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Riaan

[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood

11,638 posts in this topic

I know you posted this months ago but, there is that date of 2200 BC again - and fires to boot. Don't you find it even a little bit peculiar that the date keeps on cropping up?

I re-posted it because I wasn't sure you remembered it.

Anyway, about that date:

"By 2400 B.C. the social stress facing the Millarens began to worsen into a crisis and the large settlements began to depopulate. The graves of the elites were increasingly accompanied with weapons indicating the violent nature of the time. By 2200 B.C. the town of Los Millares was abandoned after a sequence of catastrophes (probably large-scale warfare). There is evidence of widespread fires and damage to the fortifications. But amid the destruction, the first settlements of the El Argar arose to take their place."

If this area was part of Fryan area, everything wasn't as peaceful and harmonious before 2194 BC as the OLB wants us to believe.

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Apparently so.

I thought this one was interesting though because the word Kala, for Shiva, is a very similar word as in KALEvala.

Kālī (Sanskrit: काली, IPA: [kɑːliː]; Bengali: কালী; Punjabi: ਕਾਲੀ; Tamil: காளி; Telugu: కాళికాదేవి), also known as Kālikā (Sanskrit: कालिका, Bengali: কালিকা), is the Hindu goddess associated with eternal energy. "She who destroys". The name Kali comes from kāla, which means black, time, death, lord of death, Shiva. Kali means "the black one". Since Shiva is called Kāla - the eternal time, Kālī, his consort, also means "Time" or "Death" (as in time has come). Hence, Kāli is considered the goddess of time and change. Although sometimes presented as dark and violent, her earliest incarnation as a figure of annihilation still has some influence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kali

Too tired to follow it up now and off topic anyway. :sleepy:

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These watery tales certainly attract larger numbers of readers dont they regardless of the hecklers and trolls :-) This thread 198,485 Views

THE LOCATION OF ATLANTIS 913,327 views

:tu:

Nik

What is that supposed to mean??

Did you even TRY to read this thread?

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Apparently so.

I thought this one was interesting though because the word Kala, for Shiva, is a very similar word as in KALEvala.

Kālī (Sanskrit: काली, IPA: [kɑːliː]; Bengali: কালী; Punjabi: ਕਾਲੀ; Tamil: காளி; Telugu: కాళికాదేవి), also known as Kālikā (Sanskrit: कालिका, Bengali: কালিকা), is the Hindu goddess associated with eternal energy. "She who destroys". The name Kali comes from kāla, which means black, time, death, lord of death, Shiva. Kali means "the black one". Since Shiva is called Kāla - the eternal time, Kālī, his consort, also means "Time" or "Death" (as in time has come). Hence, Kāli is considered the goddess of time and change. Although sometimes presented as dark and violent, her earliest incarnation as a figure of annihilation still has some influence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kali

Too tired to follow it up now and off topic anyway. :sleepy:

Etymology

From Kaleva +‎ -la = dwelling place of Kaleva (or, of the descendants of Kaleva).

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Kalevala#Etymology

It might also have something to do with "blacksmith"

"KALEVA, fictional ancestor or "father" of several personalities, male and female, mostly "Kaleva sons....." and read on.

http://books.google.nl/books?id=FRoMUZQmx_MC&pg=PA393&lpg=PA393&dq=kalevala+etymology&source=bl&ots=CimsL3QpAD&sig=R4_Uh0E4AI8TxbQtnOxOIwZaHlw&hl=nl&ei=T9LDTsS4NYb_-ga366j4DQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=kalevala%20etymology&f=false

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Downfall?!

You can’t be serious. Six or Seven years over 4200 years? Don't you think you are now grasping at straws?

The Oera Linda Book uses the Date of 2193/2194 as the start of their calendar. If you examine the OLB like I did and you find all the verifiable facts to be correct, then you must assume that the date is also pretty accurate. Add to this the demise of the Akkadian Empire (2193 BC), the Harrapan Urban Civilization (c. 2200 BC), The Old Kingdom in Egypt (c. 2200BC), Ancient cultures in China (c. 2200 BC), all the tsunami and flood evidence I gave earlier today (c. 2200 BC), etc. etc. Surely you do not expect all these archaeological dates to be accurate to the exact year.

Btw. The OLB dating just happens to tie in with Alexander the Great's Indian campaign which tells me the date is correct.

