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Riaan

[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood

11,638 posts in this topic

2345 B.C. - Eco-disaster focused in the Levant as shown in tree-rings. End of Egyptian Old Dynasty?

The French archaeologist, Marie-Agnes Courty, presented a paper at the Society for Inter-Disciplinary Studies' July 1997 conference at Cambridge University, in which she first detailed the findings of excavations at a site in northern Syria, at Tell Leilan. This was the first time ever that an archaeological excavation had been initiated where the main purpose was to examine the stratigraphical record of the area with a view to searching for evidence of 'scorched earth' due to a suspected episode of extra-terrestrial 'fireball bombardment'.

She and her team found much evidence of microscopic glass spherules typical of melted sand and rock which is caused by the intense heat resulting from an asteroid impact or air-burst. She recommended further excavations there and at other sites. It would make sense that attention should be focussed on sites once occupied at dates where the tree-ring chronologies show evidence of abrupt climate changes - as at Tell Leilan in northern Syria, where the 'burn event' has now been dated by Courty as immediately prior to 2345 BC, a 'narrowest tree-ring' date.

Another with no human fatality numbers included in the calculations.

Scientists have found the first evidence that a devastating meteor impact in the Middle East might have triggered the mysterious collapse of civilisations more than 4,000 years ago.

Studies of satellite images of southern Iraq have revealed a two-mile- wide circular depression which scientists say bears all the hallmarks of an impact crater. If confirmed, it would point to the Middle East being struck by a meteor with the violence equivalent to hundreds of nuclear bombs. Today's crater lies on what would have been shallow sea 4,000 years ago, and any impact would have caused devastating fires and flooding. The catastrophic effect of these could explain the mystery of why so many early cultures went into sudden decline around 2300 BC. - The crater's faint outline was found by Dr Sharad Master, a geologist at the University of Witwatersrand, Johannesburg, on satellite images of the Al 'Amarah region, about 10 miles north-west of the confluence of the Tigris and Euphrates and home of the Marsh Arabs. (Robert Matthews Science Correspondent, The Telegraph - London 11-4-1)

http://www.sott.net/articles/show/151954-Meteorites-Asteroids-and-Comets-Damages-Disasters-Injuries-Deaths-and-Very-Close-Calls

God does send fire and brimstone onto Sodom and Gomorrah. This indicates imo some kind of cataclysm in that area in the time given to Abraham, which is around 2000BC.

I really don't think it is in it for the sake of it.

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You can repeat the ScienceDaily article all you want, but it's still in agreement that the earths axial tilt changes in a continuous cycle. And contrary to what the OLB says, this tilt did not happen in 2193/2194 BC. It was something that was already in progress as were its affects, as well, for some 1300 years before the OLB's claims.

None of this is validation for the 2193/2194 BC date, which is something I've been saying for awhile.

cormac

Agreement” only says that at this stage it is the most acceptable theory in scientific circles. It does not mean that it has been proven.

How would you explain this quote from the book of Enoch, which is from the other side of the world and which was not known to anybody in the Netherlands in the 1860’s?

The Book of Enoch

Chapter 55

(4) And when that agitation took place; the saints out of heaven perceived it; the pillar of the earth shook from its foundation; and the sound was heard from the extremities of the earth unto the extremities of heaven at the same time.

Chapter 64

In those days Noah saw that the earth became inclined, and that destruction approached.(2) Then he lifted up his feet, and went to the ends of the earth, to the dwelling of his great-grandfather Enoch. (3) And Noah cried with a bitter voice, Hear me; hear me; hear me: three times. And he said, Tell me what is transacting upon the earth; for the earth labours, and is violently shaken. Surely I shall perish with it. (4) After this there was a great perturbation on earth, and a voice was heard from heaven. I fell down on my face, when my great-grandfather Enoch came and stood by me.

This echoes what the OLB says and what scientists have found. Scientists, however, are not certain whether it happened gradually (over millennia) or suddenly (over centuries). Both these ancient and independent sources are very clear that it happened almost instantaneously.

Your claim that it is part of a continuous cycle or that it was a gradual process is an unproven theory despite your efforts to promote it as a proven fact.

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Alewyn, I hope you have caught up with this latest revelation...

[1] A POSSIBLE NEW IMPACT SITE NEAR NALBACH (SAARLAND, GERMANY)

http://www.chiemgau-impact.com/

Thanks Puzzler. No, I was not aware of this website.

