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Riaan

[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood

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That could prove a flood, true.

But I also mentioned (or better, the OLB does) erupting volcanoes, fires, and all that (see my former post happening at the same time, around 2200 BC, and in Europe.

Btw, Alewyn, do you still have that pdf that you quoted from (the megalithic chambers in the Netherlands). I appear to have lost it..

.

http://www.waddensea-secretariat.org/news/publications/Wsnl/Wsnl00-2/articles/07knottnerus.pdf

Sea Level Rise as a Threat to Cultural Heritage, Otto S. Knottnerus, Zuidbroek, NL

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Posted (edited)

I had pondered this before when Slim bought up a theory. I don't generally agree with it I guess, because I don't know all that much, but I do think Atlantis in Italy is very logical, this was my response to Slim..

don't even know what to say.

First I though, what the??? But I am half way through reading the article and it actually seems to make quite some sense. The shape and size are pretty correct, the sinking would have created enough flooding and catastrophe to have affected and flooded Greece and Italy, which has the old myths of severe flooding etc. Italy was called Hesperia so could be construed as the Island of the Hesperides...it is west of Greece in an ocean.

The sinking of Atland as mentioned in the OLB book does affect the people of the Mediterranean. Maybe it was when Malta and Sicily became seperated from Africa.

Gosh, it's almost too obvious. I will have to spend some serious time on this one.

I dunno Slim, but a great rabbit out the hat that article is.

I thought it may have come from Malta and Sicily seperating but Swede set me straight so now I have found this eruption, this would be what it is.

I can see the word Phlegraean is really (con)flagration. imo of course.

Edited by The Puzzler

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You yourself already gave some evidence. See my post:

"Archaeologists found megalithic chambered tombs near Defile in the Netherlands which disappeared after 2200 BC under several feet of clay and peat (with acknowledgement to Abramelin)."

Apologies. That should read "Delfzijl in the Netherlands".

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Apologies. That should read "Delfzijl in the Netherlands".

LOL, that is why I couldn't find it !!

"Defilé" is a Dutch word meaning something like 'royal procession'.

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http://www.waddensea-secretariat.org/news/publications/Wsnl/Wsnl00-2/articles/07knottnerus.pdf

Sea Level Rise as a Threat to Cultural Heritage, Otto S. Knottnerus, Zuidbroek, NL

But nothing points to a catastrophic flood, tsunami style:

For long, permanent settlement was largely restricted

to the edges of the coastal area. Dozens of

sites were located on moraine hillocks and river

dunes, where they were subsequently buried under

marine or riverain sediments or became overgrown

by the mires. Near Delfzijl (Netherlands)

Neolithic settlers built a megalithic chambered tomb

about 3350 BC. After 2200 BC, the site disappeared

under several feet of clay and peat. As many as 77

megalithic graves are located on the North Frisian

Islands alone, whereas the adjoining mudflats and

sandbanks provided dozens of flint daggers and

sickles.

As sea level rise slowed down, the local tribesmen

began to reclaim the coastal plains. About

1200 BC, Bronze Age farmers settled down at a

former river-estuary North of Amsterdam.

http://www.waddensea-secretariat.org/news/publications/Wsnl/Wsnl00-2/articles/07knottnerus.pdf

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Talking of the Middle Sea - now this seems to make more sense as I've gone along...

In Modern Hebrew, it has been called HaYyam HaTtikhon (הַיָּם הַתִּיכוֹן), "the middle sea", a literal adaptation of the German equivalent Mittelmeer

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediterranean_Sea

The modern Hebrew language has the Mediterranean Sea as the Middle Sea, this to me is relevant that their language taken taken from a possible older one that also called the Mediterranean Sea the Middle Sea. Just like daleth is found in Phoeniciana and Canaanite, which I certainly think is what A.DEL.A's name is referring to, as I mentioned, the deliverer of the freedom message.

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The megaliths, even though not directly mentioned in the OLB -

By the gravestone of which mention has already been made her body is buried. Upon the stone the following words are inscribed:—

TREAD SOFTLY, FOR HERE LIES ADELA.

Could the adaptation of a stone grave STONE as a marker for a grave be what the megalithic graves were originally - gravestones, we now just have smaller versions of them, possibly because men became less strong or they just downgraded to smaller stones for ease.

The mention of Adela having a gravestone imo could validate that they were the megalithic grave creators, especially since over 77 are on those Frisians Islands. I actually found that part you asked Alewyn to link to in the Wadden Sea pdf, remember the clay and peat could be organic matter and logs etc mentioned in the OLB.

What it shows regardless, is that at 2200BC water did inundate the Frisian Islands to the land and people had been there successfully living a megalithic culture in the past. We do not know how it affected the land exactly but it obviously made an impact to cover previously inhabited areas. What you need to see is a huge calamity but to people in the centre of a small one, it can appear to be monumental.

If the Phlegraean Plains was in turmoil, this to me would spread the tectonic activity to other parts of the European plate since it was a time of activity, so a whole range of areas would feel effects at the same time. Tsunamis most likely did happen from it and may have even hit Western Greece.

