[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood

[The Puzzler]

Sorry, it got late and I had this on my notepad so I'll cut/paste it up anyway, too late for me to add to it now.

Thor

Names in Thrace.

Thrax - the quintessential Thracian - son of Aries - the red planet, warrior.

I say Thor is actually Thrax - he is an ancient Thracian red head God.

His father is Aries, also Mars or Tyr.

Bulgarian: Тракия, Trakiya, Greek: Θράκη, Thráki, Turkish: Trakya)

The Hebrew word Hur.

They say it means hole but Hur is everywhere, for a start it reminded me of the word Thor, and wondered if it could be related.

I found the Egyptian word Hur equates to Horos in Gk or Horus in Latin.

Horus, that is.

http://www.myetymology.com/greek/Horos.html

How about FIRE:

fire (n.)

O.E. fyr, from P.Gmc. *fuir (cf. O.S., O.Fris. fiur, O.N. fürr, M.Du., Du. vuur,

O.H.G. fiur, Ger. Feuer), from PIE *perjos, from root *paewr- (cf. Armenian hur "fire, torch," Czech pyr "hot ashes," Gk. pyr, Umbrian pir, Skt. pu, Hittite pahhur "fire").

So, in Armenian, where Noahs boat came to rest, the word Hur meant fire. Hittite fire is pahhur.

Many words have been shown to describe red heads, hur might be one, to describe the people's appearance. Fire heads, red heads. Hur's. Thors.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=fire

Skythian imo appears to be related to this root - Skite.

skite

“contemptible person,” 1790, earlier “sudden stroke or blow” (1785), perhaps from O.N. skyt-, from skjota “to shoot.”

My Scottish friend says this word alot to her family, everyone's always skiting, meaning showing off, show off, contemptible person.

The Scots and Scythians are often connected.

A female skjota (archer) is a skjotamus - which always rung of the name Artemis to me as well.

Scythians were top archers so it would make the most sense for them to be called as such - archers, shooters - skjota's, skyt's in Old Norse.

Gelonus, (also transliterated Helonus), Ukrainian: Гелон, Helon, 50°05′N 34°38′E / 50.09°N 34.63°E / 50.09; 34.63, was according to Herodotus, the capital of the Scythian tribe Budini.

In Greek mythology, Gelonus was the son of Echidna and Heracles, he had an older brother Agathyrus and a younger Scythes.[3] Hylea is pointed to be where was the Echidna's cave between people Arimi or Harimi, the Greeks on the Euxine believed that this was somewhere in Scythia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gelonos

In Greek mythology, Echidna (Greek: Ἔχιδνα, ekhis, ἔχις, meaning "she viper") was half woman half snake, known as the "Mother of All Monsters" because most of the monsters in Greek myth were mothered by her. In Theogony, Hesiod described her as:

[...] the goddess fierce Echidna who is half a nymph with glancing eyes and fair cheeks, and half again a huge snake,[1] great and awful, with speckled skin, eating raw flesh beneath the secret parts of the holy earth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Echidna_(mythology)

In his account of Scythia (Inquiries book 4), Herodotus writes that the Gelonii were formerly Greeks, having settled away from the coastal emporia among the Budini, where they "use a tongue partly Scythian and partly Greek":

The Budini for their part, being a large and numerous nation, are all mightily blue-eyed and ruddy. And a city among them has been built, a wooden city, and the name of the city is Gelonus. Of its wall then in size each side is of thirty stades and high and all wooden. And their homes are wooden and their shrines. For indeed there is in the very place Greek gods’ shrines adorned in the Greek way with statues, altars and wooden shrines and for triennial Dionysus festivals in honour of Dionysus...

Above the Sauromatae (Sarmatians), possessing the second region, dwell the Budini, whose territory is thickly wooded with trees of every kind. The Budini are a large and powerful nation: they have all deep blue eyes, and bright red hair. The Budini, however, do not speak the same language as the Geloni, nor is their mode of life the same. They are the aboriginal people of the country, and are nomads; unlike any of the neighbouring races, they eat 'phtheir'.[1] Their country is thickly planted with trees of all manner of kinds. In the very woodiest part is a broad deep lake, surrounded by marshy ground with reeds growing on it. Here otters are caught, and beavers, with another sort of animal which has a square face. With the skins of this last the natives border their capotes: and they also get from them a remedy, which is of virtue in diseases of the womb...Beyond the Budini, as one goes northward, first there is a desert, seven days' journey across...

Gelonus was a town inhabited by the Greeks in the land of the Budini Scythes.