I just glanced over it and it would appear that scientists have not dated it conclusively (yet). Some of the diagrams would seem to indicate that the most recent pre-impact layers, however, dates to about 4000 years BP (2000 BC). This could make it very relevant to our discussion.

Thanks.

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“Agreement” only says that at this stage it is the most acceptable theory in scientific circles. It does not mean that it has been proven.

It DOES mean, however, that you're going to have to come up with something more substantial than "because the OLB says so".

Chapter 55

(4) And when that agitation took place; the saints out of heaven perceived it; the pillar of the earth shook from its foundation; and the sound was heard from the extremities of the earth unto the extremities of heaven at the same time.

Earthquake.

And he said, Tell me what is transacting upon the earth; for the earth labours, and is violently shaken.

Earthquake. And if we have to pretend that Noah was a real person then he'd apparently started in Mesopotamia and ended in Mesopotamia, as that's the area the story comes from. Considering that this isn't evidence of anything, least of all an impactor, then your point is what?

Your claim that it is part of a continuous cycle or that it was a gradual process is an unproven theory despite your efforts to promote it as a proven fact.

The multiple Bond Events and the Milankovitch Cycles support a continuous, gradual process and NOT a one-off impactor as you'd like to believe.

cormac

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Who cares about why?

Good example of your mentality:

Just ignore things you don't understand.

And even Ottema translated it as "pilot's apprentice". APPRENTICE.

He did not:

[p.41]

de jongste scheepsjongens elk een derde deel

[p.43]

Zijn er ligtmatrozen verongelukt

(An 18th century term for this was "hooploper".)

Something to consider:

[OLB p.32]

ÉWA THÀT SÉIT SETMA THÉR BI ALLER MÀNNISKA ÉLIK AN HJARA MOD PRENTH SEND

Edited by Otharus

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Icelandic is a language of about a 1000 years old, and still taught in schools, because it is the language they use daily.

You think languages are as old as the oldest surviving written record of it.

They are of course much older than that and the result of a gradual evolutionary process.

I can read most of the OLB with only my knowledge of Middle Dutch

My point was that this does not prove anything.

Besides, you read the translation first.

You can't tell how much you would have understood without that.

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I'd like to add: where is the geological proof lands rose up or submerged around that time? All these volcanoes erupting? Catastrophic floods? Fires burning for years? And all that in Europe, or around the North Sea or the Atlantic? In 2194 BC?

You want proof? Try this:

China

The extract of a paper written by Chun Chang Huang and others from the Department of Geography, Shaanxi Normal University, Xi’an, Shaanxi in the People’s Republic of China in 2010, Extraordinary floods related to the climatic event at 4200 a BP on the Qishuihe River, middle reaches of the Yellow River, China,:

A paleo-hydrological study was carried out in the Qishuihe River valley in the middle reaches of the Yellow River.

The results show that successive floods occurred between 4300 and 4000 a BP in association with the abrupt climatic event of 4200 a BP. These overbank floods had the riverbank settlement inundated repeatedly.

The climatic event of 4200 a BP and the climatic decline at 3100 a BP were believed to be characterized by droughts previously. This work provides solid evidence that both severe droughts and extreme floods were parts of the climatic variability during abrupt climatic event and climatic decline in the semi-arid to sub-humid zones over the world.

We also have ample archaeological evidence of ancient Chinese cultures that were destroyed in c. 2200 BC.

The Caribbean

Dr. Sander R. Scheffers of the School for Environmental Management and Science at Southern Cross University, NSW, Australia, and others, in an article, Tsunamis, hurricanes, the demise of coral reefs and shifts in pre-historic human populations in the Caribbean (Quaternary International, Volume 195, 15 February 2009, Pages 69-87):

Three extreme impacts with different magnitudes can be clearly distinguished. The youngest event occurred at approximately 500 BP, a second event at 3,100 BP, and the oldest at 4,200 BP (Scheffers, 2002; Scheffers et al. 2006).

Spain

Francisco Ruiz from the Department of Geodynamics and Palaeontology, University of Huelva, Avda, Spain, and others, noted in the research article, Evidence of high-energy events in the geological record: Mid-holocene evolution of the southwestern Doñana National Park (SW Spain) (Palaeogeography, Palaeoclimatology, Palaeoecology, Volume 229, Issue 3, 20 December 2005, Pages 212-229):

This was followed by a renewed phase of instability ( 4200–4100 cal. years BP) indicated by the presence of fine storm-lain deposits and thicker, probably tsunami-induced shelly deposits.

