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Riaan

[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood

11,638 posts in this topic

That is just "another coincidence"... right?

There are too many "coincidences" in this whole OLB thing.

Yes, there is alot. Well, you know what? I think it's quite possible that this JH Halbertsma did write it. I've been following him through as you have been mentioning him but there was so much being added indepth intricicies of a hoax theory it was hard to sort out what he was all about. I've been thinking long and hard lately, hence my few posts, more just deciding...

After all this time I am not convinced this OLB is genuine. It appears too contrived to me, information added for no reason to co-incidently explain connections - just too contrived, look that word up if you don't know it. My old dictionary: devised, invented, managed, artificed. Too set up, too planned.

For that reason it has me constantly challenging it's authenticity.

Now, on the other hand, statements by Ottema seem to really lean towards it's authenticity in age. But people are clever and I don't think it would have been imposible to get hold of old ink and/or paper, if you knew the right people and were in the right circles. So I think it's possible that is is written recently, on and using older paper and ink.

----------------

I found this info today of JH Halbertsma, so simple after all the other stuff. You might recall I said I thought Gysbert Japiex could have written the OLB but then I decided with the mention of 1806 he might be too early but look who Halbertsma was a fan of...needless to say this has gone a long way to have me thinking that Halbertsma did indeed write it. Not only that I think he shows inclinations to have wanted this information to be out there, being a Christian Mennonite imo is also a reason for his motives. He had also had a previous attempt at trying to show origins. He knew he could influence Frisian life.

Halbertsma, Justus Hiddes (1789-1869)

Justus Hiddes Halbertsma, born 23 October 1789, at Grouw, died 14 February 1869 at Deventer, served as Mennonite pastor at Bolsward 1814-1821, and Deventer 1821-1856, when he resigned to devote himself to writing. One of his works was De Doopsgezinden en Hunne herkomst (Deventer, 1843), in which he attempted to prove a Waldensian origin for the Mennonites. The book is of value for its information on the liberal ideas of Halbertsma and many Mennonites of his time. The book also contained some sermons, which were sharply criticized by Samuel Muller in the Dutch periodical Vaderlandsche Letteroefeningen of 1843 and 1844 (reprint, Beoordeeling van eenige Kerkredenen van H. H., Amsterdam, 1844).

Halbertsma studied the Nordic languages, especially his native Frisian, and became a specialist on Gysbert Japiex (1603-1666), a Frisian poet. He cooperated with his brothers Eeltje, who was a physician in Grouw, and Tjalling, in publishing Frisian verse and tales, which were eagerly read and thus influenced Frisian life. He also translated the Gospel of Matthew into Frisian (1858). The complete Frisian works of the Halbertsma brothers were published in 1871 titled Rimen en Teltsjes (5th ed., Leeuwarden, 1918).

http://www.gameo.org/encyclopedia/contents/halbertsma_justus_hiddes_1789_1869

Haverschmidt probably had a hand in it too.

I'll call them H & H.

------------

In saying that, I do think ALOT of the story is based in truth, of what he knew to be Frisian history and possible knowledge of the real Over de Linden genealogy from information given by the Grandfather, who was the real instigator behind Cornelius even having it in the start.

I actually believe much of it at the same time, I think it's possible it can be alot of truth in it, of the Frisian history. It's like Plato wrote Atlantis "strange but true".

I think Cornelius was actually oblivious to it all. 1867 he received it. Halbertsma died 2 years later. C's grandfather may have had it first, given to him by Halbertsma (and Haverschmidt) after the 3 of them created it.

Basically it was written by H & H just prior to 1867 - given or written for his grandfather even by the 2 men, that's why the Linden name is used, with permission from grandfather. One of my first posts here had grandfather as a suspect and often my first gut feelings are right.

Grandfather and H & H organised this OLB book, and subsequently it was passed onto Cornelius, unaware it was a created book, therefore he did not lie at all - he would have genuinely thought it was what he was told it was.

Anyone got an opinion on that?

Edited by The Puzzler

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Yes, there is alot. Well, you know what? I think it's quite possible that this JH Halbertsma did write it. I've been following him through as you have been mentioning him but there was so much being added indepth intricicies of a hoax theory it was hard to sort out what he was all about. I've been thinking long and hard lately, hence my few posts, more just deciding...

After all this time I am not convinced this OLB is genuine. It appears too contrived to me, information added for no reason to co-incidently explain connections - just too contrived, look that word up if you don't know it. My old dictionary: devised, invented, managed, artificed. Too set up, too planned.

