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Riaan

[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood

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That should read "Swedish".

The Fins say "kuusi".

:)

Yes, I wrote that on memory from your post and had the Finnic people in my head from the myths. :wacko:

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Posted (edited)

The wheel you show Otharus as we have looked at, 1/6 of that, one of those portions, is a Sextant size (1/6). Obviously 6 make a whole.

2 portions as one make 3 portions of 120 degrees each, or 6 portions of 60 degrees each to make the 360 degree circle.

What it shows is this shape and sectioning is easy to make into the 60 unit number.

Usually said to be a Babylonian unit.

----------

I noticed that when the Sea People came into Egypt the Egyptian King, Ramesses III (speaking below) knew the Earth was round and knew about the Equator. This would be c. first half of 12th century BC...

The foreign countries (ie. Sea Peoples) made a conspiracy in their islands, All at once the lands were removed and scattered in the fray. No land could stand before their arms: from Hatti, Qode, Carchemish, Arzawa and Alashiya on, being cut off [ie. destroyed] at one time. A camp was set up in Amurru. They desolated its people, and its land was like that which has never come into being. They were coming forward toward Egypt, while the flame was prepared before them. Their confederation was the Peleset, Tjeker, Shekelesh, Denyen and Weshesh, lands united. They laid their hands upon the land as far as the circuit of the earth, their hearts confident and trusting: "Our plans will succeed!"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Peoples

12th century BC the Egyptians knew the Earth was round and it had an equator, the circuit of the Earth runs through Kenya at the top of Lake Victoria and right at Mt Meru.

This must have been imo where the Sea People came down to according to Ramesses report and he knew it was the circuit of the Earth.

----------

I can count to the number 60 with my fingers like in Babylonian, you have, on one hand, not counting your thumb, 4 fingers which makes 12 sections - 3 on each finger - so you use your thumb to point to the section and count - 1,2,3 up one finger and then the next 4,5,6 etc, you get 12 on one hand and then you put up your thumb on your other hand, then keep going and when you get to 24 you put up your pointer, that is 24 you have on one hand holding 2 fingers up and you keep going on your other 4 fingers, it will take you to 60. Much better than only 10.

My point being, the 2 concepts of the portions of the one whole as a Sextant for navigation could be very early, which led to it's introduction in other parts of the world, this concept spreads through everything. 10 may not be what was used at all originally in Northern Europe, a point Alewyn bought up, did the 60 base numeral system really spring up in Babylon or it is actually devised off the Juul wheel..

Edited by The Puzzler

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You seem to forget that the OLB people used the decimal numeral system.

And these numerals were introduced by dear ol' Godfried the Witking...

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Posted (edited)

You seem to forget that the OLB people used the decimal numeral system.

And these numerals were introduced by dear ol' Godfried the Witking...

They had numbers 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9 and 0 but what gives you the idea they had decimal numeral system?

I'll edit that, what makes you think they didn't have both? 6 for astrology and working out nautical things and 10 for a system of basic 10 decimal counting. One hundred and so many units of 10 to count as well?

They did have 6-sided citadel towers.

Just like we use both now, it's only logical they work in conjunction with each other.

Not that long ago I was counting in (base sixty) inches, that is 12 inches to a ruler of 30 cm. English money is also 6 based...threepence, sixpence - we went decimal around 1966, before that we used the 60 number system in money and measurements as well.

Edited by The Puzzler

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They had numbers 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9 and 0 but what gives you the idea they had decimal numeral system?

I'll edit that, what makes you think they didn't have both? 6 for astrology and working out nautical things and 10 for a system of basic 10 decimal counting. One hundred and so many units of 10 to count as well?

They did have 6-sided citadel towers.

Just like we use both now, it's only logical they work in conjunction with each other.

Not that long ago I was counting in (base sixty) inches, that is 12 inches to a ruler of 30 cm. English money is also 6 based...threepence, sixpence - we went decimal around 1966, before that we used the 60 number system in money and measurements as well.

So you agree the decimal system was introduced long after the 12 based system?

So... it could not show up in an 4200 years old story?

su_numbers.gif

http://www.ancientscripts.com/sumerian.html

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Posted (edited)

So you agree the decimal system was introduced long after the 12 based system?

So... it could not show up in an 4200 years old story?

su_numbers.gif

http://www.ancientscripts.com/sumerian.html

Another interesting fact about Sumerian (and later cuneiform systems as well) is that the numeric system is both decimal (base-10) and sexagesimal (base-60).

I think the 2 numeric systems were being used together from a very early date.

Sumerian civilization took form in the Uruk period (4th millennium BC), continuing into the Jemdat Nasr and Early Dynastic periods. It was conquered by the Semitic-speaking kings of the Akkadian Empire around 2400 BC. Native Sumerian rule re-emerged for about a century in the third dynasty of Ur (Sumerian Renaissance) of the 21st to 20th century (short chronology).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumer

The Akkadians took the Sumerian numbers. Nothing says the concept could not have been first used somewhere else or sprang up independently elsewhere or that at one time everyone was using it.

