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Riaan

[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood

11,638 posts in this topic

Katsburg - Kassel has been suggested by Ottema in the brochure Leeuwarden, De Middelzee en Het Oera Linda Boek, page 1 (no date). Similarly Buda-Budapest and Nyfryasburch- Freiburch (Zwaben, Brisgau) come from Ottema. He does not mention Lumkamakja in this brochure. In his Geschiedkundige aanteekeningen en ophelderingen (1878) he says that the name Kattenburg still exists in Kassel and refers to Suetonius Vitell. 14: Catta mulier.

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Katsburg - Kassel has been suggested by Ottema in the brochure Leeuwarden, De Middelzee en Het Oera Linda Boek, page 1 (no date). Similarly Buda-Budapest and Nyfryasburch- Freiburch (Zwaben, Brisgau) come from Ottema. He does not mention Lumkamakja in this brochure. In his Geschiedkundige aanteekeningen en ophelderingen (1878) he says that the name Kattenburg still exists in Kassel and refers to Suetonius Vitell. 14: Catta mulier.

It has been mentioned in this thread that Kattenburg could be (part of) Amsterdam

Wiki page about Kattenburg

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-1- Al-Khwārizmī's "On the Calculation with Hindu Numerals" written about 825 AD;

-2- The first attack of the Vikings on Moorish Spain took place at 845 AD;

-3- Godfried the Seaking died (was murdered) in 885;

-4-The Thirteenth Caliphate - Iberia - was among the most if not simply the most advanced example of Muslim civilization in history (including modern times, I'd like to add);

-5- The first person to publish "The oera Linda Book" was Ottema, and it was this same Ottema who had noticed that the numerals as introduced by the OLB Godfreyath the Witking were very similar to what he saw in a Dutch library (The Royal Library/"De Koninklijke Bibliotheek" in The Hague), ie. on a copy of a plate from the Alhambra (Granada).

.

OK Abe.

I will say I don't think the numerals can be reconciled in any other way.

I spent quite a while revising the whole OLB and I think somehow it might be interpreted to have been written earlier than it says leading one to think, in some parts at least. It seems clear enough on one hand but then I read some parts that just would be impossible to have written any earlier than certain dates and I just don't think it's being meant to read like it was earlier.

It's a hodge-podge of notes, old letters, rewritten again and again by numerous people copied from walls of the burgh's and entries written by people.

My own issue is not whether the OLB is a recent forgery but whether any of the events could actually be true in it.

Many parts of it I don't know what to make of or can't explain.

I don't think it's a simple matter of placing the things into Viking times, even though that works in some parts. The founding of Tyre can't be put into that time frame though.

AFter reading the part Adela wrote, it could be she herself made or created much of the original story, some is copied from the walls, other parts don't say so. I don't think it's necessary to interpret it as though the numbers are as old as it seems to say in the current format of the way the manuscript would have been collected together.

I find it a bigger enigma than Atlantis if that can be believed.

Edited by The Puzzler

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I'm reading Ottema's preface again because he seems to think the whole book shows no signs of being able to be able to be unnacceptable.

Alewyn's book has it all. Page 290-291 is Ottema's conclusion of the numerals.

He thinks that "the manner of expressing all numbers by ten signs the Arabs learnt in the WEST, though the form was in some measure corresponding with their writing, and was written from left to right, after the Western fashion. Our ciphers seem here to have sprung from the Fries ciphers (siffar), which form had the same origin as the handwriting and is derived from the lines of the Juul?"

He goes on in the next part to explain the books writers and it starts "the book as it lies before us consists of two parts, differing widely from each other, and of dates very far apart."

Anyway, I'm going to spend some time seeing how Ottema justifies some of this.

Edited by The Puzzler

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As for the place name of Lumkamakia: this could be related to Lemego in the name of Johan van Lemego from Groningen, but I did not yet locate the go (gouw) Lemego.

Apart from this: how comes Aken in a story about a jouney along the river Rhine (p. 210). Aken is far away from the Rhine delta (lowlands)and close to the Meuse (Maas).

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I'm reading Ottema's preface again because he seems to think the whole book shows no signs of being able to be able to be unnacceptable.

Alewyn's book has it all. Page 290-291 is Ottema's conclusion of the numerals.

He thinks that "the manner of expressing all numbers by ten signs the Arabs learnt in the WEST, though the form was in some measure corresponding with their writing, and was written from left to right, after the Western fashion. Our ciphers seem here to have sprung from the Fries ciphers (siffar), which form had the same origin as the handwriting and is derived from the lines of the Juul?"