For that reason it has me constantly challenging it's authenticity.

Now, on the other hand, statements by Ottema seem to really lean towards it's authenticity in age. But people are clever and I don't think it would have been imposible to get hold of old ink and/or paper, if you knew the right people and were in the right circles. So I think it's possible that is is written recently, on and using older paper and ink.

----------------

I found this info today of JH Halbertsma, so simple after all the other stuff. You might recall I said I thought Gysbert Japiex could have written the OLB but then I decided with the mention of 1806 he might be too early but look who Halbertsma was a fan of...needless to say this has gone a long way to have me thinking that Halbertsma did indeed write it. Not only that I think he shows inclinations to have wanted this information to be out there, being a Christian Mennonite imo is also a reason for his motives. He had also had a previous attempt at trying to show origins. He knew he could influence Frisian life.

Halbertsma, Justus Hiddes (1789-1869)

Justus Hiddes Halbertsma, born 23 October 1789, at Grouw, died 14 February 1869 at Deventer, served as Mennonite pastor at Bolsward 1814-1821, and Deventer 1821-1856, when he resigned to devote himself to writing. One of his works was De Doopsgezinden en Hunne herkomst (Deventer, 1843), in which he attempted to prove a Waldensian origin for the Mennonites. The book is of value for its information on the liberal ideas of Halbertsma and many Mennonites of his time. The book also contained some sermons, which were sharply criticized by Samuel Muller in the Dutch periodical Vaderlandsche Letteroefeningen of 1843 and 1844 (reprint, Beoordeeling van eenige Kerkredenen van H. H., Amsterdam, 1844).

Halbertsma studied the Nordic languages, especially his native Frisian, and became a specialist on Gysbert Japiex (1603-1666), a Frisian poet. He cooperated with his brothers Eeltje, who was a physician in Grouw, and Tjalling, in publishing Frisian verse and tales, which were eagerly read and thus influenced Frisian life. He also translated the Gospel of Matthew into Frisian (1858). The complete Frisian works of the Halbertsma brothers were published in 1871 titled Rimen en Teltsjes (5th ed., Leeuwarden, 1918).

http://www.gameo.org/encyclopedia/contents/halbertsma_justus_hiddes_1789_1869

Haverschmidt probably had a hand in it too.

I'll call them H & H.

------------

In saying that, I do think ALOT of the story is based in truth, of what he knew to be Frisian history and possible knowledge of the real Over de Linden genealogy from information given by the Grandfather, who was the real instigator behind Cornelius even having it in the start.

I actually believe much of it at the same time, I think it's possible it can be alot of truth in it, of the Frisian history. It's like Plato wrote Atlantis "strange but true".

I think Cornelius was actually oblivious to it all. 1867 he received it. Halbertsma died 2 years later. C's grandfather may have had it first, given to him by Halbertsma (and Haverschmidt) after the 3 of them created it.

Basically it was written by H & H just prior to 1867 - given or written for his grandfather even by the 2 men, that's why the Linden name is used, with permission from grandfather. One of my first posts here had grandfather as a suspect and often my first gut feelings are right.

Grandfather and H & H organised this OLB book, and subsequently it was passed onto Cornelius, unaware it was a created book, therefore he did not lie at all - he would have genuinely thought it was what he was told it was.

Anyone got an opinion on that?

Unfortunately Haverschmidt denied dec. 1875. You find his letter on www.rodinbook.nl. Besides I am not aware of contacts between Haverschmidt and Halbertsma. The contacts of Halbertsma were mainly international. That the name of Haverschmidt has been mentioned is because he was a minister for a short time in Den Helder and because he shared the same ideas influenced by Volney as had Cornelis over de Linden and Ernest Stadermann and many others. The ideas may have influenced Halbertma as well, though I did not locate the book in his library. I think the ideas of Haverschmidt and Halbertsma did not differ that much as far as Roman priests/church are concerned. Verwijs was a common friend of Haverschmidt and Halbertsma, but again Verwijs denied in 1876 in the Oprechte Haagsche Courant, but his denial was not accepted for a long time.

Edited by Knul

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That is just "another coincidence"... right?

There are too many "coincidences" in this whole OLB thing.

Yes, there are many 'conincidenses'. So I found, that J.H. Halbertsma published in 1922 on the word 'od'. You remember the discussions on Od. His translation would be woede, kwaad (meaning the devil), which comes close to Ottema's haat (hatred). Similarly in Od-in, W-od-an. Kolyn describes the Frisians as furious.

