Abramelin Posted November 6, 2011 #7276 Share Posted November 6, 2011 (edited) Yes, you <skipped> it (Letter of Riek Mulder-Pomper, signed Santpoort, 7 Oct. 1965): Letter signed Santpoort, 7 Oct. 1965 from Riek Mulder-Pomper. (From 1917 she had shared house with the widow of a grandson of Cornelis I, Floris August Over de Linden (1863-ca.1910), who had lived in the house of his grandfather in the 1860-s) "... as a very little child he was brought to his grandfather. This grandfather must have been a very funny man, who was fooling everyone around and was always telling strange stories and said things that make you laugh. In one summer a few 'learned doctors from Leeuwarden', as the grandfather called them, came to visit, and took him out to go sailing. But there was a day, that the grandfather no longer joined, but was writing all day on big sheets of paper. He had fun, but never wanted to tell the little boy why. In the evening the 'learned doctors' came and grandfather would read to them what he had written during the day. Then they laughed loudly, and Floor had heard them shout: they'll be surprised and they'll never believe it! Years later, when he heard about the controversy around the book and had a good think about it, he went to his oldest brother Cor [= Cornelis III] (there was also a sister Brecht) and told him, that it was all nonsense, as he himself had seen Grandfather write the book [aged 5 or 6 years old!]. But Cor had become furious and had said, that he had no clue, that he should mind his own business, and keep his mouth shut, because after all the book said that they descended from kings! So he kept it for himself, he no longer could ask his grandfather, who had already passed away, and therefore he informed his wife about it. And Mrs. O.d.L. told me, probably because she thought, that at least someone should know. But first I had to solemnly promise her to never speak about it with anyone 'because of the sensitivity of the family'." Jensma: This note creates a difficulty though. Because the children arrived in Holland a long time after Verwijs had written the state officials and for more than one-and-a-half year had tried to introduce the manuscript into the world. One would say, that the witness report about Floris can therefore not be true. At second thought though another, much better explanation presents itself, namely that Over de Linden had not completely finished the manuscript in the beginning of 1869 and that the events that Floris remembered occurred not before the summer of 1869. [Footnote:] In his report [to state officials!!!] about the manuscript of 1867 Verwijs wrote, that it 'contains about 200 pages in 4, the last part of which apparently is missing though...'. The usual interpretation of this is obviously that the OLB ends at page 210 in the middle of a sentence which (indeed) suggests that part is missing. But one can also interpret it, that the last part was missing and therefore still had to be made or finished. Based on existing writings that still needed editing, he estimated the expected size of the book at 200 pages. OK, thanks Otharus, I must have overlooked that boy's name and Jensma's source. Still, from what you posted, I think it's possible this Floor could have been present when his grandfather was busy finishing the manuscript. And you'd be amazed what a 5 or 6 years old kid is able to register. And then you have his 'big brother' ordering him to shut up about it. I know all too well how that conversation must have went: I am the youngest of 4 brothers. Then this: "But first I had to solemnly promise her to never speak about it with anyone 'because of the sensitivity of the family'." . Edited November 6, 2011 by Abramelin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted November 6, 2011 #7277 Share Posted November 6, 2011 Firstly, I appreciate the effort you have taken to find the places in the area of Friesland. Some imo are very hard to work out as it really appears Atland is in India. At some point you have to decide if it's in India or Friesland, how can you reconcile the story sounding set in India to Friesland? It's easy to say, they just changed it but that's not really an answer, I think if you are right, there is some sort of code to follow to break to discover what each one means. The same as Libya/Lyda. I showed how Lyda and Libya could really mean the same thing - liber being also leud.. d to b change. Now I think this OLB is so clever it must have a fit, it's not all willy nilly. Somehow the Aldland explantion given in the book should fit an Aldland in Friesland if your above Aldlan is any thing to do with Aldland. I don't really doubt there could be an Aldland in Friesland and then an Aldland in from whence these Finda's people came in. It's how both can be one is the answer that's really needed. I don't think it necesarily even means Aldland is in the Himalayas. Sixteen hundred years ago (she writes, 593 B.C.), Atland was submerged; and at that time something happened which nobody had reckoned upon. In the heart of Findasland, upon a mountain, lies a plain called Kasamyr (Cashmere) that is “extraordinary.” Yes, the heart of Findasland sounds in India but also Finda's Lands starts from the other side of Twiskland. 