He goes on in the next part to explain the books writers and it starts "the book as it lies before us consists of two parts, differing widely from each other, and of dates very far apart."

Anyway, I'm going to spend some time seeing how Ottema justifies some of this.

As far as I know the Roman ciphers in the Annales were replaced by Arabic ciphers during the reign of Charles the Great. Sure, the OLB could not use the Roman ciphers as the history precedes Roman times. However, the author or copier made one mistake: III. Ut-a skrifta Minnos. (p. 56).

It has been said, that the page numbers have been added later on. In the letters between Over de Linden and Verwijs no missing parts have been reported. I suppose, that such missing parts remained with Verwijs and have not been handed over to Ottema. So there is a chance, that these pages can be found yet in the archives of Verwijs. We could then find out, who added the page numbers. I guess Verwijs.

Edited by Knul

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I'm reading Ottema's preface again because he seems to think the whole book shows no signs of being able to be able to be unnacceptable.

Alewyn's book has it all. Page 290-291 is Ottema's conclusion of the numerals.

He thinks that "the manner of expressing all numbers by ten signs the Arabs learnt in the WEST, though the form was in some measure corresponding with their writing, and was written from left to right, after the Western fashion. Our ciphers seem here to have sprung from the Fries ciphers (siffar), which form had the same origin as the handwriting and is derived from the lines of the Juul?"

He goes on in the next part to explain the books writers and it starts "the book as it lies before us consists of two parts, differing widely from each other, and of dates very far apart."

Anyway, I'm going to spend some time seeing how Ottema justifies some of this.

Ottema was wrong: it was Al-Khwārizmī, a Muslem Persian, who learned about those numerals from the Indians and introduced them into the Muslem world, and after that they travelled to Europe.

They didn't learn about them in the west.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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It has been mentioned in this thread that Kattenburg could be (part of) Amsterdam

Wiki page about Kattenburg

In my opinion this Katsburg is Katwijk (Brittenburg) close to Ljudsburg or Lydasburg (Leiden) in the Rhine delta (p. 210). I think Suder-Flyland is Holland (between West-Flyland and Walhallagara) (p. 10).

Edited by Knul

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As for the place name of Lumkamakia: this could be related to Lemego in the name of Johan van Lemego from Groningen, but I did not yet locate the go (gouw) Lemego.

Apart from this: how comes Aken in a story about a jouney along the river Rhine (p. 210). Aken is far away from the Rhine delta (lowlands)and close to the Meuse (Maas).

Maybe this might help:

ORTSNAMEN:

Lemgo (Lemego), Archidiakonat>P: Vizearchidiakon: Drosten gen. Schoteler

- Stadt 59-60, 77-78, 190, 209, 213,>P: Backhaus, Becker, Bentenberg, Hurch, Stertfedde, Tiderici

http://www.lwl.org/hiko-download/Ortsnamenindex_Fraterhaus.pdf

This is all I could find; it appears to be the name of an Archdeaconry.

EDIT-1:

Benten-berg is north-west of Kassel, Backhaus south-west of Kassel (Germany).

EDIT-2:

Bingo:

Lemgo is a city in the Lippe district of North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany, with a population of c. 42,000.

It was founded in the 12th century by Bernhard II at the crossroad of two merchant routes. Lemgo was a member of the Hanseatic League, a medieval trading association of free cities in several northern European countries such as The Netherlands, Germany and Poland. In Lemgo the Ostwestfalen-Lippe University is situated.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemgo

(For those who can read German, here's a lot more info on Lemgo: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemgo

Das Gebiet, in dem die heutige Stadt Lemgo liegt, wurde Anfang des 11. Jahrhunderts Limgauwe oder Limga )

To be honest: it doesn't sound much like "Lumkamakia". It's the sound shifts: if its true, then it started as "Lumk.." , then "Limg..." and finally "Lemg...".

And what is this 'makia'??

+++++

EDIT-3:

Wodin thene aldeste hêmde to Lumka-mâkja bi thêre Ê-mude to Ast-flyland by sin eldrum t-us.

Wodin, the eldest, lived at Lumkamakia, near the Eemude, in Oostflyland, with his parents.

This "Eemude" must be "Emden", a city in north-west Germany, at the North Sea coast: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emden

From this, combined with what I found out, Lemego/Lemgo/Limgauwe/Limga cannot be the same place as Lumka-makia.

