[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood

[The Puzzler]

Some good connections Puzz, some I've made myself but as you know we do have slightly different positions. I would like to understand more about your view though. Any chance of maybe a timeline or something? The thing is I am yet to see the evidence of the goat cult in Western Europe at such an early time. I'd like to know what there is to shift a lot of the cults that far to the west. It is possible certainly but pre 2000 bce the action would seem to be more central Europe focussed or even further east or south.

Also if all these symbols were from the mystery schools and they were much wider spread than is commonly thought then these cults with sacred symbols could be all over the place and telling where they originate is extremely hard.

If Halbertsma and the other candidates were schooled in the occult they would have been drawing on additional sources and better able to weave a web of intrigue. It's all speculation but far from irrefutable. However, you've made an excellent case and I'd like to see a timeline of sorts. Cheers mate

Thanks Slim, I think it will make very much sense in the end. I'll get some symbology together soon.

Me and timelines don't mix, just wait for a bit and I'll attempt to try and put some framework on this, I'd like to do that anyway.

I'll just add some more connections to Pluto/Hades being God of Europeans.

The goat cult was the gate cult, of Hades, Pluto. Underworld. It may have been a Cernunnos thing.

Here's something pretty clear: At Eleusis, Plouton had his own priestess.[58] Pluto was worshipped with Persephone as a divine couple at Knidos, Ephesos, Mytilene, and Sparta as well as at Eleusis, where they were known simply as God (Theos) and Goddess (Thea)

Plouton was the riches of the underground and was part of Hades overall. Riches, a nice part and death, the black part.

The key is Hades symbol. Guardians, timekeepers (gatekeepers..)

A golden key (chrusea klês) was laid on the tongue of initiates by priests at Eleusis[89] and was a symbol of the revelation they were obligated to keep secret.[90] A key is among the attributes of other infernal deities such as Hecate, Anubis, and Persephone, and those who act as guardians or timekeepers, such as Janus and Aion.[91] Aeacus (Aiakos), one of the three mortal kings who became judges in the afterlife, is also a kleidouchos (κλειδοῦχος), "holder of the keys," and a priestly doorkeeper in the court of Pluto and Persephone

Plato says:

To Plato, the god of the underworld was "an agent in th[e] beneficent cycle of death and rebirth" meriting worship under the name of Plouton, a giver of spiritual wealth.[135] In the dialogue Cratylus, Plato has Socrates explain the etymology of Plouton, saying that Pluto gives wealth (ploutos), and his name means "giver of wealth, which comes out of the earth beneath." Because the name Hades is taken to mean "the invisible," people fear what they cannot see; although they are in error about the nature of this deity's power, Socrates says, "the office and name of the God really correspond."

He is the perfect and accomplished Sophist, and the great benefactor of the inhabitants of the other world; and even to us who are upon earth he sends from below exceeding blessings. For he has much more than he wants down there; wherefore he is called Pluto (or the rich). Note also, that he will have nothing to do with men while they are in the body, but only when the soul is liberated from the desires and evils of the body. Now there is a great deal of philosophy and reflection in that; for in their liberated state he can bind them with the desire of virtue, but while they are flustered and maddened by the body, not even father Cronos himself would suffice to keep them with him in his own far-famed chains

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pluto_(mythology)

Here's Hades and Persephone, Pluto and Ceres they seem more to be in this. Note the Rooster.

The Gauls: Julius Caesar writes in Commentarii de Bello Gallico that the Gauls considered Dis Pater to be an ancestor.

Dis pater was identified with Pluto in Rome.

Medieval mythographies, written in Latin, continue the conflation of Greek and Roman deities begun by the ancient Roman themselves. Perhaps because the name Pluto was used in both traditions, it appears widely in these Latin sources for the classical ruler of the underworld, who is also seen as the double, ally, or adjunct to the figure in Christian mythology known variously as the Devil, Satan, or Lucifer. The classical underworld deities became casually interchangeable with Satan as an embodiment of Hell.[179] In the 9th century, Abbo Cernuus, the only witness whose account of the Siege of Paris survives, called the invading Vikings the "spawn of Pluto."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pluto_(mythology)

Spawn of Pluto - the word spawn is related to fry, as in fish released from bondage - the spawning, which I actually connected once to FRYA - because it really just means the same as FREE. To spawn, release, free (from).

The Vikings, the spawn of Pluto.

Edited May 17, 2011 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

Plato says this:

Note also, that he will have nothing to do with men while they are in the body, but only when the soul is liberated from the desires and evils of the body. Now there is a great deal of philosophy and reflection in that; for in their liberated state he can bind them with the desire of virtue,

What can be seen here is this God is relative to the rebirth cults of Eleusis. The fertility cults of rebirth through death. Only our soul, the body is dead, the soul can receive it's virtue and rebirth. Like reincarnation of the soul without body.

Plato may speak of it and it's something always being discussed..

1. Concerning whether Plato believed in reincarnation modern opinions are divided.

2. The subject is very relevant to our philosophical understanding of the mind and theories of Plato, and how his works were correctly or incorrectly understood by later thinkers.

3. If a belief in reincarnation is falsely attributed to Plato, then knowing this (after 2400 years!) may help Platonism be better received or examined by Catholics, other Christians, Jews, and Muslims, who believe in resurrection.

http://www.john-uebersax.com/plato/plato4.htm

This belief system offers 'resurrection'.