Sri Lanka

Ranasinghage, P. N et al in Signatures of Paleo-coastal Hazards in Back-barrier Environments of Eastern and Southeastern Sri Lanka (The Smithsonian/NASA Astrophysics Data System: American Geophysical Union, Fall Meeting 2010, abstract #NH21A-1397):

The most recent pre-2004 tsunami event likely occurred around 1000 yrs BP with the older events around 4200 yrs BP and 4900 yrs BP.

The ~ 4200 and ~ 4900 yrs BP events were recorded in multiple cores from Kirind and Vakarai as well as in cores from Hambantota by Jackson (2008).

Syria, Palestine, Iraq & Egypt

Prof Harvey Weiss, professor of Near Eastern Archaeology at Yale University in New Haven, Connecticut (The Sciences, May/June 1996 P. 33,34)

Whether at Tell Leilan or Tell Taya, Chagar Bazar or Tell al-Hawa, the results told the same story: between 2200 and 1900 BC people fled the Habur and Assyrian plains en masse

In Egypt, the Old Kingdom, during which the great pyramids were built, gave way to the turmoil of the First Intermediate Period; in Palestine, Early Bronze Age towns were abandoned; in Mesopotamia Akkad collapsed and nomadic people made strange movements across and down the Euphrates and Tigris valleys.

Only decades after the city’s massive walls were raised, its religious quarter renovated and its grain production reorganized, Tell Leilan was suddenly abandoned. In our excavations, the collapsed remains of Akkadian buildings are covered with erosion deposits that show no trace of human activity

In collaboration with soil scientist and archaeologist Marie-Agnés Courty of the National Centre for Scientific Research in Paris, it was noted that the remains of the city (Tell Leilan) was covered with a thin layer of volcanic ash followed by some 200mm of fine sand. She found very little evidence of earthworm activity, which pointed to a prolonged period of aridity.

The Netherlands

Otto S. Knottnerus from Zuidbroek in the Netherlands wrote an article, Sea Level Rise as a Threat to Cultural Heritage, in the Wadden Sea Newsletter 2000 (No. 2). Of note was the following statement in the article:

Near Delfzijl (Netherlands), Neolithic settlers built a megalithic-chambered tomb about 3350 BC. After 2200 BC, the site disappeared under several feet of clay and peat

North Africa

(Mentioned earlier)

The Potsdam-Institut fuer Klimafolgenforschung (Potsdam Institute for Climate Impact Research) in Germany, headed by Prof. Dr. Martin Claussen, analyzed climate feedbacks from the last several thousand years as reported in ScienceDaily

Before that time, the Sahara was covered by annual grasses and low shrubs, as evidenced by fossilized pollen.

The transition to today's arid climate was not gradual, but occurred in two specific episodes. The first, which was less severe, occurred between 6,700 and 5,500 years ago. The second, which was brutal, lasted from 4,000 to 3,600 years ago. Summer temperatures increased sharply, and precipitation decreased, according to carbon-14 dating. This event devastated ancient civilizations and their socio-economic systems.

The change from the mid-Holocene climate to that of today was initiated by changes in the Earth's orbit and the tilt of Earth's axis.

In pre-historic times, Lake Yoa in North Eastern Chad was part of the greater Lake Megachad and then, about 4000 years ago, its waters suddenly turned salty (Scientific American, May 9, 2008: From Bountiful to Barren: Rainfall Decrease Left the Sahara Out to Dry - How a once-wet landscape became one of the world's great deserts. By Adam Hadhazy ).

This happened around the same time when the salt content of the ground increased at Tell Leilan in Syria, more than 2500 kilometres away. Scientists speculate that the cessation of fresh water recharge to the lake from rain or rivers and subsequent evaporation would have dramatically increased the salt content over the ensuing millennia. Archaeologists, however, noted that the salinity suddenly increased 4000 years ago. This was not a gradual process. Many of the lakes in North Africa today are salt-water lakes.

Do you still believe that the authors of the OLB dreamed up the catastrophe of 2193/12194 BC?

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Even the Nazis were convinced - eventually - that Wirth had been talking from a place where the sun never shines.

You are very naive.