++++++++

EDIT-4:

It appears "Lumka" or "Lumke" is a Frisian girls name:

Frisian names are similar to those of the rest of the Netherlands but some different forms occur. Many of these are taken from a poem printed in the 'Ostfriesche Nachrichten'.

http://www.infernaldreams.com/names/Europe/Western/Netherlands.htm

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Maybe we are looking in the wrong direction for this "Lumka-makia".

In the OLB Eemude is spelled like "Ê-mude". We all think either "Ems" (the river) or "Emden" (the city).

But doesn't it mean "Mouth of the river Ee"? Like in "E-mouth"?

There was a river with that name, "Ee", and it connected the Middel Sea with the Zuiderzee/Flevo Lake (presentday IJsselmeer).

Wiki page about river Ee

mouth

O.E. muþ, from P.Gmc. *munthaz (cf. O.Fris. muth, O.N. munnr, M.Du. mont, Ger. Mund, Goth. munþs "mouth"), with characteristic loss of nasal consonant in O.E. (cf. tooth, goose, etc.), from PIE *mnto-s (cf. L. mentum "chin"). In the sense of "outfall of a river" it is attested from early 12c.; as the opening of anything with capacity (a bottle, cave, etc.) it is recorded from c.1200.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=mouth&searchmode=none

==

EDIT:

Note: this is not to say Eemude = IJmuiden, its just to explain a bit more what I tried to show about the origin of that name "E-mude":

Many ancient rivers in the Netherlands were called "Ee", or "Aa" or even "ij" (pronounced like the -ey- in 'hey').

I did a bit of reshuffling of letters, and then I got it: IJmuiden = IJ-mude!!

History

In the Roman era, this Velsen district was already inhabited, and archeological finds at the impoldered lake of Wijkermeer[1] indicate there was a North Sea port of some regional importance built here[2]. Present day IJmuiden includes four harbors: the vissershaven (Ship's code IJM), a fishing dock (visafslag), the haringhaven, the IJmondhaven and the Seaport Marina IJmuiden, a harbour for pleasure craft. IJmuiden became the largest fishing port of the Netherlands after the island of Urk became closed in by the Afsluitdijk. The town suffered heavy damage and demolition during World War II, because of its maritime importance.

Mouth of the IJ

The IJmuiden name literally means “mouth of the IJ”, which is a hint to the importance the town has for the Amsterdam harbor. The name “IJmuiden” first appeared as IJ-muiden in lines written in 1848 by the professor and journalist (and, later, a liberal finance minister in the Van Lynden van Sandenburg Cabinet) Simon Vissering. The present IJmuiden form was eventually adopted in 1876, as the North Sea Canal was being completed in this section

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IJmuiden

.

Edited by Abramelin

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I just remembered where I saw about the Chaldeans being priest-astrologers of Belus sent to the Euphrates.

Diodorus Siculus[2] claims that Belus founded a colony on the river Euphrates, and appointed the priests-astrologers whom the Babylonians call Chaldeans who like the priests of Egypt are exempt from taxation and other service to the state.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belus_(Egyptian)

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Just the text says, that Lumkamakia is in Ast-Flyland. This rules other possibilities out.

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Maybe this might help:

ORTSNAMEN:

Lemgo (Lemego), Archidiakonat>P: Vizearchidiakon: Drosten gen. Schoteler

- Stadt 59-60, 77-78, 190, 209, 213,>P: Backhaus, Becker, Bentenberg, Hurch, Stertfedde, Tiderici

http://www.lwl.org/hiko-download/Ortsnamenindex_Fraterhaus.pdf

This is all I could find; it appears to be the name of an Archdeaconry.

EDIT-1:

Benten-berg is north-west of Kassel, Backhaus south-west of Kassel (Germany).

EDIT-2:

Bingo:

Lemgo is a city in the Lippe district of North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany, with a population of c. 42,000.

It was founded in the 12th century by Bernhard II at the crossroad of two merchant routes. Lemgo was a member of the Hanseatic League, a medieval trading association of free cities in several northern European countries such as The Netherlands, Germany and Poland. In Lemgo the Ostwestfalen-Lippe University is situated.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemgo

(For those who can read German, here's a lot more info on Lemgo: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemgo

Das Gebiet, in dem die heutige Stadt Lemgo liegt, wurde Anfang des 11. Jahrhunderts Limgauwe oder Limga )

To be honest: it doesn't sound much like "Lumkamakia". It's the sound shifts: if its true, then it started as "Lumk.." , then "Limg..." and finally "Lemg...".

