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Riaan

[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood

11,638 posts in this topic

Quite frankly I don't know where else to take this.

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I would like to start discussing this article:

The Oera Linda Boek - A literary forgery and its paper

by A. Kardinaal, E. v.d. Grijn, H. Porck

published in: IPH Congress Book 16 (2006), p. 177-185

Abe and Alewyn have the PDF, and whoever wants it, can have it.

Just PM me a mailaddress as it is too big to attach here (480 kB).

Introduction

Last year when I spent a whole day at Tresoar in Leeuwarden, the library that owns the OLB and has a collection of documentation about it. I asked for the most recent paper study report, as I had heard Jensma say in an interview that the paper was indeed found to be of the 19th century.

They said they didn't have anything, but gave me the mail-address of the head of the Tresoar collection, who gave me the address of the paper-historian of the Royal Library in Den Haag, mr. Porck, who is leading the research. I had asked both for the most recent publication, and now I got the answer that they were working on one, and that they would inform me when it would be ready. The rest you know. When after many delays it was finally published in a Dutch magazine for archivists, the result was very disappointing. I posted a translation of it on the forum on April 15.

The Oera Linda Boek, a 'cold case' and 'hot item'.

by Henk Porck, Ellen van der Grijn, Adriaan Kardinaal

But in this article, an earlier (2006) publication was mentioned, so I asked Porck for a copy of it.

When I politely started asking difficult questions, like

1) why the Dutch article does not say anything about the new estimated paper age, and how the paper was coloured, and

2) why the 2006 publication is not in the Tresoar collection, and why he had not told me about it before,

he did not answer any of them, only that they would not share any other or further information with me.

But he was kind enough to send me the 2006 article after all, which answered my questions.

The answer is: the results don't fit into their questions, because they ask the wrong questions.

The article shows that the researchers are not neutral but have a fixed idea about what the outcome should be.

Like Jensma, they very much want to believe that the OLB is a 19th century forgery, and that the Haverschmidt-Verwijs-Over de Linden conspiracy theory is right.

This time, an 'answer from silence', is a clear answer, because if the results would have confirmed their ideas, they would not have been so hesitant to share them. It rather means that the outcome is probably in conflict with their ideas, and that they have a hard time fitting them into their belief system.

Biased approach

That their approach is biased is very clear, as the title, the beginning and the end of the article stress the 'fact' (?) that OLB is a forgery, even though this conclusion is beyond the scope of their research.

In my opinion, their questions should just be:

1) when and where was the paper made?

2) is it all from the same stock?

3) was there other paper in the possession of any of the suspects that is of the same stock?

4) was the paper coloured artificially, if so: how?

5) what can be said about the conclusions of the 19th century paper examination and Ottema's reply to that?

Since they do not study the text itself, they can not say that it was a forgery, because however old the paper is, it can still be a copy of an older original.

By accepting Jensma's theory as if it were an established fact, they limit the possible outcome of their research, and there is no good reason why they should do that.

I also find it suspicious that they have completely ignored Ottema's reply to the conclusions of the 19th century paper examination (published in the introduction of his 1876 edition of the OLB). If what he said in this reply was all wrong, they should at least have said what was so wrong about it.

Interesting detail

One question I asked earlier is now answered:

The inverse fragment is quoted from "De Gemaskerde God" (2004) by Goffe Jensma, p.256:

...some sheets of empty paper that were discovered between the things Cornelis Over de Linden had left behind when he died. It was discovered in the 1920-s, that is some 50 years after COL had died in 1874 (rather late I would say!?). The paper was "for the most part cut in the same size and also had lines drawn with pencil just like the paper from the OLB. This paper was not made brown (yet). These pages had been (...) numbered with pencil in the handwriting of Cornelis Over de Linden" (my improvised translation). The handwritten page-numbers appeared to fit in the gaps from the OLB; 193-194 and 169-188.

This leaves us with some questions:

1. How certain is it that it is indeed Over de Linden's handwriting?

In the 2006 article the authors say about this:

"The blank sheets from Over de Linden's estate have been regarded as identical to the OLB paper and connected to it in several ways:

- the blank sheets are present in the estate of Cornelis Over de Linden

- some blank sheets are numbered in pencil just as those of the manuscript and possibly with the same hand

- ..."

So it is not certain at all that it was Cornelis' hand, like Jensma wanted us to believe.

In fact, if it would resemble his handwriting, the 2006 article would mention this, since they are on Jensma's side, but apparently more honest.

It is just one example of how Jensma has manipulated facts to serve his theory.

One could also simply say that he has lied.

Or do his eyes see what his mind believes?

Either way: pseudoscience.

Edited by Otharus

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D is for Del-ta

A possible clue to why 'Fryan' (the language of the OLB) is older than old-Greek.

This is what Wikipedia says about the name of the Greek letter D, Delta:

Delta (uppercase Δ, lowercase δ; δέλτα) ...

It was derived from the Phoenician letter Dalet. ...

A river delta is so named because its shape approximates the upper-case letter delta.

This makes me ask the following questions:

1. Could it be the other way around, that the Phoenician letter Dalet was derived from the Greek letter Delta, or could they both be derived from another alfabet?

2a. What does "Dalet" mean in Phoenician?

2b. Do "Dal" and "Del" mean anything in either language?

3. Could it be that the Greek letter D got its name, because the upper-case letter (triangle pointing up) looks like a river delta? In other words: Could the name "delta" for the lowest point of a river (where it floods into the sea) be older than the name of the letter?

A major clue to the main answer can be found in the OLB.

Let's have a look at the following fragments with the word "DEL", and "DELTA" which is derived from it.

Numbers between {...} refer to the fragments below.