I met Jacques Fernaut at a SEM-meeting in Bakel (Breda).

I intend to put the text on my website, but that will take some time. He has added a text by Olauf Rudbeck, called Atlantica I (Uppsala och Stockholm) n.y. Maybe you can find that text online.

New challenge: I am not so much content with the translation of radbvwade = snel gebouwd (hastely builded). I suppose, that there is a connection with the name of Radboud, Redbad. Any idea ?

Edited by Knul

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Unfortunately Haverschmidt denied dec. 1875. You find his letter on www.rodinbook.nl. Besides I am not aware of contacts between Haverschmidt and Halbertsma. The contacts of Halbertsma were mainly international. That the name of Haverschmidt has been mentioned is because he was a minister for a short time in Den Helder and because he shared the same ideas influenced by Volney as had Cornelis over de Linden and Ernest Stadermann and many others. The ideas may have influenced Halbertma as well, though I did not locate the book in his library. I think the ideas of Haverschmidt and Halbertsma did not differ that much as far as Roman priests/church are concerned. Verwijs was a common friend of Haverschmidt and Halbertsma, but again Verwijs denied in 1876 in the Oprechte Haagsche Courant, but his denial was not accepted for a long time.

If I take Haverschmidt out, the conclusion I gave above still stands, just Halbertsma and the grandfather. (With Halberstma's brother probably involved too.)

Edited by The Puzzler

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It would be interesting to know if Halbertsma and Over de Linden had a shared ancestry and therewith cultural background. It might explain similar interests and ideas they seemed to have had.

Here's a first rough setup of that of Halbertsma:

(* = birth; + = death; X = marriage; father is number doubled; mother number doubled plus 1)

1 Joost Halbertsma, * 23 oct 1789, Grouw; + 27 feb 1869, Deventer

- - -

2 Hidde Halbertsma , * 1 aug 1756, Grouw; + 17 jan 1809, Grouw; Master-baker and trader, captain of a brigade; X 18 may 1788, Grouw

3 Ruurdtje Binnerts, * jun 1767, Grouw; + 14 dec 1809, Grouw

- - -

4 Joost Halbertsma, * 16 aug 1723, Gorredijk; + 26 jun 1788, Grouw; trader in Grouw; X 28 dec 1749, Grouw

5 Berber Dirks, * 7 feb 1716, Grouw; + 8 jul 1802, Grouw

6 Tjalling Binnerts

7 Geertje Eeltjes

- - -

8 Hidde Halbetsma, * 20 feb 1685, Dokkum; + 21 dec 1762, Gorredijk; silversmith; X 7 mei 1713, Vledder

9 Romkjen Sinnema, * 19 mar 1689, Beesterzwaag; + 21 aug 1760, Gorredijk

10 Dirk Jelmers

11 Tetje Symons

[...]

- - -

16 Dr Scipio Halbetsma, * ca 1645, Kollum; + 1700, Westdongeradeel at Ternaard; Advocate for court Friesland, fiscal of Dokkum, procureur and subst.-secretary of Westdongeradeel at Ternaard; X 18 apr 1669, Dokkum

17 Catharina Rinia Stinstra, * Dokkum; + after 15 dec 1693

18 Jacobus Sinnema

19 Hiltje van Boelens

[...]

- - -

32 Hidde Buwes, * ?; + between 16 jun and 2 oct 1666; taylor, clothtrader in Kollum, owner of land and houses in Ee, Engwierum, Oldwolde, Augustinusga, Kollumerpomp and Kollum; X before 9 may 1634

33 Wytske Sipckes Halbetsma, * 10 oct 1614, Kollum; + before 16 jun 1666

34 Joost Rinia Stinstra

35 Antje Hendricks Stinstra

[...]

- - -

64 Buwe Hiddes, living in Ee between 1597-1623, owner of land and houses in Ee, Tibma, Anjum and Engwierum; + between 16 oct 1623 and 6 may 1626; X before 26 aug 1607

65 Yck Luytzen

66 Sipcke Lubbes Halbetsma

67 Gerck Hendrix

[...]

Source: http://www.cervantes.nu/Genealogie/Halbertsma/FH01/FH01_002.HTM#P8697F5888

Edited by Otharus

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It would be interesting to know if Halbertsma and Over de Linden had a shared ancestry and therewith cultural background. It might explain similar interests and ideas they seemed to have had.