I am certain you have it in you to up your analytical skills a notch or two.

You have well observed, that the OLB dating (I call it AT = Atland) ties in with the known date of the campaign of Alexander the Great. Similarly the OLB dating of the visit of Ulysses to Walhallagara (burchtfam Kalip = Calypso) lines up with the end of the Trojan war (traditionally ca. 1180) 1005 years after Atland had sunken (2193 - 1005 = 1188). This does not proof, that the dates of the OLB are correct, but that the author used known dates for his story. Every student of the so called Latin Schools knew these dates.

Troy was ruled by Heracleid dynasty, for 505 years until the time of Candaules. The generation before the Trojan War, Heracles captured Troy and killed Laomedon and his sons, except for young Priam. Priam later became king and during his reign, the Greeks invaded and captured Troy, in the Trojan War, 1193–1183 BCE, most recently dated to 1188 BCE. s. http://www.hector.com/listingview.php?listingID=14.

Edited by Knul

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About Slavery in the OLB: (No English text available) The objections to slavery are similar to the ideas of Halbertsma

Dat er ook slaven en lijfeigenen in Friesland zouden geweest zijn, wordt op grond van enkele plaatsen der oude Friesche wetten door sommigen beweerd, doch door anderen tegengesproken, op grond der algemeene volksvrijheid en gelijkheid van alle ingezetenen voor de wet; alsmede, omdat de slavernij haren grond had in het regt van verovering. Aangezien nu de Friezen, althans na KARELden groote, van het zwerven en veroveren hadden afgezien, en zich door eene bijzondere gehechtheid aan hun land kenmerkten, is hier kwalijk aan slavernij te denken, ten zij gevangen genomen Noormannen daarin vielen. Zoo denkt ook HALBERTSMA in zijne Letterkundige Naoogst, 1840, I 135, 138.

BEKNOPTE GESCHIEDENIS VAN FRIESLAND IN HOOFDTREKKEN; bevattende een Overzigt van de lotgevallen der Friezen en van de voornaamste gebeurtenissen, gedurende bijna tweeduizend jaren in dit land voorgevallen.

UIT VELE VROEGERE EN LATERE BRONNEN BEWERKT,DOOR W. EEKHOFF Archivarius der stad Leeuwarden, Voorzitter van de Tweede Afdeeling der werkende Leden van het Friesch Genootschap van Geschied-, Oudheid- en Taalkunde, Lid van de Maatschappij van Nederlandsche Letterkunde te Leiden en van het Provinciaal Utrechtsch Genootschap van Kunsten en Wetenschappen. Met eene Schetskaart van den waarschijnlijken toestand van het land der Friezen en hunne naburen, omstreeks den aanvang onzer tijdrekening.

TE LEEUWARDEN, BIJ W. EEKHOFF. 1851.

About the Sax (knife) in the OLB (no English text available) The explanation of the name of the Saxons (sax - knife) in the OLB can be related to J.H. Halbertsma's study of long and short knives.

vs. 69. stekemes couteau poignard, het korte zwaard, bij de Sc. sax Ags. seax genaamd. Aelfrici glossae, handsex othtïie lytel svntrd, handsax of klein zwaard. Het korte zijgeweer , hetwelk de Friesche policiedienaars ten platte lande droegen, noemden de oude Oostfriezen ook saghs, gelijk Cadovius Muller in zy'n eigenhandig Afemoriale Frisice, thans mijn eigendom, door eene afbeelding der saghs bewijst. Aelfric gl. vertaalt sex ook, cultellus, gelijk Nennius saxes door cultelli; doch cultellus had in de middeneeuwen de beteekenis van handwapen , hetzij korter, hetzij langer. Zie bij du Cange op cultellus de volgende plaats; „ habcbant cultellos longos, gra„ cues, triacumines, quolibet acumine indifferenter secantes, ,. a cuspide usque ad manubrium, quibus utebanter pro gla„ dus." Dit lijkt veel op onze degens. Het woord mes, door Maerlant hier voor de sax gebezigd, heeft ook de dubbelde beteekenis van culter en gladius; zie Kil. Aelfr. gl. cnif artovus, i. e. pennemes. Lfr. kmf knipmesje, in onderscheiding van het grootere mees, culter. NL hak-mes, breede keukenbijl met dun blad.. Maerlant bedoelt met steeck-wessen dus korte degens, of lange daggen. Ik moet echter doen opmerken, dat de Friezen en zee-Saxen wel een zakwapen droegen om te houwen en te snijden, niet om te steken; bij de Italianen, en in het gemeen bij de zuidelijke volken van Europa, zijn de steekmessen en ponjanrds meer in zwang. De zee-Saxen en Friezen waren nooit zonder een groot puntmes, dat, het lemmet in eene lederen schede gestoken, met het hecht den dijzak der broek uitstak, en ieder oogenblik met gemak werd uitgehaald, hetzij om brood of touw te snijden, hetzij om partij een jaap in het gezigt te geven. Om van het kortjan der matrozen te zwijgen, dient het zakmes in ons vaderland nog hier en daar tot dat einde, en vroeger was op de Friesche en Saxische kermissen ten platten lande het mcsjentrekken even gewoon en eerlijk als het dansen. Deventer had voormaals eene keur op de hangmessen; om burgeroorlog voor te komen, mogten zij niet gedragen worden dan tot zekere lengte, wier maat door een modelmes , nog op het stadhuis aanwezig, werd aangewezen. Overigens is het duidelijk , dat zeelieden, gelijk Hengist en de zijnen, zich met lange wapens in geene touwen en zeilen konden redden, en zich dus van kort handgeweer bedienen moesten.