And what is this 'makia'??

+++++

EDIT-3:

Wodin thene aldeste hêmde to Lumka-mâkja bi thêre Ê-mude to Ast-flyland by sin eldrum t-us.

Wodin, the eldest, lived at Lumkamakia, near the Eemude, in Oostflyland, with his parents.

This "Eemude" must be "Emden", a city in north-west Germany, at the North Sea coast: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emden

From this, combined with what I found out, Lemego/Lemgo/Limgauwe/Limga cannot be the same place as Lumka-makia.

++++++++

EDIT-4:

It appears "Lumka" or "Lumke" is a Frisian girls name:

Frisian names are similar to those of the rest of the Netherlands but some different forms occur. Many of these are taken from a poem printed in the 'Ostfriesche Nachrichten'.

http://www.infernaldreams.com/names/Europe/Western/Netherlands.htm

.

This Lemgo could explain the name van Lemego. Well found ! But it is far from E-mude (Embden). Maybe Lumkamakja is an old name for Embden ? Lum- could be spelled as Lim-, Leim- (leem) or Lom-. This Wodin or Odin is said to be a viking. So the place should be found close to the sea and the mouth of the Eems. Maybe we have to look for it in the same atlases and sources as we did succesfully for Kerenak.

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This Lemgo could explain the name van Lemego. Well found ! But it is far from E-mude (Embden). Maybe Lumkamakja is an old name for Embden ? Lum- could be spelled as Lim-, Leim- (leem) or Lom-. This Wodin or Odin is said to be a viking. So the place should be found close to the sea and the mouth of the Eems. Maybe we have to look for it in the same atlases and sources as we did succesfully for Kerenak.

The spelling of the city is "Emden", and yes, it sounds close to E-mude.

But look closely at the way it is written in the OLB: E - mude.. or... the "mouth of the river Ee".

There was a small river with the name Ee... and it's mouth lay near a city called Lemmer.

Well, that doesn't sound much like "Lumka-makia", right?

OK, so I checked for maybe an older name, and this is what they think Lemmer was called centuries ago: Lemmerbroek or Lammerbroek.

In het jaar 1165 geeft bisschop Godfried van Utrecht aan de Friezen van

Lammerbroek een stuk grond in het stroomgebied van de Tjonger. Die grond lag tussen de oude loop van de Linde en Kuinre. Het is zeer waarschijnlijk dat diezelfde Friezen - van Lammerhoek of Lemsterhoek - op verzoek van de abt van het St. Oduifusklooster in Staveren de loop van de Kromme Ee bij Tacozijl hebben verbeterd en als ter zake kundigen later het Lindegebied onder handen namen in opdracht van die abt, die in dienst was van de bisschop van Utrecht. Van dit bisdom was Kuinre als 't ware een kolonie.

De Kromme Ee was vroeger een belangrijke verbinding tussen de Middelzee en het meer Flevo.

http://www.friesarchiefnet.nl/index.php?view=article&id=78&option=com_content

http://www.spanvis.nl/Lemstersluis%20eertijds%20Lemsterzijl/index.htm

In English:

In the year 1165 Bishop Godfried (LOL) of Utrecht gave a piece of land to the Frisians of Lammerbroek in the basin (?) of the river Tjonger

And the "Kromme Ee" is "Crooked/Bent/Curved Ee" in English, and it was an important connection between the Middel Sea and the Flevo Lake (future IJsselmeer).

So the city at the mouth of the Ee ("E-mude") was called "Lammerbroek" or ""Lemmerbroek" long ago; nowadays it's called "Lemmer".

It was also near that other 'interesting' river: the Linde, and located in the socalled "Lindegebied" = Linden area = Lindenoorden, heh.

My guess? "Lumkamakia" was a nickname for a city.

And the "kamakia" part makes me think of something, despite the fact that the name is written in the OLB like this, "Lumka-makia".

+++++++

EDIT:

"Lumka" or "Lumke" is a Frisian girl's name.