As I pointed out before (twice), they had very good political reasons to reject it:

From Tex Frya's (the oldest 'laws'):

- don't give up your freedom

- don't take another's freedom

- don't start wars

BTW, Himmler apparently kept believing in OLB's authenticity till his death.

In the German speaking countries OLB is known as "Himmler's Bibel" (and this could very well be the reason why it is not popular there either...)

How did he know Wralda wasn't known to represent God in the 19th century? Because HE couldn't find an older source?

Obviously, your omniscient hoaxer was the only one who knew.

There has been an extensive discussion about OLB in the 19th century and nobody ever brought this most relevant fact up. That's how Wirth knew.

I'd like to tell you it was no one else but Puzzler who showed you it was known.

That's not correct. The very first time it was mentioned in this forum was in my post of 10 November 2010:

There has been talk about how much of what is in OLB was already known to the 19th century elite.

...

Jensma (p. 92-93 of "De Gemaskerde God"):

"WR.ALDA is the most explicit character in the whole OLB. His name, that is used 96 times, is a great find in itself. 'Wralda is Oldfrisian for 'world', but the point in the word makes it possible to read the name as 'Oer.alda' - the 'over-old one', and possibly also as 'Oeral.da' - 'where-all there' (omnipresent)." (improvised translation by me)

(original text:) "WR.ALDA is het meest uitgewerkte personage uit het hele Oera Linda-boek. Zijn naam, die maar liefst 96 keer wordt genoemd, is op zichzelf al een vondst van formaat. 'Wralda is Oudfries voor 'wereld', maar de punt in het woord (in het OLBees staat WR.ALDA) maakt dat de naam ook kan worden gelezen als 'Oer.alda' - de 'oeroude', en mogelijk ook nog eens als 'Oeral.da' - 'Overal aanwezig'."

What Jensma did not know - or maybe he deliberately ignored it - is that varieties of the word Wralda exist in old Nordic archaeology, mythology, poetry in a similar context; and it does not only mean world...

1. Frey or Freyr, the twin-brother of Freya (and associated with fertility) is refered to as "Veraldar God".

2. In old-Laplandic the term "Weralden Olma" refers to what we would call God or Allah.

3. The creation myth of the poetic Edda starts with "Ar Var Alda"; first was old-one (or big wave, see

).

(4. I even dare suggest an etymological relationship between 'Alda' and 'Allah', but I don't even need this here to make my point.)

Prof. Dr. H. Wirth mentioned 1. and 2. in a newspaper article in 1925 (Leeuwarder Courant 31 october) and added:

"... the Ingvaeonic name for God, Wralda, that was not known to science in the time that the manuscript supposedly would have been created, and partly still isn't!" (improvised translation by me)

(original:) "... de Ingvaeonische naam voor God, Wralda, die in den tijd waarin het handschrift vervalscht zou moeten zijn, aan de wetenschap onbekend was en ten deele nog is!"

So if it takes almost 50 years for Dutch scholars to notice that Wralda does not only mean World, but in other old cultures was also used to refer to the oldest or most important deity or spirit, it is not likely that a few conspirors knew this and used it for their hoax. I find it reveiling that even present day Frisian expert Jensma did not seem to know this when he wrote his publications (or he ignored it, which would be even more suspect).

And why don't we read that nonsense you talk about in the OLB? Well, I do, but you don't, apparently.

I have no idea what you're referring to here.

Edited by Otharus

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It DOES mean, however, that you're going to have to come up with something more substantial than "because the OLB says so".

And if we have to pretend that Noah was a real person then he'd apparently started in Mesopotamia and ended in Mesopotamia, as that's the area the story comes from. Considering that this isn't evidence of anything, least of all an impactor, then your point is what?

cormac

"Something more substantial":

See my previous post.

"Pretending that Noah was a real person":

So now we have independent hoaxes in Mesopotamia and the Netherlands? Funny that both, being hoaxes and unaware of each other, should tell exactly the same story and date from the same time.

This is exactly what Abramelin and Knull are doing. By declaring something a hoax or simply by going into denial, they hope that the evidence will go away. Well friend, it will not go away despite all your yapping at my heels.

Fortunately you and I are not the only ones reading this.

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So now we have independent hoaxes in Mesopotamia and the Netherlands?