DEL = down, downwards (Dutch: neder, neer, omlaag, naar beneden etc.) {1-22,24-25,28-29,31-32,34-35}

DEL = valley, plain (Dutch: dal, valei, vlakte) {23}

DELTA = lower part, lowness, lowlands, plains, delta (Dutch: laagte, Westfrisian: delte!) {26-28,30,33}

= = = = = = = = = = = =

{as usual: [.../..] pagenr. and line of original manuscript;

[O+S] pagenr. in 1876 translations Ottema (Dutch)and Sandbach (English)

with some suggested corrections, improvements and explanations by me}

1. [049/22]

ÔRA SVNKON IN HJRA SKÁT DEL

[O+S p.71] andere zonken in haren schoot neder

Some [others] sank [down] into [her lap] the bosom of the earth

2. [054/23]

HI WIL SIN HÁVED IN HIRA SKÁT DEL LEDSA

[O+S p.77]

Hij wil zijn hoofd in haren schoot neerleggen

He will lay down his head in her lap

3. [055/08]

VPPA SKORRA FONNA DÉNE.MARKUM DEL

[O+S p.77]

op de schorren van de Dennemarken [neer]

[down] upon the banks [shores] of Denmark

4. [065/09]

NÉIDAM NACHT MIDLERWIL DEL STRÉK

[O+S p.91]

nadien de nacht middelerwijl neder streek

as night came on [or: down]

5. [080/17]

STRÉK VPPET LAND DEL

[O+S p.11]

streek op het land neder

all over the country [or: came down on the land]

6. [080/30]

LÉI.N PLÔNK DEL VPPA SÉ

[O+S p.113]

legde een plank neder op de zee

laid a plank [down]upon the sea

7. [083/24]

THÉRNÉI IS HJU DEL GVNGON

[O+S p.115]

Daarna is zij nedergegaan

After that it went down

8. [083/26]

AS ER TWA SPÉKE JEFTHA 2000 JÉR DEL TRÚLED HET

[O+S p.115]

Als het twee spaken of twee duizend jaren nedergewenteld heeft

When two spokes, or two thousand years, shall have rolled down

9. [084/02]

GODE SÉDUM THÉR DEL LÉID WRDE IN THINRA SKÁT

[O+S p.117]

goede zaden die neergelegd worden in uwen schoot

good seed which is laid [down]in thy lap

10. [084/03]

JETA THÚSAND JÉR SKIL THJU SPÉKE THEN DEL NÍGA

[O+S p.117]

Nog duizend jaren zal de spaak naar beneden dalen

Yet a thousand years shall the spoke descend

11. [084/25]

THÁ HJU UTSPRÉKEN HÉDE SÉG HJU DEL

[O+S p.117]

Toen zij uitgesproken had, zeeg zij neder

When she had finished speaking she sank down

12. [086/31]

SKATON HJARA BARN PILLA VPPA THA FINNA DEL

[O+S p.119]

schoten hunne brandpijlen op de Finnen af

shot their burning arrows [down] at the Finns

13. [094/22]

FOL EN BLOMRÉIN DEL VPPIRA HOLE

[O+S p.131]

viel een bloemregen [neer] op haar hoofd

a shower [or: rain] of flowers fell [down] on her head

14. [095/03]

THIS SWIKT ÀND TRULDE VPPET GÀRS DEL

[O+S p.131]

deze wankelde en tuimelde op het gras neder

who staggered and fell [down] on the grass

15. [095/12]

ASER DEL KÉM WÉR EN RIDDER GÀRS.FALLICH

[O+S p.133]

toen het nederkwam beet [was] een ridder in het gras[-vallig]

and each time a knight bit the earth

[when it came down, a knight was 'grass-falling']

16. [106/25]

SIATH HWA FONÉRE TORE DEL

[O+S p.147]

Ziet iemand boven van den toren naar beneden

If one looks down from the tower

17. [115/24]

HJU SÉG DEL. ÔL LÉGOR ÀND LÉGOR

[O+S p.159]

en [zij] zeeg neder, al lager en lager

and [she] sank down lower and lower

18. [120/08]

SETTON HJARA SELVA [...] DEL

[O+S p.165]

zetten zich[-zelf] neder

set themselves down

19. [124/29]

WI SKOLDE VS DEL SETTA

[O+S p.171]

wij ons zouden nederzetten

[...] [we should settle down]

20. [129/11]

BIFÁRA THA EROSTE PIL DEL FALDE

[O+S p.177]

voor dat de eerste pijl [...] neer viel

till the first arrow fell [down]

21. [130/23]

VNDERA TIDA THÀT VS LAND DEL SÉG

[O+S p.179]

Ten tijde dat ons land neder zonk

When our land was submerged

22. [131/01]

LIN.RIUCHT SÉG.ER DEL

[O+S p.179]

Lijnrecht zeeg hij neder

and fall [it fell] straight [litt.: line-right] down

23. [136/12]

VPPET BERCHTA LÉID EN DEL

[O+S p.185]

op het gebergte ligt eene vlakte [of: dal?]

upon a mountain, lies a plain [or: valley?]

24. [146/29]

THISSA SETTON HJARA SELVA SÚD.LIKER DEL

[O+S p.199]

deze zetten zich [zelf] zuidelijker neder

they settled [down] more to the south

25. [151/30]

NÉI THÀT FLÍ.MAR DEL

[O+S p.205]

naar het Flymeer afzakken [letterlijk: neer, omlaag]

[down] to the Flymeer

26. [156/23]

GVNGON HJA WITHER NÉI THA DELTA

[O+S p.211]

gingen zij weer naar de laagte [of: delta]

they returned to the lowlands

27. [156/24]

NÉI THA DELTA OF.FÁREN

[O+S p.211]

naar de laagte afgevaren

descending [fared off?] towards the lowlands

28. [163/24]

FON THA HÁGA BERGUM NÉI THA DELTA DEL

[O+S p.221]

van de hooge bergen naar de laagte neer

from the high mountains [down] to the plains

29. [163/25]

THA BERGA HWANÁ SE DEL STRÁME

[O+S p.221]

Die bergen, waar zij van afstroomen

The mountains in which their sources lie [from where they stream down]

30. [164/04]

NÉI THA DELTA JEFTHA LÉGTE

[O+S p.221]

naar de delte of de laagte

to the [delta or] lowlands

31. [164/06]

VPPET SKUM THÉR HÉLIGE GONGG.À DEL GONGGEN IS

[O+S p.221]

op het schuim van de heilige Ganges naar beneden gegaan is

floated [had gone] down upon the foam [or: scum] of the [holy] Ganges

32. [164/26]