That's my thought and I have said everything on it so that's what I mean by I am not wasting time here spending 2 pages quabbling over that, I'm not positive but that's my thought for now.

---------

From the translators preface:-

His concluding remarks are to the following effect

"If the book is a romance, then I must admit that it has been written with a good object, and by a clever man, because the sentiments expressed in it are of a highly moral tendency; and the facts related, so far as they can be controlled by regular history, are not untruthful; and where they deal with events of which we have no historical records, they do not offend our ideas of possibility or even probability."

http://www.sacred-texts.com/atl/olb/olb01.htm

This is why it's wasting my time to debate on stuff like this with you - you cannot actually prove any of the OLB is false, it's not untruthful, everything in it is possible and even probable.

Edited by The Puzzler

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This is why it's wasting my time to debate on stuff like this with you - you cannot actually prove any of the OLB is false, it's not untruthful, everything in it is possible and even probable.

To me this is not about the OLB being truthfull, possible or probable, for me it is about finding proof it is as old as people claim it is.

And you do that by finding facts that could not have been known in the 19th century.

You can draw in cultures from all over the world, but it will only make this thread grow into monstreous proportions and still not prove a thing.

I posted about a Dunkirk Transgression that occurred around 300 BC. Now THAT is something not known in the 19th century, and is extremely close to a date of a flood in the OLB. The question is ofcourse, was that Dunkirk Transgression a disasterous flood, or just the result of slowly but surely rising sealevels.

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To me this is not about the OLB being truthfull, possible or probable, for me it is about finding proof it is as old as people claim it is.

And you do that by finding facts that could not have been known in the 19th century.

You can draw in cultures from all over the world, but it will only make this thread grow into monstreous proportions and still not prove a thing.

I posted about a Dunkirk Transgression that occurred around 300 BC. Now THAT is something not known in the 19th century, and is extremely close to a date of a flood in the OLB. The question is ofcourse, was that Dunkirk Transgression a disasterous flood, or just the result of slowly but surely rising sealevels.

Well that's fine. We all have our reasons for being here.

Mine is not so much the date of the book, to me it doesn't matter if was copied out last week. The contents and message are my main interest in showing that they could have occurred and WERE possible and even probable.

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Well that's fine. We all have our reasons for being here.

Mine is not so much the date of the book, to me it doesn't matter if was copied out last week. The contents and message are my main interest in showing that they could have occurred and WERE possible and even probable.

With the date I do not mean the date of the copy, but the date of the story, or better: was it created in the 19th century or many centuries earlier.

It's the difference between a novel of historical fiction (alternative history) and a document of true history.

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With the date I do not mean the date of the copy, but the date of the story, or better: was it created in the 19th century or many centuries earlier.

It's the difference between a novel of historical fiction (alternative history) and a document of true history.

Maybe it's like the Bible.

Some historical fiction but also a document of true history that cannot be fitted within our modern timeframes but one that ancient people had no trouble understanding as truth.

It's an enigma that's for sure.

The book is one thing but it's been copied off old walls that are not there anymore, washed away by the sea - whatever you think you should find, you just may not and it means not a thing to anything in the book.

When the book was written doesn't matter, most of it was taken from another place - you are only finding out when it was copied out into the manuscript and we know that anyway by the dates of the Book of Adela - c. 500 BC.

When you write something in 500BC that has been known history and kept as records prior to that elsewhere - then copied out - you can't be sure what you have written is truth, it doesn't make the whole book a fake nor many or all of the events untrue.

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Either I don't understand you, or you don't understand me, lol.

With historical fiction I mean a made-up history, fabricated, fantasy. Woven around true historical facts.

And all that by someone or several people in the 19th century.

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Posted (edited)

What we have is megaliths in Israel, these interest me because of the connection of them to Europe megalithic builders. I recently added a post to another thread with a claim from someone who says the megaliths through Europe may be the 'waymarkers' God's people always erected. It appears to me the Hebrews may even be European.

This is another site, this guy has deciphered the megaliths in Israel and claims they are astronomical alignment markers.

Claims to the Holy Land - A Historical Perspective

Who rightfully claims the Holy Land of the Fertile Crescent?

In the previous posting, we published our "Decipherment of the Megaliths of the Holy Land", showing that these megalithic sites were erected ca. 3000 BC as an astronomically based survey of the land by the megalith builders.

Although the identity of the megalith makers may still be open to question, there is no question that megalithic markers served as boundary stones in ancient days. See Stars Stones and Scholars.

holyland18thdynasty.png

These boundaries were persistent and the owners of lands so marked have retained them for thousands of years, all over the world.

