[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood

[Abramelin]

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/Specials/UNESCO-World_Heritage/News/Lake_dwellings_make_world_heritage_list_.html?cid=30542748

It is remarkable that the presence of these lake dwellings, as determined by archaeologists, fit exactly in with the time of Apollonia’s journey up the Rheine in ca 530 BC as described in the OLB. Had she made her journey a hundred years later (say, 400 BC), she may not have seen them!

Secondly, although these pile dwellings were discovered in 1854, they did not have the technology in the 19th century to date them. This only became available in the second half of the 20th century. The OLB is right once again. How does the “Hoax Theory” account for this?

This something you quoted in that post:

The prehistoric lake dwellings of the alpine region, including Switzerland, provide a unique glimpse of life in the earliest agricultural settlements from 5,000 to 500 BC.

Had the OLB given a date of 2000 BC, it would have been right too.

[Otharus]

The key is that a Van Lennep mentions pole houses 15 years before they were discovered in Switzerland.

One of the arguments for the OLB is that it mentions these pole houses "which were not known before then", but Van Lennep already did 15 years before the manuscript shows up for the first time.

I don't think Van Lennep just invented them.

Exactly. Van Lennep must have had a source.

What source?

Possibly oral tradition, but based on what?

That the manuscript showed up for the first time 15 years after Van Lennep's publication does not mean it did not exist before he published.

Anyway, the question was if Van Lennep could be the source for OLB's pole-houses.

The answer: not likely.

It's actually more probable that it's the other way around, as I have argued.

[Abramelin]

I forgot to say the "Narvel/Nervel Sea" was the old Germanic name for the Mediterranean.

The "Mittel See" is the German translation of the Medieval latin word Mediteranean.

I have posted about it.

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EDIT:

Puzz posted that book by Norwich caled "Mittel Sea".

I hope you all know it's a novel.

Anyone read it yet, and what his references are?

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Edited November 28, 2011 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

Exactly. Van Lennep must have had a source.

What source?

Possibly oral tradition, but based on what?

That the manuscript showed up for the first time 15 years after Van Lennep's publication does not mean it did not exist before he published.

Anyway, the question was if Van Lennep could be the source for OLB's pole-houses.

The answer: not likely.

It's actually more probable that it's the other way around, as I have argued.

There we go again: I said yesterday, "why did he leave out those mountains the OLB talks about?". The Netherlands is a flat country, no mountains here.

And my point about Van Lennep was that - contrary what you read about the OLB all over the internet - pole houses were apparently known by Dutch people before the OLB showed up.

[Otharus]

Actually, he didn't.

As I have shown you he mentions the Marezaten a couple of times as close neighbours of the Batavians, the Batavians who lived on 'an island' (between the rivers Rhine and Maas). But if you read his book about ancient Dutch history, you'll see he actually talks about the Batavians (he says something like they must have learned the art from beavers, lol).

OK, so Van Lennep in 1838 described Batavians with pole-houses in what is now Holland (in a history based novel), that were never found and for which there is no known source.

And OLB (that according to Cornelis OL and witnesses existed in 1848 or earlier) describes Lake- or Marshdwellers with pole-houses in nowaday Switserland, of which in 1853 archaeological evidence was found.

This means that, with the data we have now, OLB can only be a hoax if it was created after 1853, which can only be true if Cornelis Over de Linden lied consequently during the last years of his life, even to his own grandchildren. It also means that all witnesses (some under oath and some respected schoolmasters) lied as well.

A characteristic of paranoid conspiracy theories is that they are based on distrust.

Cornelis Over de Linden is not guilty of lying until proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

There is still too much doubt to not give him the benefit of it.

(Not in Knul's mind, I know.)

Edited November 28, 2011 by Otharus

[Abramelin]

OK, so Van Lennep in 1838 described Batavians with pole-houses in what is now Holland (in a history based novel), that were never found and for which there is no known source.

And OLB (that according to Cornelis OL and witnesses existed in 1848 or earlier) describes Lake- or Marshdwellers with pole-houses in nowaday Switserland, of which in 1853 archaeological evidence was found.

This means that, with the data we have now, OLB can only be a hoax if it was created after 1853, which can only be true if Cornelis Over de Linden lied consequently during the last years of his life, even to his own grandchildren. It also means that all witnesses (some under oath and some respected schoolmasters) lied as well.