Later located eastward[citation needed] probably on the middle course of the Volga about Samara, the Budini are described as fair-eyed and red-haired, and lived by hunting in the dense forests. The 1911 Britannica surmises that they were Fenno-Ugric, of the branch now represented by the Udmurts and Komis, forced northwards by later immigrants.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budini

The Udmurts have often been described as an extremely red-haired and light-eyed people,[3] and there have been claims that they are the "most red-headed" people in the world.[4] Additionally, the ancient Budini tribe, which is speculated to be an ancestor of the modern Udmurts, were described by Herodotus as being predominantly red-headed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Udmurt_people

The first mention of a Uralic people is in Tacitus's Germania,[4] mentioning the Fenni (usually interpreted as referring to the Sami) and two other possibly Uralic tribes living in the farthest reaches of Scandinavia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uralic_languages

[Abramelin]

The next will make anyone think of the "Oera Linda Book Controversy" :

The "Ossian Controversy"

When it was first published Macpherson said that it was a translation of an ancient manuscript in Scottish Gaelic which had come into his possession, and which was a copy of an original work written by Ossian. This was contested by various people, including notably Samuel Johnson, who said that it was entirely the work of Macpherson himself. Both sides became passionate and vituperative in expressing their own view, and the controversy rumbled on over the next fifty years. The alleged manuscript never appeared, but later researches have shown that the work is based partly on genuine Highland traditions.

Those familiar with the later, more authentic, versions in English of ancient Gaelic literature will recognise many of the names and stories - Fingal is evidently Fionn Mac Cumhaill; Temora is Tara (Temro in Old Irish); Cuthulinn is Cú Chulainn (though a much feebler figure than the Irish hero), Dar-Thula is Deirdre of the Sorrows; Ros-cranna is Gráinne and Dermid is Diarmuid Ó Duibhne, though the Pursuit of Diarmuid and Gráinne is not one of Macpherson's stories. And so on. However, much of the work is Macpherson's own invention -- the tragic love story of Fingal and Agandecca, for example; and though "Temora" has some similarity to the Battles of Ventry and of Gabhra, the details are different. The footnotes (by Macpherson) are almost entirely misleading or downright wrong - be warned!

http://www.exclassics.com/ossian/ossintro.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Macpherson

[Knul]

Dr. J.H. Halbertsma learned about the Ossian mystification through Willem Bilderdijk, who published Fingal in 1805. Halbertsma was very interested as can be seen from his collection. There is no doubt, that the Oera Linda Book is an imitation of the Ossian verses.

Arend, J.P. Fingal, naar het Gaelisch van Ossian : voorafgegaan door een onderzoek naar de echtheid der gedichten van Ossian / door J.P. Arend. - Te Amsterdam : bij Johs. van der Hey, 1845. - 207. ; in-8

MacPherson, James Fingal : in zes zangen, naar Ossiaan gevolgd / door Willem Bilderdijk. -Te Amsterdam : bij Johannes Allart, 1805. - 2 dl. : grav. ; 23 cm Saakes 4 (1805), p. 163, (1806), p. 207. - Mystificatie. De auteur is

James MacPherson. - Oorspr. titel: Fingal, an ancient epic poem, in six books. - 1762. Sign.: 2755 TL Bibliotheek Halbertsma

MacPherson, James Fingal, an ancient epic poem, in six books: together with several other poems, composed by Ossian, the Son of Fingal / transl. from the Galic language by James MacPherson. - London : Printed for Becket and De Hondt, 1762. - xvi, 270 p. ; 27 cm Bevat tevens: A dissertation concerning the antiquity &c. of the poems of Ossian the Son of Fingal. - p.: -xvi. Sign.: 2050 TL Bibliotheek Halbertsma

MacPherson, James The poems of Ossian / transl. by James MacPherson. - New ed. - London : Lackington, Allen, 1806. - 2 dl. ; in-8 Auteur is James MacPherson. - Containing Dr. Blair's three celebrated critical dissertations and a Preliminary discourse, or review of the recent controversy relative to the authenticity of the poems, in which the opinions of David Hume, Mr. Laing, Mr. Macdonald, the Highland Society, Mr. Knight &c. &c. are considered. Sign.: 2046 TL Bibliotheek Halbertsma. - 2 dl. in 1 bd

MacPherson, James The poems of Ossian / transl. by James MacPherson. - A new ed., carefully revised and corrected. - Paris : Amable Costes, 1830. - 2 dl. ; in-12. - (Glashin's British classics) Auteur is James MacPherson. Sign.: 2047 TL Bibliotheek Halbertsma. - 2 dl. in 1 bd 02/12/96 Bibliotheek Halbertsma 254

MacPherson, James The poems of Ossian, in the original Gaelic / with a literal translation into Latin, by the late Robert Macfarlan ; together with a dissertation on the authenticity of the poems, by Sir John Sinclair,

bart. ; and a transl. from the Italian of the Abbè Cesarotti's dissertation on the controversy respecting the authenticity of Ossian ; with notes and a supplemental essay by John M'Arthur. - London : W. Bulmer, 1807. - 3 dl. ; 25 cm Auteur is James MacPherson. Sign.: 2045 TL Bibliotheek Halbertsma

[Abramelin]

Halbertsma visited Scotland, Menno:

Toen hij op een van zijn reizen in Engeland, Schotland en Ierland een groot aantal musea en oudheidkamers had bezocht, besloot hij terug in Nederland zijn belangrijke verzameling oudheden aan de provincie Fryslân te schenken (1853). De provincie opende daarmee een Kabinet van Oudheden, de voorganger van het huidige Fries Museum.

http://www.sirkwy.nl/titel/416

.

Edited September 19, 2011 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

We have discussed Vincker's early analysis of the OLB, and Otharus said that this Dutch, 19th century linguist was wrong with his conclusion that the OLB was written in a something resembling bad Old or phony Frisian.