die lose, die ongetrouwe,

die kadde in sine mouwe

een stékemes al heimelilce,

i ml,: alle de sine des geUke.

Ten tijde van Maerlant droegen de mannen wijde mouwen, gelyk aan zijn eigen portrait te zien is. De zot verbierg in de mouw zijn marot, de toovenaar den wind, de sluikmoordenaar den ponjaard; van hier NI. hij heeft ze in de mouw, hjj heeft stille knepen. Gelijk na de middeneeuwsche schilders de windmolens reeds voor den zondvloed laten draaijen, en Noah eenen bril op den neus zetten, zoo laat M. hier de Saxen hunne lange messen uit de wijde wambuismouwen halen. Maar Hengist en de zijnen droegen de armen bloot, en het was ook onnoodig, dat oorlogsmannen, anders altijd met korte zwaardjes gewapend, die bij deze gelegenheid zouden hebben verborgen. Mouwen waren bij uitsluiting de dragt der vrouwen. De ruime beteekenis van soa; en mes ligt in beider grondbeteekenis van snijden, die zoo wel op het kleinste mes als het grootste slagzwaard kan toegepast worden. Graff leidt mes af van G. maitan, scindere; het is van Sc. massa, in kleine stukjes snijden, waarvan het Fr. massacrer. De a, bij de Neder- en Hoogduitschers verschraald tot e in NI. mes Th. mezarahs Hd. messer, vergroofde zich tot o bij de Hindelopers en andere zuidhoeksche Friezen in hun mos, culter, terwijl het Lfr. de a op zijn Agelsaxisch in CB, mees, verandert. Sax zit vast aan het algemeene thema van sic in Lat. ska, secare; NI. sikkel Ags. sicel, falx. Sc. sigd Lfr. sichte id. sichtja falce demetere. Th. seh ligo. Ags. ncegel-seax nagelmesje; scer-scex scheermes. Th. scar-sahs scheermes; mezzi-sahs ploegijzer. Zoo zien wij, dat sax de snijdende werktuigen, vanliet scheermes tot de spade en het oorlogszwaard toe, aanduidde: mes doet hetzelfde, cf. Gff. H. 912.

J.H. Halbertsma AANTEEKENINGEN SPIEGEL HISTORUEL. UITGEGEVEN DOOR DE TWEEDE KLASSE VAN HET KONINKLIJK-NEDERLANDSCHE INSTITUUT VAN WETENSCHAPPEN, LETTERKUNDE EN SCHOONE KUNSTEN. AMSTERDAM,Jen 4*f° December 1851.

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Did you know that it was once "widely accepted" that our economy would always keep growing and what happened to wise people who dared to challenge this belief?

You surely remember the once "widely accepted" ideas that the earth is flat and that the sun rotates around it.

I've seen enough of your 'evidence' to not feel like wasting my time on reading a book by the incredibly boring Halbertsma (who had no sense of humor or imagination).

Why don't you quote or summarize this evidence so the whole forum can read it?

If it's any good, I or Abe will translate it for you.