A characteristic of paranoid conspiracy theories is that they are based on distrust.

Cornelis Over de Linden is not guilty of lying until proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

There is still too much doubt to not give him the benefit of it.

(Not in Knul's mind, I know.)

Van Lennep mentions (1838) the area the Marezaten lived in, an area criscrossed by streams, pools, mud and so on, a marshy place.

Also that they lived as close neighbours of the Batavians. In another Dutch source (1754 if I remember well from yesterday, I'll look it up) it is even suggested a lot of these people, like the Marsaten and Menapi all lived on the same island as the Batavians did.

Personally I think pole houses where known here in The Netherlands because their remnants had been found, but the people back then could not date them.

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Edited November 28, 2011 by Abramelin

[Otharus]

And my point about Van Lennep was that - contrary what you read about the OLB all over the internet - pole houses were apparently known by Dutch people before the OLB showed up.

If the concept of pole-houses was only known in Holland before the remains were found in Switzerland, the question remains: how did the Dutch know?

Possibly from a hidden manuscript?

Did Cornelis' forefathers talk about it (as according to witnesses his father did)?

Edited November 28, 2011 by Otharus

[Abramelin]

If the concept of pole-houses was only known in Holland before the remains were found in Switzerland, the question remains: how did the Dutch know?

Possibly from a hidden manuscript?

Did Cornelis' forefathers talk about it (as according to witnesses his father did)?

Maybe because the Dutch used and use to live in swampy marshy areas and were still building pole houses up to recent times?

The Dutch still built pole houses in the 17th century, and rather close to where you live Otharus:

http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Kets

http://buroadrichem.nl/media/19828/bomenplan%20marken%202%20ontstaansgeschiedenis%20en%20enquete%20deel%203%20visie%20algemeen.pdf

And I think I won't have to tell you about how Amsterdam was built....

+++

Recent stilt houses in Marken:

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Edited November 28, 2011 by Abramelin

[The Puzzler]

I already showed you that Van Lennep mentions the "Middle Sea" in the meaning of Mediterranean in his book, 1838.

And also that in an other of his books he talks about the Frisian Middle Sea.

I know, I was responding to your post.

.......and to me that quite clearly shows that the Frisian places are not the one and only.

As I mentioned before Dutch sailors had a habit of naming everywhere after their own, I'd guess early Dutch sailors actually utilised Frisian sailing methods and known history, since they were really the sailors, so imo, it could have actually been an older trait than recent Dutch sailors, to name places after places already named in the Netherlands and Frisia.

I'd think I was in Holland if I went to Western Australia there is so many Dutch name places c/o them 'discovering' our West Coast.

Even New York was once New Amsterdam. The Indies above Australia, Batavia. All these names are from originals and I believe this may have been occurring way before Dutch sailors started doing it.

-----------------------

Artemis is always shown in a short tunic. I even think her name is form of skauta - shooter, maybe skauta miss - young shooter/archer girl. UNmarried and virginal.

Pretty flashy gear for these nobodies who did nothing.

http://freepages.history.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~catshaman/s10klader/0klader2.htm

[The Puzzler]

Maybe because the Dutch used and use to live in swampy marshy areas and were still building pole houses up to recent times?

The Dutch still built pole houses in the 17th century, and rather close to where you live Otharus:

http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Kets

http://buroadrichem.nl/media/19828/bomenplan%20marken%202%20ontstaansgeschiedenis%20en%20enquete%20deel%203%20visie%20algemeen.pdf

And I think I won't have to tell you about how Amsterdam was built....

+++

.

Yeah, I think this whole thing about van lennip's mention of pole houses in Netherlands is a bit of a nothing actually, so what, he mentions pole houses in Netherlands and a common name for people who lived near them. It doesn't mean it had anything to do with Switzerland.

[Abramelin]

The problem with this OLB "Middel Se" (Middle Sea) being the Mediterranean is, like I have said many times, that it was located "into the direction of the evening", while the "Aster Se" (East Sea/Baltic) was "in the direction of the morning".

Clearly the OLB is talking about Northern Europe.

The Med is and was in the south.

But yes, I know, Alewyn tries to explain this little 'error' by a change in the earth's tilt caused by the impact of an asteroid/comet around 2200 BC.