But today I read his whole analysis more attentively, and came - through my meager knowledge of linguistics - to the conclusion that Vincker was right about the OLB language all along.... but also.... that Halbertsma is ruled out as a possible suspect.

Let me give you an example in modern Dutch and English what this Vincker was trying to convey with his analysis:

Modern Dutch:

De vrouw vertelde haar zoon dat hij zijn rommel op moest ruimen

Modern English:

The woman told her son to clean up his mess.

But now - using 'mistakes' like the OLB language contains:

De vrouw vertelde zijn zoon dat hij haar rommel op moest ruimen

or:

The woman told his son he had to clean up her mess.

According to Vinckers the OLB is filled to the brim with these kind of linguistic errors.

But did the Frisian Law texts of the 13th century have the same errors? No, not at all. And not even the older Gothic texts.

So, either the OLB Adelas and the OLB Likkos and so on were either near illiterate or had never had any real training in their own language, or the one responsible for creating the OLB knew something of Old Frisian, but nothing about linguistics (the whole accusative, dative, cases and articles stuff many of us loved to forget about after they left highschool).

A Halbertsma would never in his life have made these blunders, not even to create a socalled 'ancient text'.

And now I also understand why no (Dutch) linguist is interested in taking part in a forum discussion about the OLB: for them it is so bloody obvious this is a hoax/falsification, that they think it's a waste of time.

.

Edited September 19, 2011 by Abramelin

[Knul]

You gave exactly the reason, why I have brought up the role of the non-linguist (bookbinder) Stadermann. I have already mentioned, that the OLB script contains - the easy way - only part of the letters (only majuscels) presented in the scheme. In my opinion the text of J.H. Halbertsma has been corrumped when it was transcribed in the juulscript (developed by Halbertsma) to deceive Cornelis over de Linden and subsequently again when the text wa re-transcribed by J.G. Ottema. The trancription into the juul script has been done by a simple word-for-word transcription*, not understanding the grammatical contents of the original text, nor the deviations. Similarly this was done by the scratched word Wak! for vigilate in the emblema and the building of a huge collection of books in many languages, which Cornelis over de Linden could not understand, like Old Frisian, French and even Old Icelandic, bought in Amsterdam. You remember, that I suppose, that Cornelis over de Linden must have felt, that there was something out of order with this Stadermann, as he started immediately - within a month - after Stadermann's dead with his investigations after 18 or 19 years of silence. Cornelis over de Linden admits to Verwijs, that he did not understand the OLB and insisted on a tranlation. By the way, the OLB could not have been written by someone, who did not know about Oldfrisian, who would not have a good theological and juridical knowledge, who would not be interested in history and archeology or botany, and who would not know about geography (see Kerenak!) and who would not be an excellent narrator of folk stories. After all the author introduces himself as Hidde. Liko could be the name of his brother Eeltje < Eelco < Eliko < Liko or Eelco Verwijs. Your comment on the poor Oldfrisian text however would exclude Eelco Verwijs as well, who was a professional linguist and who would not make similar mistakes neither, nor would any other linguist in the circle of the Frisian Genootschap.

*Bijvoorbeeld: Thit [dit] wil [wil] ik [ik] boppa [boven] ella [alles] dva [doen] , vmbe [om] thaet [dat] er [er] in [in] min [mijn] stât [staat] nên [geen] burch [burcht] ovir [over] is [is] , hwêr [waar] in [in] tha [de] bêrtnesa gebeurtenissen] vpskrêven [opgeschreven] wrde [worden] lik gelijk] to [te] fâra [voren].

[Abramelin]

I think there is a problem with your reasoning here, Menno.

Suppose Halbertsma did write the original Old Frisian text of the OLB. In that case he would not have made all the grammatical errors, and so the one transliterating his text into OLB script - even if that person knew nothing of Old Frisian - would also not have made these errors; this person would simply have transliterated every latin letter of the Old Frisian text into an OLB letter.

On the other hand - if the original text was written in Dutch - and the one translating used some kind of Old Frisian dictionary (the one composed by the Halbertsmas for instance) - yes, only then these errors would have been made if the one translating the Dutch text would not have known about all the deviations in Old Frisian.

A modern example is using Google Translator: if I use Google Translator to translate a Dutch text into English, then the result in English will look ridiculous for someone who knows both languages, and one understanding both languages will know that I didn't understand a word of English or its grammatical rules.

+++++++++

EDIT:

To make it more clear:

Ak skilu wí úse lond wera mith egge and mith orde and mith thá brúna skelde with thena stápa helm and with thene ráda skeld and with thet unriuchte hêrskipi.

(Ook zullen wij ons land verdedigen met zwaard en met speer en met het bruine schild tegen de hoge helm en tegen het rode schild en tegen de onrechte heerschappij.)