If the essay by Cornelis over de Linden to his grandson Cornelis III is anything to go by, he only knew about his Frisian descend from hearsay or family lore. According to him, he went to Friesland for the first time in his life in 1867.

“Toen ik van Harlingen hoorde, dacht ik, nu heb je, om zoo te zeggen, tot aan het andere eindje van de wereld geweest, en Friesland, vanwaar men zegt dat uw voorouders afstammen, heb je nooit gezien”.

When I heard Harlingen, I thought “Here you have, so to say, been to the other end of the world and Friesland, where people say your ancestors came from, you have never seen.”

It is also apparent that, despite the family tradition mentioned above, he did not see himself in the first place as a Frisian but rather as a Hollander. Note the following “them and us” type of sentiment:

“Daar hij het handschrift zelf gezien had, vond ik die vraag zoo gek, dat ik mij ging verbeelden, dat die Friezen een loopje met mij namen.”

“As he had seen the manuscript, I found the question ridiculous and thought the Frisians were taking me for a ride”.

From the aforementioned, it thus sounds unlikely that C.o.d.L. had much incentive to identify with the Frisians or to have promoted their cause.

If, however, one regards the whole OLB as a very elaborate hoax, the above evidence is not permissable..

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To avoid a misunderstanding:

My interest in the ancestry of Halbertsma does not come from a suspicion that he might have created the manuscript, but rather, that he had a more than average interest in etymology and history, because his ancestors knew (some of) the content of it.

Cornelis' ancestors may not always have kept the manuscript a total secret. There may still be copies or other versions in private collections. Jan Over de Linden, Cornelis' great-grandfather may even have left Leeuwarden because he got in trouble talking or publishing about it. All speculation, I know. But we need that to keep our minds open for all different possible scenarios. I still hope to find out more about the OL genealogy.

Edited by Otharus

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Yes, there are many 'conincidenses'. So I found, that J.H. Halbertsma published in 1822 on the word 'od'. You remember the discussions on Od. His translation would be woede, kwaad (meaning the devil), which comes close to Ottema's haat (hatred). Similarly in Od-in, W-od-an. Kolyn describes the Frisians as furious.

I met Jacques Fernaut at a SEM-meeting in Bakel (Breda).

I intend to put the text on my website, but that will take some time. He has added a text by Olauf Rudbeck, called Atlantica I (Uppsala och Stockholm) n.y. Maybe you can find that text online.

New challenge: I am not so much content with the translation of radbvwade = snel gebouwd (hastely builded). I suppose, that there is a connection with the name of Radboud, Redbad. Any idea ?

I will try to find the text by Rudbeck. But I have tried before many times, and I never found his work online.

And can you give us the sentence in the OLB with this "radbvwade"? I think you didn't spell it correctly.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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To avoid a misunderstanding:

My interest in the ancestry of Halbertsma does not come from a suspicion that he might have created the manuscript, but rather, that he had a more than average interest in etymology and history, because his ancestors knew (some of) the content of it.

Cornelis' ancestors may not always have kept the manuscript a total secret. There may still be copies or other versions in private collections. Jan Over de Linden, Cornelis' great-grandfather may even have left Leeuwarden because he got in trouble talking or publishing about it. All speculation, I know. But we need that to keep our minds open for all different possible scenarios. I still hope to find out more about the OL genealogy.

Thanks for clarifying that.

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To avoid a misunderstanding:

My interest in the ancestry of Halbertsma does not come from a suspicion that he might have created the manuscript, but rather, that he had a more than average interest in etymology and history, because his ancestors knew (some of) the content of it.

Cornelis' ancestors may not always have kept the manuscript a total secret. There may still be copies or other versions in private collections. Jan Over de Linden, Cornelis' great-grandfather may even have left Leeuwarden because he got in trouble talking or publishing about it. All speculation, I know. But we need that to keep our minds open for all different possible scenarios. I still hope to find out more about the OL genealogy.

After what we posted about Halbertsma's fanatical interest in anything Frisian (history, language, customs) I assume he would have hinted at there being some sort of 'ancient and unknown manuscript' about the history of the Frisians without disclosing exactly what or where it was.

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I will try to find the text by Rudbeck. But I have tried before many times, and I never found his work online.

And can you give us the sentence in the OLB with this "radbvwade"? I think you didn't spell it correctly.

.

Raedbvwde Lyda. En store bâm kvn hju bûgja aend sahwersa hja run ne braek nêne blomstâl vnder hjara fyt.