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Edited November 28, 2011 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

Yeah, I think this whole thing about van lennip's mention of pole houses in Netherlands is a bit of a nothing actually, so what, he mentions pole houses in Netherlands and a common name for people who lived near them. It doesn't mean it had anything to do with Switzerland.

The point is that these pole houses WERE KNOWN.

The Dutch fkg built them for ages!

Everywhere on the internet we read - in connection with the OLB - that it was only at 1854 that the first remnants of these houses were discovered, and that that alone would prove the OLB.

We here had Marsaten/Marezaten (or "Marsacii" as Pliny called them) in the Netherlands, they lived in marshy areas, and no Pliny and no Tacitus ever mentiones a tribe near the Helvetii living in pole houses near/in marshes/lakes, or calls them Marsaten/Marsacii.

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Edited November 28, 2011 by Abramelin

[Otharus]

So, suppose the OLB was fabricated in the 19th century, what do you think would be more likely:

- that is was finished after 1853, which means Over de Linden et al lied

or:

- that the author(s) guessed right placing pole-houses in Switzerland, like they guessed right (and used only correct sources) in a huge load of cases that we have already identified (we should make an inventory!)

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

It is also possible - and in my perception more likely - that Apollánja's report is authentic.

[Abramelin]

So, suppose the OLB was fabricated in the 19th century, what do you think would be more likely:

- that is was finished after 1853, which means Over de Linden et al lied

or:

- that the author(s) guessed right placing pole-houses in Switzerland, like they guessed right (and used only correct sources) in a huge load of cases that we have already identified (we should make an inventory!)

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

It is also possible - and in my perception more likely - that Apollánja's report is authentic.

I think it was finished after 1853, and the writers had added what was discovered in Switzerland and combined it what was already known and suggested of the Marsaten who lived in the Netherlands.

They knew it would 'prove' the OLB.

[Abramelin]

Btw, has any of you seen the coat of arms of Marken (that's where those pics of stilt houses came from)?

You'll remember the story of 3-400 BC in the OLB of a flood that flooded many area in the north of the Netherlands and so on, and made "the black people" (Lyda's people) move south from where they lived, Alkmaar:

"Fryasburgt, at Texland, was the only one found uninjured, but all the land to the north was sunk under the sea, and has never been recovered.

At the mouth of the Flymeer, as we were told, thirty salt swamps were found, consisting of the forest and the ground that had been swept away. At Westflyland there were fifty. The canal which had run across the land from Alderga was filled up with sand and destroyed. The seafaring people and other travellers who were at home had saved themselves, their goods, and their relations upon their ships. But the black people at Lydasburgt and Alkmarum had done the same; and as they went south they saved many girls, and as no one came to claim them, they took them for their wives."

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Edited November 28, 2011 by Abramelin

[Alewyn]

I think it was finished after 1853, and the writers had added what was discovered in Switzerland and combined it what was already known and suggested of the Marsaten who lived in the Netherlands.

They knew it would 'prove' the OLB.

Who cares what you think.. Stick to the facts.

The Oera Linda Book says:

1. Some people in the region of Switzerland lived on piles on the lakes, and

2. Apollonia saw these in c. 530 BC.

Archaeological evidence says:

1. Pile dwellings was first discovered in Switzerland in 1854, and

2. These Swiss pile dwellings dates from 5000 BC to 500 BC. (dated late 20th / early 21st century)

These archaeological dates were not known in the 19th century; therein lies the greater portion of the proof that these were not dreamed up by some 19th century joker.

[Otharus]

The problem with this OLB "Middel Se" (Middle Sea) being the Mediterranean is, like I have said many times, that it was located "into the direction of the evening", while the "Aster Se" (East Sea/Baltic) was "in the direction of the morning".

Clearly the OLB is talking about Northern Europe.

The Med is and was in the south.

In the mind of a Frisian sailor, the old-Fryan coastline would roughly have been from the utter (North-) east to the utter (South-) west; where the Middelsea starts (at Gibraltar's gate).

See Map.

[Abramelin]

Who cares what you think.. Stick to the facts.

The Oera Linda Book says:

1. Some people in the region of Switzerland lived on piles on the lakes, and

2. Apollonia saw these in c. 530 BC.

Archaeological evidence says:

1. Pile dwellings was first discovered in Switzerland in 1854, and

2. These Swiss pile dwellings dates from 5000 BC to 500 BC. (dated late 20th / early 21st century)

These archaeological dates were not known in the 19th century; therein lies the greater portion of the proof that these were not dreamed up by some 19th century joker.