It is quite clear, for example, that the Holy Land was ruled by the Pharaohs of Egypt in the 18th Dynasty prior to the Amarna Period. See The Oxford History of Ancient Egypt, edited by Ian Shaw, p. 233. Pharaonic presence in the Holy Land goes back to the early Dynasties (pp. 65-66, 77-78) and we think that Pharaonic civilization goes hand in hand with the history of the Hebrews.

Shaw writes (pp. 65-66) that starting with Flinders Petrie, many persons have claimed that Egyptian civilization was founded by a migrating group of people, and we also hold to that view, especially since the recent discovery of "long boats" at Abydos dating to ca. 3000 BC.

Dieter Braasch in his book Pharaonen und Sumerer - Megalithiker aus dem Norden [The Pharoahs and Sumerians - Megalith Builders from the North], analyzes the history of ship-building technology in ancient days and suggests that the boat-building technology used by the Ancient Egyptians to make seaworthy craft had to come from elsewhere originally, even if it were then later developed indigenously. It is also worth mentioning in this regard that the oldest known wooden boats stem from the Baltic Sea ca. 6000 BC.

http://ancientworldblog.blogspot.com/2005/01/claims-to-holy-land-historical.htm

Boian pottery is like Yarmukian pottery in design. Hence, incised pottery is the pottery of the peoples fleeing the Black Sea Flood. From the point of view of the present book, this means that the people of the Flood, the Magdalenians, had arrived in the Near East, catalyzing ancient Near East Civilization. Indeed, the incised herring-bone design is then later found on the artifacts of the Pharaohs."

This would mean that the migrant peoples were seafarers who came from Europe via the Black Sea, a hypothesis substantiated by ancient trade routes ("The Baltic Sea-Vistula-Dnieper-Black Sea water route was one of the most ancient trade-routes, the Amber Road, on which amber and other items were traded from Northern Europe to Greece, Asia, Egypt, and elsewhere") and by the wooden boats from 3000 BC at Abydos.

Edited by The Puzzler

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Four questions to be answered:

1. The information, that the manuscript of the Oera Linda Boek and Worp van Thabor have been stolen by Cornelis over de Linden comes from an article in the Enkhuizer Courant of January, 9th 1934. In a letter to the editor Hajo Last (died 1934 in Bussum, age 83) writes that he was a colleague of Hein Kofman (grandson of Aafje over de Linden, aunt of Cornelis over de Linden. He writes that 'Nephew Over de Linden has stolen them from my mother'. Source: Het Geheimzinnige Handschrift van de Familie Over de Linden, pag. 11. This might be gossip.

2. Joast Halbertsma specialized in the origin of the Frisian language and law. The main source for both of them was the Riustringian dialect, he was very familiar with. See literature. A particular aspect of the Riustringian dialect was the availability yet of negative verbs (nildon - they did not want), which are found frequently in the Oera Linda Boek. Negative verbs disappeared in the younger stages of Old Frisian.

Joost Hiddes Halbertsma, ‘Mengelwerk.’, ‘De overblijfselen der Gothische taal, zoo verre zij tegenwoordig bekend zijn. Door J.H. Halbertsma,’ In: Vaderlandsche letteroefeningen. Jaargang 1835 (1835), in DBNL

J.H.H., Ontwerp van inteekening op een handschrift uit de 15de eeuw, getiteld: Jurisprudentia Frisica (Friesche Regtkennis) (Dev., 20 okt. 1833).

3. Foddik. The ending -ik shows a Slavic (*vaddik) or Hebrew origin (*fadduch), not a Greek or Latin origin, like in photo = light. So far I didn't locate the word in slang dictionaries. The word must come from the Jordaan dialect of Amsterdam, which has been investigated by Joast Halbertsma and Johan Winkler. I doubt about a Hebrew origin, because Jews lived in an other part of Amsterdam.

4. About the very old bookstore of the family Over de Linden in Enkhuizen, please read the information below (in Dutch). Aunt Aafje Over de Linden, who gave the manuscripts to Cornelis over de Linden, was married to Pieter Bais, who joined the family as a bookseller in Enkhuizen. No wonder, that Cornelis over de Linden and Stadermann became friends. Stadermann himself was a former experienced bookbinder. He bought the books for Cornelis over de Linden in Amsterdam.

Het geslacht Over de Linden stamt uit Enkhuizen en bestaat uit een tak van drukkers en boekverkopers (Johannes over de Linden > Drukkerij Over de Linden Posthuma) en een tak van (scheeps)timmerlieden (Andries over de Linden). Cornelis over de Linden, eigenaar van het Oera Linda Boek, behoort even als tante Aafje over de Linden, die het boek in bewaring had, tot de tak van de (scheeps)timmerlieden, die met het vertrek van Cornelis over de Linden naar den Helder een Helderse tak vormde.