In Ptolemaic Alexandria, at the site of a dream oracle, Serapis was identified with Aion Plutonius

The statue suitably depicted a figure resembling Hades or Pluto, both being kings of the Greek underworld, and was shown enthroned with the modius, a basket/grain-measure, on his head, since it was a Greek symbol for the land of the dead. He also held a sceptre in his hand indicating his rulership, with Cerberus, gatekeeper of the underworld, resting at his feet, and it also had what appeared to be a serpent at its base, fitting the Egyptian symbol of rulership, the uraeus.

Hades as Serapis. This is who the Christians in Egypt worshipped - it tells us they saw this God as a rebirth deity, which having his little weight of grain on his head, makes it seem quite clearly associated with Pluto.

The Alexandrians were syncretic, and a letter inserted in the Augustan History, ascribed to the Emperor Hadrian, refers to this indifference:

The land of Egypt, the praises of which you have been recounting to me, my dear Servianus, I have found to be wholly light-minded, unstable, and blown about by every breath of rumour. There those who worship Serapis are, in fact, Christians, and those who call themselves bishops of Christ are, in fact, devotees of Serapis. There is no chief of the Jewish synagogue, no Samaritan, no Christian presbyter, who is not an astrologer, a soothsayer, or an anointer. Even the Patriarch himself, when he comes to Egypt, is forced by some to worship Serapis, by others to worship Christ.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serapis

Edited May 17, 2011 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

Gate = Tor in Germanic.

More Tor.

Note Ancient Greek TYRris and TYRsis for tower.

Etymology 1[edit] Nountor (plural tors)

1.Alternative form of tore ("hard, difficult; strong; rich").

[edit] Etymology 2From Middle English tor, torr-, from Old English torr, tor (“a high rock, lofty hill, tower”), possibly from Celtic, compare Old Welsh *tor (“a hill”); ultimately from Latin turris (“high structure”), from Ancient Greek τύρρις (týrris), τύρσις (týrsis, “tower”), of non-Indo-European origin. Cognate with Welsh twr, Irish torr. It is not clear whether the Celtic forms were borrowed from Old English, or vice versa. See also tower.

[edit] Nountor (plural tors)

1.A craggy outcrop of rock on the summit of a hill.

2.(South-West England) A hill.  [quotations ▼]

(Can we date this quote?) Arthur Conan Doyle, The Hound of the Baskervilles The moon was low upon the right, and the jagged pinnacle of a granite tor stood up against the lower curve of its silver disc.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/tor

Weird - beetle in Dutch is tor.

Maybe the scarab beetle.

Hungarian is a meal or repast.

What about the TORah?

Polish it means track, course or path - this one can equal gate.

Old Scandinavian Thor.

Serbo-Croatian gives us corral - meaning esp. circular enclosure for animals - starting to get near the round gate, round walled enclosure, the Gate of Heaven, zodiac, round.

Uzbek gives us narrow, tight - like a strait

and of course toro is the Bull - Taurus.

Tyrians, Tyrhennians, Turan, Troy, Thera, Tyre - I believe all these TYR/TUR/TOR words will all come back to the gates of Hades, that is the Pillars of Heracles. The sea gate of Gades. Sea-Goat - Capricorn - cornucopia - treasure, wealth, full of bounty.

Tor is Gate we know that, so all TOR words should cross over to Gate in Germanic context. Polish was narrow, you can start to see where narrow form of Gate comes from, Kattegat could even come from something like this.

This guy here gives a good idea of someone who gets it...:

Dionysus, the god of fertility, and Hades, the god of death/underworld, became combined in the figure of Pluto ("wealth," in Greek, “ploutos”). Pluto is a god of fertility and wealth, which rises from underground (think of seeds sprouting from the ground into mature trees) into fruition. In other words, all wealth has a beginning point, just as all trees start as seeds beneath the earth - the key to wealth is to understand its beginning - hence, a god of the underworld is key to understanding the creation of wealth.

Additionally, for anything new to be created, something old has to die - this is also the meaning of the Crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth. So a god of death is key - death must precede new growth, that is, to fertilize or create the new (abundance or wealth, nicely symbolized as a cornucopia), something has to die (such as thoughts of despair, the idea that one cannot become wealthy, low self-esteem, hidden prejudices against making money, etc). Cool stuff, and very real! Pluto’s principal attribute is the cornucopia and, in artifacts, Hades sometimes takes over Pluto’s horn of plenty (the cornucopia). Heraclitus, an early Greek philosopher and scholar, said Pluto and Hades were actually the same god.

So the horn of plenty, or cornucopia, indicates that Hades, too, is associated with the fertility of the earth.

Source(s):

Years of reading mythology.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071006153044AAAoPUt

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/tor

[Abramelin]

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Edited May 17, 2011 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

Katwijk >> Katvik >> Katuik >> Kadik >> KADIK?? (I am not at all sure, but I remember having read somewhere that 'Kaddik/Kattik' is how the inhabitants of Katwijk pronounced the name of their village).

Btw, the generally accepted etymology of "Katwijk" is based on the idea that this village (near Leiden in the Netherlands) was settled by the tribe of the Chatti/Catti or "Katten" (that's what they were called in Dutch; 'wijk' would be like the Norse 'vik, or district. Think Vikings).

Now this: I have posted in this thread and the Doggerland thread that "HELL" was an ancient Frisian name for the North Sea (and long before the name was adopted by Christians). I can only hope you remember what I posted about that (and I know you were very interested; or else Google "Hellweg"/"Helweg").

So... maybe we have a "Gades" or your Hades or the OLB "Kadik" (suggested by the OLB to be nothing but the Phoenician Gadir/Cadiz) lying at the south coast of "Hell".