I invited you both to translate the testament of Cornelis over de Linden, but it did not happen. I suggested to you to read Letterkundige Naoogst so that you could select the relevant items yourself, but you refuse to read it (in order not to be convinced I guess). I have posted two texts today, worthwile for a translation. By the way, you know that Rimen en Tsjeltjes of the bruorren Halbertsma is reprinted till today, because Halbertsma's stories are interesting and humoristic ?

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Menno, you suggested Otharus should read "Letterkundige Naoogst", but he already did and posted about it (you can read/download it here... and look at the sentence you see first: "Ork my son", heh.. http://books.google.nl/books?id=UCNbAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA129&lpg=PA129&dq=halbertsma+%22Ork,+mijn+zoon%22&source=bl&ots=5nFOk8sZG3&sig=r0fMyCwpkiulDPuNuwGvFR_45rA&hl=nl&ei=VmZFTZy2GsaYOuPzxI4C&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false ) :

Abe, you have suggested several times that you consider the Frisian Joost Halbertsma (1789-1869) to be the mastermind, the main suspect of having created the supposed OLB-hoax.

I invite you to have a look into his mind and then reconsider the plausibility of this.

The following is copied from his publication "LETTERKUNDIGE NAOOGST" (1840), a study of Frisian poetry and literature and the meaning of words (page 138). Translation into English, followed by the original.

Improvised translation

"Tzjerl. The Latin gerulus, a carrier, is like the Germanic carle, Anglosaxon céorle, English churl [tshurl] and this Tjzerl or tzjirl; meaning a man, that by his birth is doomed to carry and tote, or to general land-labour. We already saw that the word with the Anglosaxons and the Frisians had the meaning of a service-man, with or without the prefix hûs. But these huis-kerels, that is, house-servants, became besides fieldworkers, also servants around the house for the landlords and later also for helpers in battle. King Aelfric therefore used the term æcer-céorl, akkerkerel or farmer, as opposed to hûs-cèorl. That's why in medieval Latin hus-carla not only means the man, who is part of the court of a prince or lord, but also the warrior from the court, or one of the bodyguards. Du Cange gave an example where the king gave certain orders to all soldiers of his court, that in Danish are called hûs-carlen. Gabbema (...) shows the tzirlen as meaning fight-mates, and Gysbert uses it in a similar sense like comrade, fellow, loyal mate. The Hollanders say in that same sense "kereltje" to the children, and the Friezen Tzirl to a grown up man. Tzirl is more proud and more masculine than Kereltje. Friesland was the most aristocratic nation of the world, yet so much tempered by democracy, that the farmer calls his landlord Tzerl with the deepest respect. This cultural spirit, still owned by the English, was the result of these peoples being ruled by the ancient duces, mentioned by Tacitus."

Dutch

"Tzjerl. Het Latijnsche gerulus, een drager, staat over tegen het Germaansche carle, Angels, céorle, Eng. churl [tshurl] en dit Tjzerl of tzjirl; duidende dus eigenlijk een man aan, die door zijne geboorte tot dragen en sjouwen, of tot gemeenen veldarbeid, gedoemd is. Wij hebben reeds gezien, dat het woord bij de Angelsaxen en Friezen de beteekenis van zulk eenen dienstman bezat, het zij dan met of zonder vooraanzetting van hûs. Maar die huis-kerels, dat is, huis-knechten, wierden behalve tot den veldarbeid, bij de groote heeren vervolgens ook tot huisdiensten, en eindelijk tot helpers in den strijd gebruikt. Koning Aelfric sprak daarom al van eenen æcer-céorl, akkerkerel of boer, in tegenstelling met een hûs-cèorl. Van daar beteekent in het middeneeuwsch Latijn hus-carla niet alleen den man, die tot den hofstoet van een prins of groot heer behoort, maar ook den krijgsman uit de hofhouding, die tot de lijfwacht behoorde. Du Cange haalt daartoe onder anderen eene plaats aan, waarin de koning aan al de soldaten van zijne huishouding, welke men in het Deensch hûs-carlen noemt, zeker bevel geeft. Bij Gabbema (...) komen de tzirlen dan ook voor als strijdgenooten, en in dergelijken zin van kameraad, beste, trouwe maat, neemt het ook Gysbert. De Hollanders zeggen in dien zelfden zin kereltje tegen de kinders, waarin de Friezen Tzirl tot een volwassen man. Tzirl is deftiger en mannelijker dan Kereltje. Friesland was het aristocratischste land der wereld, doch zoo sterk getemperd door de democratie, dat de boer behoudens de diepste achting zijnen landheer Tzerl noemt. Deze volksgeest, die nog aan de Engelschen eigen is, was het uitvloeisel van het staan dezer volkstammen onder de aloude duces, van welke Tacitus spreekt.

