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Riaan

[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood

11,638 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

Otharus,

Sorry for my late response but these days I just do not have the time to participate here as much as I would like to.

I do believe that the investigations into the language aspect of the OLB is very important to determine its authenticity, i.e connections to the Rustringer or old West Frisian dialects, etc. What I do find irritating is that we seem to wander off in totally unrelated directions by, what Abe calls, "lego-linguistics" or word play. It is almost like giving someone a recipe for baking a cake. You tell them to add a teaspoon of salt and then end up discussing salt mining. Whilst the mining of salt could be very interesting, it will not influence the cake at all. (btw, this remark was not directed at you)

I find your research into the 19th century investigation of the existance of the OLB very interesting. What is the earliest confirmed date that people knew about the existance of the book? Was it in the 1940's or 1930's?

Jensma's view that this was another old book (now lost), is so lame, and in fact, pathetic that it should be rejected by anyone with a bit of sense. Yet, because he is a professor people actually believe him. Imagine that. They had an old book which they threw away and then created a totally "new" old book.

Abe wants "hard" evidence. What can be harder than facts in the OLB that was not known in the 19th century - such as the description of the 4.2ka BP event? That description was only discovered in the 20th century. Add to that my list of 20 events that occured in 4200 BC (Post # 4653). Cormac remarked that there is no reason to believe that they all happened simultaneously. Now imagine that each land had its own indepenent event: Overcast skies, no wind, earthquakes, floods, drought, famine, meteorite activities, civilization collapse, etc. So while all this happened in one country, the rest just carried on normally untill their seperate turns came? How logical is that?

Btw. Abe, I believe somebody found an old tombstone in the Netherlands with the inscription : "Tread softly for here lies Adela, 590 BC - 530 BC" (joke)

I guess you meant "1840's or 1830's" ??

--

"Hard evidence", yes, hard evidence, that everything described happened in Frya's Empire, which was ancient Europe, and that it all happened at 2194BC.

--

Yes, thanks, it took me a week to make that tombstone look authentic, lol.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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I can see a huge circle of words there.

I'll be back.

I was afraid you were going to say that, LOL !!

But Puzz, can you tell me what you are trying to prove here? I lost track again...

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Posted (edited)

Sigh... I have searched for many hours in online German records about (storm) floods at the Nordsee coast during the middle ages, but found nothing happening at 1255.

So all one of us has to do is go to Leeuwarden, and search through old chonicles/records, and hope to find something about a flood or , "überschwemmung", occurring in 1255 AD.

========

And something else: does anyone know the etymology of the name of the "Jade River", the stream that ran east of Rüstringen and flooded it many times???

I will bet it has nothing to do with the gem with the same name (just to prevent another 'etymology' outburst, lol)...

.

I should not have asked it for no one else but ME (see my subtitle) found the answer, lol:

jade (2)

"worn-out horse," late 14c., possibly from O.N. jalda "mare," from Finno-Ugric (cf. Mordvin al'd'a "mare"). As a term of abuse for a woman, it dates from 1550s.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=jade

jaded: Made dull, apathetic, tired, or cynical by experience. From Old Norse “jalda”=worn-out mare.

jaded: Worn out, tired, and weary of life. Unenthusiastic and insensitive. From Old Norse “jalda”=mare. Literally “like an old horse.”

http://etyman.wordpress.com/tweetionary/j/

-

■booze: To drink alcohol in large quantities. Middle Englsh "bouse" < Middle Dutch "busen"= to drink to excess.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:z0LiMo-NuJAJ:thewordguy.wordpress.com/page/2/+jalda+old-norse+jade+busen&cd=1&hl=nl&ct=clnk&gl=nl&source=www.google.nl

L. 156. — Bouse or booze (and always so pronounced)

perh. from Du busen, from buise — a drinking-cup. To

drink deeply. A "bousening well" was one in which

people were drenched as a cure.

http://www.archive.org/stream/cu31924013289073/cu31924013289073_djvu.txt

So... the Jadebusen is German for the Jade Bay, but I thought the German for bay was 'haff'. [EDIT: wrong, the German word for bay is 'Bucht'. Haff is the German word for lagoon]

Jadebusen: "Worn out old mare drinking to excess"... (try to picture that in your mind's eye)

:w00t:

.

Edited by Abramelin

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I think a couple of pictures would do nice here (they are not from Alewyn's book, btw), especially for those who just started reading this huge thread:

Image2.gif

Image6.gif

More here: http://www.earth-history.com/Europe/Oera/oera-linda-plates.htm

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I find your research into the 19th century investigation of the existance of the OLB very interesting. What is the earliest confirmed date that people knew about the existance of the book? Was it in the 1940's or 1930's [1840's or 1830's]?

Thanks Alewyn, and no worries, I also feel a bit frustrated sometimes when (i.m.o.) important issues are left undiscussed and whole pages are (i.m.o.) wasted on irrelevant or minor details. Then again, we're all free-willing amateurs.

First of all, I'm sure you ment 1840/1830's (corected in quote above).

Yes, there are several witness reports that indicate that in the 30's and 40's of the 19th century, the manuscript existed already and/or that the Over de Lindens believed that they stemmed from an ancient noble Frisian family.

In addition to my posts from April 11 and 19, I'll give an improvised summary and add some new information here.

(With thanks to Menno Knul who mailed me 5 scanned pages of "Het geheimzinnige handschrift van de Familie Over de Linden" by E. Molenaar, 1949. They can now be found here: http://fryskednis.blogspot.com/2011/05/het-geheimzinnige-handschrift-van-de.html)

Here is some facts (not all!) related to the question whether the OLB existed long before Cornelis Over de Linden tried to have it translated by Eelco Verwijs in 1867.

(Note: this was shortly after Cornelis' friend Ernst Stadermann's death, which could mean that the latter had tried to help him translate it before, without succes. But this is just a guess, as the events may not be related at all. For Menno Knul, this is reason to believe that Stadermann was one of the 'hoaxers'.)