+++++++++++

EDIT:

Puzz, I don't know how to say this without sounding negative, but you must try to focus, or try to narrow down to some goal or direction.

When I read your posts, I always have the feeling you want to go from A to B by way of W > X > C > D > V > T > H > G > U > K > O > Z > L > M, and so on, and then spending lots of time in these intermediate stations.

You may say that "it is 'just your problem, Abe", but maybe I am the only one willing to say it in your 'face'.

.

.

Edited May 17, 2011 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

Katwijk = Kattik = KADIK??

Now look at the subtitle of the next picture of Katwijk Beach:

Katwijk, Zuidwester storm windkracht 11/12

Kattik at the beach

Or check this link (you won't have to be able to read Dutch):

http://books.google.nl/books?id=iztrDG1-Se8C&pg=PA23&lpg=PA23&dq=katwijk+kattik+dialect&source=bl&ots=kNDYjc69Ab&sig=kNImMq2XEg9XHZICCZrADMik-1A&hl=nl&ei=dAfTTebEJ8ue-QbJ37zTCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=katwijk%20kattik%20dialect&f=false

Edited May 17, 2011 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

Katwijk = Kattik = KADIK??

Now look at the subtitle of the next picture of Katwijk Beach:

Katwijk, Zuidwester storm windkracht 11/12

Kattik at the beach

Or check this link (you won't have to be able to read Dutch):

http://books.google.nl/books?id=iztrDG1-Se8C&pg=PA23&lpg=PA23&dq=katwijk+kattik+dialect&source=bl&ots=kNDYjc69Ab&sig=kNImMq2XEg9XHZICCZrADMik-1A&hl=nl&ei=dAfTTebEJ8ue-QbJ37zTCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=katwijk%20kattik%20dialect&f=false

+++++++++++++

EDIT:

Now, if this Katwijk is indeed the OLB Kadik, and if it is indeed the place the OLB used to suggest "Cadiz", then it should also be near the entrance of "a" Middelsea/Mediterranean.

The OLB 'suggests' (sorry, I mean another English word, but I seem unable to come up with it. "Hints", maybe??) that sailors could enter this 'Middelsea" after passing Kadik ("Cadiz"??).

If I am right, there should have been a connection (river or channel or sound) between Katwijk and the Frisian Middel Sea ("Middelzee").

Katwijk doesn't seem to be the most likely place to enter the Frisian Middelsea.

But just now I read something on Menno Knul's site:

Dutch:

"De toenaam Oera Linda, Ovira Linda moet waarschijnlijk letterlijk worden genomen. De Linde is de aloude grensrivier tussen Friesland en het Oversticht (Overijssel), die voor de aanleg van de Noordoostpolder bij Kuinre in de Middelzee (Zuiderzee) uitmondde. Niet alleen het ontstaan van de Linde is door verhalen en legenden omgeven, maar ook het roversnest, zoals het mottekasteel bij Kuinre werd genoemd. De stille rivier de Linde bevat de nodige ingredienten voor een mythisch verleden, passend bij het Oera Linda Boek."

http://rodinbook.nl/vanhimmelumtothimalaya.html

In English:

The nickname Oera Linda, Ovira Linda, should probably be taken literally. The Linde is the old boundary river between Friesland and the Oversticht (the modern province of Overijssel), which before the construction of the Noordoostpolder (the name of an area of reclaimed land in the IJsselmeer) ended up near Kuinre in the Middle Sea (Zuiderzee) . Not only the genesis of the Linde is surrounded by stories and legends, but also the den of thieves, as the motte castle at Kuinre was called. The quiet river Linde contains the necessary ingredients for a mythical past to match the Oera Linda Book.

That means that according to Menno Knul the Dutch Zuiderzee (the former "Almere", and before that "Flevo Lake" during Roman times) was called Middel Sea some time or another.

I know of only two 'Middel Seas', and those are the Frisian one (in the present province of Friesland, a reclaimed area), and the one we nowadays call Mediterranean.

But if Katwijk/Kattik is indeed the OLB KADIK (hinting at "Cadiz"), then the Zuiderzee being called Middelsea long ago seems to be more likely.

Katwijk is inbetween the "Wralda's Sea" of the OLB (Hell, Mare Frisia, or North Sea) and Knul's Middel Sea (the old Zuiderzee).

Mister Knul, could you please show us the source(s) that you base this on??

.

Edited May 18, 2011 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

To make my piont a bit more clear (and I like pics, lol):

(I hope you all can read the names I added in red)

So here we have: a Kadik/Katwijk/Cadiz?? on the south coast of Wralda's Sea/Hell/Mare Frisia/North Sea,

and (maybe) also a Middelsea/Mediterranean/Zuiderzee.

And now it get's really funny...

You will see the name of the "Cananefates" (Roman spelling). That was a tribe living on the coast of the Netherlands during Roman times, and has been translated as "leek master" (whatever the hell that may have been; maybe they used red onions to die their clothings, like the Phoenicians did using some snail/molusk species? LOL).

I once jokingly suggested that they were nobody else but Canaanites who later migrated to Canaan, and became the Phoenicians.