STAMBOOM OVER DE LINDEN

Johannis (Jan) over de Linden I

Boekhandelaar

Begint in 1764 een boekhandel aan de Nieuwe Westerstraat te Enkhuizen

*

Janke Johannes van der Woud

1. Johannes Jansz over de Linden II

18 sept 1752- na 25-5-1783. Geboortedatum ook dec. 1752 te Enkhuizen .

Boekverkoper te Enkhuizen

Bijgenaamd: Jan de Diender

2. Andries Jansz over de Linden te Enkhuizen

14-7-1759 te Enkhuizen - 25-4-1820 te Enkhuizen

-meester timmerman

-scheepstimmerman

-stadswerken tot ca. 1800

Zie onder.

*Willem Over de Lindens overgrootvader was in 1764 een zaak begonnen in de Nieuwe Westerstraat, welke door zijn zoons werd voortgezet op het Venedie en door Willem Over de Linden door koop van een huis naar de Oude Westerstraat werd overgebracht.

*Drukkerij Over de Linden Posthuma in Enkhuizen is failliet. Vijfentwintig medewerkers zijn werkloos. De pers staat sinds gisteren stil. Het meeste personeel is naar huis gestuurd. Enkele medewerkers zorgen voor de financiële afwikkeling. De drukkerij kampte al langer met problemen zoals vele andere in de grafische industrie. Met het faillissement komt het eind aan de roemrijke historie van een bedrijf dat 245 jaar geleden werd opgericht door Jan Over de Linden.

Johannes Jansz over de Linden II

18 sept 1752- na 25-5-1783. Geboortedatum ook dec. 1752 te Enkhuizen .

Boekverkoper te Enkhuizen

Verhuist naar het Venedie

Naam: Jan over Lende

Bijgenaamd: Jan de Diender

Testament 25-5-1783, Naam: Jan over Lende

Geh. op 15.9.1776 met Willemina ter Beest ged. 2.5.1753 te Enkhuizen, dochter van Gerrit ter Beest. Geb 1710 te Dinxperlo en Judina Geertruida Curtenius uit Amsterdam, geb. 7-4-1720 te Hasselt, overl 28.10-1782 te Enkhuizen. Curtenius is een geslacht van artsen en theologen.

Johannes (Jan) Jan over de Linden III

Ged. 27.11.1776 te Enkhuizen – 16.1. 1858 te Enkhuizen

Boekdrukker

(vermeld 10.6.1827, 29.7.1826, 18.5.1828 en 30.6.1839)

Geh. met Johanna Bikkenhorst

Geb. ca. 1786

Trijntje over de Linden

Johannes Jansz over de Linden. De oudste tot nu toe bekende aantekening over de familie Over de Linden te Enkhuizen is die uit het doopregister van de nederlands hervormde gemeente waarin vermeld staat dat op 18 september 1752, Johannes Jans, zoon van Jan Andries en Janke Johannes van der Woud, is gedoopt. Jan Andries, bekend als „Jan de Diender", testeerde op 25 mei 1783, ten overstaan van notaris Broerius van der Velden. In dit testament wordt hij Johannes Over de Linden genoemd, maar de comparant zelf tekent als Jan Over Lende. Lende is de oude naam van het riviertje Linde in Zuid-Friesland.

Jan over de Linden III

Geb. ca. 1786

Boekdrukker (vermeld 10.6.1827, 29.7.1826, 18.5.1828 en 30.6.1839)

Geh. met Johanna Bikkenhorst

Geb. ca. 1786

Johannis over de Linden IV

Geb. 2.10.1803

Geh. met Antje Kramer

Geb. 1.7.1801

Adrianus over de Linden

Geb. 6.9.1807

Geh. met Petronella Heiman

Geb. 25.3.1808

Jantje over de Linden

Geb. 1.2.1811

Geh. met Dirk Bloemendaal

Geb. 2.9.1805

Johannis over de Linden IV

Geb. 2.10.1803

Geh. met Antje Kramer

Geb. 1.7.1801

Willem over de Linden

Geb. ca. 1829 – Overl. Voor 4.4.1896

Woont: Enkhuizen

Boekbinder, Boekdrukker , boekhandelaar(vermeld 30.6.1839, 13.6.1867, 8.7.1875 en 6.10.1887)

Verhuist naar Oude Westerstraat

Geh. op 30.6.1839 te Enkhuizen met Jacoba Neever/Niever

Geb. ca. 1829

Willem over de Linden

Geb. ca. 1829 – Overl. Voor 4.4.1896

Woont: Enkhuizen

Boekbinder, Boekdrukker , boekhandelaar(vermeld 30.6.1839, 13.6.1867, 8.7.1875 en 6.10.1887)

1870 verhuist naar Oude Westerstraat.