'Abode of snow' is Himalaya in Sanskrit - which should really be the same meaning as Germanic etc since they are both IE languages. On one side we were bounded by Wr-alda’s Sea, on which no one but us might or could sail; on the other side we were hedged in by the broad Twiskland. (Tusschenland, Duitschland), through which the Finda people dared not come on account of the thick forests and the wild beasts. Finda's land starts on the other side of Twiskland. So I don't think it has to be in the heart of Findas Land, this Atland. There is no real reason to think from the words in the OLB that Aldland is in India, just because that's the heart of it. The Magyar and Finns would not imo need to have come from India. I thought of Aland long ago, maybe. A Frisian area that I keep getting coming up in Google when I'm typing Aldland is Uthlande or the Outlands in North Schleswig coast, http://books.google.com.au/books?id=1ks8AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA77&lpg=PA77&dq=outland+friesland&source=bl&ots=ndG25WKHuI&sig=yhAOAok8bmR4EnrBWo9ikn5DEpk&hl=en&ei=8Fa2To7cAvCSiAfktaWOAg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q&f=false Where they found those Cretan Bronze Age finds. From what the OLB tells us: the Finda in/near the Punjab said they came from that area, that it was their place of origin, so Aldland must have also been in that area for the OLB also tells us that the Finda (and no one else) lived on/in and came from Aldland. You ask me to make up my mind about where this Aldland could be located, but that is not the point (not mine anyway). It's about what inspired the creators of the OLB. See my former post about "Amerika": I could make up a nice story about my adventures with the 'natives' in Amerika, and half the world would think I am talking about Native Americans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted November 6, 2011 #7278 Share Posted November 6, 2011 (edited) From what the OLB tells us: the Finda in/near the Punjab said they came from that area, that it was their place of origin, What does this mean, quote the OLB please. I don't think the Magyar and 'Finns' who came in have to come from the 'heart of Finda's Land'. Finda's Lands started just beyond the Twiskland. Otharus, what do you make of it? Edited November 6, 2011 by The Puzzler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted November 6, 2011 #7279 Share Posted November 6, 2011 (edited) What does this mean, quote the OLB please. I don't think the Magyar and 'Finns' who came in have to come from the 'heart of Finda's Land'. Finda's Lands started just beyond the Twiskland. Otharus, what do you make of it? Punjab, that is five rivers, and by which we travel, is a river of extraordinary beauty, and is called Five Rivers, because four other streams flow into the sea by its mouth. Far away to the eastward is another large river, the Holy or Sacred Ganges. Between these two rivers is the land of the Hindoos. Both rivers run from the high mountains to the plains. The mountains in which their sources lie are so high that they reach the heavens (laia), and therefore these mountains are called Himmellaia. Among the Hindoos and others out of these countries there are people who meet together secretly. They believe that they are pure children of Finda, and that Finda was born in the Himmellaia mountains, whence she went with her children to the lowlands. Some of them believe that she, with her children, floated down upon the foam of the Ganges, and that that is the reason why the river is called the Sacred Ganges. But the priests, who came from another country, traced out these people and had them burnt, so that they do not dare to declare openly their creed. http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/ == I think this is another trick with words: Finda > Findi > Phindi > Hindi. . Edited November 6, 2011 by Abramelin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted November 6, 2011 #7280 Share Posted November 6, 2011 Punjab, that is five rivers, and by which we travel, is a river of extraordinary beauty, and is called Five Rivers, because four other streams flow into the sea by its mouth. Far away to the eastward is another large river, the Holy or Sacred Ganges. Between these two rivers is the land of the Hindoos. Both rivers run from the high mountains to the plains. The mountains in which their sources lie are so high that they reach the heavens (laia), and therefore these mountains are called Himmellaia. Among the Hindoos and others out of these countries there are people who meet together secretly. They believe that they are pure children of Finda, and that Finda was born in the Himmellaia mountains, whence she went with her children to the lowlands. Some of them believe that she, with her children, floated down upon the foam of the Ganges, and that that is the reason why the river is called the Sacred Ganges. But the priests, who came from another country, traced out these people