Cadiz was a city settled by the Phoenicians/Canaanites:

A reminder:

In terms of archaeology, language, and religion, there is little to set the Phoenicians apart as markedly different from other cultures of Canaan. As Canaanites, they were unique in their remarkable seafaring achievements. In the Amarna tablets of the 14th century BC, they call themselves Kenaani or Kinaani (Canaanites), although these letters predate the invasion of the Sea Peoples by over a century. Much later, in the 6th century BC, Hecataeus of Miletus writes that Phoenicia was formerly called χνα, a name Philo of Byblos later adopted into his mythology as his eponym for the Phoenicians: "Khna who was afterwards called Phoinix".[citation needed] Egyptian seafaring expeditions had already been made to Byblos to bring back "cedars of Lebanon" as early as the third millennium BC.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenicia

Please don't go tell me this is ridiculous, for it's my idea that the 19th century writers of the OLB had lots of fun creating an alternative (= better) history of the Frisians, using local topography, toponyms, legends, Christian religion, and all spiced up with distorted Roman and Greek myths.

OK, in short: a Canaanite (Phoenician) city, Cadiz, located near the entrance to the Mediterranean and at the coast of the Atlantic;

and a 'Cananefate' city, Kadik, located near the entrance to the Middelzee, and at the coast of Wralda's Sea.

Now the only "problem" is, of course: is Knul right when he claimed the Zuiderzee was the Middle Sea.

And.. was there ever some channel between Katwijk and the Zuiderzee (if not, no big deal: the sailors could have sailed up the Rhine and then to the north, up the Vecht, it's northern branch reaching to the Zuiderzee)

.

Edited May 18, 2011 by Abramelin

[The Puzzler]

Katwijk >> Katvik >> Katuik >> Kadik >> KADIK?? (I am not at all sure, but I remember having read somewhere that 'Kaddik/Kattik' is how the inhabitants of Katwijk pronounced the name of their village).

Btw, the generally accepted etymology of "Katwijk" is based on the idea that this village (near Leiden in the Netherlands) was settled by the tribe of the Chatti/Catti or "Katten" (that's what they were called in Dutch; 'wijk' would be like the Norse 'vik, or district. Think Vikings).

Now this: I have posted in this thread and the Doggerland thread that "HELL" was an ancient Frisian name for the North Sea (and long before the name was adopted by Christians). I can only hope you remember what I posted about that (and I know you were very interested; or else Google "Hellweg"/"Helweg").

So... maybe we have a "Gades" or your Hades or the OLB "Kadik" (suggested by the OLB to be nothing but the Phoenician Gadir/Cadiz) lying at the south coast of "Hell".

+++++++++++

EDIT:

Puzz, I don't know how to say this without sounding negative, but you must try to focus, or try to narrow down to some goal or direction.

When I read your posts, I always have the feeling you want to go from A to B by way of W > X > C > D > V > T > H > G > U > K > O > Z > L > M, and so on, and then spending lots of time in these intermediate stations.

You may say that "it is 'just your problem, Abe", but maybe I am the only one willing to say it in your 'face'.

.

.

That's OK, I'm a big girl, I can take it.

I do have a problem with staying on a direction, I've asked you before to help me with direction...I get lost easy...lol

You know, too, because I'm trying to work out the WHOLE tree, rather than a branch, it tends to include more of the whole tree than just the branch.

I do hear you, it's just my way - I just go along and follow the leads and links. I'll try to maybe condense them some more and keep to the point.

To discover if this book is true imo we have to find out what was around that we may attribute to them, that may have been distorted, as the OLB said, and come back around - so really, I'm trying to verify the OLB in my long-winded way.

Bit rushed now, will certainly evaluate your posts on Kadik, because I also think that Gades may not have been the original place and their could have been many 'walled strongholds' prior to it.

After I went to bed, I thought about a round TYRE on a wheel - we say TYRE, Yanks call them TIRES, maybe you say TIRES (if you were to spell it in English..?) while Otharus SHOULD say TYRES, like FRYA, not Fria.

Edited May 18, 2011 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

+++++++++++++

EDIT:

Now, if this Katwijk is indeed the OLB Kadik, and if it is indeed the place the OLB used to suggest "Cadiz", then it should also be near the entrance of "a" Middelsea/Mediterranean.

The OLB 'suggests' (sorry, I mean another English word, but I seem unable to come up with it. "Hints", maybe??) that sailors could enter this 'Middelsea" after passing Kadik ("Cadiz"??).

If I am right, there should have been a connection (river or channel or sound) between Katwijk and the Frisian Middel Sea ("Middelzee").

Katwijk doesn't seem to be the most likely place to enter the Frisian Middelsea.

But just now I read something on Menno Knul's site:

Dutch:

"De toenaam Oera Linda, Ovira Linda moet waarschijnlijk letterlijk worden genomen. De Linde is de aloude grensrivier tussen Friesland en het Oversticht (Overijssel), die voor de aanleg van de Noordoostpolder bij Kuinre in de Middelzee (Zuiderzee) uitmondde. Niet alleen het ontstaan van de Linde is door verhalen en legenden omgeven, maar ook het roversnest, zoals het mottekasteel bij Kuinre werd genoemd. De stille rivier de Linde bevat de nodige ingredienten voor een mythisch verleden, passend bij het Oera Linda Boek."

http://rodinbook.nl/vanhimmelumtothimalaya.html

In English:

The nickname Oera Linda, Ovira Linda, should probably be taken literally. The Linde is the old boundary river between Friesland and the Oversticht (the modern province of Overijssel), which before the construction of the Noordoostpolder (the name of an area of reclaimed land in the IJsselmeer) ended up near Kuinre in the Middle Sea (Zuiderzee) . Not only the genesis of the Linde is surrounded by stories and legends, but also the den of thieves, as the motte castle at Kuinre was called. The quiet river Linde contains the necessary ingredients for a mythical past to match the Oera Linda Book.