Geh. op 30.6.1839 te Enkhuizen met Jacoba Neever/Niever

Geb. ca. 1829

1. Johanna over de Linden

Geb. ca. 1839

Geh. met Simon Bok

Geb. ca. 1849

2. Maria over de Linden

Geb. ca. 1849

Geh. met Simon Bok

Geb. ca. 1849

3. Aafje over de Linden

Geb. ca. 1854

Geh. met Pieter Bais

geb. ca. 1850

Boekhandelaar, uitgever

Westersstraat 60.

14-01-1870: NA 1.44 Gerardus Petrus Nijhoff verkoopt het huis aan Willem Over de Linden, drukker en boekverkoper. Onder de voorwaarden dat gedurende het leven van de vorige eigenaar er geen tabak of sigaren-affaire in mag worden uitgeoefend op een boete van 1500 gulden. Het huis wordt verkocht voor de prijs van ƒ 1.800,—.

Willem Over de Lindens overgrootvader was in 1764 een zaak begonnen in de Nieuwe Westerstraat, welke door zijn zoons werd voortgezet op het Venedie en door Willem Over de Linden door koop van een huis naar de Oude Westerstraat werd overgebracht.

Een van de werkzaamheden betrof het drukken van het 'Predikbeurtenbriefje'. J. Over de Linden kocht van Willem Palenstein Semeins het recht tot het drukken daarvan, waarvoor Semeins die toen 77 jaar oud was, zolang hij leefde, elke week een gulden zou ontvangen. Aangezien hij de leeftijd van 97 bereikte, werd daarvoor een belangrijk bedrag betaald.

23-06-1887: NA 11.122 Met de scheiding van de goederen na het overlijden van Jacoba Niever, huisvrouw van Willem Over de Linden, blijft het huis in zijn bezit. De drukkerij is boven gevestigd.

04-04-1896: NA 11.140 Na het overlijden van Willem Over de Linden vindt de scheiding van de goederen plaats. Pieter Bais, gehuwd met Aafje Over de Linden, komt in bezit van het huis, getaxeerd op ƒ 3.400,—.

25-07-1911: NA 1.118 Pieter Bais, boekhandelaar en uitgever, draagt het huis over aan Bernard Adriaan Buningh, leraar aan de H.B.S. Op voorwaarde dat er in het pand geen boek- muziek- kunsthandel of boekdrukkerij gedreven zal worden, zolang een dergelijke zaak aan de overkant is gevestigd, op een boete van 5000 gulden. Het huis wordt verkocht voor ƒ 3.000,—

(Bron: Enkhuizer Wetenswaardigheden, E.C. de Vries en H.G. de Vries)

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Claims on the Holy Land have always been a problem and deep within everything to do with everything this hides it's ugly head.

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Inkishush ca. 2135–2129 BC First Gutian ruler on the Sumerian king list

Inkishush or Inkicuc (proto-ON 'Ingvi's-son'?) was a Gutian ruler in Sumer from ca. 2135 BC to 2129 BC. Inkishush is the first Gutian ruler mentioned in the Sumerian King List.

Ingvi...

Inkishush sounds rather like Inka too.

Here's another King on the list...Ibranum ca. 2074–2073 BC

I wonder what Ibranum did?

The last King was Tirigan - he reigned 40 days and that would be 40 nights too I gather - the chaos of the Gutians was stopped by the Sumerians once again.

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Thank you for the answers, Menno.

Here's my comments to them.

1. The information, that the manuscript of the Oera Linda Boek and Worp van Thabor have been stolen by Cornelis over de Linden comes from an article in the Enkhuizer Courant of January, 9th 1934. In a letter to the editor Hajo Last (died 1934 in Bussum, age 83) writes that he was a colleague of Hein Kofman (grandson of Aafje over de Linden, aunt of Cornelis over de Linden. He writes that 'Nephew Over de Linden has stolen them from my mother'. Source: Het Geheimzinnige Handschrift van de Familie Over de Linden, pag. 11. This might be gossip.

It might be gossip, but it might also be true.

If it's true, it's of extreme relevance.

Remarkable that Jensma did not mention this in his book.

I hope you will add more from this source to your website.

2. Joast Halbertsma specialized in the origin of the Frisian language and law. The main source for both of them was the Riustringian dialect, he was very familiar with. See literature. A particular aspect of the Riustringian dialect was the availability yet of negative verbs (nildon - they did not want), which are found frequently in the Oera Linda Boek. Negative verbs disappeared in the younger stages of Old Frisian.

"Nildon", which can either be called a negative verb or just a contraction of "ne wildon", is not exclusively Rustringian.

Old Westfrisian Laws (#55 or LV):

IEF HI NELLE,

Als hij niet wil,

If he (the magistrate) will not (do so),

SO NE ACH HIM NIMMA IOWA LADA NER BOTA,

zo acht hem niemand laden noch boeten te geven,

no man need tender him oaths or compensation,

NER NIMMA SINE BAN THELDA.

noch niemand zijne ban dulden.

nor obey his orders.

3. Foddik. (...) The word must come from the Jordaan dialect of Amsterdam, which has been investigated by Joast Halbertsma and Johan Winkler. (...)