Do you have evidence that Noah WAS a real person? And that the story of Noah's Flood WASN'T a reworking of the flood story of Utnapishtim? And that the flood story of Utnapishtim involved an impactor? And that evidence would be what?

Based on what you're using as 'evidence' I have evidence that there once was a warrior who travelled through the skies in a chariot pulled by two rams and wielded a hammer, which caused thunder and lightning. Guess we should start looking for him too. My source? The vikings said so! :rolleyes:

cormac

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Paleoenvironmental Data for Abrupt Climate Change:

The Workshop on Third Millennium BC Climate Change

and Old World Collapse

etc. etc.

Your last few posts contain some very powerful evidence in favour of the OLB's date of 2193 BC.

I am afraid, however, you will never convince the likes of Cormac, Abramelin and Knull. They are simply not able to challenge the status quo.

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Your last few posts contain some very powerful evidence in favour of the OLB's date of 2193 BC.

I am afraid, however, you will never convince the likes of Cormac, Abramelin and Knull. They are simply not able to challenge the status quo.

Nope, I'm just not able to pull an idea out of my butt and call it a fact.

cormac

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Do you have evidence that Noah WAS a real person? And that the story of Noah's Flood WASN'T a reworking of the flood story of Utnapishtim? And that the flood story of Utnapishtim involved an impactor? And that evidence would be what?

Based on what you're using as 'evidence' I have evidence that there once was a warrior who travelled through the skies in a chariot pulled by two rams and wielded a hammer, which caused thunder and lightning. Guess we should start looking for him too. My source? The vikings said so! :rolleyes:

cormac

Yes. I have Biblical evidence that was penned down by numerous authors over thousands of years. Obviously you don't accept this.

So, now give us your evidence that he did not exist. Don't give us your opinion or gut-feel - that means nothing. A single proven source will suffice.

Having said that, look past the characters and names and concentrate on the description of the event; regardless of who wrote it.

It still matches the OLB's description. How do you explain this?

Edited by Alewyn

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Obviously you don't accept this.

You're right. Biblical stories are only evidence that the early Jews and later Christians believed it. That doesn't make them true.

So, now give us your evidence that he did not exist.

Outside of math, perhaps, you can't prove a negative. Not to mention that I'm not the one claiming these stories are real. And at their earliest the Biblical stories would only date to the last centuries BC while Israelites, as even a tribe, are unattested before 1207 BC. NONE of which supports your claim.

cormac

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You're right. Biblical stories are only evidence that the early Jews and later Christians believed it. That doesn't make them true.

Outside of math, perhaps, you can't prove a negative. Not to mention that I'm not the one claiming these stories are real. And at their earliest the Biblical stories would only date to the last centuries BC while Israelites, as even a tribe, are unattested before 1207 BC. NONE of which supports your claim.

cormac

See my edit above

Edit.

I see that you, true to form, conveniently ignore the scientific evidence I gave to Abramelin re a global disaster in c. 2200 BC.

Edited by Alewyn

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I would like to nominate the following post as one of the very best of this whole thread.

Thank you, Alewyn!

Let me answer my own question as to why the Oera Linda Book does not refer to Persia or the Persians. Instead the book refers to the “Ira”

Original Fries (Tresoar)

Biwesta Pangab ther sind tha Ira ieftha wranga,…”

and

Therthrvch havon wi tha Ira and tha othera kenna lerth. Tha Ira ne sind nene ira mar goda minska ther nena bildon to leta nach onbidda…”

English

To the west of the Pangab are the Ira, or Wranga, …”

In that way we came to know the Ira and other people. The Ira are not savages, but good people, who neither pray to nor tolerate images…”

Here is what Wikipedia has to say:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sassanid_Empire

The Sassanid Empire (also spelled Sasanid Empire, Sassanian Empire, or Sasanian Empire), known to its inhabitants as Ērānshahr and Ērān in Middle Persian and resulting in the New Persian terms Iranshahr and Iran, was the last pre-Islamic Persian Empire, ruled by the Sasanian Dynasty from 224 to 651.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran

The name "Iran" has been in use natively since the Sassanian era and came into use internationally in 1935, before which the country was known to the Western world as Persia”

“The term Ērān is found to refer to Iran in a 3rd century Sassanid inscription, and the Parthian inscription that accompanies it uses the Parthian term "aryān" in reference to Iranians.”