and had them burnt, so that they do not dare to declare openly their creed. http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/ Yes, OK, Finda is yellow and from Asia - that is HER core, but where does it say anywhere the people who came in, these Magyar and Finns came from there? Even if they were from Finda's Land/Lands, that starts just beyond the Twiskland. You could say, we are meant to believe that Inka, on his way to find Aldland, went West and arrived in America, accounting for the Inca's name... But based on the words in the OLB, what really tells us that Aldland, Atland is in the Himalayas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted November 6, 2011 #7281 Share Posted November 6, 2011 But the priests, who came from another country, The priests, who came from another country, this to me, actually says the Magyar priests did not come from this country, that being, the heart of Finda's Land, land of the Hindoos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted November 6, 2011 #7282 Share Posted November 6, 2011 (edited) Yes, OK, Finda is yellow and from Asia - that is HER core, but where does it say anywhere the people who came in, these Magyar and Finns came from there? Even if they were from Finda's Land/Lands, that starts just beyond the Twiskland. You could say, we are meant to believe that Inka, on his way to find Aldland, went West and arrived in America, accounting for the Inca's name... But based on the words in the OLB, what really tells us that Aldland, Atland is in the Himalayas? In êra tyda hêmadon Findas folk mêst algadur invr hjara moders baerta-lând, mit nôma ald-lând that nw vnder-ne sê lêith; hja wêron thus fêr-of, thêrvmbe nêdon wi âk nên orloch In eerdere tijden woonde Finda's volk meest altegader in hare moeders (ge)boorte-land, met name Ald-Land dat nu onder-de zee leit; zij waren dus ver-af, daarom waren we ook niet genoodzaakt oorlog te voeren (or: - daarom noden wij ook niet-een oorlog -). In early times almost all the Findas lived together in their native land, which was called Aldland, and is now submerged. They were thus far away, and we had no need for wars. The Hindi/Phindi/Finda tell us they came from the Himalaya, that Finda was 'born' there. 1+1=2, or Aldland must have been near the Himalayas. = Inka went west, like Columbus went west, to find the Old Land = Asia. . Edited November 6, 2011 by Abramelin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted November 6, 2011 #7283 Share Posted November 6, 2011 But the priests, who came from another country, The priests, who came from another country, this to me, actually says the Magyar priests did not come from this country, that being, the heart of Finda's Land, land of the Hindoos. Not only Magyar, but also Magi. Persia? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted November 6, 2011 #7284 Share Posted November 6, 2011 Puzz, did you read this blog (=mine): Jensma: In the nineteenth century it was common knowledge (and still is up to date) that the Finnish and Hungarian (Magyar) languages are linguistically cognate, and so at first sight these names can be read historically. Similarly, one can read the name of the `Magí' as an historical allusion to the well-known caste of Zoroastrian Persian priests. The combination of these names though is geographically as well as chronologically completely incoherent. Their interpretation as topical allusions to `magic' and to the supra-naturalism of religious orthodoxy yields a much more consistent understanding that does away with much of the labyrinthine and incoherent character which imposes itself on a first reading. http://www.oeralinda.blogspot.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted November 6, 2011 #7285 Share Posted November 6, 2011 In êra tyda hêmadon Findas folk mêst algadur invr hjara moders baerta-lând, mit nôma ald-lând that nw vnder-ne sê lêith; hja wêron thus fêr-of, thêrvmbe nêdon wi âk nên orloch. In eerdere tijden woonde Finda's volk meest altegader in hare moeders (ge)boorte-land, met name Ald-Land dat nu onder-de zee leit; zij waren dus ver-af, daarom waren we ook niet genoodzaakt oorlog te voeren In early times almost all the Findas lived together in their native land, which was called Aldland, and is now submerged. They were thus far away, and we had no need for wars. The Hindi/Phindi/Finda tell us they came from the Himalaya, that Finda was 'born' there. 1+1=2, or Aldland must have been near the Himalayas. = Inka went west, like Columbus went west, to find the Old Land = Asia. . Hmm yes, it does seem that it was there. Finda's native land - aldland - now submerged, far away... Maybe around Kashmir, which is mentioned. The word Kashmir is an ancient Sanskrit word which literally means Land of Kashyap Rishi. Kashyap Rishi was a Saraswat Brahmin and one of the Saptarshis, who was key in formalizing the ancient Historical Vedic Religion. The Kashmiri Pandits are his descendants and have named the valley after him, in his honour. According to the "Nilmat Puran," the oldest book on Kashmir, in the Satisar, a former lake in the Kashmir Valley meaning "lake of the Goddess Sati,"[3] lived a demon called Jalodbhava (meaning "born of water"), who tortured and devoured the people, who lived near mountain slopes.