Some conclusions

1)

Halbertsma starts with comparing this Frisian word "Tzjerl" with its counterparts in Latin, Germanic, Anglosaxon and English. He emphatically leaves out the Dutch "Kerel". Later he mentions that the Hollanders call their children "kereltje", but he immediately adds that the Frisian word is so much more masculine and proud.

In the OLB, the version of this word is KERDEL and it is used only twice:

(Fryan) KERDEL = (Dutch) kerel = (German) Kerl = (Swedish) kille = (Frisian) = tzjerl

(the modern English churl has a negative meaning, but apparently in the 19th century it was still a positive term)

Related names: Karel, Karl, Carl, Charles, Carolus, Carlos

transliteration Ottema, 1876:

[p.041] Jahwêder jong kerdel âch en brud to sêka ånd is er fif ånd twintich sa âcht-er en wif to håva.

[p.119] Thâ hja landa hipte-n jong kerdel wal vp. In sina handa hêdi-n skild, thêrvp was bråd åend salt lêid.

Now imagine this Halbertsma, being a proud nationalsist Frisian, who liked to believe that his Frisian language was older than the language of the Hollanders that he must have hated or at least despised so much. And he has a little obsession with this word tzjerl (in his beloved English: churl).

Why would he, writing his political and/or cultural-historical masterpiece use a version of this word that is much closer to the Hollandic KEREL that to his Frisian TZJERL? And he could easily have used this word many times, preferrably in combination with "HûS-", but no, it's only used twice and only in the context of a young man, and hardly as the hard working or brave, proud loyal warrior that he described in his 1840 essay.

2)

He proudly calls Friesland the most aristocratic nation of the world and he does not seem very pleased with the democratic principle. The OLB does not reflect these sentiments at all.

3)

He suggests that the respect that the Frisians and English still have for their landlords stems from the time of the DUCES from the Roman times (reminds me of Mussolini LOL). How do you think the Folkmothers and the free fryans from the OLB would have felt about those 'duces'? That was a rhetorical question indeed.

So, in this short sample, there's already three reasons to dismiss the theory that Halbertsma would have been involved in the creation of the OLB.

Even über-hoaxtheorist Jensma did not consider Halbertsma a serious candidate for the job.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

And no, I didn't recieve news about the paper and ink study yet.

Don't worry, you'll know only a few hours later than me.

Edited by Abramelin

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Downfall?!

You can’t be serious. Six or Seven years over 4200 years? Don't you think you are now grasping at straws?

The Oera Linda Book uses the Date of 2193/2194 as the start of their calendar. If you examine the OLB like I did and you find all the verifiable facts to be correct, then you must assume that the date is also pretty accurate. Add to this the demise of the Akkadian Empire (2193 BC), the Harrapan Urban Civilization (c. 2200 BC), The Old Kingdom in Egypt (c. 2200BC), Ancient cultures in China (c. 2200 BC), all the tsunami and flood evidence I gave earlier today (c. 2200 BC), etc. etc.

Who's the one who has presented the date of 2193/2194 as fact? That would be you.

Who's the one who has NOT presented any evidence supporting that specific date? Again, that would be you.

Who's the one who is AGAIN presenting the above dates, which have been gone over before, as established fact? Once again, that would be you.

Surely you do not expect all these archaeological dates to be accurate to the exact year.

No, I'd consider them to be gross generalizations and have said so many, MANY times in this thread. You on the other hand have attempted, time and time again, to present them as verifiable fact supporting the specific date of 2193/2194. THEY'RE NOT.

I am certain you have it in you to up your analytical skills a notch or two.

I am certain YOU have it within you to be relevant to the facts, NOW would be a great time for you to do so. :yes:

cormac

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Thread cleaned

Can we keep the discussion civil and respectful please.

Thank you.

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I must have missed all the fun exploring Vienna...

:hmm:

Why don't you re-post on your new weblog, Abe?

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I must have missed all the fun exploring Vienna...