1. Schoolteacher Cornelis Wijs stated in 1876 that in 1831 he had heard Jan Over de Linden (1785-1835), the father of Cornelis, boost about descending from "the oldest family in the world".

2. Two other schoolteachers made an official statement with a notary, that in 1848 they had heard Cornelis Over de Linden junior (1833-1868) boost about virtually the same (being from ancient noble Frisian descent), as well as his father (Cornelis senior) knowing this from "a book with strange letters".

3. Naval officer W.M. Visser had made a diary note on 23-12-1854 of having heard from Cornelis Over de Linden that the latter had told him about the book and that it was written "in a strange language and a strange script".

4. Beckering Vinkers wrote that Cornelis had picked up the manuscript in 1848 in Enkhuizen together with his son Cornelis (source not mentioned).

5. New information

Translated from Molenaar (1949), a quote from Jacob Munnik, who was married to a pre-marital daughter of Cornelis Over de Linden's first wife (which makes him Cornelis' step-son-in-law.)

"In 1845 (a year before my marriage), C. Over de Linden, bookbinder Stadermann and me went on a little tour together (to Enkhuizen). We visited an old skipper, where Over de Linden's mother was a housekeeper. C.O.L. spoke with his mother and the old man in private and when we had left Enkhuizen, he said: "It's a bloody shame; the old one has an old book that belongs to us and he does not want to hand it over. It proves that our family is old." He also spoke about forested areas, like royal domains with many Linden-trees etcetra. "But it is old-Frisian; that's the bloody problem!", Cornelis had said.

For a few years he has been complaining about it (from 1845-1847), but in the meantime he had started to learn the old-Frisian language."

I agree with author Molenaar that Munnik probably had confused the old skipper with Hendrik Reuvers, the husband of aunt Aafje, whom they will also have visited.

6. More new information

Again from Molenaar (1949), who writes about an article in the Friesche Courant of 30-4-1877, written by M.K. de Jong, schoolmaster in the village Kooten. He states that a trustworthy fellow villager had declared that "about 40 years ago" (ca. 1837) "his uncle Leendert Over de Linden had told him that there were some very old manuscripts kept by the Over de Linden family."

7. Relevant to know is also that Hein Kofman (1853-1933), who was said to have heard that Cornelis Over de Linden had stolen the OLB from the house of his parents, lived all his life in the house of his parents Rijkent Kofman and Cornelia Reuvers (1818-1878), which had also been the house of his grandparents Hendrik Reuvers and Aafje Over de Linden (1798-1849) as well as the house of Andries Over de Linden (1759-1820) and IJfje Schols. This means that since the death of Andries Over de Linden in 1820, the manuscript has stayed in the same house until Cornelis took it to Den Helder in 1848.

Cornelia Kofman-Reuvers would have stated that "without doubt the manuscript had been kept here [in her house] in a corner, covered with dust." She did not remember how long it had stayed there and when it had been moved to Den Helder.

8. Another aunt of Cornelis, Antje Van Doornik-Over de Linden (1795-1882), when asked in 1876, said not to have heard of the manuscript.

~ ~ ~

For now, not having much time (packing my bags), I leave the conclusions to all this to the forum, but not without adding that I totally agree with Alewyn that...:

Jensma's view that this was another old book (now lost), is so lame, and in fact, pathetic that it should be rejected by anyone with a bit of sense. Yet, because he is a professor people actually believe him. Imagine that. They had an old book which they threw away and then created a totally "new" old book.

Finally, once more about the paper research report:

If the paper would indeed have been from the 19th century and if it would indeed have been artificially colored, this should have been easy to prove with the nowaday techniques.

Therefore, my layman conclusion:

The paper was not artificially colored and does not come from a European or American factory.

Some questions:

A. Does anyone know about paper making techniques in the Byzantium or Asia?

B. Did any of the oldest Over de Linden bookshops have ways of obtaining (or making) unique paper (to make one or more copies)?

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For those who are interested in the word foddik = lamp, there is breaking news on my website: www.rodinbook.nl.

Great Menno, but please change this:

... dat over de hele wereld groepen vrouwen (maagden ?), die zich dochters van Freya noemen, hun lamp brandend houden.

Now THAT's a hoax. (It's not true.)

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For those who are interested in the word foddik = lamp, there is breaking news on my website: www.rodinbook.nl.

Sorry Menno, I was just going to check it (kept forgetting):

Jensma (2006), p.83: possible source for "foddik" is "Proeve van een Friesch en Nederlandsch woordenboek" by M. de Haan Hettema (1832).

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Something I wanted to post earlier, just for the record as some sources state the wrong date, the death certificate of Andries Over de Linden, died 25 April 1820, Enkhuizen, Oude Rietdijk.

800799887_6_C_ue.jpeg

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Sorry Menno, I was just going to check it (kept forgetting):

Jensma (2006), p.83: possible source for "foddik" is "Proeve van een Friesch en Nederlandsch woordenboek" by M. de Haan Hettema (1832).

Yeah, thanks:

Foddik.jpg

From 1832:

Proeve van een friesch en Nederlandsch woordenboek

http://books.google.nl/books?id=50QSAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA27&lpg=PA27&dq=%22Proeve+van+een+Friesch+en+Nederlandsch+woordenboek%22+foddik&source=bl&ots=Hcu2QD-tCs&sig=CiR-pN706Uq3RSQ3OH_4Ca4CSTM&hl=nl&ei=IdXLTcHJOJGk-ga3_oyuAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

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No, that's NOT what I said either. I've posted about several events that were happening in and around that general point in time. What I have said REPEATEDLY is that there is no evidence that can be pinned to the 2193/2194 BC date SPECIFICALLY like you have claimed several times. There STILL remains no evidence that corroborates that specific date, whether from the OLB or your own personal claims/misinterpretations of fact, which Swede and I both mentioned somewhere back around Page 9 or so, IIRC.

cormac

You are really one gutsy Brave as long as you can remain anonymous, aren't you. Here I specifically refer to your terms "personal claims/misinterpretations of fact".