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Talking of the Middle Sea - now this seems to make more sense as I've gone along...

In Modern Hebrew, it has been called HaYyam HaTtikhon (הַיָּם הַתִּיכוֹן), "the middle sea", a literal adaptation of the German equivalent Mittelmeer

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediterranean_Sea

The modern Hebrew language has the Mediterranean Sea as the Middle Sea, this to me is relevant that their language taken taken from a possible older one that also called the Mediterranean Sea the Middle Sea. Just like daleth is found in Phoeniciana and Canaanite, which I certainly think is what A.DEL.A's name is referring to, as I mentioned, the deliverer of the freedom message.

They adopted that name from German medieval sources (in Latin).

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If the Phlegraean Plains was in turmoil, this to me would spread the tectonic activity to other parts of the European plate since it was a time of activity, so a whole range of areas would feel effects at the same time. Tsunamis most likely did happen from it and may have even hit Western Greece.

But did it cause turmoil in the North Sea area? In the form of floods and tsunamis? I don't think so.

Like I said - maybe Cormac wants to drop in an have his say about it - the 2200 BC eruption wasn't any way near as catastrophic as the later Mt. Thera eruption.

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But did it cause turmoil in the North Sea area? In the form of floods and tsunamis? I don't think so.

Like I said - maybe Cormac wants to drop in an have his say about it - the 2200 BC eruption wasn't any way near as catastrophic as the later Mt. Thera eruption.

No, I don't believe the effects probably did directly affect the North Sea but instead at the same time it had it's own effects, froma variety of things, yes, some tectonic movement that was throught the whole plate since it was active in one area, so it may have been a whole connection but I don't say the eruptions would have been directly responsible.

The 4.2 ky event and changes in sea level, weather changes etc, with tectonic activity, a possible severe flood in China, which is what I actually think might be the Atland flood mention is - but also the mention of conflagration in the Med. is what I conclude would be the effects of this eruption of gases and lava bursts. If it can be termed the Titonomachy and Clash of the Gods it certainly had some sort of impact.

The eruption of Thera imo would have been actually rather mild anywhere else but Thera and actually Vesuvius erupted much the same time as Thera so another point of conflagration around 1500BC in 2 areas - it could be Vesuvius caused way more destruction. We know now Crete barely copped a whisper of a tsunami and the eruption probably did not cause the downfall of Minoan Crete or anything.

The timeframe of the Phlegraean Plain c. 2200BC gaseous eruptions of fire would have caused major damage to the surrounds and is constant with the timeframe of the first Atland conflagration (occurring in Asia) with this being the destruction in the Med.

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Posted (edited)

No, I don't believe the effects probably did directly affect the North Sea but instead at the same time it had it's own effects, froma variety of things, yes, some tectonic movement that was throught the whole plate since it was active in one area, so it may have been a whole connection but I don't say the eruptions would have been directly responsible.

The 4.2 ky event and changes in sea level, weather changes etc, with tectonic activity, a possible severe flood in China, which is what I actually think might be the Atland flood mention is - but also the mention of conflagration in the Med. is what I conclude would be the effects of this eruption of gases and lava bursts. If it can be termed the Titonomachy and Clash of the Gods it certainly had some sort of impact.

The eruption of Thera imo would have been actually rather mild anywhere else but Thera and actually Vesuvius erupted much the same time as Thera so another point of conflagration around 1500BC in 2 areas - it could be Vesuvius caused way more destruction. We know now Crete barely copped a whisper of a tsunami and the eruption probably did not cause the downfall of Minoan Crete or anything.

The timeframe of the Phlegraean Plain c. 2200BC gaseous eruptions of fire would have caused major damage to the surrounds and is constant with the timeframe of the first Atland conflagration (occurring in Asia) with this being the destruction in the Med.

If you can prove with scientific facts that this eruption of Campi Flegrei caused tectonic plates to move and subsequently create heavy earthquakes and tsunamis in the European area, then you will have a point.

And I hope you don't say something like science is not aware of this and so on. Without science you would not have known of any eruption around 2200 BC.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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If you can prove with scientific facts that this eruption of Campi Flegrei caused tectonic plates to move and subsequently create heavy earthquakes and tsunamis in the European area, then you will have a point.

And I hope you don't say something like science is not aware of this and so on. Without science you would not have known of any eruption around 2200 BC.

.

No, I wouldn't do that, unless I felt logical about it, as I did with evidence being already found we didn't actually know about, stuff like that, when there's holes...

OK, leave it with me, point being, it really doesn't matter if it did or didn't - it's been described as the Titanomachy, I know you are sick of me saying it already but the implications of the description can actually relate to a complete and absolute change, with man and with the environment in the world in every way - as the Titans left and man took over.

I will add too, the cycles of this areas eruptions would have created fertile soil and the whole Hephaestus + Gaia thing to the Athenians then seems to fit the pattern I said before - volcano + earth = fertility

Combined with an impact by Kaali and I've showed the sign plenty of times that says around 4000 years old.