:hmm:

Why don't you re-post on your new weblog, Abe?

* snip *

Anyway, it was all about a book written by Arthur de Gobineau, and I saw it as a possible source of the Three Races (yes indeedy) as described in the OLB.

He also said that the people living in the north of India were of 'the yellow race'. You will remember the Finda - the yellow race according to the OLB - living near (coming from) the Himalaya.

And in case this post will be removed too, this is what I also posted:

Hitler and Nazism borrowed much of Gobineau's ideology, though Gobineau himself was not anti-Semitic, and may even be characterised as philo-Semitic. Gobineau wrote positively about the Jews, including the long eulogy to the Jews in his Essai sur l'inégalité des races, describing them as "a strong, a free, an intelligent people".[7] When the Nazis adopted Gobineau's theories, they were forced to edit his work extensively to make it conform to their views, much as they did in the case of Nietzsche.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_de_Gobineau

+++++++++

OK, sorry, but what happened this evening bothers me a lot...

I have called you, Otharus, and Alewyn 'true believers', but never in my dreams would I have accused the two of you or anyone else believing in the OLB of being neo-Nazis just because the Nazis abused the OLB to suit their perverse ideology.

Like I never accused anyone believing in the writings of Helen Blavatsky of being a racist. And she sure as hell was.

.

Edited by Saru
Removed personal attack

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You have well observed, that the OLB dating (I call it AT = Atland) ties in with the known date of the campaign of Alexander the Great. Similarly the OLB dating of the visit of Ulysses to Walhallagara (burchtfam Kalip = Calypso) lines up with the end of the Trojan war (traditionally ca. 1180) 1005 years after Atland had sunken (2193 - 1005 = 1188). This does not proof, that the dates of the OLB are correct, but that the author used known dates for his story. Every student of the so called Latin Schools knew these dates.

Troy was ruled by Heracleid dynasty, for 505 years until the time of Candaules. The generation before the Trojan War, Heracles captured Troy and killed Laomedon and his sons, except for young Priam. Priam later became king and during his reign, the Greeks invaded and captured Troy, in the Trojan War, 1193–1183 BCE, most recently dated to 1188 BCE.

s. http://www.hector.com/listingview.php?listingID=14.

Thank you Knul.

You have just confirmed what I have been saying all along: The date of 1188 BC used by the OLB was not known in the 19th century. The website you quote says very clearly:"MOST RECENTLY DATED TO 1188 BCE".

In the 19th century, Troy was regarded as a myth. It was only discovered after the OLB and was only dated late in the 20th century.

Now tell me: How did the OLB get this spot on?

This also confirms the date of 2193 BC.

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Etymology

From Kaleva +‎ -la = dwelling place of Kaleva (or, of the descendants of Kaleva).

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Kalevala#Etymology

It might also have something to do with "blacksmith"

"KALEVA, fictional ancestor or "father" of several personalities, male and female, mostly "Kaleva sons....." and read on.

http://books.google.nl/books?id=FRoMUZQmx_MC&pg=PA393&lpg=PA393&dq=kalevala+etymology&source=bl&ots=CimsL3QpAD&sig=R4_Uh0E4AI8TxbQtnOxOIwZaHlw&hl=nl&ei=T9LDTsS4NYb_-ga366j4DQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=kalevala%20etymology&f=false

Kaleva, some obsure mythical giant.

But black also comes up for Kali, as does time and death.

Blacksmith is unusual, because to me, that relates to Hephaestus, often said to have really been a meteorite, as the iron itself was the God, the smith. He was thrown out of Heaven by Hera is also alluding to a fall from the skies.

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Maybe ALewyn has taken some liberty with his precise date but in general, it's fairly obvious some big changes were occurring, possible impacts, famine, drying out of the Sahara's last green areas, downfalls of Empires and cultures, great floods in China, all around this date.

Abe, I wouldn't worry about it too much.

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I am certain YOU have it within you to be relevant to the facts, NOW would be a great time for you to do so. :yes:

cormac

Perhaps you would be so kind as to share the facts with us and I could then perhaps try "to be relevant" to them.

Edited by Alewyn

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Maybe ALewyn has taken some liberty with his precise date but in general, it's fairly obvious some big changes were occurring, possible impacts, famine, drying out of the Sahara's last green areas, downfalls of Empires and cultures, great floods in China, all around this date.

Abe, I wouldn't worry about it too much.