Weldige Lyda. Haerd was hjra steme aend krêt hju ut grimme sâ run ek flux wêi. [p. 14]

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It would be interesting to know if Halbertsma and Over de Linden had a shared ancestry and therewith cultural background. It might explain similar interests and ideas they seemed to have had.

Here's a first rough setup of that of Halbertsma:

(* = birth; + = death; X = marriage; father is number doubled; mother number doubled plus 1)

1 Joost Halbertsma, * 23 oct 1789, Grouw; + 27 feb 1869, Deventer

- - -

2 Hidde Halbertsma , * 1 aug 1756, Grouw; + 17 jan 1809, Grouw; Master-baker and trader, captain of a brigade; X 18 may 1788, Grouw

3 Ruurdtje Binnerts, * jun 1767, Grouw; + 14 dec 1809, Grouw

- - -

4 Joost Halbertsma, * 16 aug 1723, Gorredijk; + 26 jun 1788, Grouw; trader in Grouw; X 28 dec 1749, Grouw

5 Berber Dirks, * 7 feb 1716, Grouw; + 8 jul 1802, Grouw

6 Tjalling Binnerts

7 Geertje Eeltjes

- - -

8 Hidde Halbetsma, * 20 feb 1685, Dokkum; + 21 dec 1762, Gorredijk; silversmith; X 7 mei 1713, Vledder

9 Romkjen Sinnema, * 19 mar 1689, Beesterzwaag; + 21 aug 1760, Gorredijk

10 Dirk Jelmers

11 Tetje Symons

[...]

- - -

16 Dr Scipio Halbetsma, * ca 1645, Kollum; + 1700, Westdongeradeel at Ternaard; Advocate for court Friesland, fiscal of Dokkum, procureur and subst.-secretary of Westdongeradeel at Ternaard; X 18 apr 1669, Dokkum

17 Catharina Rinia Stinstra, * Dokkum; + after 15 dec 1693

18 Jacobus Sinnema

19 Hiltje van Boelens

[...]

- - -

32 Hidde Buwes, * ?; + between 16 jun and 2 oct 1666; taylor, clothtrader in Kollum, owner of land and houses in Ee, Engwierum, Oldwolde, Augustinusga, Kollumerpomp and Kollum; X before 9 may 1634

33 Wytske Sipckes Halbetsma, * 10 oct 1614, Kollum; + before 16 jun 1666

34 Joost Rinia Stinstra

35 Antje Hendricks Stinstra

[...]

- - -

64 Buwe Hiddes, living in Ee between 1597-1623, owner of land and houses in Ee, Tibma, Anjum and Engwierum; + between 16 oct 1623 and 6 may 1626; X before 26 aug 1607

65 Yck Luytzen

66 Sipcke Lubbes Halbetsma

67 Gerck Hendrix

[...]

Source: http://www.cervantes.nu/Genealogie/Halbertsma/FH01/FH01_002.HTM#P8697F5888

I have a complete genealogy of Halbertsma on my website rodinbook.nl. I make it available. It's to large to print here.

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An Obbema suggests (among other things) that the contact between Cornelis Over de Linden and Joost Halbertsma could have taken place through Halbertsma's son who was a naval officer:

OBBEMA_OLB.jpg

http://www.archiefleeuwardercourant.nl/vw/article.do?id=LC-19940112-13006&vw=org&lm=oera%2Clinda%2Ckleinzon#

++

EDIT:

On Knul's site I read just now this son is "Binnert Halbertsma" :

http://rodinbook.nl/olbchronologie.html

.

Edited by Abramelin

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“Carricaturen der

Halbertsma’s"

Ien fan de moaiste ôfbyldingen

is sûnder mis de tekening yn

kleur fan de hiele húshâlding

fan de Halbertsma’s. Joast is der

op ôfbylde, de mem, Johanna

Iskje Hoekema, de fiif soannen,

Petrus, Hidde, Watse, Tjalling

en Binnert, mar ek de hûn Apol,

de kat, de kanarje en de hinnen.

See page 8 of this PDF:

http://images.tresoar.nl/download/letterhoeke1.pdf

English:

Caricatures of the family Halbertsma:

One of the nicest images is without a doubt the drawing in color of the whole Halbertsma household. Joast is shown, the mother, Johanna Iskje Hoekema, the five sons, Petrus, Hidde, Watse, Tjalling and Binnert, but also the dog Apol, the cat, the canary and the chickens.

Bwuahahahaha !!! Apol was the name of their dog !!!