You have everything - the Flood in the East and the men coming in from that direction in many stories, both Bible and OLB, the conflagrations on this Italian plain, which went down in myth as the T., the loss of the culture of people and the beginning of only memory strands and old oral tales being compiled again, into a corpus of myths, finally put on paper when writing came around again c. 750BC in Greece.

Bed for me, if my brain can stop buzzing on high speed. :wacko:

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But did it cause turmoil in the North Sea area? In the form of floods and tsunamis? I don't think so.

Like I said - maybe Cormac wants to drop in an have his say about it - the 2200 BC eruption wasn't any way near as catastrophic as the later Mt. Thera eruption.

No, Abramelin, it wouldn't have been anywhere near as catastrophic. The eruption c.2150 +/- 50 of Campi Flegrei, a Volcanic Explosivity Index (VEI) 5 scale event comes nowhere close the Thera's VEI 7 scale eruption. It would be like comparing one persons low burp to another persons projectile vomiting. :w00t:

cormac

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If you can prove with scientific facts that this eruption of Campi Flegrei caused tectonic plates to move and subsequently create heavy earthquakes and tsunamis in the European area, then you will have a point.

And I hope you don't say something like science is not aware of this and so on. Without science you would not have known of any eruption around 2200 BC.

.

Abe, nobody said that Campi Flegrei caused tectonic plates to move. You brought up Campi Flegrei. In fact, I would like to suggest that it is highly unlikely that any single volcanic eruption could cause the plates to move. Just the opposite is likely, i.e. plate movements would cause volcanoes to erupt.

The point I tried to make in post 4653 is that the date of 2200 BC keeps on cropping up - from the demise of civilizations in the Northern hemisphere, to tsunamis all over the world. Now we hear of floods in China. Ancient scribes such as Ipuwer, the Curse of Akkad, etc. etc all talk of meteorite activites, or earthquakes or floods, famine, droughts, etc. Archaeologists picked up an increase in the salt content of the ground in Iraq and North Africa. How can we just ignore this?

I agree that a single piece of evidence does not prove anything but, in #4653 I gave 20 examples and I can assure you there are many more.

Untill we understand what happened in ca 2200 BC, all pre-history will remain guesswork.

I do not claim to be the first to raise the possibility of a world-wide disaster in 2200 BC. What I do sense in this debate, however, is that nobody even want to consider the possibility. To me it seems that the consensus is that nothing major, apart from a drought, happened in 2200 BC. How do we then explain Harvey Weiss' 3 foot layer of silt in Iraq?

Just tell me out straight that my idea is absurd and without any credibility and we can then leave it at that.

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I do not claim to be the first to raise the possibility of a world-wide disaster in 2200 BC. What I do sense in this debate, however, is that nobody even want to consider the possibility. To me it seems that the consensus is that nothing major, apart from a drought, happened in 2200 BC. How do we then explain Harvey Weiss' 3 foot layer of silt in Iraq?

Just tell me out straight that my idea is absurd and without any credibility and we can then leave it at that.

Alewyn,

As I stated previously, our planet is very active. Around the time you speak of, give or take a century or two, there were undoubtedly some localised catastrophes - a flood, volcanic eruption, maybe even an impactor. Because early communities tended to arise near water, or on fertile land such as found near volcanoes, and these early communities were not only relatively small, but quite fragile when compared to today's communities, local events which might cause some hardship today were fatal to them.

However, the only event around that time that we know of which had a global, or near-global effect was climactic - the drying of the Sahel.

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To me it seems that the consensus is that nothing major, apart from a drought, happened in 2200 BC.

If you weren't so stuck pinning everything on that one date, you might actually get somewhere IMO.

Events contemporary or nearly so to the 2200 BC date:

Mt. Etna eruption...............2330 +/- 100 BC

Mt. Vesuviius eruption..........2420 +/- 40 BC

Hekla, Iceland eruption........2310 +/- 20 BC

Campi Flegrei eruption.........2150 +/- 50 BC

Drought associated with Nile... c.2160 BC - 2130 BC and 2020 BC - 2010 BC

Historical records show that the Old Kingdom in Egypt continued successfully

until 2160 B.C. (4160 cal yr B.P.; Kitchen, 1991) when it quite suddenly collapsed into

anarchy (Bell, 1971). It has been suggested that this was due, in large part, to catastrophic

failure of the annual Nile flood for a period of 30 years. This was apparently

followed by a second, shorter 10-year period of drought starting in 2020 B.C. (4020

cal yr B.P.). At this time, it was written in the inscription of Ankhtifi that:

All of Upper Egypt was dying of hunger, to such a degree that everyone had come to eating

his children. . . .The entire country had become like a starved (?) grasshopper, with people

going to the north and to the south (in search of grain) . . . ( Bell, 1971, p. 9)

Source:

Short Contribution: Nile Flow Failure at the End of the Old Kingdom, Egypt: Strontium Isotopic and Petrologic Evidence (2003)