AN THA ÁST.LIKA OWER FON PANG.AB DEL SET

[O+S p.223]

aan den oostelijken oever van den Pangab neergezet

established themselves to the east of the Punjab

[settled down on the eastern shore of the Pangab]

33. [167/07]

THAT MITH.A STRÁMA FON BOPPE NÉI THA DELTA DRÍWETH

[O+S p.225]

dat met de stroom van boven naar de laagte drijft

that float down [with] the stream [from high to the lowlands]

34. [168/09]

THEN SKIN SE LIN.RJUCHT VPPA JOW HOLE DEL

[O+S p.227]

dan schijnt ze lijnrecht op uw hoofd neder

a man's body has no shadow

[litt.: then she shines line-right down up your head]

35. [201/14]

BY THA HELLINGA THÉRA BERGUM DEL

[O+S p.243]

bij de hellingen der bergen neder

down the slopes of the mountains

= = = = = = = = = = = =

Dutch:

dal = valley

(neer) dalen = to go down (-wards)

afdalen = to descend

Westfrisian:

delte = low part of land (see Ottema footnote, page 210)

(deel = working space in farm; related??)

= = = = = = = = = = = =

Now let's start with question 3.

Rivers flow from high- to low-lands, they flow downwards and if they reach a lake or sea, that is the lowest part. At the lowest part, they may split into several ends, as is the case at the Nile-delta, the Punjab (five rivers), and in Holland with the Rhine. Sometimes, specially with the Nile, a nice triangular shape is created.

It makes perfect sense that such lowest part of a river is named "delta", after "del", meaning down or downwards.

This construction, to turn an adjective into a noun, is still common in Dutch, and also (be it less) in English (see underlined examples):

diep (-te) = deep/ depth

droog (-te) = dry (-ness)

groen (-te) = green/ vegetable

hoog (-te, -heid) = high (-ness)

laag (-te) = low (-ness)

lang/ lengte = long/ length

leeg (-te) = empty (-ness)

lief (-de) = dear/ love

sterk (-te) = strong/ strength

stil (-te) = silent/ silence, stil (-ness)

ver (-te) = far/ distance

warm (-te) = warm (-th)

wijd (-te) = wide/ width

As far as I could find, the word "del" means nothing in Greek, and the words that mean low, down, valley etcetera down't have anything "del" in them:

Dutch to new-Greek:

laagte (lowness) = προστυχιά

dal (valley) = κοιλάδα

laag (low) = χαμηλής

neer (nether, down) = κάτω

This partly answers question 2, but since I don't have a phoenician dictionary, I'm not sure about that, but "Dalet" could very well be related to the Dutch "dal" as well, meaning low-land or valley.

Finally, the answer to question 1; both the name of the Greek letter Delta and the Phoenician letter Dalet can be explained by the Fryan language, which proves the latter (Fryan) to be the oldest.

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W is for O-mega

Wikipedia:

Omega (majuscule: Ω, minuscule: ω) is the 24th and last letter of the Greek alphabet. ...

The word literally means "great O", as opposed to Omicron, which means "little O". ...

In the New Testament book of Revelation, God is declared to be the "alpha and omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last".

The number 24 was highly symbolic for the Fryans (with their 6-spokes JOL), being 2 x 12 and 4 x 6 and 8 x 3.

The shape of the capital reminds me of the wheel-posture (chakra-asana), which is the last posture of a traditional sequence.

wheel-hatha-yoga-pose.jpg

It looks like a wheel on a flat surface.

And the 'minuscule' looks just like our w (dubble-u), the lines being curved in stead of straight.

The sound of the Fryan W or VV must have been similar to that of the Greek O-mega (long stretched O).

WR.ALDA in Greek would spell Ωρ-άλδά or ωρ-άλδά.

This makes O-mega indeed a 'sacred' letter as the 'majuscule' represents the wheel (JOL), the first symbol of Wr-Alda, while the 'minuscul', represents the first letter of Wr-Alda.

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About your Delta post:

delta

c.1200, Greek letter shaped like a triangle, equivalent to our "D," the name from Phoenician daleth "tent door." Herodotus used it of the mouth of the Nile, and it was so used in English from 1550s; applied to other river mouths from 1790.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=delta

It appears the word originated in Phoenician, but had nothing to do with a river delta, or a valley or 'downwards'.

Herodotus must have compared the shape of the Nile delta with the Phoenician tent door, and then gave it that name; daleth/delta.

+++++++++

Still thinking about that pdf, btw.

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W is for O-mega

Wikipedia:

Omega (majuscule: Ω, minuscule: ω) is the 24th and last letter of the Greek alphabet. ...

The word literally means "great O", as opposed to Omicron, which means "little O". ...

In the New Testament book of Revelation, God is declared to be the "alpha and omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last".

The number 24 was highly symbolic for the Fryans (with their 6-spokes JOL), being 2 x 12 and 4 x 6 and 8 x 3.

The shape of the capital reminds me of the wheel-posture (chakra-asana), which is the last posture of a traditional sequence.

wheel-hatha-yoga-pose.jpg

It looks like a wheel on a flat surface.

And the 'minuscule' looks just like our w (dubble-u), the lines being curved in stead of straight.

The sound of the Fryan W or VV must have been similar to that of the Greek O-mega (long stretched O).

WR.ALDA in Greek would spell Ωρ-άλδά or ωρ-άλδά.

This makes O-mega indeed a 'sacred' letter as the 'majuscule' represents the wheel (JOL), the first symbol of Wr-Alda, while the 'minuscul', represents the first letter of Wr-Alda.

You are on SOMA or what??

This is the most crap, new-age bull I have read in this thread.

You are too intelligent for this crap, Otharus.

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D is for Del-ta

A possible clue to why 'Fryan' (the language of the OLB) is older than old-Greek.

This is what Wikipedia says about the name of the Greek letter D, Delta:

Delta (uppercase Δ, lowercase δ; δέλτα) ...

It was derived from the Phoenician letter Dalet. ...

A river delta is so named because its shape approximates the upper-case letter delta.

This makes me ask the following questions:

1. Could it be the other way around, that the Phoenician letter Dalet was derived from the Greek letter Delta, or could they both be derived from another alfabet?