"Makia"?

mak-ia 70 und häufiger?, mek-k-ia, mait-ia, meit-ia, afries., sw. V. (2): nhd.

machen, reparieren, bauen, festsetzen, gerichtlich entscheiden, freisprechen,

verurteilen, beschuldigen, verklagen, erklären, erweisen, unter etwas bringen,

pfänden; ne. make (V.), repair (V.), build (V.), decide, accuse (V.), declare; Vw.:

s. for-, *lÆk-, ðt-, wi-ther-; Hw.: s. mek; vgl. ae. macian, anfrk. makon, as. makon*,

ahd. mahhæn; Q.: R, B, E, H, W, F, S; E.: germ. *makæn, sw. V., machen, kneten;

idg. *ma-, V., kneten, drücken, streichen, machen, Pokorny 696; W.: nfries.

maaikjen, V., machen; L.: Hh 68b, Rh 914b

http://www.koeblergerhard.de/germanistischewoerterbuecher/altfriesischeswoerterbuch/afries-M.pdf

LOL, maybe someone had a problem with a Frisian girl named "Lumka". And why?

"Kamakia" is Greek for "Harpoon".

"My sweatheart, Lumka, the harpoon".

Lum-ka-kamakia.......

Btw: (damned if I can find it again, but I read somewhere that) Lemmer was once a city in Friesland where whalers lived (think "harpoon").

.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Is it reasonable to leave the notification of Lumkamakja in Ast-Flyland ? I don't think so. Makja means make, in the OLB it refers to professions like shipmakja, silmakja. I haven't yet met makja in names of places. This makja should be something like -macia.

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Is it reasonable to leave the notification of Lumkamakja in Ast-Flyland ? I don't think so. Makja means make, in the OLB it refers to professions like shipmakja, silmakja. I haven't yet met makja in names of places. This makja should be something like -macia.

OK, so 'makia' means 'make'.

'Lumka' is a Frisian girl's name.

So, according to you, 'Lumka-makia' means 'to make Lumka'??

Nah.

I think the writers of the OLB fooled us again, and have us set out on another wild gopose chase.

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The spelling of the city is "Emden", and yes, it sounds close to E-mude.

But look closely at the way it is written in the OLB: E - mude.. or... the "mouth of the river Ee".

There was a small river with the name Ee... and it's mouth lay near a city called Lemmer.

Well, that doesn't sound much like "Lumka-makia", right?

OK, so I checked for maybe an older name, and this is what they think Lemmer was called centuries ago: Lemmerbroek or Lammerbroek.

In het jaar 1165 geeft bisschop Godfried van Utrecht aan de Friezen van

Lammerbroek een stuk grond in het stroomgebied van de Tjonger. Die grond lag tussen de oude loop van de Linde en Kuinre. Het is zeer waarschijnlijk dat diezelfde Friezen - van Lammerhoek of Lemsterhoek - op verzoek van de abt van het St. Oduifusklooster in Staveren de loop van de Kromme Ee bij Tacozijl hebben verbeterd en als ter zake kundigen later het Lindegebied onder handen namen in opdracht van die abt, die in dienst was van de bisschop van Utrecht. Van dit bisdom was Kuinre als 't ware een kolonie.

De Kromme Ee was vroeger een belangrijke verbinding tussen de Middelzee en het meer Flevo.

http://www.friesarchiefnet.nl/index.php?view=article&id=78&option=com_content

http://www.spanvis.nl/Lemstersluis%20eertijds%20Lemsterzijl/index.htm

In English:

In the year 1165 Bishop Godfried (LOL) of Utrecht gave a piece of land to the Frisians of Lammerbroek in the basin (?) of the river Tjonger

And the "Kromme Ee" is "Crooked/Bent/Curved Ee" in English, and it was an important connection between the Middel Sea and the Flevo Lake (future IJsselmeer).

So the city at the mouth of the Ee ("E-mude") was called "Lammerbroek" or ""Lemmerbroek" long ago; nowadays it's called "Lemmer".

It was also near that other 'interesting' river: the Linde, and located in the socalled "Lindegebied" = Linden area = Lindenoorden, heh.

My guess? "Lumkamakia" was a nickname for a city.

And the "kamakia" part makes me think of something, despite the fact that the name is written in the OLB like this, "Lumka-makia".

+++++++

EDIT:

"Lumka" or "Lumke" is a Frisian girl's name.