Why must "foddik" come from the Jordaan dialect of Amsterdam?

Because that dialect was studied by Halbertsma?

In that case, there is a similar mistake going on as with Rustringian.

I suspect that your reasoning is like this:

1. Halbertsma wrote the OLB.

2. He studied Rustringian and the Jordaan dialect.

3. The unknown word "foddik" must come from the Jordaan dialect.

It's interesting to know if "foddik" was part of the Jordaan dialect, but whether or not this is true, it does not add to the proof that Halbertsma did it.

In theory it's possible that the OLB was inspired by various languages and dialects, but it's equally possible (and in my opinion more likely) that those languages and dialects have similarities with the OLB language because the latter is indeed ancient, and they stem from it.

4. About the very old bookstore of the family Over de Linden in Enkhuizen, please read the information below (in Dutch). Aunt Aafje Over de Linden, who gave the manuscripts to Cornelis over de Linden, was married to Pieter Bais, who joined the family as a bookseller in Enkhuizen. (...)

First, a correction:

You have confused two people with the same name:

Cornelis' aunt, Aafje Over de Linden (1798-1849) was married 1. to Hendrik Reuvers (1796-1845), 2. to Koop Meijlof (ca.1804-ca.1875)

The other Aafje (a.k.a. Antje) Over de Linden (1854-1924) was married to book printer and publisher Pieter Bais (1850-1926). This Aafje's father was a cousin to the second degree of Cornelis Over de Linden (1811-1874).

For a more complete and more accurate Over de Linden genealogy, see:

http://fryskednis.blogspot.com/2011/04/over-de-linden-genealogy.html

Second, and most importantly, you seem to have assumed that the manuscript was in the possession of any Over de Linden bookshop, as it does not say so in your quotes.

Conclusion: This is not an established fact.

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Posted (edited)

Inkishush ca. 21352129 BC First Gutian ruler on the Sumerian king list

Inkishush or Inkicuc (proto-ON 'Ingvi's-son'?) was a Gutian ruler in Sumer from ca. 2135 BC to 2129 BC. Inkishush is the first Gutian ruler mentioned in the Sumerian King List.

Ingvi...

Inkishush sounds rather like Inka too.

Here's another King on the list...Ibranum ca. 20742073 BC

I wonder what Ibranum did?

The last King was Tirigan - he reigned 40 days and that would be 40 nights too I gather - the chaos of the Gutians was stopped by the Sumerians once again.

I thought, "Havent't we talked about this before?" And we did, lol:

(post 1567, page 105)

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=184645&st=1560

And that Wiki page about "Inkishush" is the only one that tries to explain the name as maybe being proto Old Norse.

I mean, is "sush" proto-ON for son??

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Posted (edited)

So, can anyone summarize a credible hoax theory by now?

Edited by Otharus

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I thought, "Havent't we talked about this before?" And we did, lol:

(post 1567, page 105)

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=184645&st=1560

And that Wiki page about "Inkishush" is the only one that tries to explain the name as maybe being proto Old Norse.

I mean, is "sush" proto-ON for son??

.

I rechecked what you wrote in reply and I beg to differ on them being like Fryans, barbarians because they didn't follow the rules of Marduk and all giants were barbarians accordingly. They didn't know the system but had Kings and were powerful enough to overthrow Sumer at the time.

Note they were known later as Western MEDIANS - Iranian populations.

In the first millennium BC, the term "Gutium" was used to refer to the region between the Zagros and the Tigris, also known as western Media. All tribes to the east and northeast who often had hostile relations with the peoples of lowland Mesopotamia, were referred to as Gutian[9] or Guti. Assyrian royal annals use the term Gutians to refer to Iranian populations otherwise known as Medes or Mannaeans; and as late as the reign of Cyrus the Great of Persia, the famous general Gubaru (Gobryas) was described as the "governor of Gutium".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gutian_people

Gorbyras, one was Cyrus the Great's general and one was Darius' helper. We know also that Persian was an offshoot of the Medians most likely and that the Achaemenid line rejected the too powerful Magi, which went on to try and overthrow Persia as well as finally coming into their own with the Chaldean empire.

What the Gutians were was NOT Semitic nor Middle eastern. They took on the language of the Akkadians.

I'll give you Tirigan first.

Wiki used to have Tirigan as TYR's BATTLE. I note that's gone but I caught it.

Tyr's Battle reigned for 40 days (and 40 nights).

I think you're missing it.

igan - gans, gians - giants - the gians - I investigated that word before - pelas GIANS. Varangians.

The gian is gengi OLD NORSE for companions/gang.

I say Tirigan actually means Tyr's companions of oath (gang) - Tyr's Gang - but also to obey this gang, like a tie to a gang, almost like a colour or badge gangs wear to swear an oath to that gang. Your gang is your companions of an oath.