2a. What does "Dalet" mean in Phoenician?

2b. Do "Dal" and "Del" mean anything in either language?

3. Could it be that the Greek letter D got its name, because the upper-case letter (triangle pointing up) looks like a river delta? In other words: Could the name "delta" for the lowest point of a river (where it floods into the sea) be older than the name of the letter?[/i]

35. [201/14]

BY THA HELLINGA THÉRA BERGUM DEL

[O+S p.243]

bij de hellingen der bergen neder

down the slopes of the mountains

= = = = = = = = = = = =

Dutch:

dal = valley

(neer) dalen = to go down (-wards)

afdalen = to descend

Westfrisian:

delte = low part of land (see Ottema footnote, page 210)

(deel = working space in farm; related??)

= = = = = = = = = = = =

Now let's start with question 3.

Rivers flow from high- to low-lands, they flow downwards and if they reach a lake or sea, that is the lowest part. At the lowest part, they may split into several ends, as is the case at the Nile-delta, the Punjab (five rivers), and in Holland with the Rhine. Sometimes, specially with the Nile, a nice triangular shape is created.

It makes perfect sense that such lowest part of a river is named "delta", after "del", meaning down or downwards.

This construction, to turn an adjective into a noun, is still common in Dutch, and also (be it less) in English (see underlined examples):

diep (-te) = deep/ depth

droog (-te) = dry (-ness)

groen (-te) = green/ vegetable

hoog (-te, -heid) = high (-ness)

laag (-te) = low (-ness)

lang/ lengte = long/ length

leeg (-te) = empty (-ness)

lief (-de) = dear/ love

sterk (-te) = strong/ strength

stil (-te) = silent/ silence, stil (-ness)

ver (-te) = far/ distance

warm (-te) = warm (-th)

wijd (-te) = wide/ width

As far as I could find, the word "del" means nothing in Greek, and the words that mean low, down, valley etcetera down't have anything "del" in them:

Dutch to new-Greek:

laagte (lowness) = προστυχιά

dal (valley) = κοιλάδα

laag (low) = χαμηλής

neer (nether, down) = κάτω

This partly answers question 2, but since I don't have a phoenician dictionary, I'm not sure about that, but "Dalet" could very well be related to the Dutch "dal" as well, meaning low-land or valley.

Finally, the answer to question 1; both the name of the Greek letter Delta and the Phoenician letter Dalet can be explained by the Fryan language, which proves the latter (Fryan) to be the oldest.

That's very interesting and I do think the letter was probably named from the Delta first, since as far as I know that's how you generally got a letter.

Also, from what I've found considering the Y in FRYA - I'd never write FrIa even if I never saw the word before before FRY is fry to me even though FRIday of course is FRI too.

The OLB has Y also has a Y for Yrians - Y is used in this instance.

Iranians - the I came from a branch off - the Alans used to call themselves IRONS - so the I is a late change for a letter that had Y.

The Alans imo may be responsible for the Dutch language and words such as Iran and FrIa - it may be a branch off in language - where Fryan and English retain a Y but the Alan IE intrusion spread to Dutch....??

A nursery rhyme I know - the Farmer In The Dell.

In the United Kingdom it is known as "The Farmer's In His Den'", and progresses through the farmer, wife, child, nurse, dog, ending with a bone, which is then vigorously patted.[1] The 'Hi-Ho, the derry-o' is variously replaced with "Ee-i, tiddly-i" in London, 'Ee-i, andio' (for instance in Northern England), and 'Ee-i, ee-i' (for instance in the West Country).[1]

The Romanian version is "Țăranul e pe câmp" (The farmer is on the field)

Quite frankly, I think DEEL, working space on a farm suits this verse best. Otharus said this: Westfrisian:

delte = low part of land (see Ottema footnote, page 210)

(deel = working space in farm; related??)

West Frisian[edit] PronunciationIPA: /dɛl/

[edit] Adverb del

1.down

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/del

The Downs as in name of a place - we have places like the Darling Downs - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darling_Downs

----

delta

c.1200, Greek letter shaped like a triangle, equivalent to our "D," the name from Phoenician daleth "tent door." Herodotus used it of the mouth of the Nile, and it was so used in English from 1550s; applied to other river mouths from 1790.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php

--------

The letter is based on a glyph of the Middle Bronze Age alphabets, probably called dalt "door" (door in Modern Hebrew is delet), ultimately based on a hieroglyph depicting a door

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalet

---------

I wonder if in fact door in Hebrew and Phoenician came from the real name for DEL - which was DOWN.

Ah ha...

Something hanging

Online classes

The word deleth (Strong's 1817) means 'the leaf' of a door, i.e., that which hangs or swings (on hinges or a post) and can be opened or shut. It derives from the root verb, dâlâh (Strong's #1802) which means 'to hang down' and includes the idea of letting down to draw out, as with water from a well.

http://www.biblicalhebrew.com/wordstudies/deleth.htm

It hangs DOWN.

Edited by The Puzzler

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About your Delta post:

delta

c.1200, Greek letter shaped like a triangle, equivalent to our "D," the name from Phoenician daleth "tent door." Herodotus used it of the mouth of the Nile, and it was so used in English from 1550s; applied to other river mouths from 1790.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=delta

It appears the word originated in Phoenician, but had nothing to do with a river delta, or a valley or 'downwards'.

Herodotus must have compared the shape of the Nile delta with the Phoenician tent door, and then gave it that name; daleth/delta.

+++++++++

Still thinking about that pdf, btw.

While you are thinking there, note that Daleth - tent door actually comes from the meaning to hang DOWN.

It's not improbable that Herodotus named the delta but the base word dal/del - down was there - so the Phoenician could still connect to the DEL meaning of DOWN. Herodotus may have used a word that already meant it - not created it, as such. It's not the Triangle shape - it's the meaning of flap, hanging down, which does then look like a triangle - but in all likliness Herodotus termed it delta because it - was the down part of the Nile, the Lower Nile - Lower - it drew down - Downs that looked like a triangle flap. (Which also were the fields) - The farmer's in the fields - the farmer's in the del (ta) - the farmer's in the downs - the farmers in the del.