[4] Hearing the suffering of the people, Kashyap, a Saraswat Brahmin, came to the rescue of the people that lived there.[4] After performing penance for a long time, the saint was blessed, and therefore Lord Vishnu assumed the form of a boar and struck the mountain at Varahamula, boring an opening in it for the water to flow out into the plains below.[5] The lake was drained, the land appeared, and the demon was killed.[4] The saint encouraged people from India to settle in the valley.[4] As a result of the hero's actions, the people named the valley as "Kashyap-Mar", meaning abode of Kashyap, and "Kashyap-Pura", meaning city of Kashyap, in Sanskrit.[4] The name "Kashmir," in Sanskrit, implies land desiccated from water: "ka" (the water) and shimeera (to desiccate).[4] The ancient Greeks began referring to the region as "Kasperia" and the Chinese pilgrim Hien-Tsang who visited the valley around 631 AD. called it "KaShi-Mi-Lo" 迦濕彌羅.[4] In modern times the people of Kashmir have shortened the full Sanskrit name into "Kasheer," which is the colloquial Koshur name of the valley, as noted in Aurel Stein's introduction to the Rajatarangini metrical chronicle. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashmir A lake used to be in the valley and the name means to desicate, like dry out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted November 6, 2011 #7286 Share Posted November 6, 2011 Hmm yes, it does seem that it was there. Finda's native land - aldland - now submerged, far away... Maybe around Kashmir, which is mentioned. The word Kashmir is an ancient Sanskrit word which literally means Land of Kashyap Rishi. Kashyap Rishi was a Saraswat Brahmin and one of the Saptarshis, who was key in formalizing the ancient Historical Vedic Religion. The Kashmiri Pandits are his descendants and have named the valley after him, in his honour. According to the "Nilmat Puran," the oldest book on Kashmir, in the Satisar, a former lake in the Kashmir Valley meaning "lake of the Goddess Sati,"[3] lived a demon called Jalodbhava (meaning "born of water"), who tortured and devoured the people, who lived near mountain slopes.[4] Hearing the suffering of the people, Kashyap, a Saraswat Brahmin, came to the rescue of the people that lived there.[4] After performing penance for a long time, the saint was blessed, and therefore Lord Vishnu assumed the form of a boar and struck the mountain at Varahamula, boring an opening in it for the water to flow out into the plains below.[5] The lake was drained, the land appeared, and the demon was killed.[4] The saint encouraged people from India to settle in the valley.[4] As a result of the hero's actions, the people named the valley as "Kashyap-Mar", meaning abode of Kashyap, and "Kashyap-Pura", meaning city of Kashyap, in Sanskrit.[4] The name "Kashmir," in Sanskrit, implies land desiccated from water: "ka" (the water) and shimeera (to desiccate).[4] The ancient Greeks began referring to the region as "Kasperia" and the Chinese pilgrim Hien-Tsang who visited the valley around 631 AD. called it "KaShi-Mi-Lo" 迦濕彌羅.[4] In modern times the people of Kashmir have shortened the full Sanskrit name into "Kasheer," which is the colloquial Koshur name of the valley, as noted in Aurel Stein's introduction to the Rajatarangini metrical chronicle. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashmir A lake used to be in the valley and the name means to desicate, like dry out. We appear to be turning in circles here, lol. I have explained early on where some in the 19th century thought Eden or Pradise was located: near/in the Punjab/Pamir/Tarim. I also posted a map that showed that - according to people studying the Bible in the 19th century - the flood occurred in the Tarim basin, and flushed the land west/ south-west. And the date was 2345 BC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otharus Posted November 6, 2011 #7287 Share Posted November 6, 2011 (edited) "NOCHT": a NAUGHTY word in the OLB? An example of subtle censorship by translators The OLB has four different uses of the word. The following translations are listed: Ottema and Sandbach (1872/1876), Jensma (2006) and De Heer (2008) ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ I) Literally, with translations like: nut, corn, fruit, crop, grain Dutch: noot (plur.: noten) German: Nuss Danish: nød Swedish: nöt Norwegian: nøtt Icelandic: hneta French: noix Spanish: nuez Portuguese: noz Italian: noce Latin: nux Fragments in OLB and their translations: [047/09] ANDA BÁMA ÀND TRÉJON WAXTON FRÜGzDA ÁND NOCHTA THÉR NW VRLÉREN SEND [O+S p.67] Ottema, De Heer: "vruchten en ooft"; Jensma: "vruchten en genoten" Sandbach: "fruits" [136/04] JRTHA HETH HJARA BLOD DRUNKEN. MITH THÀT BLOD FODE HJU FRÜCHDA ÀND NOCHTA [O+S p.185] Ottema: "vruchten en koorn"; Jensma: "vruchten en noten"; De Heer: "vruchten en planten (genoegen)" Sandbach: "corn and fruits" [167/11] THÉR BLOJATH ÀND WAXATH THA SELVA FRUCHTA ÀND NOCHTA AS