In English:

Also we will defend our land with sword and spear and with the brown shield against the high helmet and against the red shield and against the injust lordship/rule.

http://taaldacht.nl/2011/01/17/saksemarken-land-van-de-hoge-helm-en-het-rode-schild/

http://books.google.nl/books?id=wx-2mUd4KzEC&pg=PA103&lpg=PA103&dq=mith+egge+and+mith+orde+and+mith+tha+bruna+skelde&source=bl&ots=kJ549XV6QJ&sig=GcjmrrPf7DCAH6Rw_n9wQVDRjT0&hl=nl&ei=vSzJTcWOBM3n-gb9yLzIBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=mith%20egge%20and%20mith%20orde%20and%20mith%20tha%20bruna%20skelde&f=false

If I transliterate the first, Old Frisian line into OLB script, I will not make more errors than the one who first put that line on paper using latin script.

=

But now this text:

'We Frisians will defend our land with five arms: with sword and buckler, with spade, fork and spear, whether the tide be ebbing of flowing. We will fight day and night so that all Frisians may be free, both now and hereafter, as long as the wind blows through the clouds and the world remains.'

http://books.google.nl/books?id=uugOAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA57&lpg=PA57&dq=%22the+oath+of+Rustringen%22&source=bl&ots=A0vXO8vtEa&sig=Lr6Mz1rmkZDRNfliQ9ABv3ltSp0&hl=nl&ei=ISLJTZSyL4GAOpfazOoH&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22the%20oath%20of%20Rustringen%22&f=false

OK, the text is in English and someone not knowing anything of Old Frisian tries to translate it in Old Frisian, using only a dictionary; you can bet there will be many grammatical errors.

.

Edited September 20, 2011 by Abramelin

[Knul]

So, what do you suggest ? If the OLB would be an old text, as Otharus claims, it would not make sense that the text is full of grammatical mistakes. If the OLB would have been written by 19th century linguists like Verwijs or Halbertsma, it would not make sense either that the text is full of grammatical mistakes. If the OB would have been witten by Cornelis over the Linden, it would be an amazing effort, because he did not understand his own text. Who else remains ? A student's joke ?

[Abramelin]

So, what do you suggest ? If the OLB would be an old text, as Otharus claims, it would not make sense that the text is full of grammatical mistakes. If the OLB would have been written by 19th century linguists like Verwijs or Halbertsma, it would not make sense either that the text is full of grammatical mistakes. If the OB would have been witten by Cornelis over the Linden, it would be an amazing effort, because he did not understand his own text. Who else remains ? A student's joke ?

It must have been someone knowing near to nothing about the grammatical rules of Old Frisian.

So that rules out Verwijs or Halbertsma.

It would not rule out Over de Linden, exactly bacause of the same reason Verwijs and Halbertsma are ruled out; either he himself created the narrative in Dutch and translated it into Old Frisian with the use of nothing but a dictionary, or he translated an already existing Dutch text into Old Frisian (again, with a dictionary).

I agree, though: it would have been an amazing effort if Over de Linden did it all by himself, even if he had had the help of that German bookbinder.

But the important message is this: because of the many grammatical errors it can not have been an ancient, Old Frisian text/manuscript.

++++++++++++

EDIT:

Halbertsma's Old Frisian Dictionary wasn't even available at the time the OLB was first published, so it must have been an older one:

Von Richthofen, Karl. Altfriesisches Wörterbuch. Göttingen: Dieterichsche Buchhandlung, 1840

http://argyf.fryske-akademy.eu/files/fa/uitgaven/trefwoord/altfriesisches-handworterbuch.pdf

And here it is online:

http://books.google.nl/books?id=RA4GAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA579&dq=Von+Richthofen,+Karl.+Altfriesisches+W%C3%B6rterbuch.+G%C3%B6ttingen:+Dieterichsche+Buchhandlung,+1840&hl=nl&ei=RbJ4TsSNHcuXOu3y2aAN&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CEkQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q&f=false

You can download the whole book/PDF from that last link; it's like 26 Mb.

.

Edited September 20, 2011 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

Btw, I checked this thread, and aside from Von Richthofen's 1840 dictionary, Otharus also mentioned an older one:

Proeve van een friesch en Nederlandsch woordenboek

Montanus de Haan Hettema, 1832

http://books.google.nl/books?id=Y9Y9AAAAYAAJ&pg=PP7&dq=Proeve+van+een+Friesch+en+Nederlandsch+woordenboek,+by+M.+Hettema+(1832)&hl=nl&ei=tLl4TpLjKdGXOpqU4JcN&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

And you can download this 8 Mb dictionary (in Dutch) too.

[Knul]

Cornelis over de Linden possessed the Von Richthofen, Karl. Altfriesisches Wörterbuch. Göttingen: Dieterichsche Buchhandlung, 1840 (no. 60 on his booklist), but it is not known in which year he bought it. The same applies to Proeve van een friesch en Nederlandsch woordenboek Montanus de Haan Hettema, 1832 (no. 64 on his booklist).

His son, L.F. over de Linden denies, that his father Cornelis over de Linden could have written the OLB, as has been stated by Ottema as well. Moreover, it is in contradiction too to the words of C.o.d.L. himself, that he received the book from his Aunt Aafje in Enkhuizen in 1848. From the OLB text one may be certain, that the author was a genuine Frisian native speaker. This may be derived from the use of wei = weg, away. C.o.d.L. did not speak Frisian.