And I will bet their cat was called "Adela" !!

The drawing from the PDF:

Halbertsma_Apol.jpg

De hiele húshâlding fan Joast Halbertsma, tekene troch Petrus Halbertsma (?)

(The whole household of Joast Halbertsma, a drawing by Petrus Halbertsma (?))

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Some well-known conspiracy theories:

1. “The Holocaust never happened”

2. “ Lee Harvey Oswald did not kill Kennedy”,

3. “The Americans never landed on the moon”, and

4. “The Oera Linda Book is a Hoax”

In every case the facts far outweigh the speculation and conjecture of those advancing their individual conspiracy theories. It is, nevertheless, astonishing how many people (and those that preach these conspiracies) actually believe these.

Halbertsma’s so-called involvement was first raised a hundred years after the Oera Linda Book surfaced. In the 19th century nobody even considered him to be a suspect. Yet, now, him being the mastermind behind the creation of the OLB, is being flaunted as fact. At the same time we are continuously being told that the guys in the 19th century “were not stupid/fools”.

The inconsistencies in the arguments of the conspiracy / hoax theorists just never seem to stop.

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Apol, Adelas husband; three times a sea-king; Grevetman of Ostflyland and Lindaoorden. The towns Liudgarda, Lindahem, and Stavia are under his care.

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/

OK, so the Halbertsma's had a dog called Apol.

We see his son Binnert portrayed as a young boy, so that might give us an idea when Halbertsma created this 'grevetman Apol'.

Apol, a guard dog; they must have taken him on walkies to Leeuwarden, the Lindenoord mansion of the Van Haren family, and Stavoren, and let him 'mark' the linden-trees he encountered, lol. No doubt he was also fond of swimming, retrieving sticks from the water ("sea-king").

+++++++++++++

EDIT:

Binnert Willem Anne Halbertsma was born 06 APR 1833 in Deventer, and died 10 JUN 1861 in Amsterdam.

http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=AHN&db=sjollema&id=I9990

ID: I9983

•Name: Binnert Willem Anne Halbertsma

•Sex: M

•Birth: 06 APR 1833 in Deventer 1

•Death: 10 JUN 1861 in Amsterdam 2

•Burial: 13 JUN 1861 Amsterdam 2

•Occupation: luitenant-ter-zee 2e kl..

•Change Date: 29 MAR 2006

Father: Justus \ Joost \ Joast \ Hiddes Halbertsma b: 23 OCT 1789 in Grouw

Mother: Johanna Iskjen Hoekema b: 06 APR 1794 in Workum c: 16 APR 1794 in Workum

http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=sjollema&id=I9983

And click on all the names of the Halbertsmas here:

http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=AHN&db=sjollema&id=I9990

.

Edited by Abramelin

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If the essay by Cornelis over de Linden to his grandson Cornelis III is anything to go by, he only knew about his Frisian descend from hearsay or family lore. According to him, he went to Friesland for the first time in his life in 1867.

“Toen ik van Harlingen hoorde, dacht ik, nu heb je, om zoo te zeggen, tot aan het andere eindje van de wereld geweest, en Friesland, vanwaar men zegt dat uw voorouders afstammen, heb je nooit gezien”.

When I heard Harlingen, I thought “Here you have, so to say, been to the other end of the world and Friesland, where people say your ancestors came from, you have never seen.”

It is also apparent that, despite the family tradition mentioned above, he did not see himself in the first place as a Frisian but rather as a Hollander. Note the following “them and us” type of sentiment:

“Daar hij het handschrift zelf gezien had, vond ik die vraag zoo gek, dat ik mij ging verbeelden, dat die Friezen een loopje met mij namen.”

“As he had seen the manuscript, I found the question ridiculous and thought the Frisians were taking me for a ride”.

From the aforementioned, it thus sounds unlikely that C.o.d.L. had much incentive to identify with the Frisians or to have promoted their cause.

If, however, one regards the whole OLB as a very elaborate hoax, the above evidence is not permissable..

What you say seems to fly in the face of this account:

Fragment of the letter from Cornelis Over de Linden to Eelco Verwijs of 7 October 1867, introducing the manuscript, now known as OLB. (My improvised translation, from "De Gemaskerde God", page 237; from now on I'll refer to this book as DGG.)

Dear sir!

When in my childhood I visited my grandparents in Enkhuizen, and my grandfather (he was a master carpenter) spoke to me in confidence, he used to say: "You speak fancy now, but you must remember that we are not of Hollandic, but of pure Frisian blood, when you're older I'll explain all that, because your father doesn't care about it.