You don't have to care for what I think.

Only that you'll not forget: they had more than time enough to add the Swiss discovery to the manuscript to give it some sort of 'proof' of its authenticity.

You only have a couple of witnesses who claimed to have known of the manuscript before it was published. Did they also claim it was the complete manuscript? No, they didn't because they didn't know.

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Edited November 28, 2011 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

In the mind of a Frisian sailor, the old-Fryan coastline would roughly have been from the utter (North-) east to the utter (South-) west; where the Middelsea starts (at Gibraltar's gate).

See Map.

The entrance of the Med is south-west, the Med itself is at the south.

Btw, the east, the "Aster Se" would be where we now have the "Frisches Haff". It's not all the way to the Botnic as you suggest with your map.

"Both this term and the earlier Polish name Zatoka Fryska[2] translate "Frisian Bay"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vistula_Lagoon

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Edited November 28, 2011 by Abramelin

[Alewyn]

The problem with this OLB "Middel Se" (Middle Sea) being the Mediterranean is, like I have said many times, that it was located "into the direction of the evening", while the "Aster Se" (East Sea/Baltic) was "in the direction of the morning".

Clearly the OLB is talking about Northern Europe.

The Med is and was in the south.

But yes, I know, Alewyn tries to explain this little 'error' by a change in the earth's tilt caused by the impact of an asteroid/comet around 2200 BC.

.

It is no error and and I am not "trying to explain" it - I have given ample scientific and historical proof to support my stance.

If you cannot even get your head around the Pile Dwellings in Switzerland, how on earth do you expect to follow an argument that is somewhat more complex.

[Alewyn]

You don't have to care for what I think.

Only that you'll not forget: they had more than time enough to add the Swiss discovery to the manuscript to add some sort of 'proof' of he authenticity.

You only have a couple of witnesses who claimed to have known of the manuscript before it was published. Did they also claim it was the complete manuscript? No, they didn't.

What about the date?

[Abramelin]

What about the date?

5000-500 BC.

I already have seen another date, 5000-850 BC.

[Abramelin]

It is no error and and I am not "trying to explain" it - I have given ample scientific and historical proof to support my stance.

If you cannot even get your head around the Pile Dwellings in Switzerland, how on earth do you expect to follow an argument that is somewhat more complex.

I know how you tried to explain it, and you have not a shred of proof the earth changed its tilt around 2200 BC because of an impact.

But can YOU get your head around this: the pole houses were found in Switzerland. The OLB Marsaten lived north or north-west of these Swiss ("Swetsar").

First in a row you had the Marsaten who lived in pole houses, THEN you got the Swetsar who lived nearest the Heinde Krekalander (Italy).

Just a tiny detail.

"Above the Rhine among the mountains I have seen Marsaten. The Marsaten are people who live on the lakes. Their houses are built upon poles, for protection from the wild beasts and wicked people. There are wolves, bears, and horrible lions. Then come the Swiss, the nearest to the frontiers of the distant Italians, the followers of Kalta and the savage Twiskar, all greedy for robbery and booty."

OK, so they were not a people called "Marsaten", it was nothing but a name like "lumberjacks" without there being a people called "The Lumberjacks of Lumberjack Nation".

In 1853 the Swiss discovered the houses of these people who lived on lakes, in marshes and so on.

No witnes ever claimed to have read the OLB because they couldn't read it.

Anyone could have added anything before the OLB finally got published.

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EDIT:

This is about the German Bodensee which is indeed north of the Swiss:

The archaeological open air museum is laid out over a large area with reconstructions of lake pile dwellings from 4000 BC to 850 BC. The museum was opened in 1922 with various reconstructions being added up until the present day.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pfahlbaumuseum_Unteruhldingen

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Edited November 28, 2011 by Abramelin

[The Puzzler]

The Med. is a bit of tricky one but to me, if the Middel Sea is in Frisia it seems very odd THAT is their boundary in the West.

Wralda's Sea would have been the North Sea and down the English Channel, or did they suddenly stop at the boundary of Frisian land, how then, do they possess Britain? And when they sail anywhere West of the Middel Sea this land and sea area is not theirs?? Whose is it?

I don't think this one sentence can justify so many other mentions of the Middel Sea being what appears to be the Med.