I also think Otharus has a real point with the O thing.

Edited by The Puzzler

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I should have added this part as well:

It 'let out'.

Also:

A bucket, delîy (Strong's #1805), also comes from this root, as it hangs on a rope to draw water from the well. With the idea of drawing out comes the idea of freedom as in Psalm 30:2: "I will extol you for you set me free [drew me out/lifted me up] ( dillîythânîy)". In Proverbs 20:5 the verb is used of a man of understanding 'drawing out' counsel from the heart.

http://www.biblicalhebrew.com/wordstudies/deleth.htm

Freedom, drawing out (bought me out), Delta

Maybe DELIVER, as in deliver me - draw me out from 'evil'.

It's an interesting word really.

I won't even go there but Aboriginals have a bag they call it a dili bag or as we say a Dilly-Bag - it's for carrying things in, a drawstring type pouch bag they carry things in - almost like a bucket with a drawstring...weird. Anyways...

Edited by The Puzzler

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Adela, the name itself could mean something like - the Deliverer (of the message/book) A dela - a drawing out of, a deliverance, a freedom. A deliverer of the (message) of freedom.

Spell edit.

Edited by The Puzzler

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Thank you for helping me with this, Puzzler.

And yes, I'm also serious about the O-mega/ 'double-u' connection.

BTW, although I didn't have anything to add to them, I totally :wub: your posts of last week. Very poetic!

~ ~ ~

Abe, I see it as a sign of weakness to call something crap, when you don't understand it.

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Adela, the name itself could mean something like - the Deliverer (of the message/book) A dela - a drawing out of, a deliverance, a freedom. A deliverer of the (message) of freedom.

Yes, I've been thinking about her name too, specially since it's spelled "A.DEL.A" in OLB.

(And Adel is spelled "A.DEL".)

~ ~ ~

Welcome on page 300!!!

Edited by Otharus

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I won't even go there but Aboriginals have a bag they call it a dili bag or as we say a Dilly-Bag - it's for carrying things in, a drawstring type pouch bag they carry things in - almost like a bucket with a drawstring...weird. Anyways...

Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if there are language connections.

When I was in Ozzy I noticed more of them (was in Cairns too last year).

Most striking is BOOMERANG <= BOOM-RANK (tree-branch).

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Welcome on page 300!!!

:clap::clap:

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Thank you for helping me with this, Puzzler.

And yes, I'm also serious about the O-mega/ 'double-u' connection.

BTW, although I didn't have anything to add to them, I totally :wub: your posts of last week. Very poetic!

~ ~ ~

Thank you.

To me, it's like I found a light that keeps me 'delving' further into the well.

I can feel it inside of me this story is true. The manuscript may be recently written or whatever, it doesn't faze me, the contents are true I reckon. If the timeframe is wrong it's because of something else, like Christian Reckoning or confusion.

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Dilly-dally.

It's a phrase that means to hang back, lag behind, linger longer.

general etymology gives us this:

dal·ly   /ˈdæli/ Show Spelled

[dal-ee] Show IPA

verb, -lied, -ly·ing.

–verb (used without object)

1. to waste time; loiter; delay.

2. to act playfully, especially in an amorous or flirtatious way.

3. to play mockingly; trifle: to dally with danger.

–verb (used with object)

4. to waste (time) (usually followed by away ).

Use dally in a Sentence

See images of dally

Search dally on the Web

Origin:

1250–1300; Middle English dalien < Anglo-French dalier to chat, of uncertain origin

—Related forms

dal·li·er, noun

dal·ly·ing·ly, adverb

un·dal·ly·ing, adjective

—Synonyms

1. See loiter. 2. flirt, tease, trifle. 3. toy.

----------

OK, all about loitering, hanging around - then it became advanced into a dalliance etc..

To dilly-dally in my opinion could come from the Hebrew root of HANG: (which also comes from DEL/DAL) - dilly-dally - hanging (back - around - down)

dal (Strong's #1800) is the less common masculine word, equivalent of deleth and also from the same root. It is used in the phrase, 'the door of the lips' in Psalm 141:3 in parallel to and meaning the 'mouth'. Other derived or associated words include: dâlal (Strong's #1809) 'to hang down, swing/wave; be weak, feeble, delicate'; dâlîyth (Strong's #1808) [plural: dâlîyyôwth] 'branches, boughs', as hanging from a tree; dâllâh 'thread, hair, poor - life as hanging by a slender thread', (Strong's #1803, Isaiah 38:12, a thread hanging down from a loom).

http://www.biblicalhebrew.com/wordstudies/deleth.htm

Imo again, words like DELay come from this same root - hanging - waiting ---> delay delayed

In a phrase I could say: C'mon kids, don't dilly-dally! or C'mon kids, don't delay! Same thing - all means keeps one hanging.

---------------

STOP PRESS Edit:

Maybe an explanation:

The word dal in Hebrew, can also mean the lowest poorest tribe or individual. In fact, modern India describes the lower castes, the 'untouchables', as dalits.

"According to James Massey, the term "Dalit" is perhaps, one of the most ancient terms which has not only survived till date, but is also shared by a few of world's oldest languages, namely, Hebrew and Sanskrit. Though they differ in their grammatical and lexicographical connotations, both these languages share the term "Dalit" with the same root and sense. It has been said that the root word 'dal' in dalit has been borrowed into Sanskrit from Hebrew." (www.csichurch.com/article/dalit.htm and see www.dalitsolidarity.org/meaning.htm)

Then this:

One interesting use of deleth is for the 'leaf' or 'page' of a book, as it hangs from the spine and resembles a double-door. This occurs in Jeremiah 36:23 when the king hears 3 or 4 'columns' [literally: 'doors'] of Jeremiah's words of prophecy read from the scroll and then cuts the 'leaves' off with a scribe's knife and burns them in the fire. In the ancient Lachish letters (no.4, dated 586 B.C.) on the obverse side there is the phrase "I have written on the door () according to all my Lord has written to me . . .". Here we are not to imagine doors being written upon but the leaves of a scroll again.