Jean-Daniel Stanley,1,* Michael D. Krom,2 Robert A. Cliff,2 and Jamie C. Woodward3

1Geoarchaeology-Global Change Program, E-206 NMNH, Smithsonian

Institution, Washington, DC 20560

2School of Earth Sciences, University of Leeds, Leeds LS2 9JT, United Kingdom

3School of Geography, University of Leeds, Leeds LS2 9JT, United Kingdom

The last would suggest that the Sahara desert was encroaching upon the Nile, particularly the White Nile, from the south prior to these droughts. I fail to see where a singular cause that can be pinned down to a specific point in time, your 2200 BC, is even remotely evidenced.

cormac

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Posted (edited)

Alewyn said: "Just tell me out straight that my idea is absurd and without any credibility and we can then leave it at that."

Your idea about what could have happened is not absurd.

I do not even think the OLB is absurd (the events described in it, that is).

The point is: is there scientific proof it all happened as the OLB describes, that it all happened IN EUROPE 2200 BC (and in 3 years time).

Like Leonardo already said before, the earth is an active place.

Just remember what happend in the past decade; but what happened was spread out over the entire globe.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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No, Abramelin, it wouldn't have been anywhere near as catastrophic. The eruption c.2150 +/- 50 of Campi Flegrei, a Volcanic Explosivity Index (VEI) 5 scale event comes nowhere close the Thera's VEI 7 scale eruption. It would be like comparing one persons low burp to another persons projectile vomiting. :w00t:

cormac

Yes, but a smaller volcanic upheaval and this is not like an eruption from a large volcano these are lava, gas explosions that create holes from exploding bubbles of hydrothermal gas and pressure - in a populated area can do way more damage and leave much more impact that one on an island like Thera.

I don't hear Thera being called the Titanomachy.

The people were gone from Thera before the actual eruption.

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If you weren't so stuck pinning everything on that one date, you might actually get somewhere IMO.

Events contemporary or nearly so to the 2200 BC date:

Mt. Etna eruption...............2330 +/- 100 BC

Mt. Vesuviius eruption..........2420 +/- 40 BC

Hekla, Iceland eruption........2310 +/- 20 BC

Campi Flegrei eruption.........2150 +/- 50 BC

Drought associated with Nile... c.2160 BC - 2130 BC and 2020 BC - 2010 BC

Source:

Short Contribution: Nile Flow Failure at the End of the Old Kingdom, Egypt: Strontium Isotopic and Petrologic Evidence (2003)

Jean-Daniel Stanley,1,* Michael D. Krom,2 Robert A. Cliff,2 and Jamie C. Woodward3

1Geoarchaeology-Global Change Program, E-206 NMNH, Smithsonian

Institution, Washington, DC 20560

2School of Earth Sciences, University of Leeds, Leeds LS2 9JT, United Kingdom

3School of Geography, University of Leeds, Leeds LS2 9JT, United Kingdom

The last would suggest that the Sahara desert was encroaching upon the Nile, particularly the White Nile, from the south prior to these droughts. I fail to see where a singular cause that can be pinned down to a specific point in time, your 2200 BC, is even remotely evidenced.

cormac

All those above events could have been part of this big picture, yes.

What you say about the desert is also imo connective to the drying out of the Sahara but also what this means to Egypt in the way of what they had bought in from the wetter oasis of the Sahara and not only that but what appears to be contact between Egypt and the Italian peninsula prior to 2200BC, what did it leave Egypt without could be an interesting question..?

Also, if they left the Italian peninsula in this large conflagration of Phlegrea of c. 2200BC and arrived in Libya or Egypt (as the Argive myth might have it) it may have had an impact on the economy or structure of the societies. The myth again seems to indicate that the influence of Io bought in the Apis cult, which in itself became huge, so it really shouldn't be overlooked at what came into Egypt or was a loss to Egypt from this event either.

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Posted (edited)

This is not from the pdf but was looking for what Strabo said, although it's probably online in his works, I just found this other info for now..

The celestial phenomena that pervade the narrative of the Iliad and even dominate it in books five, twenty and twenty-one, were accompanied also by terrestrial changesEarth, called Hera, participated in the strife among the gods. In the Iliad these terrestrial disturbances are narrated too: earthquakes shook the Trojan plain amid the battle of the celestial gods.