That means that according to Menno Knul the Dutch Zuiderzee (the former "Almere", and before that "Flevo Lake" during Roman times) was called Middel Sea some time or another.

I know of only two 'Middel Seas', and those are the Frisian one (in the present province of Friesland, a reclaimed area), and the one we nowadays call Mediterranean.

But if Katwijk/Kattik is indeed the OLB KADIK (hinting at "Cadiz"), then the Zuiderzee being called Middelsea long ago seems to be more likely.

Katwijk is inbetween the "Wralda's Sea" of the OLB (Hell, Mare Frisia, or North Sea) and Knul's Middel Sea (the old Zuiderzee).

Mister Knul, could you please show us the source(s) that you base this on??

.

I actually take what you say very seriously and think alot about it because I am not exactly yet convinced this book is true, even though I 'know' in my heart it should be...

I think you have always made good points in this area. I am still looking at your posts but just wanted to also bring in the Kattegat because it had been on my mind and didn't want to forget it and may have a connection to Cadiz plus it might be relevant to your posts.

The Katten may have been named after Kat for all we know, maybe they were simply people of Kat, or of the Kattegat.

What I see is tendency in Dutch, maybe the Frisians did it too, to name places after your own..

SO, even if you have originals there imo it does not exclude the idea that the other places in the proper Med. have been named after your own places, even in ancient times.

I think it's an intriguing idea what you say too - it sounds worldwide but isn't..

I also get that feeling with many of the Greek myths - that they are in Greece but really set somewhere else - such as Helle going over the Hellespont, to me that just smacks of the Helle Peninsula right at the mouth of the Vistula in the Baltic, as do all the descriptions of grey clouds and thunder, like, I can imagine Zeus was much noisier up there than the storms that may have come over the Med.

But of course, my idea is back to front in time of yours.

How about the Kattegat because straight away I reckon it is something to do with Kadik or Gades, Gates at least at any rate - you had words that led to Kat from kadik - Katwijk - so that says KAD can be KAT - wijk...(dijk, dike - the sea gate) dunno but what I'm seeing in Kattegat is clearly GATE. Kat's Gate. Kat was her name in this version of the naming not because of small like a cat can fit thru. Can you rejog me what the hêten is please?

OLB: Afternêi haevon hja tha strêt Kâtsgat hêten.

At Kat's Gate some terrible deaths happened, from a storm and a war, this war was also the one where Wodin would have become a God just after as he was taken by the Magyar. Kat threw herself in the water and total destruction of the Danish crews.

Don't forget also that strait was a word for TOR in Uzbek (wherever that is...?) TOR is GATE in German - so strait really could also mean gate, right..

What glory it would be for you if you could drive back the savages! Our trumpets would resound with your praises, and the fame of your deeds would precede you everywhere. Wodin was strong, fierce, and warlike, but he was not clear-sighted, therefore he was taken in their toils, and crowned by the Magy.

Very many of the sailors and soldiers to whom this proceeding was displeasing went away secretly, taking Kat with them. But Kat, who did not wish to appear before either the mother or the general assembly, jumped overboard. Then a storm arose and drove the ships upon the banks of Denmark, with the total destruction of their crews. This strait was afterwards called the Kattegat. When Wodin was crowned, he attacked the savages, who were all horsemen, and fell upon Wodins troops like a hailstorm; but like a whirlwind they were turned back, and did not dare to appear again. When Wodin returned, Magy gave him his daughter to wife.

It almost seems an event that would be remembered, maybe elaborated on as a story of the illustrious Wodin, now a God.

Edited May 18, 2011 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

This could be true story and you know, only set in the area of Northern Europe and these stories, such as the one the Magyar would make: "Our trumpets would resound with your praises, and the fame of your deeds would precede you everywhere."

This really sounds like a story that became a myth, I'm not sure which one but it will probably stick out at me, when I see it.

This would be a story carried by the people over time so wherever they went this story would still be theirs...

If they arrived in Greece, that is, the Wodin people, that myth should be in Greece as part of the history of the Greeks, or whichever part of them has it, maybe the Danaans.

So, the Greek myth would really be a story of something that happened in the North, not in Greece but is essentially a history story of the same people, just not set in the area they are in now.

This is how I see alot of myths. Having been somewhere else and bought in with the people as their history and placed into the new area. That's why I'm also not convinced Troy is where they say.

The OLB may be no different and indeed the story being told may be localised, going into the Middle Sea (in Holland or Frisia) but as the people moved out and spread, the local stories with local areas spreads and becomes in the areas they go to.

That's why 'the Celts of the West' know the Phaethon story best. It might not have hit there but the Celts know it as part of an older history, they might not have even been known as Celts when the event occurred or been in the areas they were. It's very deceiving.

If this was the case with the OLB book though it just seems too full of other place references that just cannot work in the North Europe area, it's pretty clear they are talking about the Punjab etc so you'd have to go on that, even if some earlier things were local. A good example is Iberia and Iberia - it's not unlikely imo that some stories from either one are really set in the other one.

What about sailing into Tyre and mentioning Sidon priests...? How can you reconcile the WHOLE story to be local is what I struggle with on that point.

[The Puzzler]

Here's a little thing I found when I went looking for it...looking for the Sanskrit word for gate, because I had Sanskrit for KA as water so to make it work, I really need the Sanskrit word for gate, hello...it's gate.

Aries 22: The gate to the garden of desire

Is it mere coincidence that the english word 'gate' and the Sanskrit word 'gate', meaning gone or beyond are spelled the same way?