Maybe the writings of the OLB were not on the walls (or doors?) of the citadels at all but on PAPER. It always seemed a bit odd to me they would write this stuff on the WALLS of their citadels.

Edited by The Puzzler

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I hesitated posting this, but after having thought about it for a few days, I think the family won't mind, as it is for the good of the research and with the most respect. This is also to support the Reuvers-Kofman theory that I posted about recently.

Some additional notes on the Over de Linden family

For details see http://fryskednis.blogspot.com/2011/04/over-de-linden-genealogy.html

Generation I ~ Jan Andries-son Over de Linden (ca.1718-1794)

He had been a 'klerk' (administrator) in Leeuwarden in the early 1740-s, but moved to Enkhuizen after his marriage in 1745 with Jantje vd Woud from Harlingen. That he was a klerk means that he came from a relatively well-to-do family, or else he would not have learnt to read and write.

Enkhuizen in the 18th and 19th century was like a ghost town. In the 17th century, being one of the East-India-Comany cities, it had florished, but from 1650 it went downhill and fell in decline. When Jan O.L. arrived, there was only some trading of agricultural products and material from broken-down houses. Why would someone with a good education move from Friesland to a Westfrisian ghost-town like Enkhuizen was, and settle as a book-publisher?

It is tempting to think that there were political motives. If he was indeed the owner of the OLB, he might have had ideas and ideals that were not in harmony with the Frisian 18th century establishment. In Enkhuizen in the more liberal Westfriesland he would have much more freedom to print and sell his books.

Further research is needed to know who was his employer in Leeuwarden, if he is mentioned in any legal- or church documents from either Friesland or Enkhuizen, what were the names of their other children (Johannes and Andries were named after the two grandfathers), and if any publications from his press have survived.

If indeed he passed on the OLB (or its original) to his son Andries (1759-1820) the carpenter, then why would he not ALSO have passed on a copy to his other son Johannes (1752-?) who followed his example to become a book-publisher as well. Jan Andriesz lived long enough to make one or more copies and pass on the tradition to both sons (and to other children if he had them).

Generation II ~ Johannes and Andries

It is noteworthy that Johannes married a woman from a "family of medical doctors and theologians" in 1776 and that they had their first child baptised only six weeks after the marriage. They must have died before 1810, as their youngest daughter stayed in an orphan-house from 1810 till 1814. It is remarkable that she was not adopted by her uncle and aunt or by her older brother Jan. Research is needed to the dates of death and a possible testament.

Andries did the "poorterseed" (oath of citizens?) in 1811 which means he was considered to be of good standing.

Further research is needed to establish if they had other children than the ones listed in the genealogy and if they appear in legal- or church documents.

Note that both Johannes and Andries named one son after their father, Jan.

Generation III

Jan Johannes-son Over de Linden (1776-1858) was the 3rd generation book publisher. He and his wife named their children according to the tradition:

1st son: father of the father

2nd son: father of the mother

1st daughter: mother of the mother

2nd daugtter: mother of the father

other children to uncles and aunts of choice

The only known son of Pieter Andries-son Over de Linden (1782-?), named Andries (born 1810), probably died at young age. He would have been another possible heir of the OLB.

From the marriage Jan Andries-son Over de Linden (1785-ca.1835) and Antje Goedmaat, not much was found on the web. I must have some notes at home though. If Cornelis was their only son, it's remarkable that he was not named Andries, after his father's father. This would suggest a conflict between Jan Over de Linden and his father Andries (who also was said to have passed on the OLB to his youngest daughter Aafje, because his son Jan would not have been interested). Cornelis was probably the name of his other grandfather.

It is significant that Jan O.L. was known to "not practice religion" (did he have a documented conflict with the church?), while his wife Antje Goedmaat was "orthodox Calvinist", changing her religion at old age (into what?). Further reasearch in the church archives may provide answers.

Aafje Andries-daughter had two children already (Cornelia and Andries) when she married their probable father Hendrik Reuvers (his mother's name was Cornelia) in 1821. This does not need to mean that they did not love each other enough, as it is possible that they just initially did not care about involving church and civil authorities into private matters. It is remarkable that one of their grandsons, Jacob Kofman (1843-1911) would become a driven 'apostle', who believed that the second coming of Chist was near (see earlier post), while his brother Hendrik (1853-1933) became a frontrunner of the socialist movement. According to the statements by Cornelis O.L. the OLB was passed on to Hendrik and Aafje Reuvers-Over de Linden, and it was because of his uncle Hendrik that he had not received the manuscript earlier.

Generation IV

Two sons (at least) of Jan Johannes-son followed the tradition of book-publishing, Johannes (1803-?) and Willem (ca.1813-?).

Cornelis Over de Linden (1811-1874) from the OLB must have had some problem with his father Jan, as he only named his 4th son after him, not just naming him Jan, but Anton-Jan (1843-?). I don't know the name of his wife's father yet, but if it wasn't also Cornelis, he really must have liked his own name, as he named his first son Cornelis and his second Antoon-Cornelis.

That there was something 'different' about the family ethics is once more demonstrated by a detail in Cornelis' auto-biography. He would have written that before he was married, when he was already working at the shipyard in Den Helder, he was living with a family and that he had had a love affair with the (married) woman of the house (DGG, p.238). Not only that this had happened, but mostly that he does not hide this (for most people embarrasing) fact, is remarkable. His full cousin Wijntje van Doornik (1829-1891) would have had five children from three different fathers (being married to one of them).

According to one version of the story of how Cornelis had received the OLB, he got it from his full cousin Cornelia Kofman-Reuvers (1818-1878). One of her sons, Hein (Hendrik) Kofman (1853-1933) would later have accused Cornelis O.L. of having stolen the OLB (from his mother or from his grandmother?). If this is true it would be a strong clue that Rijkent Kofman (Cornelia's husband) must have known more about the OLB (see my earlier post about this).

Generation VI (skipping V)

Last but not least, in the sixth generation the two branches of the Over de Linden family tree are reunited, in the marriage of Keetje, the daughter of Jacob (Rijkent's son) Kofman, the 'apostle', and her cousin to the fouth degree Gerard Over de Linden (from the book publishers branch). See below.