No Puzzler, I have not taken liberty with the date. It is the date that the OLB gives as the start of its calendar.

I have verified it, inter alia, through the campaigns of Alexander, the sacking of Troy, Biblical chronology, the Manhattan Tsunami, the Battle of Salamis and a host of other historical facts. You have my book - check it out.

Edit:

The question is not whether the date is right. I think both Abramelin and Knul accept the date. Knull said as much a few posts back. Abramelin said some time ago that the date was known in the 19th century. Many people also claimed that the person(s)who created the book used Biblical chronology and/or the Frisian Volksalmanak (National Calendar) of the time.

The question is really where did the authors get it from and, more importantly, when?

Edited by Alewyn

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Thank you Knul.

You have just confirmed what I have been saying all along: The date of 1188 BC used by the OLB was not known in the 19th century. The website you quote says very clearly:"MOST RECENTLY DATED TO 1188 BCE".

In the 19th century, Troy was regarded as a myth. It was only discovered after the OLB and was only dated late in the 20th century.

Now tell me: How did the OLB get this spot on?

This also confirms the date of 2193 BC.

The Trojan War has been dated as soon as the text of Homer became known, even in Roman times. In the 16th and 17th century it was thought, that the Trojan War happened in the 12th century BC. In the 19th century ca. 1180 BC was generally accepted. Dating was based on literary evidence, not on archeology. The first indications, that Troje could be found at Hissarlik date back to 1822, fifty years before Schliemann started his excavations. Excavations showed, that the myth of the Trojan War might have an historical basis.

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Thank you Knul.

You have just confirmed what I have been saying all along: The date of 1188 BC used by the OLB was not known in the 19th century. The website you quote says very clearly:"MOST RECENTLY DATED TO 1188 BCE".

In the 19th century, Troy was regarded as a myth. It was only discovered after the OLB and was only dated late in the 20th century.

Now tell me: How did the OLB get this spot on?

This also confirms the date of 2193 BC.

I'll tell you what happened:

This is what Knul posted:

Troy was ruled by Heracleid dynasty, for 505 years until the time of Candaules. The generation before the Trojan War, Heracles captured Troy and killed Laomedon and his sons, except for young Priam. Priam later became king and during his reign, the Greeks invaded and captured Troy, in the Trojan War, 1193–1183 BCE, most recently dated to 1188 BCE.

http://www.hector.com/listingview.php?listingID=14.

This is what I found:

Those who believe that the stories of the Trojan War are derived from a specific historical conflict usually date it to the 12th or 11th centuries BC, often preferring the dates given by Eratosthenes, 1194–1184 BC, which roughly corresponds with archaeological evidence of a catastrophic burning of Troy VIIa.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trojan_War

The date of Trojan War is traditionally placed in the beginning of the twelfth century before the present era: this tradition goes back to Eratosthenes, a Greek scholar in the employ of Ptolemy III Euergetes in the third pre-Christian century. He calculated that the last year of the ten-year-long siege of Troy fell in the year that in the modern calendar corresponds to -1183.

http://www.varchive.org/dag/cogrant.htm

Later Greeks dated the Trojan War as follows: 1184 B.C. (Eratosthenes), 1209/8 B.C. (the Parian Marble), ca. 1250 B.C. (Herodotus), and 1334/3 B.C. (Douris). Troy VIIa perished in a general conflagration which destroyed both the buildings within the citadel and those outside.

http://projectsx.dartmouth.edu/history/bronze_age/lessons/les/27.html

The scientists then searched for potential dates that satisfied all these astronomical references close to the fall of Troy, which has over the centuries been estimated to have occurred between roughly 1250 to 1115 B.C. From these 135 years, they found just one date satisfied all the references — April 16, 1178 B.C., the same date as the proposed eclipse.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25337041/ns/technology_and_science-science/t/odysseus-return-trojan-war-dated/

So if you follow Eratosthenes, 1194–1184 BC, take the middle, you get 1189 BC (and not 1188 BC as Knul said, based on OLB chronology because the date of the OLB flood is 2194 BC, not 2193 BC).

Anyway, the point is that if in the 19th century you take the middle of Eratosthenes' estimates, you get 1189 BC.

You might want to ask why the creators of the OLB picked out Eratosthenes dates? Well, that's what I would have done, knowing this ancient Greek calculated the circumference of the Earth and came to a number that was almost correct.