[Abramelin]

Menno,

Do you know what Frisian dialect this text is written in:

Wi frisar skilath wera use lond mith fif wepne mith egge ande skeld mith spada mith forke ande mith ord hweder ebba jeftha flod.

Wi skilath kampene dei ande nacht thet elle frisar kunna fry wesa hiudega ande hirnei aka langhê thi wind bla thruch thet wolkne ande wrald standa liva.

.

Edited September 20, 2011 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

Cornelis over de Linden possessed the Von Richthofen, Karl. Altfriesisches Wörterbuch. Göttingen: Dieterichsche Buchhandlung, 1840 (no. 60 on his booklist), but it is not known in which year he bought it. The same applies to Proeve van een friesch en Nederlandsch woordenboek Montanus de Haan Hettema, 1832 (no. 64 on his booklist).

(..)

C.o.d.L. did not speak Frisian.

I do not speak Frisian either...

.

Edited September 20, 2011 by Abramelin

[Knul]

The text comes from the First Rustringer Codex (ca. 1300), 121 s. B.J.P. van Bavel, Jaarboek voor middeleeuwse geschiedenis. The text of the picture comes from the Skeltana rjucht (Westerlauwers), I think.

[Abramelin]

The text comes from the First Rustringer Codex (ca. 1300), 121 s. B.J.P. van Bavel, Jaarboek voor middeleeuwse geschiedenis. The text of the picture comes from the Skeltana rjucht (Westerlauwers), I think.

Wrong:

I translated the English text I posted earlier, only using the Old Frisian dictionaries I posted the links to:

We Frisians will defend our land with five arms: with sword and buckler, with spade, fork and spear, whether the tide be ebbing of flowing. We will fight day and night so that all Frisians may be free, both now and hereafter, as long as the wind blows through the clouds and the world remains.

http://books.google.nl/books?id=uugOAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA57&lpg=PA57&dq=%22the+oath+of+Rustringen%22&source=bl&ots=A0vXO8vtEa&sig=Lr6Mz1rmkZDRNfliQ9ABv3ltSp0&hl=nl&ei=ISLJTZSyL4GAOpfazOoH&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22the%20oath%20of%20Rustringen%22&f=false

I have never been able to find the Old Frisian original, so I 'translated' it myself, heh.

See what I mean?

Not that bad, eh? For someone who doesn't speak Frisian and certainly not Old Frisian?

Wi frisar skilath wera use lond mith fif wepne mith egge ande skeld mith spada mith forke ande mith ord hweder ebba jeftha flod.

Wi skilath kampene dei ande nacht thet elle frisar kunna fry wesa hiudega ande hirnei aka langhê thi wind bla thruch thet wolkne ande wrald standa liva.

The only word I really made up was "frisar". I wasn't sure what the Old Frisian plural for 'Frisian' was, so I simply invented it myself. For the rest I used some 'poetic freedom' (and my highschool knowledge of Old Dutch), like the creators of the OLB must have used to make their 'language' feel 'old Frisian-ish'.

You fell for it.

Now I am really curious about this text in that First Rustringer Codex and see how close I was.

The picture I created with the help of this site: http://www.oeralindaboek.nl/

Click on "Jeugd" (= the image of the blue book), then click on the [de letters] button on top of the new page, and then add the text you want to transliterate in the box below where it says "Schrijf je eigen naam". Finally, click on the blue button [oera linda letters].

The text in the picture is the transliteration into OLB script of the Old Frisian-ish text I made up myself with help of those dictionaries.

It was nothing but a copy-and-paste job to create that picture.

.

Edited September 20, 2011 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

Now suppose I am really evil, and that I have an axe to grind with someone or some people.

I will tell you about my 'plan':

I will tell my ex-collegue, a Hungarian called Tibor, a guy who trades in antiquities from all over the Netherlands, that the ancient Frisians didn't really like those "Magyar"...

Of course he will ask me why I think they didn't, and I will let him read a Dutch translation of the OLB, and preferrably the 'juicy' parts (concerning those Magyar/Magi/Hungarians).

I know he will tell me he traded with Frisians and never had any problems with them, earned a lot, and why would I even believe this bull.

Then I will tell him these Frisians really do not like 'you Magyar people', but are not averse to sell you furniture that YOU believe is antique. "These people feel a grudge against you Hungarians, and will love it if they are able to fool just one of you. AND... earn money at the same time, hahahaha !! "

I know this guy for 17 years, and I know that if I keep going on like - twisting and distorting and lying through my teeth - he eventually feel convinced I'm telling him the truth.

He's really smart, I tell ya, but he doesn't know everything about Dutch history (and he knows a LOT about Dutch history; it was his hobby, once...). He will say - laughing - that he sold this Frisian furniture for lots of profit, but by now he will be a lot more interested in what I have to say about these Frisians and their 'hidden opinions' about Hungarians ( all lies of course, I really do not have one single problem with Frisians).

OK, he will be heated up to a point he's about to explode, and then I'll tell him I have been involved in a discussion about Frisian history with some people of Frisian descent for more than 2 years.

Then... I will tell him "I have a cunning plan" (think "Black Adder"/"Baldrick"), lol.