Then terribly thundered the father of the gods and men from on high; and beneath did Poseidon cause the vast earth to quake and the steep crests of the mountains. All the roots of many-fountained Ida were shaken and all her peaks, and the city of the Trojans, and the ships of the Achaeans. And seized with fear in the world below was Aidoneus, lord of the shades . . . Lest above him the earth be cloven by Poseidon, the Shaker of the Earth, and his abode be made plain to view for mortals and immortals . . . So great was the din that arose when the gods clashed in strife.1

Strabo of the first century before the present era and Pliny of the first century of this era were well aware of the physical changes that the area of western Asia Minor and of the Aegean islands did undergo. Some of these changes are ascribed to the time of the Trojan War or the time closely preceding or following it; but others may refer to earlier upheavals.2

Strabo cited Democles who recalls certain great earthquakes some of which long ago took place about Lydia and Ionia as far north as the Troad, and by their action not only were villages swallowed up, but Mount Sipylus was shatteredin the reign of Tantalus. And lakes arose from swamps, and a tidal wave submerged the Troad.3

Pliny described the changes in land and sea distribution. Land is sometimes formed . . . rising suddenly out of the sea. Delos and Rhodes, islands which have now been long famous, are recorded to have risen up in this way. More lately there have been some smaller islands formed, and he names them: Anapha, Nea, Halone, Thera, Therasia,4 Hiera, and Thia, the last of which appeared in his own time.5

Pindar said that the isle of Rhodes was not yet to be seen in the open main, but was hidden in the briny depths of the sea ; then it was born in the darknessthe sun was absent. When the sun finally lighted the earth again, a plot of land was seen rising from the bottom of the foaming main.6

Under the heading Lands Which Have Been Separated by the Sea Pliny mentions: The sea has torn Sicily from Italy,7 Cyprus from Syria, Euboea from Boeotia, and other similar instances.

Under the heading Islands Which Have Been United to the Main Land Pliny mentions Antissa which was added to Lesbos, Zephyrium to Halicarnassus, and the like in other places.

Lands Which Have Been Totally Changed Into Seas: the sea has totally carried off certain lands, and first of all, if we are to believe Plato, for an immense space where the Atlantic Ocean is now extended. More lately we see what has been produced by our inland sea; Acarnania has been overwhelmed by the Ambracian Gulf, Achaia by the Corinthian, Europe and Asia by the Propontis and Pontus. And besides these, the sea has rent asunder Leucas, Antirrhium, the Hellespont and the two Bospori.8

Pliny tells about Cities Which Have Been Absorbed by the Sea: Pyrrha and Antissa, Elice and Bura [on the Gulf of Corinth]9 from the island of Cea the sea suddenly tore off 30,000 paces with many persons on them. In like manner it carried off Eleusina in Boeotia, and half of the city of Tyndaris in Sicily.

And not to speak of bays and gulfs, the earth feeds on itself: it has devoured the very high mountain of Cybotus with the town of the Curites; also Sipylus in Magnesia, and formerly in the same place, a very celebrated city, which was called Tantalis.10

These descriptions by Pliny have corroborating references in other classical authors.11

Minor changes they were not: the Bosporus tearing Asia apart from Europe, like the breaking of the Mediterranean into the Ocean at Gibraltar were major changes. Smaller changes where single cities were engulfed or isles born could have been the after-effects of the cataclysms, which for hundreds of years still agitated the distorted strata of the earth; even today they have not completely subsided. Some of these changes occurred earlier and some later, but for the most part they occurred in historical times; the memory of them survived, and the same testimony comes from all quarters of the globe.

In the effort to regard the fantastic events in the sky as pure invention or flights of poetic imagination, the terrestrial changes described by Homer were also kept out of the discussion. Actually, Carl Blegen rejected Wilhelm Doerpfelds identification of Troy VI with the Troy of the siege because he found that the walls and structures of Troy VI had been destroyed by an earthquake apparently oblivious of the fact that the Iliad contains a description of an earthquake at the final stage of the siege.12

Thus Blegen became besieged by contradictions, derived from misinterpreting the Iliad and from following an erroneous chronology as well. To the confusion of the Furtwängler-Dörpfeld debate,13 a misreading of the Iliad brought more confusion, and made the tragedy complete.

http://www.varchive.org/dag/cilas.htm

Edited by The Puzzler

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Posted (edited)

Alewyn,

As I stated previously, our planet is very active. Around the time you speak of, give or take a century or two, there were undoubtedly some localised catastrophes - a flood, volcanic eruption, maybe even an impactor. Because early communities tended to arise near water, or on fertile land such as found near volcanoes, and these early communities were not only relatively small, but quite fragile when compared to today's communities, local events which might cause some hardship today were fatal to them.

However, the only event around that time that we know of which had a global, or near-global effect was climactic - the drying of the Sahel.

Leonardo,

First of all, we are not talking of the drying out of the Sahel only, but of the whole North African region known today as the Sahara Desert. The Sahel has continuous dry and wet spells. As recently as 2010 the Sahel again suffered a serious drought.

Scientists talk about an abrupt or sudden climate change around 4000 to 4200 years ago but, how sudden is sudden? In geological or paleo-climatic terms even a period of 300 to 500 years can be regarded as sudden. What I am talking about is an instantaneous event (for want of a better word) and something which would not exceed, say, one to three years.

Let us look at the facts:

1. Most of North Africa lies at elevations of less than 200 meters a.m.s.l. This would mean that Mega-Tsunamis could have inundated vast tracts of land.