AN THA ÁST.SIDE [O+S p.225] Ottema: "vruchten en granen"; Jensma: "vruchten en genoten"; De Heer: "vruchten en noten" Sandbach: "fruits and crops" [167/29] BY VS WERTHAT NOCHTA FONDEN LIK BERN HÁVEDA SA GRÁT [O+S p.227] Ottema, Jensma, De Heer: "noten" Sandbach: "nuts" [189/15] JRTHA WARTH BIHWÍLA ÁK AL.FÉDSTRE HÉTEN. THRVCHDAM HJU ALLE FRÜCHD ÀND NOCHTA BÉRTH [O+S p.229] Ottema: "vruchten en granen"; Jensma: "vruchten en noten"; De Heer: "vruchten en genoegen" Sandbach: "fruits and grains" [189/19] NE SKOLDE HJU NÉNE FRÜCHD NER NOCHT NAVT NE BÉRA BÍDAM WRALDA HJA NÉNE KREFTA NE JÉF [O+S p.229] Ottema: "geene vruchten en granen"; Jensma: "geen vruchten en noten"; De Heer: "geen vruchten noch genoegen" Sandbach: "not any fruit or grain" In all above cases NOCHT/NOCHTA can simply be translated as noot/noten (nut/nuts). ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ II) Metaphorically, with translations like: pleasure, delight, diversion, cheerfulness, happiness, satisfaction Dutch (related words): genot, geneugte, genoegen, genieting, neiging, neut, neuk German: Genuss, Vergnügen Danish: fornøjelse Swedish: njutning Finnish: nautinto Icelandic: ánægja [006/29] RING AS HJA RIP WÉRON KRÉJON HJA FRÜCHDA ÀND NOCHTA ANDA DRÁMA [O+S p.13] Ottema: "vermaak en genoegen"; Jensma: "vreugde en genoten"; De Heer: "vreugde en genoegen" Sandbach: "pleasure and delight" [008/27] SACH HJU HJRA BÀRN EN FRYA.S VRMORDE SÁ SWOL HJRA BOSM FON NOCHT [O+S p.15] Ottema, Jensma, De Heer: "genoegen" Sandbach: "pleasure" [092/10] HJU WILDE RÉDER ENNEN BOSTA HA MITH ALL JOI ÀND NOCHTA THÉR ER ANEBONDEN SEND [O+S p.129] Ottema: "vreugde en genoegens"; Jensma: "vreugde en plezier"; De Heer: "vreugde en genoegen" Sandbach just left this out! (joy and pleasure) [093/22] NINMAN NÉDE DIGER THAN TO ÁKANE SINA NOCHT [O+S p.131] Ottema: "vermaak"; Jensma, De Heer: "plezier" Sandbach: "diversion" [093/28] NOCHT RUNDE WÉI. THA WÁKENDOM NILDE NAVT NE KÉRA [O+S p.131] Ottema: "vermaak"; Jensma: "plezier"; De Heer: "genoegen" Sandbach: "Cheerfulness" [094/06] THAHWILA THÉR ALREK IN NOCHT BÁJADE WAS VRRÉD LÁND [O+S p.131] Ottema, De Heer: "in vreugde baadde"; Jensma: "in Plezier baadde" Sandbach: "was intoxicated with pleasure" [137/32] THA MÀNNISKA [...] SA FÉLO NOCHT TO JÁN. AS TO BI NÁKA IS [O+S p.187] Ottema, De Heer: "genoegen te geven"; Jensma: "plezier te geven" Sandbach: "make happy" [139/11] IN SIN KÉNINGKRIK [...] HWÉR FRÜ IS ÀND NOCHTA SEND [O+S p.189] Ottema, De Heer: "vreugde en genietingen"; Jensma: "vreugde en genot" Sandbach: "joy and happiness" [139/20] THÀT THÉRA THÉR HÍR VP IRTHA THÀT MÁSTE LÉDEN HÉDE. NÉIMELS THA MÁSTA NOCHTA HÀVA SKOLDE [O+S p.189] Ottema, De Heer: "vreugde"; Jensma: "plezieren" Sandbach: "happiness" [149/18] HO FRISO ALLE TO BIDOBBE WISTE TO NOCHT FON BÉDE PARTJA [O+S p.203] Ottema, Jensma, De Heer: "tot genoegen" Sandbach: "to the satisfaction" [153/28] THÉR FON HÉDON THA WIVA NOCHT. THA FÁMNA NOCHT. THA MANGÉRTNE NOCHT. ÀND THÉROF HÉDON AL HJARA MÉGUM NOCHT [O+S p.207] Ottema: "hadden genoegen"; Jensma, De Heer: "hadden plezier" Sandbach: "were pleased" [162/17] THA HÉINDE AND FÉRHÉMANDE SENDA.BODON HÉDON NOCHT FON VR THÀT SKRIFT [O+S p.219] Ottema: "hadden genoegen van"; Jensma: "hadden plezier over"; De Heer: "hadden voldoening van" Sandbach: "were pleased with" In all above cases NOCHT/NOCHTA can simply be translated as genot/genietingen or geneugte(n). The Dutch words "genot" and "geneugte" associate more with (physical) pleasure, while the words "plezier" and "vermaak" are more about (innocent) fun. The difference is subtle, but it explains why the translators (in many cases) avoid a more litteral translation. ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ III) Derived from metaphor (I don't know a term for this), translated as: enough Dutch: genoeg (note: "nokken" = slang for to stop/ quit) German: genug Danish, Norwegian: nok Icelandic: nóg [057/16] INKA SÉIDE THAT.I SIN NOCHT HÉDE FON AL.ET FINDA.S.FOLK [O+S p.81] Ottema, Jensma: "zijn bekomst had van"; De Heer: "genoeg had van" Sandbach: "had enough of" [063/18] AS HJU THÉR HJRA NOCHT FON HÉDE WERPTE HJU HJRA SELVA ANDA ÀRMA THÉRA GOLUM [O+S p.89] Ottema, Jensma: "haar bekomst van had"; De Heer: "haar genoegen van had" Sandbach: "had enough of" This beautifully shows where the expression comes from. I would prefer the translations by De Heer. ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ IV) As a personal name (not to be translated) [133/32] KONE.RÉD ALSA HÉT MIN FORMA [...] ÀND THA JONGESTE NOCHT [O+S p.183] Ottema, Sandbach, De Heer: "Nocht"; Jensma: "Plezier" What to say? It's typical for Jensma to interpret instead of translate... Edited November 6, 2011 by Otharus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otharus Posted November 6, 2011 #7288 Share Posted November 6, 2011 "NOCHT": a NAUGHTY word in the OLB? I will later add the fragments with NOCH, ENOCH and ÉNOCH as they are obviously related too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otharus Posted November 6, 2011 #7289 Share Posted November 6, 2011 (edited) There was no "Middle Sea" in the big world, there was only a Middle Sea in the province of Friesland. And you will only find a 'Mittelsee' in either Germany or maybe Switserland. You are contradicting yourself: everytime I tell you the Jews named the Med Middle Sea after the medieval German (in Latin) name for that sea. Edited November 6, 2011 by Otharus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otharus Posted November 6, 2011 #7290 Share Posted November 6, 2011 Still, from what you posted, I think it's possible this Floor could have been present when his grandfather was busy finishing the manuscript. I think you ignored this: "This note creates a difficulty though. Because the children arrived in Holland a long time after Verwijs had written the state officials and for more than one-and-a-half year had tried to introduce the manuscript into the world." "In his report [to state officials!!!] about the manuscript of 1867 Verwijs wrote, that it 'contains about 200 pages in 4, the last part of which apparently is missing though...'." And don't forget it's a 'witness report' out of the 3rd hand, written down a century after it was supposed to have happened... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted November 6, 2011 #7291 Share Posted November 6, 2011 (edited) We appear to be turning in circles here, lol. I have explained early on where some in the 19th century thought Eden or Pradise was located: near/in the Punjab/Pamir/Tarim. I also posted a map that showed that - according to people studying the Bible in the 19th century - the flood occurred in the Tarim basin, and flushed the land west/ south-west. And the date was 2345 BC. So where did these priests come from I wonder, if they were not from the country of the Hindoos - which were the Findas people. Agreed the priests might have been a Magi/Magyar from Iran. Of the Medes group. Coming mythologically from Medea, it makes sense they were sorcerers. But I'd think it was fire and Sun they worshipped and bought in. The Magi of the Medes were probably also running the show in Egypt. [They were not wild people, like most of Findas race; but, like the Egyptians, they have priests and also statues in their churches. The priests are the only rulers; they call themselves Magyars, and their headman Magy. He is high priest and king in one. The rest of the people are of no account, and in subjection to them. This people have not even a name; but we call them Finns, because although all the festivals are melancholy and bloody, they are so formal that we are inferior to them in that respect. But still they are not to be envied, because they are slaves to their priests, and still more to their creeds. They believe that evil spirits abound everywhere, and enter into men and beasts, but of Wr-aldas spirit they know nothing. They have weapons of stone, the Magyars of copper. Words of Median origin include: *čiθra-: "origin".[34] The word appears in *čiθrabṛzana- (med.) "exalting his linage", *čiθramiθra- (med.) "having mithraic origin", *čiθraspāta- (med.) "having a brilliant army", etc.[35] Farnah: Divine glory; (Avestan: khvarənah) Paridaiza: Paradise, (as in Pardis پردیس) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medes The Median Magi's used the word Paradise - it means garden or walled enclosure first and foremost. Old Persian Mada (Medes) imo is Mother. ie; Medea. The word "paradise" entered English from the French paradis, inherited from the Latin paradisus, from Greek parádeisos (παράδεισος), and ultimately from an Old Iranian root, attested in Avestan as pairi.daêza-.[1] The literal meaning of this Eastern Old Iranian language word is "walled (enclosure)",[1] from pairi- "around" + -diz "to create, make". The word is not attested in other Old Iranian languages (these may however be hypothetically reconstructed, for example as Old Persian *paridayda-). By the 6th/5th century BCE, the Old Iranian word had been adopted as Akkadian pardesu and Elamite partetas "domain". It subsequently came to indicate walled estates, especially the carefully tended royal parks and menageries. The term eventually appeared in Greek as ho parádeisos "park for animals" in the Anabasis of the early 4th century BCE Athenian gentleman-scholar Xenophon. Aramaic pardaysa similarly reflects "royal park". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradise The priests could have been telling the story of the actual Finda Aldlanders, who lived in a garden of Paradise, enclosed by the rivers, they got flooded out, the priests told them they had been naughty and manipulated them to do what they said. Edited November 6, 2011 by The Puzzler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted November 6, 2011 #7292 Share Posted November 6, 2011 (edited) You are contradicting yourself: OK, the German 'Middle Sea' (latin: Mediterranea) came into existence many ages after the Fryans are supposed to have given a sea that name. Then most peoples took over that name or a translation of that name into their own language The Romans called the Med "Mare Nostrum", or 'our sea'. The Frisian Middle Sea wasn't always called that way; it used to be