The metaphor carried in Aries 22 suggests that a garden, symbol of lush fertile bounty, is available to enter... if you so desire. The gate, however, is the key

http://sabiansymbol.typepad.com/blain_bovee_sabian_symbol/2011/04/aries-22-the-gate-to-the-garden-of-desire.html

-----------

Garden - garten, looking very gate-like to me - a gated or fenced area for children to play - kindergarten.

Here I can really see the word, in a mantra..

GYA-TEI GYA-TEI HA-RA-GYA-TEI HA-RA-SO3-GYA-TEI BO-JI3 SO-WA-KA Gate gate paragate parasamgate bodhi svaha!15

GYA-TEI

http://www.andrew-may.com/zendynamics/heart.htm

Edited May 18, 2011 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

OK, in short: a Canaanite (Phoenician) city, Cadiz, located near the entrance to the Mediterranean and at the coast of the Atlantic;

and a 'Cananefate' city, Kadik, located near the entrance to the Middelzee, and at the coast of Wralda's Sea.

Now the only "problem" is, of course: is Knul right when he claimed the Zuiderzee was the Middle Sea.

And.. was there ever some channel between Katwijk and the Zuiderzee (if not, no big deal: the sailors could have sailed up the Rhine and then to the north, up the Vecht, it's northern branch reaching to the Zuiderzee)

.

Yep, I'd like see that reference from Knul too cause as far as I know, it was the Southern Sea and named by Frisians as such.

The Zuiderzee (English pronunciation: /ˌzaɪdər ˈzeɪ/; Dutch: Zuiderzee, Dutch: [ˈzœydərzeː]; old spelling Zuyderzee) was a shallow bay of the North Sea in the northwest of the Netherlands, extending about 100 km (60 miles) inland and at most 50 km (30 miles) wide, with an overall depth of about 4 to 5 metres (13-16 feet) and a coastline of about 300 km (200 miles). It covered 5,000 km² (2,000 square miles). Its name means "southern sea" in Dutch, indicating that the origin of the name can be found in Friesland to the north of the Zuiderzee (also see North Sea).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zuiderzee

The only thing is, if the former Friesland went beyond it down to say, the Rhine mouth, it may have been the Middle Sea then, but when they got pushed up the top, it was the Southern sea because it was south of them...?

An interesting thing is the Hebrews call the Mediterranean Sea - the Middle Sea.

[The Puzzler]

CADMUS:

Cad might be cat, what is MUS?

Mouse?

He was cat and mouse? Strange but it seems something is in that. But get this, it was also a term for the female genitalia. a mouse, muss but it seems the other word is one used for that area frequently these days, sounds like mus(sy).

lol

So, a little mouse could actually be a little miss imo, it's a common phrase we call little girls, little missy or little miss, that would mean little mouse or little GIRL I can see the meaning now clear as mud.

Miss and Mrs imo come from this term.

Meek as a little mouse and don't forget, the meek will inherit the Earth!

Norwegian From Old Norse mús.

[edit] Nounmus c. (definite singular musa/musen; indefinite plural mus; definite plural musene)

1.mouse

2.(slang) the female genitalia.

[edit] Derived termssp***mus c.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[edit] Old English[edit] EtymologyFrom Proto-Germanic *mūs, from Proto-Indo-European *mūs.

Germanic cognates: Old Frisian mūs, Old Saxon mūs (Dutch muis), Old High German mūs (German Maus), Old Norse mús (Swedish mus)

Indo-European cognates: Greek μῦς, Latin mūs, Old Armenian մուկն (mukn), Old Church Slavonic мъшь (Russian мышь), Albanian mī

[edit] PronunciationIPA: /muːs/

[edit] Nounmūs f.

1.a mouse

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mus

I really don't want to be vulgar but I note the Armenian word and I've seen that (first 3 letters) matched with hole, possibly then gate in a slang word for the mus(sy). A mousehole.

Edited May 18, 2011 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

To rebirth you needed another birthing gate, circle, hole.

Stonehenge may even be a rebirthing centre.

I have seen an article once, I never forget it...

Some researchers have claimed the stone circles were used as a giant computer; others that Stonehenge was an observatory for studying stars and predicting the seasons; and a few have even argued that its rings acted as a docking pad for alien spaceships.

Now a University of British Columbia researcher who has investigated the great prehistoric monument for several years has announced he has uncovered its true meaning: it is a giant fertility symbol, constructed in the shape of the female sexual organ.

'There was a concept in Neolithic times of a great goddess or Earth Mother,' says Anthony Perks, a gynaecologist who decided to investigate the idea that the circles could have symbolic anatomical links. 'Stonehenge could represent the opening by which the Earth Mother gave birth to the plants and animals on which ancient people so depended.'

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2003/jul/06/research.arts

Maybe rebirthing took place at these places, what a perfect symbol to do that imo, another birthing gate or hole, gap, strait, tor..

[The Puzzler]

The labyrinth imo is a birthing channel, it's the path to rebirth, we go in, we get rejuventated, reborn, we come out.

The labyrinths are also underground, maybe this cult did this practice underground as well, walking through these chambers to the centre, then rebirth, then back out - now if Theseus killed the Minotaur he could represent the rock, Theseus really killed off an old rebirthing cult God of Hades then, again imo.

This may be Poseidon in this context of a bull God and his name is on Crete.

The Earth God, earthquakes, that was also Hades realm really, the Earth actually opened, when he took Persephone if you read it all, I always suspected it meant, an earthquake hit when Hades took Persephone, I'll find it.