2. Ice cores from Kilimanjaro show a 300 year drought, but what triggered this drought?

3. The Albedo index in North Africa seems to have increased from anywhere between 15% and 18% to above 30% some 4000 years ago. How sudden or gradual did this take place? Extensive grassland fires lighted by Tunguska-type explosions or exploding asteroids followed by massive floods or tsunamis would push up the reflection coefficient immediately.

4. The mega-lakes in North Africa disappeared since ca 4200 or 4000 years ago. Obviously this did not take place overnight (Lake Mega-Fezzan was the biggest lake in the world and Lake Chad is still shrinking to this day). From the sediment cores drilled here one could possibly not expect to find an instantaneous event unless one is specifically looking for such. Even if such an event (massive floods or tsunamis) did take place, the chances are that the turbulence created by the sudden inrushes of water or wave action would not have left clearly distinguishable markers in the sediment cores.

5. Now consider the following four web-sites:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1999/07/990712080500.htm

Sahara's Abrupt Desertification Started By Changes In Earth's Orbit, Accelerated By Atmospheric And Vegetation Feedbacks

ScienceDaily (July 12, 1999) WASHINGTON

One of the most striking climate changes of the past 11,000 years caused the abrupt desertification of the Saharan and Arabia regions midway through that period.

The transition to today's arid climate was not gradual, but occurred in two specific episodes. The first, which was less severe, occurred between 6,700 and 5,500 years ago. The second, which was brutal, lasted from 4,000 to 3,600 years ago. Summer temperatures increased sharply, and precipitation decreased, according to carbon-14 dating. This event devastated ancient civilizations and their socio-economic systems.

The change from the mid-Holocene climate to that of today was initiated by changes in the Earth's orbit and the tilt of Earth's axis.

But what caused the changes in the earths orbit and the tilt of the earths axis?

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=from-bountiful-to-barren-sahara-desert

From Bountiful to Barren: Rainfall Decrease Left the Sahara Out to Dry

How a once-wet landscape became one of the world's great deserts

By Adam Hadhazy May 9, 2008 | 5

The data also confirms that a drop in rainfall was the major reason the area turned into a dusty badland. Based on the sediment samples, the researchers determined that Yoa's waters (in north-eastern Chad) suddenly grew quite salty about 4,000 years ago. They speculate the salinity spiked because the streams that had previously drained salt out of the lake vanished as rainfall lessened. This abrupt event shows how a relatively small occurrencesuch as a slight slide in rainfallmay have a tremendous impact.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/390097.stm

Using a new computer simulation of the Earth's climate, German scientists say that the Sahara underwent a brutal climate change about 4,000 years ago.

Over a very short time scale - possibly as short as 300 years - it went from grasslands with low shrubs to the desert we are familiar with today. Summer temperatures increased rapidly and rainfall almost ceased. The change devastated many ancient cultures and caused those that did survive to migrate elsewhere.

From Wikipedia:

The Neolithic Subpluvial sometimes called the Holocene Wet Phase was an extended period (from about 7500-7000 BC to about 3500-3000 BC) of wet and rainy conditions in the climate history of northern Africa. It was both preceded and followed by much drier periods.

The Neolithic Subpluvial began during the 7th millennium BC and was strong for about 2000 years; it waned over time and ended in the 4th millennium BC.

Please note lake Yoas sudden increase in salinity about 4000 years ago. Again, massive sea floods, although instantaneously, would take time to evaporate and leave a discernable salt layer. So again my question: was it gradual or instantaneous?

Also remember professor Weiss observation of the sudden increase of salinity and the layer of silt in Akkad dated to 2193 BC.

I would like to suggest that Yoas about 4000 years ago and Akkads 2193 BC both refer to the same event.

Professor Weiss also commented on the sudden migrations of people all over the Middle East.

While scientists are still grabbling with the timeframes of the desertification of North Africa, we must then take notice of the eyewitness accounts of the ancient scribes. When you read their accounts, there is no doubt that they described a very sudden or almost instantaneous event.

Please read again the Ipuwer Papyrus, Gilgameshs Epic and the Curse of Akkad

Ipuwer:

1. Floods

Behold, Egypt is fallen to pouring of water, and he who poured water on the ground has carried off the strong man in misery. (Note: Swept away by a flood.)

When men send a servant for humble folk, he goes on the road until he sees the flood; the road is washed out and he stands worried.

Indeed many dead are buried in the river; the stream is a grave (tomb) and the place of embalmment has become a stream. (Note: People drowned. They would not have buried people intentionally in their only source of drinking water.)

[…] his children who are witnesses of the surging of the flood.

Indeed, the desert is throughout the land, the nomes (districts) are laid waste. (Note: Submersion and / or denudation from floods?)

... those who were on their husbands beds, let them lie on rafts.

Behold, noble ladies are now on rafts...

(note rafts and not boats this would indicate improvising in a sudden crisis)

2. Contaminated water

Indeed the Nile overflows, yet non plough for it. (Note: Not a drought)

Indeed the river is blood yet men drink of it. (Note: Muddy, salty and decaying bodies of dead people?)