Neef Teunis coasted through the straits to the Mediterranean Sea. When Atland was submerged there was much suffering also on the shores of the Mediterranean, on which account many of Finda’s people, Krekalanders, and people from Lyda’s land, came to us. On the other hand, many of our people went to Lyda’s land. The result of all this was that the Krekalanders far and wide were lost to the superintendence of the mother. Teunis had reckoned on this, and had therefore wished to find there a good haven from which he might go and serve under the rich princes; but as his fleet and his people had such a shattered appearance, the inhabitants on the coasts thought that they were pirates, and drove them away. At last they arrived at the Phœnician coast, one hundred and ninety-three years after Atland was submerged. Near the coast they found an island with two deep bays, so that there appeared to be three islands. In the middle one they established themselves, and afterwards built a city wall round the place. Then they wanted to give it a name, but disagreed about it. Some wanted to call it Fryasburgt, others Neeftunia; but the Magyars and Finns begged that it might be called Thyrhisburgt.

Thyr was the name of one of their idols, and it was upon his feast-day that they had landed there; and in return they offered to recognise Teunis as their perpetual king. Teunis let himself be persuaded, and the others would not make any quarrel about it. When they were well established, they sent some old seamen and Magyars on an expedition as far as the town of Sidon;

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#av

Unless you don't actually think they mean Tyre and the Phoenician coast and Sidon. Even in the original OLB text, it's hard to make this fit anywhere other than the Mediterranean if you ask me, even if the description does appear to be wrong, which could be right, maybe we just don't get the context of the description.

The end of the Med. at the straits could be West to them. If you drew a line straight south from Frisia, which comes out at about Marseilles - the end of the Med. is actually West of this line.

[Abramelin]

The Med. is a bit of tricky one but to me, if the Middel Sea is in Frisia it seems very odd THAT is their boundary in the West.

Wralda's Sea would have been the North Sea and down the English Channel, or did they suddenly stop at the boundary of Frisian land, how then, do they possess Britain? And when they sail anywhere West of the Middel Sea this land and sea area is not theirs?? Whose is it?

I don't think this one sentence can justify so many other mentions of the Middel Sea being what appears to be the Med.

Neef Teunis coasted through the straits to the Mediterranean Sea. When Atland was submerged there was much suffering also on the shores of the Mediterranean, on which account many of Finda’s people, Krekalanders, and people from Lyda’s land, came to us. On the other hand, many of our people went to Lyda’s land. The result of all this was that the Krekalanders far and wide were lost to the superintendence of the mother. Teunis had reckoned on this, and had therefore wished to find there a good haven from which he might go and serve under the rich princes; but as his fleet and his people had such a shattered appearance, the inhabitants on the coasts thought that they were pirates, and drove them away. At last they arrived at the Phœnician coast, one hundred and ninety-three years after Atland was submerged. Near the coast they found an island with two deep bays, so that there appeared to be three islands. In the middle one they established themselves, and afterwards built a city wall round the place. Then they wanted to give it a name, but disagreed about it. Some wanted to call it Fryasburgt, others Neeftunia; but the Magyars and Finns begged that it might be called Thyrhisburgt.

Thyr was the name of one of their idols, and it was upon his feast-day that they had landed there; and in return they offered to recognise Teunis as their perpetual king. Teunis let himself be persuaded, and the others would not make any quarrel about it. When they were well established, they sent some old seamen and Magyars on an expedition as far as the town of Sidon;

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#av

Unless you don't actually think they mean Tyre and the Phoenician coast and Sidon. Even in the original OLB text, it's hard to make this fit anywhere other than the Mediterranean if you ask me, even if the description does appear to be wrong, which could be right, maybe we just don't get the context of the description.

The end of the Med. at the straits could be West to them. If you drew a line straight south from Frisia, which comes out at about Marseilles - the end of the Med. is actually West of this line.

- It's not that odd: at some point during medieval times this Frisian Middel Sea was indeed a boundery.

- Brittain was a penal colony west of Wralda's Sea, the North Sea. They didn't consider it part of their territory, they used it to dump people who they didn't want in their empire on the European mainland.

- They said the Middel Sea was at the west ("evening"), they didn't say the entrance of the Middle Sea was at the west.

- They mixed local toponyms with stories about Latin/Greek toponyms in or around the Med. So, there was a Frisian Middle Sea, and they simply mixed that one with the Middle Sea we now know of : the Mediterranean.