----------

OK, Me and the Mrs.

Me and my mussus (mice). Maybe because it meant more, larger amount it just meant a larger form of the singular, mouse, mus.

My Scottish friend calls hers a Mini, I'd never heard anyone call it that but I can see why now - then mini skirts etc. Mini is nothing else but a form of the little mouse.

The Muses. Nothing else but a larger group of mouses, muses.

Didn't I read once that Stonehenge was referred to as Apollo's Temple, yes.

So, I can see it starting to come together now, Apollo, Troy, labyrinths, rebirth, Hades, the mouse. The meek ones. Funny, school teachers are often described as mousy, I help out at the Prep (5 yr olds) and all morning I got called "Miss, Miss, Miss! Mistress, the School, the teachers, the mouses, the muses. eek eek

The Muses were bringers of culture and civilised ways, especially arts and science.

Herodotus' works are named after the 9 Muses.

The Muses (Ancient Greek αἱ μοῦσαι, hai moũsai:[1] perhaps from the o-grade of the Proto-Indo-European root *men- "think"[2])

Yeah, right - lol

[The_Spartan]

Here's a little thing I found when I went looking for it...looking for the Sanskrit word for gate, because I had Sanskrit for KA as water so to make it work, I really need the Sanskrit word for gate, hello...it's gate.

Well....NO!

The Sanskrit word for GATE is mainly द्वारम् , which is pronounced dvaaram, which is also the main word for "Door" in Sanskrit.

Check the this link for a English -Sanskrit Dictionary page for the word "Gate"

and

here for the link a English -Sanskrit Dictionary page for the word "Door"

and

Only, one of the meanings of the Word "Entrance" in Sanskrit is little bit similar sounding to "Gate" which is Ghaata

But the word Ghaata is predominantly used to denote natural passages like between mountains..etc.

Water, in Sanskrit is predominantly denoted by the word जलम् which is pronounced as jalam. I

Again, Puzzler,....Word Play Doesnt Hold.

Edit to Add : I am from India. During my school days we had Sanskrit to Study.

Edited May 18, 2011 by The Spartan

[The Puzzler]

Well....NO!

The Sanskrit word for GATE is mainly द्वारम् , which is pronounced dvaaram, which is also the main word for "Door" in Sanskrit.

Check the this link for a English -Sanskrit Dictionary page for the word "Gate"

and

here for the link a English -Sanskrit Dictionary page for the word "Door"

and

Only, one of the meanings of the Word "Entrance" in Sanskrit is little bit similar sounding to "Gate" which is Ghaata

But the word Ghaata is predominantly used to denote natural passages like between mountains..etc.

Water, in Sanskrit is predominantly denoted by the word जलम् which is pronounced as jalam. I

Again, Puzzler,....Word Play Doesnt Hold.

Edit to Add : I am from India. During my school days we had Sanskrit to Study.

That's cool but it clearly says here the word is

GYA-TEI GYA-TEI HA-RA-GYA-TEI HA-RA-SO3-GYA-TEI BO-JI3 SO-WA-KA = Gate gate paragate parasamgate bodhi svaha!15

It says GYA-TEI

I'm not playing.

Door, lol - Abe, do you hear this?

Door - DEL/Daleth = Gate

Mate, thanks for that.

[The_Spartan]

That's cool but it clearly says here the word is

GYA-TEI GYA-TEI HA-RA-GYA-TEI HA-RA-SO3-GYA-TEI BO-JI3 SO-WA-KA = Gate gate paragate parasamgate bodhi svaha!15

It says GYA-TEI

I'm not playing.

Door, lol - Abe, do you hear this?

Door - DEL/Daleth = Gate

Mate, thanks for that.

could you please provide me the link for that particular Shloka?

found it in the link....

ROFL ROFL...umpteen times

Taht "GATE" is not the Opening "GATE"

That is for Ga-aatey which is wrongly translated if presume the translator to mean ""Go, go, go beyond, go far beyond - awaken - Hail!" by that shloka.

It is pronounced Ja-aatey...meaning .. Go/ Going.

Ga-aatey - means Sing/Singing.

In

Edited May 18, 2011 by The Spartan

[The Puzzler]

Knock, knock, knockin' on Heaven's Door hey hey hey hey hey

[The Puzzler]

could you please provide me the link for that particular Shloka?

found it in the link....

ROFL ROFL...umpteen times

Taht "GATE" is not the Opening "GATE"

That is for Ga-aatey which means singing

In

It's Ghaata - what you said - entrance, door = GATE

Gate Gate

April 18th, 2009 1

A Buddhist song by Canadian composer and choral director Brian Tate.

Brian Tate describes the meaning of “Gate”:

The Sanskrit text of Gate Gate which appears at the end of the Prajnaparamita Heart Sutra is regarded as the essence of Buddhist teaching. Gate means gone. Gone from suffering to the liberation of suffering. Gone from forgetfulness to mindfulness. Gone from duality to non-duality. “Gate Gate” means gone, gone . “Paragate” means gone all the way to the other shore.

http://www.gitameit.com/tag/sanskrit/

Gone, through the door, gone through the gate.

Keep laughing.

[The_Spartan]

It's Ghaata - what you said - entrance, door = GATE

Gate Gate

April 18th, 2009 1

A Buddhist song by Canadian composer and choral director Brian Tate.