Men shrink from human beings and thirst after water. (Note: Bodies decaying in water sources)

3. Earthquakes

Indeed, the land turns around as does a potters wheel,

towns are destroyed and Upper Egypt has become an empty waste. (Note: could also refer to floods and the resultant denudation of arable lands)

Indeed, those who were in the place of embalmment are laid out on the high ground, and the secrets of the embalmers are thrown down because of it. (Note: Tombs destroyed by earthquakes. It seems unlikely that tomb robbers, as some would have it, would have removed dead bodies from their graves just to dump them outside.)

Behold, the secret of the land whose limits were unknown is divulged, and the Residence is thrown down in a moment.

(The French archaeologist, Claude FA Schaeffer, concluded as far back as 1948 that earthquakes throughout Mesopotamia caused the initial collapse)

4. Fire

Indeed, doors, columns and walls are burnt up.

Behold, the fire has gone up on high, and its burning goes forth against the enemies of the land.

(Meteorite activities and Tunguska-type explosions causing widespread fires?)

5. Multiple Deaths

…and there is no man of yesterday.

Indeed, men are few, and he who places his brother in the ground is everywhere. (Note: Burying people in the ground not in the river)

6. Disease and Pestilence

Indeed, hearts are violent, pestilence is throughout the land, blood is everywhere, death is not lacking, and the mummy cloth speaks even before one come near it.

Throughout Ipuwers lamentations he recorded how hordes of refugees streamed into Egypt and ravaged and pillaged the country. He described scenes of social disorder and anarchy where the rulers and upper classes were deposed of by the working classes and wandering bandits.

The Prophecy of Neferti

See, there are great men in the governance of the land, yet what has been done is as though it had never been done.

Re must begin by refounding (rebuilding) the land which is utterly ruined, and nothing remains., and

This land is destroyed and there are none who care for it; there are none who speak and there are none who act.

The sun is veiled, and will not shine when the people would see; none will live when the sun is veiled by a cloud, and everyone is dulled by the lack of it.

…the south wind will oppose the north wind, and the sky will not be with one single wind.

Re separates himself from men; he shines, that the hour may be told, but no one knows when noon occurs, for no one can discern his shadow, no one is dazzled when he is seen; there are non whose eyes stream with water, for he is like the moon in the sky, though his accustomed time do not go astray, and his rays are in mens sight as on former occasions.

4 Neferti described the Nile without water which sounds like a severe drought:

The river of Egypt is dry and men cross the water on foot;

He continued, however: …men will seek water for ships in order to navigate it, for their course has become the riverbank, and the bank serves for water; the place of water has become a riverbank…

This could rather be interpreted as the river having changed its course because of either a flood induced silting up or an earthquake.

The Curse of Akkad

For the first time since cities were built and founded, the large fields produced no grain.

The flooded fields produced no fish.

The watered gardens produced no honey and wine,

The heavy clouds did not rain.

The curse also mentions flaming potsherds raining from the sky

From Wikipedia:

For many years, the events described in "The Curse of Akkad" were thought, like the details of Sargon's birth, to be purely fictional. But now the evidence of Tell Leilan, and recent findings of elevated dust deposits in sea-cores collected off Oman, that date to the period of Akkad's collapse suggest that climate change may have played a role.

My observation

:

From Harvey Weiss work at Tell Leilan re the increased salt content of the ground and the layer of silt, it is obvious that it was much more than just climate change.

Even at Ur a massive silt layer was discovered. (ca. 1920 AD)

The Oera Linda Book

How the bad times came.

1. During the whole summer the sun had been hidden behind the clouds, as if unwilling to look upon the earth. There was perpetual calm, and the damp mist hung like a wet sail over the houses and marshes. The air was heavy and oppressive, and in men's hearts was neither joy nor cheerfulness.

2. In the midst of this stillness the earth began to tremble as if she was dying. The mountains opened to vomit forth fire and flames. Some sank into the bosom of the earth, and in other places mountains rose out of the plain. The Old Land (Altland), called Atland by the navigators, disappeared, and the wild waves rose so high over hill and dale that everything was buried in the sea. Many people were swallowed up by the earth, and others who had escaped the fire perished in the water.

3. It was also in Finda's land (The East) that the earth vomited fire, and in Twiskland (Germany). Whole forests were burned one after the other, and when the wind blew from that quarter our land was covered with ashes. Rivers changed their course, and at their mouths new islands were formed of sand and drift.

Here we have all the elements of the Egyptian and Akkadian disasters as described before in one picture the cloud cover, the lack of wind to the fire, earthquakes, floods and death which lasted for three years, followed by refugees and anarchy.

My question again: Where did the 19th century authors of the OLB get this information from?

Also see http://personal.eunet.fi/pp/tilmari/tilmari2.htm#akkad

Edited by Alewyn

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Posted (edited)

Alewyn, maybe you are looking too far back in history for proof of the OLB.

It was mentioned in this thread before (I think..), but it having grown to gigantic proportions it will take hours to find the posts again.