(I)

Jan Andriesz OVER DE LINDEN

(1718-1794)

Jantje Johannis VAN DER WOUD

|

|

------------------------

|. . . . . . . . . . . |

|(II-1). . . . . . . . |(II-2)

Johannes . . . . . . . Andries

OVER DE LINDEN . . . . OVER DE LINDEN

(1752-?) . . . . . . . (1759-1820)

Wilh.TEN BEEST . . . . IJfje SCHOLS

|. . . . . . . . . . . |

|. . . . . . . . . . . |

|(III-1) . . . . . . . |(III-5)

Jan. . . . . . . . . . Aafje

OVER DE LINDEN . . . . OVER DE LINDEN

(1776-1858). . . . . . ((1798-1849)

Joh.BLIKKENHORST . . . Hendrik REUVERS

|. . . . . . . . . . . |

|. . . . . . . . . . . |

|(IV-2). . . . . . . . |(IV-12)

Adrianus . . . . . . . Cornelia

OVER DE LINDEN . . . . REUVERS

(1807-1870). . . . . . (1818-1878)

Petronella HEIMAN. . . Rijkent KOFMAN

|. . . . . . . . . . . |

|. . . . . . . . . . . |

|(V-3) . . . . . . . . |(V-18)

Bartholdus . . . . . . Jacob

OVER DE LINDEN . . . . KOFMAN (the 'apostle')

(1842-?) . . . . . . . (1843-1911)

Trijntje MES . . . . . Hendrika GREINER

|. . . . . . . . . . . |

|. . . . . . . . . . . |

|(VI-10) . . . . . . . |

Gerard - -married to - Catharina J.H. ("Keetje")

OVER DE LINDEN . . . . KOFMAN

(1873-?) . . . . . . . (1873-?)

died after 1923. . . . died before 1915

They had three children:

1) Bartholdus Gerardus OVER DE LINDEN,

born ca.1898, married to

Maria Petronella Elisabeth Kropff, born ca.1898

2) Hendrika Jacoba OVER DE LINDEN,

born ca.1901, married to

Hermanus Johannes Stokvis, born ca.1900

3) Catharina Cornelia OVER DE LINDEN,

born ca.1906, married to

Lukas Jakobus Niederländer, born ca.1905

Edited by Otharus

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Two contradicting views on the meaning of "daleth":

The chart below shows the etymology of the letter/symbol, “daleth”, from its earliest usage.

Daleth%20Chart.jpg

The Semitic alphabet used pictures to convey ideas. For example, the earliest known Semitic symbol of a fish literally meant “door” or more specifically a “tent door”. Interestingly, the Semitic people of Phoenicia incorporated a triangle into their symbol of a fish; it was the tent shape of the triangle that was meant to be symbolic of a door or gateway. This particular shape became known as daleth.

Over time, the diamond shape of the fish was eliminated and only the triangular shaped tail remained – pointing in the opposite direction. This particular shape was the fourth letter of the Phoenician alphabet and was also known as daleth. Even though the shape evolved, the idea behind the letter daleth remained and daleth continued to be equivalent to a door.

Interestingly, daleth was adopted by the Hebrews for the fourth letter of their alphabet and like the Phoenician daleth, the Hebrew daleth also meant door. To the Greeks, who adopted daleth as the fourth letter of their alphabet, daleth was written in the form of a triangle and was renamed “delta”. Like the Phoenician and Hebrew daleth, the Greek delta means door.

According to The Interpreter’s Dictionary of the Bible, as well as other sources, the original meaning of daleth was probably dag – the Hebrew word for fish.[3] In other words, because daleth was originally based on the pictogram of a fish, the representation of both the triangle and a fish can be used interchangeably to convey the idea of a door. This same concept was embraced by America’s Founding Fathers when laying the foundations of our Nation’s Capitol.

http://newhousefoundation.org/subpage4.html

+++++

There are two possibilities for the original Early Semitic pictograph for this letter - , a picture of a fish and , a picture of a door. The modern Hebrew name for this letter is “dalet” and means “door”. The word “dalet” is a derivative of the parent root “dal” also meaning “door”. The Arabic name for this letter is “dal” giving support to the parent root as the original name. As the Hebrew word for a “fish” is dag, it is unlikely that the pictograph is the pictograph for this letter but, rather the pictograph .

The basic meaning of the letter is “door” but has several other meanings associated with it. It can mean “a back and forth movement” as one goes back and forth through the tent through the door. It can mean “dangle” as the tent door dangled down from a roof pole of the tent. It can also mean weak or poor as one who dangles the head down.

http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/3_dal.html

3_scripts_04a.jpg

3_scripts_04b.jpg

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Thank you for helping me with this, Puzzler.

And yes, I'm also serious about the O-mega/ 'double-u' connection.

BTW, although I didn't have anything to add to them, I totally :wub: your posts of last week. Very poetic!

~ ~ ~

Abe, I see it as a sign of weakness to call something crap, when you don't understand it.

I see it as a sign of weakness that you allow yourself to post what you did, concerning Omega.

Maybe not weakness, but desparation.

OK, maybe it's just me, but I start hating this "lego etymology".

With that kind of wordplay you can prove 1+1=3.

Btw, I have posted a question to Olivier van Renswoude on his "Taaldacht" site, about the Rüstringer dialect in comparison with the language used in the OLB.

He appears to be a linguist, and he is a, or speaks, Frisian.

+++++

EDIT:

http://taaldacht.nl/opmerkingen-en-vragen/ , and scroll down (to: 27 april 2011 ).

.

Edited by Abramelin

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I see it as a sign of weakness that you allow yourself to post what you did, concerning Omega.

Maybe not weakness, but desparation.

OK, maybe it's just me, but I start hating this "lego etymology".

With that kind of wordplay you can prove 1+1=3.

bull Abe.

It's just beyond the capacities of your mind and that makes you feel uncomfortable.

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Abe, I don't really see a problem with daleth.

What I see though, is why the Christians probably have a fish symbol for Jesus.

He was the deliverer of the message of freedom.

Whatever fish means in Egypt to do with Daleth it would certainly (imo) still be attached to del/dal meanings of some kind. He delivered us - from our sins (selves).