Now for once, do you or don't you agree that all the events around the 2200 BC event happened at the same time? Please stop beating around the bush and give us a straight answer.

If you do, then we can go to the next FACT. Professor Harvey Weiss, after some 26 years of work, declared that the Akkadian Empire came to fall in 2193 BC. This just happens to be EXACTLY the same date that the Oera Linda Book used and is only 7 years away from the generally used date of 2200 BC. Next, please consult the Sumerian King List, etc. and then tell me, where did I "misrepresent" anything. If you cannot use some logic or deductive reasoning, then just keep your cheap defamatory comments to yourself.

If, on the other hand, you remain adamant that these are all separate events, then I have really nothing more to say to you. You seem to want to portray the image of an academic but you cannot even begin to display some form of deductive reasoning, lateral thinking or logic. What you have learned and, heaven forbid, taught, is just so far removed from the possibilities we are discussing here that it just seems to go right over your head. If everyone had your attitude the earth would still have been flat and at the centre of the Universe.

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Well spoken Alewyn.

BTW, when I'm back home in Westfriesland I'll go the Enkhuizer Almanak Museum (in Enkhuizen) and see if I can find out what their source was for the year of the Big Flood.

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Well said Alewyn.

Thanks for your answer on the Rustringens Abe.

I guess what I'm doing is seeing if what Otharus said before could be true.

That the Phoenician language could have come AFTER the OLB language - we deciphered DEL for that.

Generally the connections in languages are interesting me and I enjoy following them around to find out the bases of words and how they might relate the the OLB text. I think that the words of English and other languages seem to go down to a few basic sound words that other words then radiate off in different languages.

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Posted (edited)

If you do, then we can go to the next FACT. Professor Harvey Weiss, after some 26 years of work, declared that the Akkadian Empire came to fall in 2193 BC. This just happens to be EXACTLY the same date that the Oera Linda Book used and is only 7 years away from the generally used date of 2200 BC. Next, please consult the Sumerian King List, etc. and then tell me, where did I "misrepresent" anything. If you cannot use some logic or deductive reasoning, then just keep your cheap defamatory comments to yourself.

Alewyn, I just read a very detailed article about Harvey Weiss and his discovery:

Here's a quote from page 6:

[ Collapse of Earliest Known Empire Is Linked to Long, Harsh Drought ]

(...)

* 2254-2218 B.C.: Reign of Manishtushu's son Naram-Sin, thought to be the first to claim kingship as a divine right. His downfall was traditionally ascribed to divine retribution in the form of invading hordes from the east, called the Gutians. However, new research suggests complex internal problems and the beginning of a 300-year drought as the culprits. * 2217-2193: Reign of his son Shar-kali-sharri, followed by a period of anarchy. *2200 B.C.: Volcanic eruption in Anatolia, after which many Akkadian settlements are abandoned.

http://www.nytimes.com/1993/08/24/science/collapse-of-earliest-known-empire-is-linked-to-long-harsh-drought.html?pagewanted=6&src=pm

Maybe I read it wrong, but what I underlined suggests the climatic troubles started before 2193 BC. , and at least as early as 2218 BC. That's 25 years before 2193 BC.

+++++++++

BUT... now we have two volcanoes erupting at maybe the same time or within 3 years from eachother (that is the time-period the OLB talks about): Campi Flegrei & some Anatolian volcano.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Posted (edited)

Yes, how interesting on the Anatolian volcano.

What I wanted to do was see if skelda and skelde were related.

Scheldt and shield.

Scheldt as shallows and SHOALS makes them relative to shield. See end of post.

----------------------

The shield is a divider, from danger or enemies or the sea.

Dutch is dam and dyke.

A dyke is a woman who loves women, so the word is relative to a woman.

A dam is an animal mother, often a dog - the Dam.

The word dam is actually relative to shield.

The mother dam protects also.

She sheilds the young. The first thing a mother does is that action, she picks it up and curls her arms around it like a shield. These words come from very basic and ancient actions and meanings. A mother is female shield/dam.

She is Ma Dam = earth mother shield protector.

Ma in Sumerian mythology creates the primordial mound. (which is the earthy mud)

Mother shield protector is mother really, a woman, a lady, a dame.

shield then as shoal goes to sur - which really is the divider again, the barrier, protector but this time it's the TOP - the sur, the tor

So, Sir is top shield

Madam is earth mother shield

shields - childs = children..??

A mare is a mother horse. It is literally an Earth Mother.

Another aspect of Demeter, was known as the Aganippe "the Mare who destroys mercifully", a black winged horse worshiped by certain cults.

da-ma-te - Linear B - (Demeter)

(my interpretation)

Mare is also sea, but it's not really sea, it's MIRE - that is MUD/BLACK EARTH (swampy ground) - that is PEL, that is FEN.

The MUD as mire, which is mare is why Demeter is both an Earth Mother and a Horse.

SO, it gives it away that MIRE and MARE are the same.

da (dam) - ma (mare/myre) - te (top)

female shield /black earth /top,highest.

Top protector of the Earth = Earth Mother.

mada - Earth dam

midden really is an earth dam.

The Earth mercifully destroys us at her will.

Poseidon was her mate on Crete in the Linear B.

He would be the masculine of this concept.

Both were protectors of the Earth - top shields.

They had a daughter, a mare, her name is never revealed.

---------------

shield

O.E. scield, scild, related to sciell (see shell), from P.Gmc. *skeldus (cf. O.N. skjöldr, O.S. skild, M.Du. scilt, Du. schild, Ger. Schild, Goth. skildus), from base *skel- "divide, split, separate,"

shell (n.)

O.E. sciell, scill, Anglian scell "seashell, eggshell," related to O.E. scealu "shell, husk," from P.Gmc. *skaljo "divide, separate" (cf. W.Fris. skyl "peel, rind,

skel is the base for divide, seperate - shield

related to shell

shell means also divide, seperate - this relates to PEEL

skel then, should be the word for both shell and shield

shoal is also a bar, divider, seperater - sand bank.

200px-WayaWayasewa.jpg

Edited by The Puzzler

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Probably why our FAMILY crests are on SHIELDS.