This came from the search function, from one of Otharus posts and I clearly recall it.

I don't think it's a 'very elaborate hoax'. It only has to be written by Halbertsma, his brother and with the grandfather involved to bring the Oera Linda name into it, he's the one pushing it onto Cornelis the whole time.

Cornelis would also be innocent of any knowledge or lying, he would have been completely oblivious to the writing.

----------------

Apol the dog Abe? lol You're kidding! Now that would be a co-incidence indeed.

Edited by The Puzzler

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Apol, Adela’s husband; three times a sea-king; Grevetman of Ostflyland and Lindaoorden. The towns Liudgarda, Lindahem, and Stavia are under his care.

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/

OK, so the Halbertsma's had a dog called Apol.

We see his son Binnert portrayed as a young boy, so that might give us an idea when Halbertsma created this 'grevetman Apol'.

Apol, a guard dog; they must have taken him on walkies to Leeuwarden, the Lindenoord mansion of the Van Haren family, and Stavoren, and let him 'mark' the linden-trees he encountered, lol. No doubt he was also fond of swimming, retrieving sticks from the water ("sea-king").

+++++++++++++

EDIT:

Binnert Willem Anne Halbertsma was born 06 APR 1833 in Deventer, and died 10 JUN 1861 in Amsterdam.

http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=AHN&db=sjollema&id=I9990

ID: I9983

•Name: Binnert Willem Anne Halbertsma

•Sex: M

•Birth: 06 APR 1833 in Deventer 1

•Death: 10 JUN 1861 in Amsterdam 2

•Burial: 13 JUN 1861 Amsterdam 2

•Occupation: luitenant-ter-zee 2e kl..

•Change Date: 29 MAR 2006

Father: Justus \ Joost \ Joast \ Hiddes Halbertsma b: 23 OCT 1789 in Grouw

Mother: Johanna Iskjen Hoekema b: 06 APR 1794 in Workum c: 16 APR 1794 in Workum

http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=sjollema&id=I9983

And click on all the names of the Halbertsmas here:

http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=AHN&db=sjollema&id=I9990

.

A bit more about Halbertsma's dog Apol:

Maar vooreerst genoeg over de prediker, die lak had aan de deftigheid

van zijn hervormde collega's in toga, en die volgens de verhalen zijn hond

Apol, met een bef voor, de straat opjoeg om daarvan blijk te geven. Dit

speelde zich af in de stad, waarheen hij in 1821 was beroepen en waar hij was

gearriveerd om er tot zijn dood toe te blijven.

English:

But for now enough about the preacher who didn't give a damn about the pompous behaviour of his reformed collegues in their gowns, and who according to stories chased his dog Apol out on the streets with a pair of starched bands around its neck to demonstrate his dislike. This occurred in 1821 in the city to which he was called and where he would stay until his death.

http://www.historischcentrumoverijssel.nl/NR/rdonlyres/B6DB70B4-9880-4FBD-A4C6-87B620B4D78F/0/07.pdf

This is an example of how his 'collegues' were dressed back then:

66444-A_1.jpg

.

Edited by Abramelin

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So it appears to me Halbertsma himself was a Frisian who lived and died in the Netherlands. His sentiments imo match basically what the grandfather said about speaking fancy, but they were both Frisians, not Hollanders - a reason for writing this book and becoming a specialist on Frisian itself., his families lines there in those links are Amsterdam etc...

Halbertsma studied the Nordic languages, especially his native Frisian, and became a specialist on Gysbert Japiex (1603-1666), a Frisian poet.

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Apol the dog Abe? lol You're kidding! Now that would be a co-incidence indeed.

Now you understand why I loved that line from this grandson of Over de Linden, telling us that late at night "two learned gentlemen" came around to visit his grandfather, and the three of them often roared with laughter!

When I found out about Halbertsma's dog being called "Apol", I nearly choked, hahaha !!

Van der Mey has tried to identify members of the Frisian Society under names, which are recorded in the OLB. We have no idea, who are meant by Storo, Enoch (eenoog ?), Apol, Abelo, Dunros etc. This aspect has not yet been investigated.

I wonder how Halbertsma called his cat and chickens, lol.

"Eenoog" ("One-eye"), the cat?

Btw, Menno, the word for eye in the OLB and the Old Frisian dictionary is "age".

.

Edited by Abramelin

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He was a Mennonite. A Christian group.