called Boorne, Bornediep, and so on (as you can see on that map I posted, the map made by Schotanus. If there was any 'Middle Sea' anywhere on this globe, it was a rather recent (= medieval) invention. . Edited November 6, 2011 by Abramelin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted November 6, 2011 #7293 Share Posted November 6, 2011 So where did these priests come from I wonder, if they were not from the country of the Hindoos - which were the Findas people. Agreed the priests might have been a Magi/Magyar from Iran. Of the Medes group. Coming mythologically from Medea, it makes sense they were sorcerers. But I'd think it was fire and Sun they worshipped and bought in. The Magi of the Medes were probably also running the show in Egypt. [They were not wild people, like most of Finda’s race; but, like the Egyptians, they have priests and also statues in their churches. The priests are the only rulers; they call themselves Magyars, and their headman Magy. He is high priest and king in one. The rest of the people are of no account, and in subjection to them. This people have not even a name; but we call them Finns, because although all the festivals are melancholy and bloody, they are so formal that we are inferior to them in that respect. But still they are not to be envied, because they are slaves to their priests, and still more to their creeds. They believe that evil spirits abound everywhere, and enter into men and beasts, but of Wr-alda’s spirit they know nothing. They have weapons of stone, the Magyars of copper. Words of Median origin include: *čiθra-: "origin".[34] The word appears in *čiθrabṛzana- (med.) "exalting his linage", *čiθramiθra- (med.) "having mithraic origin", *čiθraspāta- (med.) "having a brilliant army", etc.[35] Farnah: Divine glory; (Avestan: khvarənah) Paridaiza: Paradise, (as in Pardis پردیس) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medes The Median Magi's used the word Paradise - it means garden or walled enclosure first and foremost. Old Persian Mada (Medes) imo is Mother. ie; Medea. The word "paradise" entered English from the French paradis, inherited from the Latin paradisus, from Greek parádeisos (παράδεισος), and ultimately from an Old Iranian root, attested in Avestan as pairi.daêza-.[1] The literal meaning of this Eastern Old Iranian language word is "walled (enclosure)",[1] from pairi- "around" + -diz "to create, make". The word is not attested in other Old Iranian languages (these may however be hypothetically reconstructed, for example as Old Persian *paridayda-). By the 6th/5th century BCE, the Old Iranian word had been adopted as Akkadian pardesu and Elamite partetas "domain". It subsequently came to indicate walled estates, especially the carefully tended royal parks and menageries. The term eventually appeared in Greek as ho parádeisos "park for animals" in the Anabasis of the early 4th century BCE Athenian gentleman-scholar Xenophon. Aramaic pardaysa similarly reflects "royal park". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradise The priests could have been telling the story of the actual Finda Aldlanders, who lived in a garden of Paradise, enclosed by the rivers, they got flooded out, the priests told them they had been naughty and manipulated them to do what they said. You wonder... Again: Jensma: In the nineteenth century it was common knowledge (and still is up to date) that the Finnish and Hungarian (Magyar) languages are linguistically cognate, and so at first sight these names can be read historically. Similarly, one can read the name of the `Magí' as an historical allusion to the well-known caste of Zoroastrian Persian priests. The combination of these names though is geographically as well as chronologically completely incoherent. Their interpretation as topical allusions to `magic' and to the supra-naturalism of religious orthodoxy yields a much more consistent understanding that does away with much of the labyrinthine and incoherent character which imposes itself on a first reading. http://www.oeralinda.blogspot.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otharus Posted November 6, 2011 #7294 Share Posted November 6, 2011 OK, the German 'Middle Sea' (latin: Mediterranea) came into existence many ages after the Fryans are supposed to have given a sea that name. With "came into existence" you probably mean: "is mentioned on the oldest known source". We don't know if the name existed earlier. Sometimes a new source is found that changes generally accepted theories. Our current theories are based on known and accepted sources. A new theory that challenges the existing mainstream ones, is "alternative" untill it is accepted. OLB is not a well known alternative source yet, and certainly not explained and understood properly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted November 6, 2011 #7295 Share Posted November 6, 2011 With "came into existence" you probably mean: "is mentioned on the oldest known source". We don't know if the name existed earlier. Sometimes a new source is found that changes generally accepted theories. Our current theories are