On that note, I'm off to bed.

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Posted (edited)

One more for The Puzzler (sorry Abe and Alewyn, but sometimes we need a bit of fun here too)

del = ordinaire vrouw

translations

German: Schlampe, Flittchen

English: slvt, tart

French: salope, garce

Norwegian: sjuske

Spanish: puerca

http://nl.wiktionary.org/wiki/del

Edited by Otharus

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Posted (edited)

Heh, but a chain is as strong as it weakest shackle:

madam comes from Latin: mea domina

++

EDIT:

Lol, no problems with having fun at all: I 'found out' this morning that the, ahem... etymology of Jadebusen is "worn out old mare drinking to excess".

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Posted (edited)

Alewyn, I just read a very detailed article about Harvey Weiss and his discovery:

Here's a quote from page 6:

[ Collapse of Earliest Known Empire Is Linked to Long, Harsh Drought ]

(...)

* 2254-2218 B.C.: Reign of Manishtushu's son Naram-Sin, thought to be the first to claim kingship as a divine right. His downfall was traditionally ascribed to divine retribution in the form of invading hordes from the east, called the Gutians. However, new research suggests complex internal problems and the beginning of a 300-year drought as the culprits. * 2217-2193: Reign of his son Shar-kali-sharri, followed by a period of anarchy. *2200 B.C.: Volcanic eruption in Anatolia, after which many Akkadian settlements are abandoned.

http://www.nytimes.com/1993/08/24/science/collapse-of-earliest-known-empire-is-linked-to-long-harsh-drought.html?pagewanted=6&src=pm

Maybe I read it wrong, but what I underlined suggests the climatic troubles started before 2193 BC. , and at least as early as 2218 BC. That's 25 years before 2193 BC.

+++++++++

BUT... now we have two volcanoes erupting at maybe the same time or within 3 years from eachother (that is the time-period the OLB talks about): Campi Flegrei & some Anatolian volcano.

.

Abe,

Have a look at what Wikipedia has to say:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akkadian_Empire

"The Empire of Akkad collapsed in 2154 BC, within 180 years of its founding, ushering in a period of regional decline that lasted until the rise of the Sumerian Third Dynasty of Ur in 2112 BC. By the end of the reign of Naram-Sin's son, Shar-kali-sharri (2217-2193 BC), the empire had weakened. There was a period of anarchy between 2192 BC and 2168 BC. Shu-Durul (2168-2154 BC) appears to have restored some order, however he was unable to prevent the empire eventually collapsing outright from the invasion of barbarian peoples from the Zagros Mountains known as the Gutians."

As you can see, after Shar-kali-sharri's death in 2193 BC, there was a period of anarchy. This is exactly what the OLB says. After the OLB's disaster in 2193 BC there was a period of anarchy and invasions from the East and people were enslaved.

The King list indicates that a number of kings ruled after Shar-kali-sharri's death during this period of turmoil. The (weakened) Akkadian empire was finally sacked by the Gutians in 2154 BC. It would appear that Harvey Weiss used this date of Shar-kali-sharri's death to date the Akkadian disaster. Perhaps Shar-kali-sharri died in the disaster.

My point: To my knowledge, non of this was known in the 19th century. Yet, the OLB's description is just too close to be a coincidence. To me, this is hard evidence in favour of the OLB's authenticity.

Edit: Please also note Prof. Weiss' referance to volcanic dust at Tell Leilan. (His paper "Desert Storm")

The OLB also talks about volcanoes erupting in 2193 BC. Unfortunately it does not say where.

Edited by Alewyn

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Posted (edited)

Wait a minute: the OLB disaster started in 2193 BC and lasted for 3 years.

According to Harvey Weiss the disaster/climatic changes already started between 2254 and 2218 BC, but yes, then after 2193 BC there started a period of anarchy.

I did some reading, and the area affected appears to be somewhat in one line: Egypt, Sumer/Akkad, Indus:

Globe.jpg

True, this was not known in the 19th century, but what have you found about what happened all over ancient Europe at the same time?

For I understand that it's about Frya's land (Europe) that we talk about concerning these disasters.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Here is the full text of the scans, which I have produced earlier.

Bron: E. Molenaar, Het Geheimzinnige Handschrift van de Familie Over de Linden. Feiten en gegevens omtrent herkomst en voorgeschiedenis van 'Het Oera Linda Boek'. Bussum, Uitgeversmaatschappij C.A. J. van Dishoeck, 1949. De naam van uitgeverij Pasman te Utrecht is met een strookje papier overgeplakt met de naam van Uitgeverij van Dishoeck te Bussum.

p.5

Voorwoord

De feiten en gegevens omtrent de herkomst en de voorgeschiedenis van het Oera Linda Boek, die in dit geschrift in een nieuw groepsverband zijn bijeengebracht, werden ontleend aan de onderstaande publicaties:

J. Beckering Vinckers: 'Wie heeft het Oera Linda Boek geschreven ? (Kampen, 1877).

L.F. over de Linden: Beweerd, maar niet bewezen' (H. Kuipers, Leeuwarden, 1877) en Aanvulling van de Brochure 'Beweerd, maar niet bewezen' (C. de Boer Jr., Helder, 1912).

Dr. M. de Jong Hzn.: 'Het geheim van het Oera Linda Boek' (A.J. Osinga; Bolsward, 1927).

Mr. P.C.J.A. Boeles: 'De auteur van het Oera Linda Boek' ('De Vrije Fries', jaargang 1928).

Enige inlichtingen zijn nog verkregen van de Gemeente-Archivaris van Enkhuizen, wijlen de heer D. Brouwer, terwijl van de heer C. over de Linden te Amsterdam nauwkeurige afschriften werden ontvangen van alle aanwezige bescheiden (uit de periode voor en tijdens de vertaling van het handschrift van het Oera Linda Boek), behorende tot de correspondentie-verzameling van de familie Over de Linden, thans berustende bij de Provinciale Bibliotheek te Leeuwarden.