Greek Várangos and Old East Slavic varęgŭ are derived from Old Norse væringi, originally a compound of vár "pledge" and gengi "companion", i.e. "a sworn person" or "a foreigner who has taken service with a new lord by a treaty of fealty to him, or protégé

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varangians

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gubaru

Do you watch Star Trek? the Farengi. It's really the same word as Varangian. B)

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It is an interesting theory to suppose that the Guti, Getae, Goths, Juts, Jats and more were all names for the same people who went on to become Kurds as well as assimilated into other cultures. I found a fairly extensive site, not sure of its credibility but they case is that rufism (red hair) is the main identifying mark genetically. Don't expect you to agree but check it out.

Historic Kurdistan as ancient Gutium. Describing the Descent of modern Kurds from legendary Gutians of Yore. Relation of the Jats with the Gutians & Goths. Disclosing the Gutians to be a branch of the Getae, Goths or Jats of Punjab, and hence of Scythian or East Iranic race. Their relationship with the Tocharians or Thakurs. Red-haired Features of Gutians. Connections of the Gutians with the Goths. Relations of Gutians with the Tokharians. Sumerian Renaissance under the Heroic Gutians. Peak of Sumeria & Gutian Golden Age under Gudea. Linguistic evidence for Gutian descent of Kurds. Refutation of views of self-hating Kurds and Anti-Kurdish scholars.

World-Wide Migrations of the Gutians

According to linguistics and internal evidence of the Avesta, the Irano-Aryan language family originated high in the splendid Hind Kush or "Indian Kushana" mountains of Afghanistan. Historical data indicates that one of these Proto-Iranic-speaking tribes was denominated 'Gut' or 'Got'. This ancient Iranic root denominated "warrior", as the erudite Waddell notes, "the affixed title of Gut or "Goth" or 'Warrior'" (Waddell 1929, p.114) One branch of this legendary Gut or warrior tribe migrated to India, where they eventually became the renowned Jats.

Another branch migrated to Europe, where they became variously known as Goths, Gaetonnes, and Getae, inaugurating the well-known Gothic phase of architecture and giving their name to several places such as Jutland and Gotland. Yet another branch migrated to Sumeria, establishing one of the greatest empires in Sumerian history. Denominated Gutian, this branch drove back the barbaric Semitic Akkadian invaders and inaugurated the famous Neo-Sumerian renaissance. A researcher summarizes the history of the Gutians thus: "The Guti/Qutils of central and southern Kurdistan, after gradually unifying the smaller mountain principalities, became strong enough in 2250 BC to actually annex Sumeria and the rest of lowland Mesopotamia. A Guti/Qutil dynasty ruled Sumeria for 130 years until 2120 BC." (Izady 1993)

http://jatistan.blogspot.com/2010/11/glorious-gutians.html

If there is substance to the claims then that is a pretty amazing area that the culture could have covered.

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Posted (edited)

Inkishush.

Does shush mean son?

OK, well I said Sheshonq coud be Cecrops so I already explained to get sh to c so the word we might look for is CUC not shush.

Here some words I found that mean GRANDCHILD. I tried for cuc as child and found it was grandchild..

It does seem to be cuc in Indonesian and it then appears to be vnuck and assorted variations of that. The overall sound is UCK for child.

Malay: cucu Polish: wnuk, wnuczka Persian: نوه Pashto: لمسى ، د زوى يا لور اولاد

Portuguese: neto Romanian: nepoţi, nepot, nepoată Russian: внук; внучка

Slovak: vnúča, vnuk, vnučka Slovenian: vnuk, vnukinja Serbian: unuk

Edit to add link: http://www.definitions.net/definition/grandchild

SO, shush as cuc or vnuk can actually be grandchild. It could be relative. I'll be back.

Edited by The Puzzler

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Using that same example I just realised that the K in KNIFE could be equal to the vn in vnuk.

To get Ingvi from Inki as they said, the k would have to become a nv or maybe even vn, and if the vn sound in vnuk is Kuc/cuc as it transferred into Malaysian and other ones - the V can be a K.

So, Inki could maybe be Invni...

I'll try and narrow it down better.

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Posted (edited)

If you had good eyes you would have seen Nepot in there too - Neptune. I'll concentrate on Inkishush for now, Inka and Neef (Nep) Teunis were brothers. The word also transfers to nephew.

At Aldergamude there lived an old sea-king whose name was Sterik, and whose deeds were famous. This old fellow had three nephews. Wodin, the eldest, lived at Lumkamakia, near the Eemude, in Oostflyland, with his parents. He had once commanded troops. Teunis and Inka were naval warriors, and were just then staying with their father at Aldergamude.

Ingvi is generally Freyr so I wouldn't be suprised if what the Gutians bought in was Apollo and Artemis.

Invni's grandchildren.

That's about the best I can get out of it for now.

Freyr's (children). Ingvi's sons.