It also might have something to do with why many people just ate fish last Friday.

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A door or gateway to a river is probably the fish connection in Egypt. A triangle shape in Greek.

The Lions Gate has a distinctive triangular Lion's Gate pattern in the doorway into Mycenae.

This is a DELta probably, a door or gateway to (the later connected) deliverance, freedom.

Mycenae was probably a free city.

Here's a better example of it's usage in Mycenae (Atreus Tomb/Treasury)

Mycenae27_tn.JPG

http://www.grisel.net/mycenae.htm

While I was on that site I thought this was really amazing, not for any reason to do with the topic, look at this, it's 33 successive cut rock circles - all nudged into each other to form the Tholos Tomb - not rocks, circles of cut rock, each one slightly bigger than the next.

Mycenae29_tn.JPG

The Mycenae Lion's Gate was built c. 1250BC while the larger sized bodies in some of the grave shafts with the gold 'mask of Agamemnon' is dated c. 1600BC, imo, there was 2 distinct Mycenaean era people in Greece.

Anyway, I'd be pretty sure that the triangles in the DOORWAYS at Mycenae have some relation to the idea of this shape meaning DOOR. (To interpretation of deliverance, freedom, released)

Edit - add link http://www.grisel.net/mycenae.htm

Edited by The Puzzler

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What I see though, is why the Christians probably have a fish symbol for Jesus.

Wikipedia:

Ichthys (more commonly spelled Ichthus, or sometimes Ikhthus, from Koine Greek: ἰχθύς, capitalized ΙΧΘΥΣ or ΙΧΘΥC) is the ancient and classical Greek word for "fish." In English it refers to a symbol consisting of two intersecting arcs, the ends of the right side extending beyond the meeting point so as to resemble the profile of a fish, used by Early Christians as a secret symbol[1] and now known colloquially as the "sign of the fish" or the "Jesus fish."

Edit: (I forgot to include the most important part)

Iota (i) is the first letter of Iēsous (Ἰησοῦς), Greek for "Jesus".

Chi (ch) is the first letter of Christos (Χριστός), Greek for "anointed".

Theta (th) is the first letter of Theou (Θεοῦ), Greek for "God's", the genitive case of Θεóς, Theos, Greek for "God".

Upsilon (u) is the first letter of huios (Υἱός), Greek for "Son".

Sigma (s) is the first letter of sōtēr (Σωτήρ), Greek for "Savior".

But what you say may be yet another (extra or main?) reason to use the fish as a symbol.

(The more ambiguous meanings the better in symbology.)

otter-eating-a-fish-thumb1799573.jpg

Edited by Otharus

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Here's a better example of it's usage in Mycenae (Atreus Tomb/Treasury)

Mycenae27_tn.JPG

http://www.grisel.net/mycenae.htm

That's also a door to go DOWN UNDER-ground.

Again; in Fryan DEL means down-wards.

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A preposterous translation by Jensma

Original text in OLB

[012/27] Tex Frya's #7

ALLERA MÀNNALIK THÉR EN OTHER FON SINE FRYDOM BIRÁW

AL WÉRE THENE ÔRE HIM SKELDECH

MOT IK ANDA BÀRN.TAM ÉNER SLÁFINE FÁRA LÉTA

The translations by Ottema, Overwijn and De Heer are all similar and acceptable, general meaning:

Anyone who robs another's freedom,

even if the other owes him,

'deserves to be severely humiliated'

(litterally: "must I let fare on the child-leash of a slave-girl")

[Ottema (1876) p.21]

Een iegelijk die een ander van zijne vrijheid berooft,

al ware de ander hem schuldig,

dien moet ik aan den leiband eener slavin laten voeren

[Overwijn (1951)]

Een ieder, die een ander van zijn vrijheid berooft,

al heeft de ander aan hem een verplichting,

die moet ik aan de leiband van een slavin laten rondlopen.

[De Heer (2008) p.21]

Iedereen die een ander van zijn vrijheid berooft,

al is die ander hem schuldig,

moet ik aan de kinderband van een slavin voeren laten.

Sandbach has totally missed the point as Fryans didn't have slaves, not even people who deserve punishment.

[p.21]

If any man shall deprive another,

even his debtor, of his liberty,

let him be to you as a vile slave

But Friesland's official OLB-authority prof.dr. Jensma came up with a most preposterous translation:

[Jensma (2006) p.95]

Alleman die een ander van zijn vrijheid berooft,

al ware de ander hem schuldig,

moet ik in de baarmoeder van een slavin laten voeren.

The third line translated:

I must have him be lead into the womb of a slave-girl

His reasoning is this:

The 19th century creators of the OLB must have used dictionaries of their time.

He found the word "berntam" in two sources:

- Proeve van een Friesch en Nederlandsch woordenboek, by M. Hettema (1832) => "baarmoeder" (womb)

- Altfriesisches Wörterbuch, (Frisian-German) by Karl von Richthofen (1840) = > "Kinderzeugung" (child-making!)

In his footnote Jensma clarifies: "Ottema translates "leiband" (leash), appearantly based on the Newfrisian non-existing combination 'berne-team' (child-leash)."

Dutch also knows the oldfashioned word "toom", meaning "leash", mostly used in "tomeloos" (= bandeloos); reckless, wild, without constraints. The word also lives forth in "tam" (tame) and "temmen" (to tame).

Using logic and common reasoning, I think that both Hettema and von Richthofen were wrong, but I would like to know their sources.

Bern-tam or BÀRN.TAM = child-leash makes much more sense, but I have also considered "navel-string" (umbilical), in the context of womb.

It also shows that the supposed hoaxers did not use any of the existing dictionaries (for this), as Jensma's translation is complete and utter nonsense (or can anyone explain the logic to me?).

~ ~ ~

If a student with a bizarre sense of humor would have suggested this, I might have smiled about it, but Jensma's book was partly financed by Maatschappij der Nederlandse Letterkunde (union for Dutch literature) te Leiden and Het Nederlands Literair Productie- en Vertalingsfonds (the Dutch fund for production and translation of literature) in Amsterdam.

May it be clear that the Netherlands suffer from an inflation of academic titles.

Edited by Otharus

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