Ook werd toestemming gevraagd en verkregen, tot het opnemen (als Bijlage I) van een foto van het Wapen van de familie Over de Linden, met de zinspreuk 'Waak'.

Toegevoegd zijn bovendien Bijlage II en III bestaande uit:

de authentieke tekst van de beide eerste bladzijden van het handschrift van het Oera Linda Boek (in foto-copie), met daarnaast deze tekst in modern letterschrift, benevens de Nederlandse vertaling van Dr. J.G. Ottema.

De gehele authentieke tekst (ruim 200 blz. foto-copie) met vertaling toe te voegen moest, wegens de kosten, achterwege gelaten worden.

p.6

citaten

p.7.

Hoofdstuk I

(1)

In Augustus 1948 was het honderd jaar geleden, dat de toen 37-jarige Cornelis over de Linden, scheepstimmerman eerste klasse aan 's Rijks Marinewerf te Den Helder, met zijn oudste zoon, de 13-jarige kwekeling Cornelis een reisje maakte naar Enkhuizen om aldaar een bezoek te brengen aan zijn moeder (weduwe van Jan over de Linden) en aan zijn gehuwde tante Aafje (dochter van de in 1820 overleden Andries over de Linden). Een gewoon familie-bezoek dus, waaraan de herinnering reeds lang verloren zou zijn gegaan, ware het niet dat deze beide reizigers bij hun terugkeer uit Enkhuizen naar Den Helder in het bezit waren van een pakket geschriften van zeer buitengewone inhoud.

In dit pakket werden door Cornelis over de Linden en zijn zoon aanwezig bevonden een groot en een klein handschrift. Het eerste (waarvan het begin Latijn en het verdere -grootste - gedeeelte Oud-Hollands) werd later herkend als een zeldzaam voorkomend afschrift van 'De Kroniek van Friesland' van Worp van Thabor, terwijl het kleinere handschrift, geschreven in de oud-Friese taal met een onbekend letterschrift, later door de vertaling van Dr. J.G. Ottema bekend zou worden als 'Het Oera Linda Boek'.

Over de ouderdom, echtheid en herkomst van dit laatste handschrift is sindsdien veel geschreven en wordt nog steeds gestreden, waarbij de critiek wel vaak het hoogste woord heeft gevoerd, doch waarover het laatste beslissende woord niet is gesproken. Het Oera-Linda-boek-vraagstuk is nog altijd een onopgelost probleem.

De herdenking van de bovenvermelde, voor de familie Over de Linden zo belangrijke gebeurtenis in Augustus 1848, waaraan tot nog toe slechts wenig aandacht is geschonken, is daarom een gerede aanleiding en biedt een goede gelegenheid, thans eens meer nauwlettend na te gaan, of er ook aanwijzingen te vinden zijn of uitlatingen bekend zijn geworden, die de aanwezigheid van oude geschriften in de Enkhuizer familie Over de Linden bevestigen.

Daartoe is het wenselijk te onderzoeken:

1) Welke gegevens bekend zijn of alsnog gevonden kunnen worden, die aantonen dat bedoelde geschriften voor 1848 in Enkhuizen aanwezig waren;

2) Van welk familielid Cornelis over de Linden in 1848 het pakket oude geschriften kan hebben ontvangen;

p.8.

3) Of Cornelis over de Linden wel gerechtigd was deze oude familiepapieren in ontvangst te nemen en ze voortaan als zijn eigendom te beschouwen.

Over de Enkhuizer familie Over de Linden is een en ander bekend geworden, dat ongetwijfeld van belang is.

In de ter beschikking staande gegevens kan men niet verder teruggaan dan die, welke melding maken van Jan over de Linden (overgrootvader van Cornelis uit Den Helder). Hij heeft zich, vermoedelijk uit Friesland komende, te Enkhuizen gevestigd en schijnt uit hoofde van zijn ambt als Jan de Diender bekend gestaan te hebben; zijn geboortedatum en -jaar zijn onbekend gebleven. Zijn zoon Andries, geboren te Enkhuizen in het jaar 1759, van beroep scheepstimmermansbaas, had drie kinderen. Antje, Aaltje en Jan.

Antje heeft de ouderlijke woning verlaten, trouwde, maar bleef in Enkhuizen wonen. Toen Aafje trouwde met Hendrik Reuvers, bleef zij met haar man bij haar vader inwonen in de grote koepel met tuin aan de Rietdijk (tegenwoordig Vijzelstraat) te Enkhuizen, die aan haar vader toebehoorde. Ook hun dochter Cornelia Reuvers met haar man en hun zoon Hein Kofman hebben hun leven lang in dit huis gewoond. Laatstgenoemde is er geboren 11 Februari 1853 en er gestorven op 15 Januari 1933.

De vermelding van deze gegevens geschiedt in verband met latere verklaringen van Cornelia Reuvers (Wed. Keetje Kofman) en van haar zoon Hein Kofman betreffende oude geschriften vanm de familie Over de Linden te Enkhuizen, die in de voorvaderlijke woning aan de Rietdijk aanwezig zijn geweest en door Cornelis zijn meegenomen naar Den Helder.

De zoon van Andries, genaamd Jan en van beroep scheepstimmerman, had een luchthartige en rusteloze natuur. Hij trok van de ene plaats naar de andere al naar hij werk vond. Hij had een zoon, Cornelis, die in 1811 te Enkhuizen werd geboren. Grootvader Andries hield veel van zijn kleinzoon, daar hij de enige stamhouder was. Deze deelde naderhand mede, dat zijn grootvader, als hij daar soms logeerde en zij heel vertrouwelijk tezamen waren, hem dan steeds voorhield, dat hij nooit moest vergeten, dat hun familie van zuiver Fries bloed was en hem toezei later, als hij wat ouder geworden was, hem dat wel eens te zullen uitleggen. Dit is niet geschied. Toen Andries over de Linden (15 April 1820) op 61-jarige leeftijd, overleed, was zijn kleinzoon Cornelis nog maar een kind van 9 jaar.