I'll tell him I need a centuries old wooden box from some flee-market, and books of about the same age.

He will invite me to travel with him to one of these flee-markets (he did many times already).

Maybe it will take days or weeks or even months, but one day we will have found those antique books and that wooden box.

Maybe it will cost me some 100 euros, but I am 'fanatic' and have a good and well-paid job (I don't, sigh).

I also know how to create ink that is 'ages old'....

Next step: I will write some 'missing' pages in "Old Frisian-ish" of the Oera Linda Book on the blanc pages of these old books and expose then to a UV lamp for several months.

Then I will put these 'aged' pages in that old wooden box, and travel to Poland.

I will visit a centuries old Catholic monastery, and ask the monks living there if I am allowed to visit their library.

I will tell them I am a devout Catholic (I am not at all, btw), and that I really want to read one of their ancient religious books written in Latin (it will 'strengthen my Christian belief", HAHAHA!!).

So they will feel great that someone from that rich and prosperous country in the far west of Europe (where many Polish people go to to find work) is willing to visit their humble monastery to 'strenghten his belief in Jesus'...

The library is huge, filled to the brim with medieval religious books and manuscripts.

I'll stay there for a couple of hours, pretending I am reading one of their old books, but in reality I need time to hide my wooden box on one of the book-shelves.

After managing to hide the wooden box, I return to the abbot, and tell them it was my greatest life-experience, I really feel 'elated'...

But then I will ask him, "What's that wooden box on shelf 9, behind manuscript 'so-and so'???"

He will of course wonder what the hell I am talking about, and return to the library with me to find out about the box.

He will find it, open it, find the 'ancient papers' and wonder what it's all about.

I will pretend that "I know NOOOOTHING" (think 'Manuel', Fawlty Towers'), and discuss with the abbot for some time about the text ('of course' I have never seen anything like it...) and where it might have come from, finally tell him 'Goodbye', and leave.

And then.... then things get rolling, heh.

[Knul]

Did you read my abstract ?

Vmbifatting

In a risent kalth kes vndersok nei 'et skriverskip fon thet Wra Linda Bok is faststellath, that thene bok skreven is thrvch tha Demster thu-mi-ne aend tallerde Ds. J.H. Halbertsma aend that thisse bvrath is in samnwrkinge mith sin brother Dr. E.H. Halbertsma, husdotter in Grow (Fr). Sin nam werth al to fara nomth as skriver fon thet Wra Linda Bok. That kalth kes vndersok letath thvs to a festiging fon thi vpfattinge. Vp grvnth fon inligtinga in tha tex fon thet Wra Linda Bok is al to fara faststellath wrden, thaet thene bok in tha mitha fon tha 19tha ewa to standvm kvma haeve mota to wesande. That werth ak festigath thrvch thet pampyrvndersok fon thene bok. Wak !

http://www.rodinbook.nl/

[Knul]

Here is your text (from http://www.klaaskolijnnet.nl/aantekeningen.html)

In de literatuur is het een vrij onbekend gegeven, dat de oude Friezen zich bedienden van een bruin wapenschild. Des te interessanter is het, dat we dit bruine schild in de Rijmkroniek van Klaas Kolyn tegenkomen en wellicht nog bijzonderder, dat het bruine schild ook voorkomt in een andere mystificatie, namelijk het Oera Linda Boek. De vraag is natuurlijk hoe Kolyn en Oera Linda aan deze informatie komen. Ik veronderstel dat die afkomstig is van Simon Gabbema, die een verwoed verzamelaar was van Oud-Friese teksten. De vermelding van het bruine schild komt aan de orde in de hierna volgende Riustringische eed (Riustringisch is een Ostfries dialect):

Thet is ak londriucht: Thet wi Frisa hagon ene seburch to stiftande, and to sterande ene goldene hop, ther umbe al Frislond lith; the skil on wesa alleraierdik iuin har oron, ther thi salta se, betha thes dis an tes nachtes, to swilith. Ther skil thi utrosta an thi inrosta thos wigis plichtich wesa, tha strete thes wintres and thes sumures, mith weyke and mith weine to farande, thet thi wein tha oron metha mugi. Alsa thi inrosta to tha dike cumth, sa hage re alsa gratene fretho opa tha dike, alsa re oua tha wilasa werpe, and alsa re ona tha weida stherekhoui; heth there thenne buta dike alsa felo heles londes and grenes turues, thet ter ne dik stathul mithi halda mugi; ac neth there nauwet sa felo buta dike heles londes and grenes turues, thet ter ne dik mithi halda mugi; sa hage re binna dike thritich fota turues and thritich fetma to gerse; thet skil wesa alla fennon and fili, er Sante Vitus di. Uta skilu wi Frisa use lond halda mit thrium tauwon, mith tha spada and mith there bera and mith there forke; ak skilu wi use lond were mith egge and mith orde, and mith tha bruna skelde, with thena stapa helm and with thene rada skeld an with thet unriuchte herskipi. Aldus skilu wi Frisa halda use lond fon oua to uta, ief us god helpa wili and sante Pederr. -

