[10] Pokorny details a previous derivation, which appears in English at least as early as William Gladstone's Studies on Homer and the Homeric Age, 1858.[11] If the Pelasgians were not Indo-Europeans, the name in this derivation must have been assigned by the Hellenes.

The ancient Greek word for sea, pelagos, comes from the same root, *plāk-, as the Doric word plagos, "side" (which is flat), appearing in *pelag-skoi. Ernest Klein therefore simply interprets the same reconstructed form as "the sea men", where the sea is the flat.[12]

Klein's interpretation does not require the Indo-Europeans to have had a word for sea, which living on the inland plains (if they did) they are likely to have lacked. On encountering the sea they simply used the word for plain, "the flat." The flatlanders also could acquire what must have been to the Hellenes a homonym, "the sea men". Best of all, if the Egyptians of the Late Bronze Age encountered maritime marauders under this name they would have translated as Sea peoples.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgians

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 12

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.