"Makia"?

mak-ia 70 und häufiger?, mek-k-ia, mait-ia, meit-ia, afries., sw. V. (2): nhd.

machen, reparieren, bauen, festsetzen, gerichtlich entscheiden, freisprechen,

verurteilen, beschuldigen, verklagen, erklären, erweisen, unter etwas bringen,

pfänden; ne. make (V.), repair (V.), build (V.), decide, accuse (V.), declare; Vw.:

s. for-, *lÆk-, ðt-, wi-ther-; Hw.: s. mek; vgl. ae. macian, anfrk. makon, as. makon*,

ahd. mahhæn; Q.: R, B, E, H, W, F, S; E.: germ. *makæn, sw. V., machen, kneten;

idg. *ma-, V., kneten, drücken, streichen, machen, Pokorny 696; W.: nfries.

maaikjen, V., machen; L.: Hh 68b, Rh 914b

http://www.koeblergerhard.de/germanistischewoerterbuecher/altfriesischeswoerterbuch/afries-M.pdf

LOL, maybe someone had a problem with a Frisian girl named "Lumka". And why?

"Kamakia" is Greek for "Harpoon".

"My sweatheart, Lumka, the harpoon".

Lum-ka-kamakia.......

Btw: (damned if I can find it again, but I read somewhere that) Lemmer was once a city in Friesland where whalers lived (think "harpoon").

.

.

It's not elegant nor subtle to shoot a girls' heart with an harpoon.

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It's not elegant nor subtle to shoot a girls' heart with an harpoon.

No, and maybe it's the girl shooting with a 'harpoon'.

I remember someone calling an ex of mine a 'pit viper'.

I think I know what I'm talking about, lol.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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OK, so 'makia' means 'make'.

'Lumka' is a Frisian girl's name.

So, according to you, 'Lumka-makia' means 'to make Lumka'??

Nah.

I think the writers of the OLB fooled us again, and have us set out on another wild gopose chase.

This is not what I said. The name reminds me on Mei-lakkja (Medea, Medemblik.

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This is not what I said. The name reminds me on Mei-lakkja (Medea, Medemblik.

This is what you said: "It's not elegant nor subtle to shoot a girls' heart with an harpoon."

And this is what you said just before that:

"Is it reasonable to leave the notification of Lumkamakja in Ast-Flyland ? I don't think so. Makja means make, in the OLB it refers to professions like shipmakja, silmakja. I haven't yet met makja in names of places. This makja should be something like -macia."

.

Edited by Abramelin

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On this website you find fine maps of the Eems/Dollard area: http://ottoknot.home.xs4all.nl/dollard/index.html. I didn't find something close to Lumkamakja, but found the name Ee for rivers that joined to the Eems. Sure, the name Ee is a common name for water, river. The Lemster option is similarly interesting for Lum-/Lem- and because it is close to Grouw, where the Halbertsma's lived. See: http://www.tresoar.nl/vanderaa/Smallingerland.html for the different names of the Ee in Smallingerland.

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Minnathis was the name of the mothersummoned all the sailors and the young men from Oostflyland and Denmark. From this expedition the history of Wodin sprang, which is inscribed on the citadels, and is here copied. At Aldergamude there lived an old sea-king whose name was Sterik, and whose deeds were famous. This old fellow had three nephews. Wodin, the eldest, lived at Lumkamakia, near the Eemude, in Oostflyland, with his parents. He had once commanded troops. Teunis and Inka were naval warriors, and were just then staying with their father at Aldergamude. When the young warriors had assembled together, they chose Wodin to be their leader or king, and the naval force chose Teunis for their sea-king and Inka for their admiral. The navy then sailed to Denmark, where they took on board Wodin and his valiant host.

Seems like this Embden/Emden and the Ems River is the place I've read on other OLB sites sounds most logical.

In East Frisia, Oostflyland might have been the border of Denmark at the time, or Wodin may have lived at Lumkamakja but been in Denmark when they picked him up.

Edited by The Puzzler

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Minna—this was the name of the mother—summoned all the sailors and the young men from Oostflyland and Denmark. From this expedition the history of Wodin sprang, which is inscribed on the citadels, and is here copied. At Aldergamude there lived an old sea-king whose name was Sterik, and whose deeds were famous. This old fellow had three nephews. Wodin, the eldest, lived at Lumkamakia, near the Eemude, in Oostflyland, with his parents. He had once commanded troops. Teunis and Inka were naval warriors, and were just then staying with their father at Aldergamude. When the young warriors had assembled together, they chose Wodin to be their leader or king, and the naval force chose Teunis for their sea-king and Inka for their admiral. The navy then sailed to Denmark, where they took on board Wodin and his valiant host.

Seems like this Embden/Emden and the Ems River is the place I've read on other OLB sites sounds most logical.

In East Frisia, Oostflyland might have been the border of Denmark at the time, or Wodin may have lived at Lumkamakja but been in Denmark when they picked him up.