Evenals grootvader Andries was ook de vader van Cornelis vol van zijn oude Friese afkomst, zoals blijkt uit een later bekend geworden mededeling van de heer C. Wijs, die als volgt luidt:

'In het jaar 1831 bevond ik mij aan boord van het korvet

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'Nehalennia' (commandant, de kapitein ter zee Rijk *) op de Schelde voor het fort Marie. Ik was op genoemden bodem schoolmeester en ziekentrooster. Daarop bevond zich ook de scheepstimmerman Jan over de Linden, die er in vroolijke buien dikwijls op pochte, dat hij van den oudsten stam ter wereld was en bij zulke gelegenheden de spot dreef met den adel. Ik ben slechts een goed half jaar op het korvet geweest en heb Jan over de Linden uit het oog verloren. Van boeken of geschriften heeft hij nooit gesproken.'

Deze Jan, geboren te Enkhuizen op 20 Juni 1787, overleed op 23 Juni 1835 aan boord van Z.M. Wachtschip 'Euridice'.

Grootvader Andries, die blijkbaar zijn zoon Jan wel in kennis heeft gesteld met de in zijn familie levende traditie aangaande haar oude Friese afkomst, maar hem nkundig liet van het bestaan van hierop betrekking hebbende oude geschriften, heeft deze laatste ook niet aan zijn zoon nagelaten, daar hij ze hem wegens zijn onverschilligheid niet toevetrouwde. Ook de oudere zuster Antje, in 1876 nog in leven, heeft van het bestaan van het erfstuk nooit kennis gedragen.

Andries over de Linden, die met de inhoud van het familieboek en met de opdracht tot geheimhouding en instandhouding door overerving aan het nageslacht en eventueel zonodig door overschrijving, blijkbaar meer op de hoogte was dan algemeen bekend geworden is, heeft de oude geschriften in het bezit van zijn inwonende dochter Aafje gesteld, met opdracht ze later aan zijn kleinzoon en stamhouder Cornelis ter hand te stellen. Aan deze opdracht heeft zij ook gevolg gegeven, echter eerst in het jaar 1848.

De oorzaak van deze late overdracht is ook bekend. De echtgenoot van Aafje, Hendrik Reuvers, heeft zich tijdens zijn leven steeds ertegen verzet, dat zijn vrouw de oude familiepapieren, overeenkomstig haars vaders wil, aan Cornelis overdroeg. In 1845 stierf Reuvers; een paar jaar later hertrouwde zij met Koops Meijlhoff, die zij van de aanwezigheid van de oude papieren onkundig liet. Zij overleed te Enkhuizen op 4 Februari 1849.

Dat het pakket oude geschriften, waarmede Cornelis over de Linden en zijn zoon in 1848 na een bezoek aan de Enkhuizer familie naar Den Helder terugkeerden, aanwezig is geweest in de voorouderlijke woning van zijn familie aldaar, wordt bevestigd door verschillende zgslieden die, of uit eigen herinnering of als resultaat van een ingesteld onderzoek, enige feiten of bijzonderheden betreffende deze familie te Enkhuizen hebben vermeld, die gepubliceerd werden.

Deze gegevens zijn de volgende:

A. Het resultaat van een onderzoek, ingesteld in 1876, door de heer Knuivers te Enkhuizen, omtrent de familie Over de Lin-

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den aldaar en het toen reeds als het Oera Linda Boek bekend geworden handschrift van Cornelis over de Linden (die inmiddels op 22 Februari 1874 overleden was).

Voor dit onderzoek wendde de heer Knuivers zich tot de nog levende afstammelingen van Andries. Oude mannelijke afstammelingen van deze laatste bestonden er niet meer in Enkhuizen, maar wel een dochter van 80 jaar (Antje) en deze had nooit iets van het handschrift vernomen. Wel had de weduwe Keetje Kofman (dochter van Hendrik Reuvers en Aafje o/d L.) er van gehoord. Deze weuwe woonde in het stamhuis van de ene tak van de O.d.Linden's en buiten twijffel' zoo luidt het bericht is hier het handschrift bewaard in een hoek, met stof bedekt. Hoelang het handschrift daar gelegen heeft, wanneer het naar Den Helder is overgebracht, dit wist niemend te vertellen, waar ik ook aanklopte en welke moeite ik overigens aanwendde'.

B. Een mededeling van de Heer Munnik (getrouwd met een voordochter van Cornelis over de Linden's eerste vrouw). Hij vertelt het volgende:

'In 1845 (een jaar voor mijn trouwen) deden C. over de Linden, de boekbinder Stadermann en ik samen een toertje (naar Enkhuizen). Wij kwamen bij een oude schipper, waar Over de Linden's moeder huishoudster was. C. o.d. L. sprak alleen met zijn moeder en den oude en zeide toen wij weer buiten Enkhuizen waren: 'Het is toch een bedonderd werk; die oude heeft een oud boek van ons en wil het niet loslaten. Daaruit blijkt dat onze familie oud is'; verder zoo vertelt M. sprak hij over boschrijke streken zoveel als een heerlijkheid, van landstreken, lindeboomen enz. 'Doch het is oud-Friesch'; daar (zoo zei C. o.d. L.) zit de bl....

Zoo heeft hij wel een paar jaar loopen brommen (van 1845-1847), doch was intusschen begonnen oud-Friesch te leeren'

(degene, bij wie o.d. Linden om het oude boek vroeg, zal niet de man zijn geweest, bij wie zijn moeder huishoudster was, maar Reuvers, de man van tante Aafje, die zij ook bezocht zullen hebben).

C. In een ingezonden stuk in de Friesche Courant van 30 April 1877 deelde de heer M.K. de Jong, hoofd der school te Kooten mede, dat, toen de kwestie van het Oera Linda Boek behandeld werd in de dorps-ontwikkelingsclub 'De Hervorming', een dorpsgenoot, wiens waarheidsliefde boven alle twijffel stond, daar verklaarde, dat zijn oom Leendert over de Linden hem ongeveer 40 jaar geleden (dus ongeveer 1837) al had veteld, dat er nog heel oude geschriften onder de familie Over de Linden berustende waren.