Edited by The Puzzler

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Posted (edited)

I rechecked what you wrote in reply and I beg to differ on them being like Fryans, barbarians because they didn't follow the rules of Marduk and all giants were barbarians accordingly. They didn't know the system but had Kings and were powerful enough to overthrow Sumer at the time.

Note they were known later as Western MEDIANS - Iranian populations.

In the first millennium BC, the term "Gutium" was used to refer to the region between the Zagros and the Tigris, also known as western Media. All tribes to the east and northeast who often had hostile relations with the peoples of lowland Mesopotamia, were referred to as Gutian[9] or Guti. Assyrian royal annals use the term Gutians to refer to Iranian populations otherwise known as Medes or Mannaeans; and as late as the reign of Cyrus the Great of Persia, the famous general Gubaru (Gobryas) was described as the "governor of Gutium".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gutian_people

Gorbyras, one was Cyrus the Great's general and one was Darius' helper. We know also that Persian was an offshoot of the Medians most likely and that the Achaemenid line rejected the too powerful Magi, which went on to try and overthrow Persia as well as finally coming into their own with the Chaldean empire.

What the Gutians were was NOT Semitic nor Middle eastern. They took on the language of the Akkadians.

I'll give you Tirigan first.

Wiki used to have Tirigan as TYR's BATTLE. I note that's gone but I caught it.

Tyr's Battle reigned for 40 days (and 40 nights).

I think you're missing it.

igan - gans, gians - giants - the gians - I investigated that word before - pelas GIANS. Varangians.

The gian is gengi OLD NORSE for companions/gang.

I say Tirigan actually means Tyr's companions of oath (gang) - Tyr's Gang - but also to obey this gang, like a tie to a gang, almost like a colour or badge gangs wear to swear an oath to that gang. Your gang is your companions of an oath.

Greek Várangos and Old East Slavic varęgŭ are derived from Old Norse væringi, originally a compound of vár "pledge" and gengi "companion", i.e. "a sworn person" or "a foreigner who has taken service with a new lord by a treaty of fealty to him, or protégé

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varangians

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gubaru

Do you watch Star Trek? the Farengi. It's really the same word as Varangian. B)

I quote from the link I posted (my former post):

"According to the OLB, the Frya people entered the Mediterranean, and then invaded the Middle East and the Punjab and maybe further. They were a lot more civilized than the Akkadian tablets tell us about the Gutians. OK, they were enemies, but the Gutians show now resemblence at all with these 'Frya people'.

And... the Goths from Gotland island (Sweden) travelled across the Baltic, invaded Poland, and then travelled south to the Black Sea area. Nowhwere do we read anything about that in the OLB. Did they forget?? Heh."

The OLB does mention the Geertmen and their travels, but never does it say they met a related tribe in Persian/India/Punjab.

And the reason some of the etymology of the Gutian kings disappeared is obvious: no source is mentioned, and the one creating it (or someone else editing it) must have thought it was b... wrong.

Also on the page I linked I said something about this "Inki". It's much more probable it's another way of writing "Enki", a Sumerian god.

You speak Thai? They call us all, Europeans, Farang. That's because the French did a lot of 'missionary' work their, lol.

"igan - gans, gians - giants - the gians - I investigated that word before - pelas GIANS. Varangians.

The gian is gengi OLD NORSE for companions/gang."

You know what the Old Norse word for giant is? "Huin". We Dutch adopted it long ago, and mixed it with the Huns. That's why we now call those Dutch mesolithic structures (long-graves) "hunebedden". It's not "hun's beds", but "beds of the giants".

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Posted (edited)

I picked up an Eastern European Phrasebook at a garage sale yesterday, thought it might be useful.

Just checking Hungarian but the intro to it gives me the exact story on the Magyars. I'll type it out...

"The roots of this Finno-Ugric tongue and it's people lie in the lands East of the Ural mountains, from where, in 2000BC, there was a major migration west. In the process the group split, some moving north to Finland and Estonia and the others, the Ugric people, moving through to Hungary. The original language was split along with the 2 groups. In the two and half millenia from departure to the conquest of Hungary in 896, when 7 Magyar tribes occupied the Danube Basin and the foundations of modern Hungary were laid, the Ugric language evolved. It picked up certain Turkish, Bulgar and Turkish words and developed into modern Hungarian, only spoken in Hungary.

Goes on to compare Finnish and the same but now the 2 are mutually incomprehensible."

Apparently with Hungarian it is not as hard as it first looks, word formation starts with a 'root' and you build on it.

J is used as Y - the word in the OLB is Juul

They have c as ts - as in hats

cs is ch

The cheese example - Frisian ts (like the c) - Dutch k - English ch - Hungarian cs

Here's an interesting one...

ly is sometimes used instead of j.

So LYda could be jda - YDA - IDA - Mt Ida.

Edited by The Puzzler

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