Everybody assumes that Oostflyland is east Friesland or OstFriesland (the German part), but we should not forget that centuries ago the Dutch island of Vlieland was connected with the present province of Friesland.

Presentday Vlieland is nothing but a small island, and also nothing but the remnant of a once much larger area, before the Wadden Sea came into existence. That ancient area included Vlieland, a large part of what's now the Wadden Sea and Friesland; the Vlie river flowed through it. This area itself (depending on how the Vlie flowed through it) may have been this Oost-Vlieland.

And there still is a village called Oostvlieland on the island of Vlieland.

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On this website you find fine maps of the Eems/Dollard area: http://ottoknot.home.xs4all.nl/dollard/index.html. I didn't find something close to Lumkamakja, but found the name Ee for rivers that joined to the Eems. Sure, the name Ee is a common name for water, river. The Lemster option is similarly interesting for Lum-/Lem- and because it is close to Grouw, where the Halbertsma's lived. See: http://www.tresoar.nl/vanderaa/Smallingerland.html for the different names of the Ee in Smallingerland.

I found another site with really huge and ancient (clickable) maps of that area:

http://www.heimatkundlicher-arbeitskreis.de/Verschiedenes/Dollartfluten/Dollartfluten.htm

Ee Stroom, Aa Stroom:

http://www.heimatkundlicher-arbeitskreis.de/Verschiedenes/Dollartfluten/Reiderland3.jpg

If we look at the situation near the mouth of the Eems at 800 BC, then things get quite different:

http://www.heimatkundlicher-arbeitskreis.de/Verschiedenes/Dollartfluten/Bant.jpg

This ancient mouth of the rivers Eems (the larger prehistoric island of Bant for instance) could havehad many villages that are now long gone.

http://www.heimatkundlicher-arbeitskreis.de/Verschiedenes/Dollartfluten/krtms-1735-grp-extra.jpg

Here another huge map of the surroundings of Emden city (by Ubbo Emmius):

http://www.heimatkundlicher-arbeitskreis.de/Verschiedenes/Dollartfluten/Emmius_Dollart_1616.jpg

But I have searched these maps for more than an hour by now, and found nothing even remotely similar to Lumka-makia.

==

Like I said just now to Puzzler, we all think Oostvlieland is (in) Oost Friesland or the German Ostfriesland, but we may be looking in the wrong place.

Btw, I found some explanations for Lumke and similar names:

Lymke afgeleid van Limme (Volk) >> Lymke, derived from Limme (people/folk)

Limke afgeleid van Limme (Volk) >> Limke, deribed from Limme (people/folk)

Lemke afgeleid van Lam (Bos) >>> Lemke, derived from Lam (woods/forest)

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Queen Wanda and the Curse of Wicholf

The geological history of Vlieland is closely connected to that of the whole northern Dutch coastal area. Once the island was a part of a coastal barrier that was formed in a period known as the Old-Holocene, which lasted from 20,000 till about 5,000 years BC. In this period, succeeding the last great ice age, sea level rose as a result of the melting arctic ice, and the Dutch lowlands were flooded every now and then. Finally the sea broke through the coastal barrier and formed a permanently inundated area, the present Wadden Sea. The remains of the coastal barrier now form the range of Wadden islands, extending from Den Helder in Holland to Esbjerg in Denmark.

Although this genesis does not really differ from that of the neighboring islands of Texel, Terschelling, Ameland and Schiermonnikoog, is does have something special. Like that old legend suggesting that is was not solely the violent forces of wind and water that caused Vlieland to become an island. It's the legend of Queen Wanda, who is supposed to have lived here in the late Middle Ages. A beautiful story that deserves to be told at this place.

It was about 1230 when Count William II of Holland granted the area of nowadays Vlieland, still forming part of the mainland at that time, to the monastery of Ludinga near Achlum, in the vicinity of the present town of Harlingen. In the following years the monks started digging a canal to the sea, primarily to improve the drainage of the land, but also to make their monastery accessible by ship from the sea. But at the place where the projected canal was to flow into the sea there lived, according to the legend, the pagan queen Wanda, together with her son Worp. She was the widow of Hessel of Wicholf the Saxon who once ruled this area, and she strongly opposed the digging of the canal right through here property, although Count William had granted the monks permission to do so.