D. Een schrijven van de heer D. Brouwer, Gemeente-Archivaris van Enkhuizen aan schrijver dezes d.d. 26 October 1939, van de volgende inhoud:

'Naar aanleiding van Uw verzoek inzake de mogelijkheid, dat het handschrift omstreeks 1848 reeds in het bezit moet zijn

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geweest van de familie Over de Linden te Enkhuizen, moet ik U mededelen, dat daaromtrent geen authentieke stukken hier aanwezig zijn, welke zulks zouden kunnen bevestigen.

1) Een lid der familie O. d. L. hier nog woonachtig, verzekerde mij, dat het manuscript voor 1850 berustte bij een ander lid van de familie, wonende in de Vijzelstraat, Cornelis o. d. Linden, die midden 19de eeuw werkzaam was op de Marinewerf te Den Helder, is geboren te Enkhuizen en heeft van zijn tante (Aafje) het handschrift overgenomen.

2) Een oud timmerman, H. Kofman (kleinzoon van Aafje), die zijn leven lang na de weduwe Kofman-Reuvers het bedoelde huis in de Vijzelstraat heeft bewoond, vertelde mij meermalen, dat het pakket, bevattende de stukken van het Oera Linda Boek, in het huis aanwezig is geweest; zelfs wees hij de plaats aan waar het had gelegen, voor het door Cornelis o/d L. was meegenomen naar Den Helder.'

E. Eeen ingezonden stuk in de Enkhuizer Courant van 9 Januari 1934 van een oud-ingezetene van Enkhuizen, de heer Hajo Last te Bussum (aldaar overleden in 1934 op 83-jarige leeftijd), waarin hij o.a. mededeelde gewerkt te hebben met Hein Kofman (kleinzoon van Aafje) en hem eens gevraagd te hebben naar de geschriften, die bij zijn moeder (dochter van Aafje) vandaan zijn gekomen. Hein Kofman zei toen tegen hem: 'Neef Over de Linsden heeft ze gestolen van mijn moeder'.

Neen. Hein Kofman, neef Cornelis heeft ze niet gestolen van je moeder; je grootmoeder had die geschriften in bewaring gekregen van haar vader Andries over de Linden, met opdracht ze te doen toekomen aan diens kleinzoon en stamhouder Cornelis en hieraan heeft zij gevolg gegeven.

Uit alles wat hierboven vermeld is, blijkt:

1) dat het handschrift van het veelomstreden Oera Linda Boek voor 1848 aanwezig is geweest in Enkhuizen, in de voorouderlijke woning aan de Vijzelstraat;

2) dat tante Aafje in Augustus 1848, bij een bezoek van Cornelis over de Linden en zijn zoon, de oude familiepapieren aan hem, volgens opdracht van haar vader Andries, overhandigd heeft;

3) dat Cornelis over de Linden deze oude geschriften als rechtmatige erfgenaam van zijn grootvader, in bezit heeft genomen.

Note: In my opinion there is no reference to the small Oera Linda Boek at all, but to the Worp of Thabor, which was as voluminous as a Statenbijbel. The letters of Cornelis over de Linden to Eelco Verwijs show, that Over de Linden did not understand the text at all and that he got interested in it only, when Eelco Verwijs told him, that the small booklet dealt with his family history. Apparently he then was afraid, that the book would contain negative information about the family. From that moment on he required a translation, eventually in exchange to the Worp of Thabor free of charge. As soon as he heard about family matters, he refused to send the originals pages, but copied the signs ... and so on. Please read the complete correspondance (in Dutch) between Over de Linden and Verwijs on my website: www.rodinbook.nl. Besides Ernest Stadermann is mentioned in 1845 only. As an experienced bookbinder of antiquarian books and bibles he certainly knew the value of the Worp of Thabor and may have influenced Cornelis over de Linden to claim the book as part of the inheritance. The Worp disappeared later on. I just wonder, if Stadermann's son bookseller Heinz Adalbert plays a role in it.

Knul

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Wait a minute: the OLB disaster started in 2193 BC and lasted for 3 years.

According to Harvey Weiss the disaster/climatic changes already started between 2254 and 2218 BC, but yes, then after 2193 BC there started a period of anarchy.

I did some reading, and the area affected appears to be somewhat in one line: Egypt, Sumer/Akkad, Indus:True, this was not known in the 19th century, but what have you found about what happened all over ancient Europe at the same time?

For I understand that it's about Frya's land (Europe) that we talk about concerning these disasters.

.

You forgot to mention the Hong Shan culture in China, North Africa’s desertification, the shrinking and eventual disappearance of the Mega Lakes after 2200 BC, your Delfzijl megalithic tombs that was covered with mud since 2200 BC, etc. etc.

Also check this site:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6V6R-4GPW9NJ-2&_user=10&_coverDate=12%2F20%2F2005&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=gateway&_origin=gateway&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1750133241&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=ca90370b4bd5c9e7cde19004b52ba864&searchtype=a

Evidence of high-energy events in the geological record: Mid-holocene evolution of the southwestern Doñana National Park (SW Spain)

“ In the first period of the third phase ( 5200–4200 cal. years BP), estuarine infilling was probably the dominant process, with the accumulation of phyllosilicate-rich clays in the lagoon bed. This was followed by a renewed phase of instability ( 4200–4100 cal. years BP) indicated by the presence of fine storm-lain deposits and thicker, probably tsunami-induced shelly deposits.”

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Posted (edited)

You forgot to mention the Hong Shan culture in China, North Africa’s desertification, the shrinking and eventual disappearance of the Mega Lakes after 2200 BC, your Delfzijl megalithic tombs that was covered with mud since 2200 BC, etc. etc.