based on known and accepted sources. A new theory that challenges the existing mainstream ones, is "alternative" untill it is accepted. OLB is not a well known alternative source yet, and certainly not explained and understood properly. Not trying to talk you down or anyone here (I do hate it when people do that). But there are times I think you all should drink booze. I know Puzz once admitted she was 'tipsy' when posting late at (her Australian) night, and so I understand her, but I just don't agree with her that often, lol. Booze opens up alleys you would never have dreamt of when sober. I don't like to say this to you, but booze helps. You will feel free to think of things you never ever felt the freedom to think of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted November 6, 2011 #7296 Share Posted November 6, 2011 (edited) Not trying to talk you down or anyone here (I do hate it when people do that). But there are times I think you all should drink booze. I know Puzz once admitted she was 'tipsy' when posting late at (her Australian) night, and so I understand her, but I just don't agree with her that often, lol. Booze opens up alleys you would never have dreamt of when sober. I don't like to say this to you, but booze helps. You will feel free to think of things you never ever felt the freedom to think of. Say what you think, don't say what you think you should say. I really hate political correctness. I prefer a hit at the jaw before any sarcastic, clever or nasty remark. I prefer rude honesty, I hate people trying to be (politically) polite. Honesty always rules at the end, even though the way the honesty is being expressed is not nice. Edited November 6, 2011 by Abramelin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted November 6, 2011 #7297 Share Posted November 6, 2011 (edited) Sorrry I am a bit off now. + Don't ban me , pls. . Edited November 6, 2011 by Abramelin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badeskov Posted November 6, 2011 #7298 Share Posted November 6, 2011 Sorrry I am a bit off now. + Don't ban me , pls. . Frankly, why should you be banned?! Honesty can be brutal in all it's nakedness. I serve as a reviewer for a couple of scientific peer reviewed journals and, trust me, that is brutally honest. If I wrote similarly here I probably would be banned. Cheers, Badeskov Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted November 6, 2011 #7299 Share Posted November 6, 2011 I think the term given to the Finns in the OLB comes from this word: finicky - a word we use. It can mean fussy or picky, here's the real meaning: finicky [ˈfɪnɪkɪ], finicking adj 1. excessively particular, as in tastes or standards; fussy 2. full of trivial detail; overelaborate http://www.thefreedictionary.com/finicky That describes exactly how their festivals were, completely overdone, over-elaborate and excessively particular. The closest word that might be it in the Frisian Dictionary is this one: finnich (bad/measly) fi-n-n-ich 1 und häufiger?, afries., Adj.: nhd. »finnig«, schlecht; ne. measly, bad (Adj.); Hw.: vgl. mnd. finnich; E.: s. germ. *finnæ, st. F. (æ), Flosse, Finne (F.) (2), Auswuchs; idg. *spÁinõ, *pÁina-, F., Spitze, Pokorny 981; vgl. idg. *spÁi- (1), *pÁi-, *spÂ-, *pÂ-, Adj., Sb., spitz, Spitze, Pokorny 981; s. afries. *-ich; L.: Hh 138a, Hh 184 http://www.koeblergerhard.de/germanistischewoerterbuecher/altfriesischeswoerterbuch/afries-F.pdf Does this word (finnich) give a meaning like the English one(finicky) in different terms than bad, measly, could it be used in the above way, finicky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted November 6, 2011 #7300 Share Posted November 6, 2011 I think the term given to the Finns in the OLB comes from this word: finicky - a word we use. It can mean fussy or picky, here's the real meaning: finicky [ˈfɪnɪkɪ], finicking adj 1. excessively particular, as in tastes or standards; fussy 2. full of trivial detail; overelaborate http://www.thefreedictionary.com/finicky That describes exactly how their festivals were, completely overdone, over-elaborate and excessively particular. The closest word that might be it in the Frisian Dictionary is this one: finnich (bad/measly) fi-n-n-ich 1 und häufiger?, afries., Adj.: nhd. »finnig«, schlecht; ne. measly, bad (Adj.); Hw.: vgl. mnd. finnich; E.: s. germ. *finnæ, st. F. (æ), Flosse, Finne (F.) (2), Auswuchs; idg. *spÁinõ, *pÁina-, F., Spitze, Pokorny 981; vgl. idg. *spÁi- (1), *pÁi-, *spÂ-, *pÂ-, Adj., Sb., spitz, Spitze, Pokorny 981; s. afries. *-ich; L.: Hh 138a, Hh 184 http://www.koeblergerhard.de/germanistischewoerterbuecher/altfriesischeswoerterbuch/afries-F.pdf Does this word (finnich) give a meaning like the English one(finicky) in different terms than bad, measly, could it be used in the above way, finicky. You never bothered to read what Jensma had to say, right? You just ramble along, and dont give a flying fk about some professor who had an educated meaning about al this. You simply ignore, and ............. Whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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