The Mennonites are a group of Christian Anabaptist denominations named after the Frisian Menno Simons (1496–1561), who, through his writings, articulated and thereby formalized the teachings of earlier Swiss founders. The teachings of the Mennonites were founded on their belief in both the mission and ministry of Jesus Christ, which they held to with great conviction despite persecution by the various Roman Catholic and Protestant states.

These forerunners of modern Mennonites were part of the broad reaction against the practices and theology of the Roman Catholic Church known as the Protestant Reformation. Its most distinguishing feature is the rejection of infant baptism, an act that had both religious and political meaning since almost every infant born in western Europe was baptized into the Roman Catholic Church. Other significant theological views of the Mennonites developed in opposition to Roman Catholic views or to the views of other Protestant reformers such as Martin Luther and Huldrych Zwingli.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mennonite

Menno Simons (1496 – 31 January 1561) was an Anabaptist religious leader from the Friesland region of the Low Countries. Simons was a contemporary of the Protestant Reformers and his followers became known as Mennonites. "Menno Simons" (/ˈmɛnoː ˈsimɔns/) is a dutchification; his actual, Frisian name was Minne Simens (/ˈmɪnə ˈsimn̩s/).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menno_Simons

'Dutchification', that's a good word.

These people are against exactly what the OLB is talking about.

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Some well-known conspiracy theories:

1. “The Holocaust never happened”

2. “ Lee Harvey Oswald did not kill Kennedy”,

3. “The Americans never landed on the moon”, and

4. “The Oera Linda Book is a Hoax”

In every case the facts far outweigh the speculation and conjecture of those advancing their individual conspiracy theories. It is, nevertheless, astonishing how many people (and those that preach these conspiracies) actually believe these.

Halbertsma’s so-called involvement was first raised a hundred years after the Oera Linda Book surfaced. In the 19th century nobody even considered him to be a suspect. Yet, now, him being the mastermind behind the creation of the OLB, is being flaunted as fact. At the same time we are continuously being told that the guys in the 19th century “were not stupid/fools”.

The inconsistencies in the arguments of the conspiracy / hoax theorists just never seem to stop.

It has been decided in 1876-1877 that the OLB is a hoax and that has been accepted widely. Your 4. should read 'The Oera Linda Book is not a Hoax" to compare it with 1. never, 2. not, 3. never. Just a matter of logic.

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Now you understand why I loved that line from this grandson of Over de Linden, telling us that late at night "two learned gentlemen" came around to visit his grandfather, and the three of them often roared with laughter!

When I found out about Halbertsma's dog being called "Apol", I nearly choked, hahaha !!

I wonder how Halbertsma called his cat and chickens, lol.

"Eenoog" ("One-eye"), the cat?

Btw, Menno, the word for eye in the OLB and the Old Frisian dictionary is "age".

.

You never know. It has also been said, that the names refer to his sons.

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If that line you gave is in context to Cornelis' overhearing his own Grandfather and the 2 learned men (who could be Brothers H) saying that, then, yes, that is what I'd say they were talking about.

I don't think it's Haverschmidt or anyone else invloved, I believe Halbertsma would have been very familiar with all knowledge on the Frisian language.

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You never know. It has also been said, that the names refer to his sons.

You mean that Petrus, Hidde, Watse, Tjalling and Binnert were Storo, Enoch, Apol, Abelo, and Dunroos.

Well, you'll have to admit that it's another bloody coincidence that of all people it is Halbersma who had a dog called "Apol", and already in 1821.

And not only that, but read what he used his dog for.

Btw, I found 'an' Abelo:

Abelo Tamminga, a 'zijlrechter':

http://books.google.nl/books?id=YFRbAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA442&lpg=PA442&dq=%22Abelo%22+friesland&source=bl&ots=ypoSekSjuV&sig=EXVbsTy3qTbuBJ3CJFBpHEDosYY&hl=nl&ei=r0vWTs-wH9GdOr3S0WE&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=%22Abelo%22%20friesland&f=false

A 'zijlrechter' was a supervisor of sails, sluices and seawalls:

http://books.google.nl/books?id=dvc9AAAAYAAJ&pg=PA82&lpg=PA82&dq=zijlregter&source=bl&ots=Mw4p88cxmW&sig=Mv1zFJsAbCMyCKA_lU0pS_mxaIw&hl=nl&ei=0UzWTtq4NIroOdyKyWo&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=zijlregter&f=false

.

Edited by Abramelin

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