However historically Iran has been referred to as Persia or similar (La Perse, Persien, Perzië, etc.) by the Western world, mainly due to the writings of Greek historians who called Iran Persēs (Πέρσης), meaning land of the Persians.”

So you see, before 1935, Iran (“the land of the Ira”) was known throughout the Western world as “Persia”. Yet, the OLB does not talk about the Persians, but rather about the Ira; the only West European source which called them by their ancient name. This also tells us that the name Ira or Iran goes back to before 300 BC and most likely to before 1500 BC when the Gertmanne arrived in the Punjab. This is much further back than the Sassanid Empire and even before the Greeks’ “Persia”.

To me this is further evidence that the OLB is authentic, but I suppose Abe will again say this was known in 19th century Holland.

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It still matches the OLB's description. How do you explain this?

Better question is how do you explain the fact that the Israelites, even as a tribe, are attested c.1208 BC while the earliest for anything like Frisians in the area, via language (Proto-Germanic), only dates to c.750 BC at the earliest? Making the Israelites the earliest of the two and Canaanite in origin, NOT Mesopotamian. NEITHER Israel or Frisians bears evidence of extending back to the 3rd millenium BC.

cormac

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Updated top 10

01 03 Moldova

02 02 Netherlands

03 01 United States

04 04 Germany

05 05 Russia

06 07 Ukraine

07 06 Latvia

08 08 France

09 09 United Kingdom

10 -- Iran

... Moldova?!

Iran??

Now you know why :lol:

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I see that you, true to form, conveniently ignore the scientific evidence I gave to Abramelin re a global disaster in c. 2200 BC.

I'm not ignoring it. Some of it we've already been over before and the claims ARE NOT as you've presented them in the past. But in ALL cases, not a one of them makes the claim that something happened in 2193/2194, specifically. This has been your downfall for the last 507 pages. So again, where's your evidence supporting the specific date of 2193/2194 BC?

cormac

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I actually propose an origin in or near Poland for the onset of a warrior class people who had metal tools and weapons, a thunder God and shamanistic religion, chariots and IE language and this is the origin of it's spread. All along the Baltic coast, to at least Lithuania, were Fryans.

R1a1a (R-M17 or R-M198) sub-clade is the one most commonly associated with Indo-European speakers. Most discussions purportedly of R1a origins are actually about the origins of the dominant R1a1a (R-M17 or R-M198) sub-clade. Data so far collected indicates that there two widely separated areas of high frequency, one in South Asia, around North India, and the other in Eastern Europe, around Poland and Ukraine. The historical and prehistoric possible reasons for this are the subject of on-going discussion and attention amongst population geneticists and genetic genealogists, and are considered to be of potential interest to linguists and archaeologists also. Recent findings indicate that R1a's origin is likely to be in South Asia, but probably at a date earlier than the expansion of the Indo-Iranian language family.

Out of 10 human male remains assigned to the Andronovo horizon from the Krasnoyarsk region, 9 possessed the R1a Y-chromosome haplogroup and one C haplogroup (xC3). mtDNA haplogroups of nine individuals assigned to the same Andronovo horizon and region were as follows: U4 (2 individuals), U2e, U5a1, Z, T1, T4, H, and K2b.

90% of the Bronze Age period mtDNA haplogroups were of west Eurasian origin and the study determined that at least 60% of the individuals overall (out of the 26 Bronze and Iron Age human remains' samples of the study that could be tested) had light hair and blue or green eyes.

A 2004 study also established that during the Bronze Age/Iron Age period, the majority of the population of Kazakhstan (part of the Andronovo culture during Bronze Age), was of west Eurasian origin (with mtDNA haplogroups such as U, H, HV, T, I and W), and that prior to the 13th-7th century BCE, all Kazakh samples belonged to European lineages.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-Iranians

The Indo-Iranians and their expansion are strongly associated with the Proto-Indo-European invention of the chariot. It is assumed that this expansion went into from the Proto-Indo-European homeland north of the Caspian sea south to the Caucasus, Central Asia, the Iranian plateau, and Northern India. They also expanded into Mesopotamia and Syria and introduced the horse and chariot culture to this part of the world. Sumerian texts from EDIIIb Girsu (2500-2350 BC) already mention the 'chariot' (gigir) and Ur III texts (2150-2000 BC) mention the horse (anshe-zi-zi).