Brian Tate describes the meaning of “Gate”:

The Sanskrit text of Gate Gate which appears at the end of the Prajnaparamita Heart Sutra is regarded as the essence of Buddhist teaching. Gate means gone. Gone from suffering to the liberation of suffering. Gone from forgetfulness to mindfulness. Gone from duality to non-duality. “Gate Gate” means gone, gone . “Paragate” means gone all the way to the other shore.

http://www.gitameit.com/tag/sanskrit/

Gone, through the door, gone through the gate.

Keep laughing.

Dont buy that.

Paragate..is not pronounced "Paara - Gayte". Its pronounced "Para -Gatheyy" meaning the far away shores... not the other shores!

The "Gate" implied in the quote is pronounced " Ja-aate" or "Ja-aatey" which essentially means go or going or gone ...

No...going doesnt imply that it has to go through the gate itself.

[SlimJim22]

I like the significance you have attributed to Gate. It is important and I recall the 12 Gates of Eden which are probablly the zodiac. I'm also thinking how closely Eden and Aten may be related if you think of the Garden as the night sky.

I really wanted to focus on Hades/Pluto, which was very interesting and Persephone. I have long since suspected that the myth of Persephones abduction was a retelling of the myth of Nergal abducting Ereshkigal.

Ereshkigal's significance

Ishtar's Descent, dating back to ancient Sumerian times, is believed to symbolize the changing of the seasons. It is also intended to illustrate certain doctrines or rituals developed in the temple-schools of Mesopotamia regarding the fertile life of this world and the deathly realm of the Underworld.

The story of Ereshkigal and Nergal is thought to be a later legend told in the context of a more warlike and male-dominated Babylonian culture. This being a relatively late myth, historians of religion see it as part of the general trend in Mesopotamian religion, in which originally supreme or co-equal goddesses came to be replaced or dominated by their male counterparts.

Ereshkigal, the Underworld, and her demonic minions seem to have been the origin of Greek traditions such as Hades and the demonic powers, as well as such legends as the story of the Persephone. The Hebrew concept of Sheol is closely related to the Mesopotamian concept of the Underworld, but the monotheistic tradition did not allow for a goddess such as Ereshkigal. Nevertheless, she may be related to the Hebrew tradition of Lilith.

More recently, the theme of the descent of Ishtar into Ereshkigal's realm has been interpreted as symbolic of any woman's journey into the realm of the deep unconscious and to bring an awareness of its mysteries into the realm of the here and now.

http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Ereshkigal

I can see this as being a North Mesopatamian influence coming from the Caucasus or even Central Asian and the Steppes. I do think of it as a Kurgan influence.

I also suspect that the goddess could have split into separate deities with Persephone on the one hand and Eris on the other.

Comparing Gadiz and Hades is worth doing but I'm not sure it is enough to put them together. They may both be related to 'Gates'. Interesting you mention Stonehenge though cos I see the OLB referencing the Golan Priests, and I assume the Golan Heights, as one of the strongest pieces of evidence for authenticity. Gilgal Refaim was not discovered until the 20th century after all. The pHoenicins got around and could have spread there seed no end but they may also be a model for how other ancient cultures also operated Urartu and Mitanni are likely to have got around a bit. Then there is the Aten > Athena possibility not to mention the various Greek mysteries that appear to derive from Egypt in the main.

In this book Gadir is said to come from Hu-Gadir, Phoenician for 'the stockade'. When put like that it is reminiscent of Hu-Gadarn of Celtic myth. Meaning Hu the Mighty, there is a fair bit of controversey because of Iolo Morganwwg not to mnetion what people say about the British-Israel connection.

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=eDSFkAghU34C&pg=PA261&lpg=PA261&dq=etymology+of+gades%2Bcadiz&source=bl&ots=Vs-yZHvoqu&sig=sm32ocjVvDf4_wNJSShbzOTfjN0&hl=en&ei=XJLTTbCjMs2x8QO4q7jhCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q&f=false

When put like that it is reminiscent of Hu-Gadarn of Celtic myth. Meaning Hu the Mighty, there is a fair bit of controversey because of Iolo Morganwwg not to mnetion what people say about the British-Israel connection. Just trying to give an alternative view on things I ponder myself.

http://www.cryaloud.com/joshua_hu_gadarn_druids.htm

[The Puzzler]

Dont buy that.

Paragate..is not pronounced "Paara - Gayte". Its pronounced "Para -Gatheyy" meaning the far away shores... not the other shores!

The "Gate" implied in the quote is pronounced " Ja-aate" or "Ja-aatey" which essentially means go or going or gone ...

No...going doesnt imply that it has to go through the gate itself.

That's fine. Gates can be shut or they get opened, you only can open the door or the gate with a key, the symbol of Hades.

The OLB says the teachings of Buddha and basically Jesus were given to him by a Frisian - so these ideas should come from the West of Europe.

Which I am finding more and more they do, it's the whole rebirth through the gate thing seen everywhere - reborn, reincarnated, from a visit to the Underworld,t he European version has us doing - it's all the original idea taken to the East from Europe in a pure form and spread from India by priests who wanted to manipulate the information for their own gains.

That's what the OLB says anyway.

[The Puzzler]

Treasure Chest.

What's inside? The treasure.

What is the treasure? The riches.

What is the riches? Pluto

How do we get our riches? We open the chest.

What do we use to open the chest to get our reward, our treasure, our riches, our wealth?

A key.

Put this in context of the form of Hades, death instead of Pluto (who is riches, not death).

We get death and rebirth as our reward.

Don't you see the fuss the Egyptians went to for the rebirth cult?

But they had priests, like Magi.

Edited May 18, 2011 by The Puzzler