Dit is ook recht van het land: Dat wij, Friezen, een zeeborg te stichten hebben, een gouden hoepel aanleggen moeten die rond heel Friesland ligt, waavan elke dijksroede (oude maat) gelijk zal zijn aan de andere, (en) waar de zoute zee, beide overdag en 's nachts tegenop loopt. Daarom zal de buitenste en de binnenste (degenen die het verst en dichtsbij de dijk leven) verplicht zijn om over de straat te gaan in de winter en in de zomer met een slede en kar, zodat men elkaar mag ontmoeten (bij de dijk). Als de binnenste komt naar de dijk, zal hij dezelfde vrede op de dijk kennen die hij zou hebben op het ongewijde land en als hij zou hebben in het gewijde kerkhof. He heeft dan (ten gebruik) buiten de dijk net zoveel land en groene zoden (plaggen) (dat) hij de dijk ermee behouden kan. Als hij niet genoeg land en groene zoden heeft om de dijk mee te houden, dan heeft hij (tot zijn beschikking) binnen de dijk dertig voet voor turven en dertig voet voor groen land. Het (werk) zal klaar zijn voor Sint Vitus dag (15 Juni). Zo zullen wij Friezen, ons land behouden met drie werktuigen: met de spade en de wagen [bera = baar, voor het transport] en met de vork; ook zullen we ons land verdedigen met het zwaard en de speer en met het bruine schild, tegen de hoge helm en tegen het rode schild en tegen onrechtvaardige heersers. Aldus zullen wij, Friezen, ons land hoog en droog houden, als God ons helpt en Sint Petrus.'

Het rode schild wordt aan de Vikingen toegeschreven, maar dit heb ik niet bevestigd gevonden. De tekst is afkomstig uit het Asega-boek, een verzameling Oudfriese wets- en rechtsteksten uit de 13de-15de eeuw. Bron: www. waddenzeesites.nl.

[Abramelin]

No Sir, that is the wrong quote.

I already posted that line, but it is NOT the same line that I translated.

Read my post 6332.

And please... read REALLY carefully.

This is YOUR line:

Also we will defend our land with sword and spear and with the brown shield against the high helmet and against the red shield and against the injust lordship/rule.

THIS is MY line:

We Frisians will defend our land with five arms: with sword and buckler, with spade, fork and spear, whether the tide be ebbing of flowing. We will fight day and night so that all Frisians may be free, both now and hereafter, as long as the wind blows through the clouds and the world remains..

.

Edited September 20, 2011 by Abramelin

[Knul]

Citation: Wagret, P. Polderlands. London: Meuthen, 1968. I don't have this book. Maybe someone can help with the citation.

[Abramelin]

Citation: Wagret, P. Polderlands. London: Meuthen, 1968. I don't have this book. Maybe someone can help with the citation.

This is the source of the line I translated from English:

http://books.google.nl/books?id=uugOAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA57&lpg=PA57&dq=%22the+oath+of+Rustringen%22&source=bl&ots=A0vXO8vtEa&sig=Lr6Mz1rmkZDRNfliQ9ABv3ltSp0&hl=nl&ei=ISLJTZSyL4GAOpfazOoH&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22the%20oath%20of%20Rustringen%22&f=false

And NO ONE here ever showed me the 13th century Old Frisian source... so... I translated the line myself, using Old Frisian dictionaries.

The point is: I do not speak Frisian, I do not speak Old Frisian, but I managed to translate it anyway.

And so could an Over de Linden (or anyone else for that matter).

I hope you get my point now, Menno.

.

Edited September 20, 2011 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

This is the source of the line I translated from English:

http://books.google.nl/books?id=uugOAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA57&lpg=PA57&dq=%22the+oath+of+Rustringen%22&source=bl&ots=A0vXO8vtEa&sig=Lr6Mz1rmkZDRNfliQ9ABv3ltSp0&hl=nl&ei=ISLJTZSyL4GAOpfazOoH&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22the%20oath%20of%20Rustringen%22&f=false

And NO ONE here ever showed me the 13th century Old Frisian source... so... I translated the line myself, using Old Frisian dictionaries.

The point is: I do not speak Frisian, I do not speak Old Frisian, but I managed to translate it anyway.

And so could an Over de Linden (or anyone else for that matter).

I hope you get my point now, Menno.

.

I found the original Old Frisian version of the sentence you posted, Menno:

"Vta skilu wi Frisa vse lond halda mith thrium tauwon, mith tha spada and mith bera and mith there forke; ac skilu wi use lond wera mith egge and mith orde, and mith tha bruna skelde, with thene stapa helm and with thene rada skeld, and with thet unriuchte herskipi. Aldus skilu wi Frisa halda use lond fon oua to uta, ief us god helpa wili and sante Pederr."

( Zo zullen wij Friezen, ons land behouden met drie werktuigen: met de spade en de wagen en met de vork; ook zullen we ons land verdedigen met het zwaard en de speer en met het bruine schild, tegen de hoge helm en tegen het rode schild (toegeschreven aan de Vikingen) en tegen onrechtvaardige heersers. Aldus zullen wij, Friezen, ons land hoog en droog houden, als God ons helpt en Sint Petrus ).

http://www.waddenzeesites.nl/asp/getnieuwsbericht.asp?hrec=233268&srcdoc=nieuwsbericht.asp&language=dutch

This is somewhat shorter/incomplete (I posted this version a couple of times):

"Ak skilu wí úse lond wera mith egge and mith orde and mith thá brúna skelde with thena stápa helm and with thene ráda skeld and with thet unriuchte hêrskipi."