The monk Bouwe, in charge with the supervision of the work, did not let himself be stopped by Wanda's resistance. Nor was he alarmed by a warning of the local Vlieland people about the 'Curse of Wicholf'. It was predicted that, when fratricide would occur twice in the Wicholf clan, the sea would flood Vlieland. A part of that prophecy was already fulfilled, as one of Wanda's sons named Hengst had killed his brother Horse in a quarrel.

Friar Bouwe didn't worry about that prophecy. After all, Wanda had only one son left as her fourth child, the eldest son Runo, had disappeared without a trace many years earlier at the age of three while he was playing on the ice, and never found back. So, how could another fratricide occur? In good spirits he went on with the work on.

On the day that the canal was almost finished and just one dune remained to be cut through, it came to an argument with Wanda's son Worp. It escalated to such an extend that Worp, provoked by his mother to take action against friar Bouwe and his canal, stabbed the monk to death with his knife, after which he fled home.

The abbot of the monastery who found friar Bouwe recognized the knife and shortly after Worp and his mother were fetched from their house and brought before the tribunal. When Wanda saw Bouwe's dead body she got the shock of her life, as under his habit the dead monk wore a string of shells like the one that she once had hung around the neck of her missing son Runo. When she asked where that string came from the abbot told her about a little boy that the monks had once rescued from an ice floe. They had taken the child to the monastery where he grew up and later he was admitted in the monastic order as Friar Bouwe. At that moment Wanda began screaming like mad: "Woe is me! The curse of Wicholf's house has come! The prophecy is fulfilled!".

The lawsuit was broken off. Worp entered the monastery as a penitent. And when shortly after the mouth of the canal had been dug and the first waves of the sea rolled into the land Wanda ran into the sea with her arms spread out, as in an attempt to stop the water, and disappeared forever.

The element of truth in this legend is the fact that there was an extensive flood in the year 1237 or 1314, when the sea broke through the dunes, Vlieland was cut off from Texel and became a separate island. The water poured into the land so far that even Harlingen became a coastal town. This flood may indeed be caused by a canal that was dug by the monks of Ludinga, the so-called 'Monnickesloot'. After these events, Vlieland appears in documents under the name 'Insula Fle' or 'the island on the Flevo stream', from which the present name of Vlieland may be derived.

On Vlieland there is only one small town named Oost-Vlieland, first mentioned in a protocol of 1245. But at that time there was a second town on the west point of the island, appropriately named West-Vlieland, which initially was of much greater importance. In the 17th century it had a population of over 3,000. Whale fishing was the main living and over 70 whaling commanders lived there. But nowadays nothing remains of West-Vlieland. The town suffered heavily from the drifting dune sands and the ceaseless attacks by the sea. After large floods in 1717 and 1727 the town was abandoned and finally it was completely swallowed by the sea. Oost-Vlieland, safely sheltered by the 40-meters high Vuurboetsduin (Beaconfire Dune) was since then the only town on the island.

The palmy days of Vlieland were between 1650 and 1750, coinciding with the Golden Age of Holland. During that period the Vlieland Roads were, like those of the neighboring island of Texel, a major meeting point for ships that sailed out from there to all quarters of the world. Also cargo from far-away countries was transferred here into smaller ships for further transport to Zuyder Zee ports where the bigger ships could not go. In the wake of mercantile shipping all kinds of industry settled in Oost-Vlieland like pilot services, ships repair and maintenance, equipment and provisioning and, of course, all the necessary conveniences for the ships' crews during their temporary stay on the island.

http://islas.ruudbijlsma.nl/vl_en.htm

+++++++++++++++++

As I have said long ago, I had the feeling the writers of the OLB gave several famous gods and persons a 'sex-change'.

Wanda \wa(n)-da\ as a girl's name is pronounced WAHN-dah. It is of Slavic origin, and the meaning of Wanda is "the tribe of the Vandals". The Vandals (or Wendlas) were an ancient Slavonic tribe whose destructive behavior led to the modern term "vandalism". Also possibly (Old German) "wanderer". Harpsichord player Wanda Landowska.

Wanda has 15 variant forms: Vanda, Wahnda, Wandah, Wandie, Wandis, Wandy, Wannda, Wenda, Wendaline, Wendall, Wendeline, Wendy, Wohnda, Wonda and Wonnda.

http://www.thinkbabynames.com/meaning/0/Wanda

The name is popularly interpreted as meaning "wanderer."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wanda

And what was one of the many known nicknames of Wodan/Odin? "The Wanderer".

You know, the OLB "Wodan" who lived on Oostvlieland with his parents? Only the Wanda of the legend lived on Westvlieland which is no more.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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