.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Btw, as a reminder, this is from the "Friesche Volksalmanak from 1839:

2193BC-FriescheVolksalmanak-1839.jpg

The first underlined lines says: "The year after the birth of our Lord Jesus Christ: 1839"

The second underlined line says: "Since the Flood: 4032"

1839-4032=2193 / no year zero, so it becomes 2194 BC

+++++++++++

EDIT:

I just found a list of Friesche VolksAlmanakken (for every year from 1836 to 1899):

http://www.wumkes.nl/periodiek/index.php?per=fa

.

Edited by Abramelin

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1839-4032=2193 / no year zero, so it becomes 2194 BC

Good. So, from your post and that of Knul, can we now accept that the OLB’s dates of 2193 BC/2194 BC and 1188 BC are correct – regardless of whether the OLB is authentic or a hoax.

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Good. So, from your post and that of Knul, can we now accept that the OLBs dates of 2193 BC/2194 BC and 1188 BC are correct regardless of whether the OLB is authentic or a hoax.

In what way you mean 'correct'?

I have only shown you where they got the 2194 BC date from (Friesche Volksalmanak), and where they got the date of the Troyan War from (Eratosthenes).

A bit extra about Eratosthenes:

Chronography became a discipline of its own during the Alexandrian age. Herodotus and Thucydides still reckoned the remote past by generations. But from 300 B.C. onward learned men of Alexandria attempted to assign more or less precise dates for notable events. Homeric scholars dated the fall of Troy 407 years prior to the first Olympic games in 776 B.C., i.e., 1184 B.C. Eratosthenes of Cyrene asserted that this was the first datable event of human history, giving an unmistakable demarcation line between mythology and history.

http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=7823657

Btw, I wouldn't be surprized if the 2194 BC date for the submergence of Aldland was the same date as the date calculated for the Deucalion Flood by this same Eratosthenes.

Up tp now all I found is this:

The fourth, Deucalions flood, occurred in the Bronze age, around 2200 BC.

http://colinwilsonworld.co.uk/cntr8.aspx

But I don't know what to think of that site....

.

Edited by Abramelin

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I found a date for the Ogyges Flood as calculated by the Roman Varro:

The area outside of Attica including Boeotia was called by some ancient sources Graiki,the region where is mentioned the first worldwide flood in Greek mythology,the deluge of Ogyges.The Ogygian deluge, occurred during his reign and derives its name from him,though some sources regard it as a local flood, such as an inundation of Lake Copais, a large lake once in the center of Boeotia.[5] Other sources see it as a flood associated with Attica.[6] This latter view was accepted by Africanus, who says "that great and first flood occurred in Attica, when Phoroneus was king of Argos, as Acusilaus relates.

When this deluge has been considered global, a similarity is noticed with Noah's flood in the Bible. Various dates have been assigned to the event, including 9500 BCE (Plato),[7] 2136 BCE (Varro), and 1796 BCE (Africanus).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogyges

2136 BC.

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The Trojan War has been dated as soon as the text of Homer became known, even in Roman times. In the 16th and 17th century it was thought, that the Trojan War happened in the 12th century BC. In the 19th century ca. 1180 BC was generally accepted. Dating was based on literary evidence, not on archeology. The first indications, that Troje could be found at Hissarlik date back to 1822, fifty years before Schliemann started his excavations. Excavations showed, that the myth of the Trojan War might have an historical basis.

This is exactly my point. The excavations that showed that Troy was not a myth, started after the discovery of the OLB.

Edit:

This is what Wikipedia has to say:

"Around 1870 it was generally agreed in Western Europe that the Trojan War never had happened and Troy never existed."

Edited by Alewyn

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It shows, that the time frame of the OLB complies with what was known in the mid 19th century like the geography (Iran) of the OLB complies with what was known in the mid 19th century like the theology and philosophy (Descartes) comply with the state of the art in mid 19th century, the archeology (pile dwellings) comply, knowledge about Oldfrisian texts published by the Frisian Society comply, abolition of slavery complies, modern Dutch and English words and expressions as used in mid 19th century, and so on. The OLB even reflects the existance of the North-Hollands Canal (1825). As all this was not known in 1256 (Hidde) or 803 (Liko) it is reasonable to suppose, that the OLB was written in the mid 19th century. All this was not available in mediaeval sources.

Edited by Knul

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