(Ook zullen wij ons land verdedigen met zwaard en met speer en met het bruine schild tegen de hoge helm en tegen het rode schild en tegen de onrechte heerschappij.)

In English:

Also we will defend our land with sword and spear and with the brown shield against the high helmet and against the red shield and against the injust lordship/rule.

=

And THIS was a line in English, and of which no Old Frisian original could be found:

We Frisians will defend our land with five arms: with sword and buckler, with spade, fork and spear, whether the tide be ebbing of flowing. We will fight day and night so that all Frisians may be free, both now and hereafter, as long as the wind blows through the clouds and the world remains.

~~SOURCE~~

And the translation *I* created, using dictionaries and some 'poetic freedom':

Wi frisar skilath wera use lond mith fif wepne mith egge ande skeld mith spada mith forke ande mith ord hweder ebba jeftha flod.

Wi skilath kampene dei ande nacht thet elle frisar kunna fry wesa hiudega ande hirnei aka langhê thi wind bla thruch thet wolkne ande wrald standa liva.

+++

Conclusion:

My 'translation' of the sentence in English wasn't that bad. If I had not translated 'Frisians' into 'frisar' (I have been reading in the OLB too much..) but just translated it as 'frisa' , then it would have been near perfect.

"Skilath" appears to be an older form of "skilu" of your line, Menno, and that's why I used it.

.

Edited September 21, 2011 by Abramelin

[Knul]

I guess you think this is a proof, that anyone could write the OLB with a dictionary, even Cornelis over de Linden (or Stadermann). If so, please explain, why the OLB text has so many spelling and grammatical variants, when the same dictionary has been used, e.g. Lydahisbvrg next to Lydasbvrg.

[Abramelin]

I guess you think this is a proof, that anyone could write the OLB with a dictionary, even Cornelis over de Linden (or Stadermann). If so, please explain, why the OLB text has so many spelling and grammatical variants, when the same dictionary has been used, e.g. Lydahisbvrg next to Lydasbvrg.

Who said the same dictionary has been used? I already posted links to 2 dictionaries that must have been available to Over de Linden.

I used them.

And I mentioned 'poetic freedom', so I translated "Frisians" into "frisar". I also used what I remember of Old Dutch, a knowledge from highschool I already used to post many near literal translations of sentences from the OLB.

When I did, you had not registered here, but it amazed me I could read almost complete sentences of the OLB with nothing but my knowledge of Old Dutch. Well, Dutch is one descendent of Frisian so it shouldn't be that strange.

OK, so let's say I am going to write a 'lost chapter' of the OLB. You can bet I will use every available online Old Frisian dictionary, together with what I know of Old Dutch, AND the way sentences were constructed in Old Dutch.

Add to that some distorted lines from the Rüstringer Codex and I think I will come quite far.

The result will be that many words will have a somewhat different spelling, and the used grammar will not be consistent.

I won't say it will be an easy job, no way, but I can imagine someone fanatic enough could do it. Certainly with the help of a friend or several friends.

.

Edited September 21, 2011 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

This is the Old Dutch-ish I used to come to the Old Frisian-ish translation of the English sentence:

Wij Friezen zullen weren ons land met vijf wapens met zwaard (the Dutch 'egge' is the sword-like part of a plow) en schild met spade met (hooi/hay)vork en met speer zowel bij (whether it is) eb of vloed.

Wij zullen kampen dag en nacht (zo)dat alle Friezen kunnen vrij wezen heden (read: 'huidig') en hierna zolang de wind blaast door de wolken en wereld bestaande blijft.

Wi frisar skilath wera use lond mith fif wepne mith egge ande skeld mith spada mith forke ande mith ord hweder ebba jeftha flod.

Wi skilath kampene dei ande nacht thet elle frisar kunna fry wesa hiudega ande hirnei aka langhê thi wind bla thruch thet wolkne ande wrald standa liva.

-

And with this I started:

We Frisians will defend our land with five arms: with sword and buckler, with spade, fork and spear, whether the tide be ebbing of flowing. We will fight day and night so that all Frisians may be free, both now and hereafter, as long as the wind blows through the clouds and the world remains.

If I use correct modern Dutch, and make a literal translation, this is what you should get:

Wij Friezen zullen ons land met vijf wapens verdedigen: met zwaard en schild, met spade, vork en speer, zowel bij afnemend als bij stijgend tij.

Wij zullen dag en nacht vechten opdat alle Friezen vrij kunnen zijn, zowel nu als hierna, zolang de wind door de wolken waait en de wereld blijft bestaan.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

EDIT:

I know I keep saying I use Old Dutch, but in fact it is Middle Dutch.

I use the words "Old Dutch" because it's old to me, lol.

http://www.literatuurgeschiedenis.nl/lg/middeleeuwen/middelnederlands/index.html

..

.

Edited September 21, 2011 by Abramelin