So here it is:

First something about the OLB from a site in English, written by a Dutch guy:

Liudgaard, A citadel that gave rise to many names beginning with "Liud". It was located at the mouth of the Rhine and was inundated by the sea in 305 BC.

http://www.earth-history.com/Europe/Oera/oera-glossary.htm

Then this:

Ancient tsunami 'hit New York'

"It may have been a large storm, but evidence is increasingly pointing to a rare Atlantic Ocean tsunami.

Steven Goodbred, an Earth scientist at Vanderbilt University, said large gravel, marine fossils and other unusual deposits found in sediment cores across the area date to 2,300 years ago."

http://thisbluemarble.com/showthread.php?t=13366

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8028949.stm

Now, if they do find a thick layer of sediment plus large amounts of sea shells on the coast of the Netherlands, ating from around 300 BC, then you would have proof of a tsunami on exactly the right time in OLB history.

About the pdf you posted earlier: I didn't read anything of large amounts of sea shells/marine fossils at 2200 BC, so the area got flooded over time, but gradually and not catastrphically like during a tsunami.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Alewyn, maybe you are looking too far back in history for proof of the OLB.

It was mentioned in this thread before (I think..), but it having grown to gigantic proportions it will take hours to find the posts again.

So here it is:

First something about the OLB from a site in English, written by a Dutch guy:

Liudgaard, A citadel that gave rise to many names beginning with "Liud". It was located at the mouth of the Rhine and was inundated by the sea in 305 BC.

http://www.earth-history.com/Europe/Oera/oera-glossary.htm

Then this:

Ancient tsunami 'hit New York'

"It may have been a large storm, but evidence is increasingly pointing to a rare Atlantic Ocean tsunami.

Steven Goodbred, an Earth scientist at Vanderbilt University, said large gravel, marine fossils and other unusual deposits found in sediment cores across the area date to 2,300 years ago."

http://thisbluemarble.com/showthread.php?t=13366

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8028949.stm

Now, if they do find a thick layer of sediment plus large amounts of sea shells on the coast of the Netherlands, ating from around 300 BC, then you would have proof of a tsunami on exactly the right time in OLB history.

About the pdf you posted earlier: I didn't read anything of large amounts of sea shells/marine fossils at 2200 BC, so the area got flooded over time, but gradually and not catastrphically like during a tsunami.

.

Abe,

I mentioned the 305 BC flood of the OLB and the ca 300 BC New York Tsunami in my book (and on this site). You must bear in mind that the evidence of the New York Tsunami was not out in the open. They had to drill to find it. Perhaps if they looked for evidence in drill cores from the North Sea, they may or may not find the same evidence. It all depends on the composition, slope and depth in the area under scrutiny. The North Sea is protected from the Atlantic and does not have a continental shelve as you would find along the edges of the Atlantic. A tsunami in the North Sea may in all probability just churn up mud and sand like the rest of the sea floor and therefore not identifyable. I would suggest that you may have a better chance of getting such evidence off the Norwegian coast.

As for the 2200 BC event and the drying out of the Sahara, I placed this information to show the relevance to both the Oera Linda Book and Egyptian history and, in fact, world history at large.

The pyramids in Egypt was built before 2200 BC and, as I have shown, not in the desert but in grassland savanahs. Egyptologists will realy have to rethink the history and cause of the demise of the Old Kingdom in Egypt. The history of old Egypt, like all fields of study, is not cast in concrete and one must always keep an open mind - especially when new evidence is found.

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Posted (edited)

Abe,

I mentioned the 305 BC flood of the OLB and the ca 300 BC New York Tsunami in my book (and on this site). You must bear in mind that the evidence of the New York Tsunami was not out in the open. They had to drill to find it. Perhaps if they looked for evidence in drill cores from the North Sea, they may or may not find the same evidence. It all depends on the composition, slope and depth in the area under scrutiny. The North Sea is protected from the Atlantic and does not have a continental shelve as you would find along the edges of the Atlantic. A tsunami in the North Sea may in all probability just churn up mud and sand like the rest of the sea floor and therefore not identifyable. I would suggest that you may have a better chance of getting such evidence off the Norwegian coast.

As for the 2200 BC event and the drying out of the Sahara, I placed this information to show the relevance to both the Oera Linda Book and Egyptian history and, in fact, world history at large.

The pyramids in Egypt was built before 2200 BC and, as I have shown, not in the desert but in grassland savanahs. Egyptologists will realy have to rethink the history and cause of the demise of the Old Kingdom in Egypt. The history of old Egypt, like all fields of study, is not cast in concrete and one must always keep an open mind - especially when new evidence is found.

Yes, it was you who mentioned it, but I wasn't that sure if we discussed it here too; we have discussed about so many things, I start dreaming about tall dominant blond Frisian women, lol !!.

But serious now: this flood - if it happened here around 300 BC - is maybe hidden in some core samples and in some Dutch pdf/document. I assume you already tried to find something like that because you are able to read Dutch too, but I will try it myself now and hope to be lucky.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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