Also check this site:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6V6R-4GPW9NJ-2&_user=10&_coverDate=12%2F20%2F2005&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=gateway&_origin=gateway&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1750133241&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=ca90370b4bd5c9e7cde19004b52ba864&searchtype=a

Evidence of high-energy events in the geological record: Mid-holocene evolution of the southwestern Doñana National Park (SW Spain)

“ In the first period of the third phase ( 5200–4200 cal. years BP), estuarine infilling was probably the dominant process, with the accumulation of phyllosilicate-rich clays in the lagoon bed. This was followed by a renewed phase of instability ( 4200–4100 cal. years BP) indicated by the presence of fine storm-lain deposits and thicker, probably tsunami-induced shelly deposits.”

The Delfzijl megalithic tombs were covered with mud... GRADUALLY.

No signs of any catastrophic events here around 2200 BC, Alewyn.

You could make a case for 3000 BC as easy as you can create a case for 2200 BC.

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And all I want is proof all this happened in 2200 BC, in Europe. That's volcanoes erupting, lands submerging, lands rising, mountains crumbling down, mountains rising up, rivers diverting their course, wildfires all over the place.

And that place is.. EUROPE, for THAT area is what the OLB is talkinmg about.

.

==

"In the first period of the third phase ( 5200–4200 cal. years BP)".

That is a THOUSAND YEARS !! Hello?

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Posted (edited)

Now for once, do you or don't you agree that all the events around the 2200 BC event happened at the same time?

No, they didnt all happen at the same time, meaning specifically your 2193 BC date.

If you do, then we can go to the next FACT. Professor Harvey Weiss, after some 26 years of work, declared that the Akkadian Empire came to fall in 2193 BC.

Actually what he said was this:

the conclusions were based on tests of soils mainly at the sites of three Akkadian cities within a 30-mile radius, places now known as Tell Leilan, Tell Mozan and Tell Brak in present-day Syria. Evidence of similar climate change was found in adjacent regions, and the archeologist said further tests of the theory would be conducted with the resumption of field work this week.

And for years archeologists puzzled over the 300-year gap in human occupation of Tell Leilan and neighboring towns, beginning in 2200 B.C.

One of the first discoveries was a half-inch layer of volcanic ash covering the rooftops of buildings at Tell Leilan in 2200 B.C. All ash falls leave distinctive chemical signatures. An analysis by Dr. Guichard traced the likely source of this potassium-rich ash to volcanoes a few hundred miles away in present-day Turkey.

Collapse of Earliest Known Empire Is Linked to Long, Harsh Drought

So even in Professor Weiss own words in the original article he made no claim to the specific date of 2193 BC. Nor does he do so at the Tell Leilan Project website. And again, a couple of cities in Northern Mesopotamia DO NOT comprise the entirety of the Akkadian Empire.

Tell Leilan Project

Also a volcanic eruption in Anatolia is not evidenced as responsible for the end of the Old Kingdom in Egypt. Nor did the droughts that concluded the Old Kingdom happen in 2193 or even 2200 BC, but happened c.2160 BC.

Historical records show that the Old Kingdom in Egypt continued successfully

until 2160 B.C. (4160 cal yr B.P.; Kitchen, 1991) when it quite suddenly collapsed into

anarchy (Bell, 1971). It has been suggested that this was due, in large part, to catastrophic

failure of the annual Nile flood for a period of 30 years. This was apparently

followed by a second, shorter 10-year period of drought starting in 2020 B.C. (4020

cal yr B.P.).

Source: Short Contribution: Nile Flow Failure at the End of the Old Kingdom, Egypt: Strontium Isotopic and Petrologic Evidence

The Hongshan Culture ended c. 2900 BC/3000 BC, well before the 2193/2200 BC date, which Swede mentioned here months ago.

As to the desertification of North Africa:

Radiocarbon data from 150 archaeological excavations in the now hyper-arid Eastern Sahara of

Egypt, Sudan, Libya, and Chad reveal close links between climatic variations and prehistoric

occupation during the past 12,000 years. Synoptic multiple-indicator views for major time slices

demonstrate the transition from initial settlement after the sudden onset of humid conditions at

8500 B.C.E. to the exodus resulting from gradual desiccation since 5300 B.C.E. Southward shifting

of the desert margin helped trigger the emergence of pharaonic civilization along the Nile,

influenced the spread of pastoralism throughout the continent, and affects sub-Saharan Africa to

the present day.

And

The Regionalization phase (5300 to 3500 B.C.E.) is characterized by the retreat of

populations to ecological refuges such as the Gilf Kebir plateau, seasonal or episodic transhumance, and a

marked migration into the Sudanese Sahara.

So at the latest, the dates are 1300 years prior to the 2193/2200 date and therefore not relevant to this discussion.

Source: Climate-Controlled Holocene Occupation in the Sahara: Motor of Africas Evolution (www.sciencemag.org; SCIENCE VOL 313; 11 AUGUST 2006)

cormac

Edited by cormac mac airt

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Posted (edited)

The creators of the OLB got the 2194 BC date from a Frisian almanac, like Otharus and I showed you several times.

You better start admiring those writers of the almanac, lol.

Their almanacs were published decades before the OLB was published.

That is physical proof, the rest is just gossip and hearsay.

I can as easily publish some 'ancient' manuscript, and claim that it is a copy of a 5000 years old manuscript.

I have actually been thinking of creating those lost pages of the OLB... really.

And then send them to a Polish guy I know, and tell him to tell the press he found it in the ruins of a Polish monastery.

Just to see how far I could get with it.

Believe me, I know how to do it.

I have paper, centuries old, and I know how to make 'old ink'.

The more I think of it, the more I think I should give it a try.

Of course, I will wait for a couple of years to publish it (or my Polish friend). When you all forgot about it, suddenly an article in a Polish or Russian newspaper wil appear, announcing the discovery of an ancient document.

--

My problem would be if something like I announced just now would show up in a few months from now.

You can bet - everyone of you - that there are people around who think like I do, and think it was me.

And some may have been busy for 10 years, and publish their creation a few months from now. I know that you will think it was me, and I ill have a really hard time denying it.

But it's possible, people.

A forgery needs time, determination, knowledge of the language used, knowledge of popular legends for the time and people we are focussing upon, and knowledge of the way to make documents look old.

I really feel challenged...

.

Edited by Abramelin

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