Now,

The earliest well-dated depiction of a wheeled vehicle (here a wagon—four wheels, two axles), is on the Bronocice pot, a ca. 3500–3350 BCE clay pot excavated in a Funnelbeaker culture settlement in southern Poland.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chariot

POLE LAND: an eagle emblem, poles, mermaids and amber, the vistula, earliest chariots, shamanism in the east of Poland into Ukraine -the whole bit.

apollo - a pol - from Hyperborea. :w00t:

Celtic, Germanic and Baltic tribes inhabited various parts of Poland. Eventually, in the Middle Ages, the area came to be dominated by Slavic tribes and finally became home to a number of West Slavic Polish tribes that formed small states in the region, beginning in the 8th century.

Contacts with early Bronze Age Mediterranean and even further afield...

The Bronze Age in Poland, as well as elsewhere in central Europe, begins with the innovative Unetice culture, in existence in Silesia and a part of Greater Poland during the first period of this era, that is from before 2200 to 1600 BC. This settled agricultural society's origins consisted of the conservative traditions inherited from the Corded Ware populations and dynamic elements of the Bell-Beaker people. Significantly, the Unetice people cultivated contacts with the highly developed cultures of the Carpathian Basin, through whom they had trade links with the cultures of early Greece. Their culture also echoed inspiring influence coming all the way from the most highly developed at that time civilizations of the Middle East.

Characteristic of the Unetice societies was greater general affluence and developed social stratification, compared with Late Neolithic cultures. Objects made of bronze, often of luxurious or prestigious nature, were in high demand as symbols of power and importance and are typically found in the graves of "princes". Fourteen such burial sites, circular mounds of earth heaped up on top of wooden, clay and stone structures, some as large as 30 meters in diameter, were found in Łęki Małe near Grodzisk Wielkopolski, erected 2000–1800 BC, suggesting the existence of a local dynasty.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehistory_of_Poland_(until_966)

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Better question is how do you explain the fact that the Israelites, even as a tribe, are attested c.1208 BC while the earliest for anything like Frisians in the area, via language (Proto-Germanic), only dates to c.750 BC at the earliest?

Simple.

Because the number of accepted sources of 'Proto-Germanic' is more limited.

Besides, OLB is a 13th century copy of a collection of texts that was first compiled in the 6th century BC (with parts added later up until ca. 50 BC).

The first compilers of the book apparently had access to older sources (in their language), but we won't know what their language had been in the times described by their sources (like 2200 BC). Only that in 600 BC they had written sources about those times. How much of their sources at that time was fiction and how much was fact we won't know exactly, but if parts of it agree with other ancient sources and with archaeological and/or geological finds, that is enough reason to take it seriously.

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So again, where's your evidence supporting the specific date of 2193/2194 BC?

This is also something I have a problem with accepting, specially in the sub-title of Alewyn's book: "The course of Eurasia after the night of Wednesday 21 October 2193 BC".

This level of specificity causes some resistance in me.

I'd say ca. 2200 BC or even ca. 2000 BC.

To come to an agreement (for now) that OLB might possibly be authentic (i.e. not a hoax) would already be a major step forward, as the path for scholars to start taking it seriously would finally be opened.

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I would like to nominate the following post as one of the very best of this whole thread.

Thank you, Alewyn!

It just proofs, that the OLB has been written after 1935.

s. http://www.maps.com/map.aspx?pid=15966 (National Geographic World Map 1935). [iran (formerly Persia)]

s. http://maps.nationalgeographic.com/maps/print-collection/world-map-1922.html (National Geographic World Map 1922). [Persia]

Edited by Knul

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I'm not ignoring it. Some of it we've already been over before and the claims ARE NOT as you've presented them in the past. But in ALL cases, not a one of them makes the claim that something happened in 2193/2194, specifically. This has been your downfall for the last 507 pages. So again, where's your evidence supporting the specific date of 2193/2194 BC?

cormac

Where's the evidence of the beginning of Christian Reckoning and that it co-incides exactly with 2193BC when you count back from the dates the actual parts of the manuscript were written before the onset of Christian Reckoning, as only the last 2 short later entries are dated.

Also, most dates are said to be around 2200BC, I don't think a give or take date range of 10 years is any big deal anyway. Nor are any specific dates exactly given, although the end of the Akkadian Empire is specifically dated to 2193BC.

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It just proofs, that the OLB has been written after 1935.

EUREKA!

Mystery explained.

We can close the thread now.

Well done, Knul!

:lol:

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