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Riaan

[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood

11,638 posts in this topic

I think, this is the best way to show the believers, that the basis 2193 BC for their theory does not make sense. The year 2193 BC is mentioned in the Friesche Almanak. Other almanaks like the Hinlooper almanak (year 1679) make use of another year: 2326 BC.

Source: J.H. Halbertsma, Hulde aan Gysbert Japicx II, p.194. PDF available.

2193BC is the date given for the beginning of the end of the Akkadian Empire. Maybe something did happen at that time, ever thought of that?

The whole climate change at that time imo is enough to cause many of the things mentioned in the 2193BC cataclysm.

We don't exactly know what rivers flooded or what lands were submerged or where fires occurred, what we do know is a severe climate change peaked at that time, (2200BC) causing enough disturbances to be recorded in many ancient texts, whether it was floods, fires, heat or cold, drying out of lands and continued famine, it did happen at the timeframe of 2193BC.

4.2 kiloyear event – a severe aridification event that probably lasted the entire 22nd century BC and caused the collapse of several Old World civilizations.

2217 BC – 2193 BC: Nomadic invasions of Akkad.

2200 BC: Sixth dynasty of Egypt ended.

c. 2190 BC: Caused by a severe drought, Old Kingdom finished in Ancient Egypt. Start of First Intermediate Period. 7th–10th Dynasties.

c. 2184 BC: Pharaoh Pepi II Neferkare dies (other date is 2289 BC?).

c. 2181 BC: Old Kingdom ends in Ancient Egypt (other date is 2190 BC).

c. 2181 BC: First Intermediate Period starts in Ancient Egypt (other date is 2190 BC).

2181 BC: Egypt: Pharaoh Nitocris died. End of Sixth Dynasty, start of Seventh Dynasty. Pharaoh Neferkara I started to reign.

2180 BC: Old Kingdom ends in Ancient Egypt. First Intermediate Period of Egypt starts.

c. 2180 BC: Akkadian Empire fell under attack by the Guti (Mesopotamia), a mountain people from the northeast.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/22nd_century_BC

----------------------

I wanted to edit something I was too late to do before, I said:

I recalled the Akka had 3 daughters or something so went to check him out some more, what's interesting is he could be Freyr.

Akka is female and my sentence doesn't make sense, I meant to write 'her out some more' and then meant to continue onto Wralda was Freyr, sometimes my notebook notes are written quickly.

Edited by The Puzzler

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2193BC is the date given for the beginning of the end of the Akkadian Empire. Maybe something did happen at that time, ever thought of that?

The whole climate change at that time imo is enough to cause many of the things mentioned in the 2193BC cataclysm.

The logic would be, that you would rely on the oldest date given: 2326 BC.

Edited by Knul

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2193BC is the date given for the beginning of the end of the Akkadian Empire. Maybe something did happen at that time, ever thought of that?

The whole climate change at that time imo is enough to cause many of the things mentioned in the 2193BC cataclysm.

We don't exactly know what rivers flooded or what lands were submerged or where fires occurred, what we do know is a severe climate change peaked at that time, (2200BC) causing enough disturbances to be recorded in many ancient texts, whether it was floods, fires, heat or cold, drying out of lands and continued famine, it did happen at the timeframe of 2193BC.

4.2 kiloyear event a severe aridification event that probably lasted the entire 22nd century BC and caused the collapse of several Old World civilizations.

2217 BC 2193 BC: Nomadic invasions of Akkad.

2200 BC: Sixth dynasty of Egypt ended.

c. 2190 BC: Caused by a severe drought, Old Kingdom finished in Ancient Egypt. Start of First Intermediate Period. 7th10th Dynasties.

c. 2184 BC: Pharaoh Pepi II Neferkare dies (other date is 2289 BC?).

c. 2181 BC: Old Kingdom ends in Ancient Egypt (other date is 2190 BC).

c. 2181 BC: First Intermediate Period starts in Ancient Egypt (other date is 2190 BC).

2181 BC: Egypt: Pharaoh Nitocris died. End of Sixth Dynasty, start of Seventh Dynasty. Pharaoh Neferkara I started to reign.

2180 BC: Old Kingdom ends in Ancient Egypt. First Intermediate Period of Egypt starts.

c. 2180 BC: Akkadian Empire fell under attack by the Guti (Mesopotamia), a mountain people from the northeast.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/22nd_century_BC

----------------------

I wanted to edit something I was too late to do before, I said:

I recalled the Akka had 3 daughters or something so went to check him out some more, what's interesting is he could be Freyr.

Akka is female and my sentence doesn't make sense, I meant to write 'her out some more' and then meant to continue onto Wralda was Freyr, sometimes my notebook notes are written quickly.

Which just means that you really, REALLY need to quit relying so heavily on Wiki for your information, because of the following:

1) 2217 BC 2193 BC: Nomadic invasions of Akkad.

Which suggests that this DIDN'T start in 2193 BC.

2) 2200 BC: Sixth dynasty of Egypt ended.

The 6th Dynasty didn't end in 2200, but with the long term drought which occurred circe 2160 BC.

3) c. 2184 BC: Pharaoh Pepi II Neferkare dies (other date is 2289 BC?).

Aidan Dodson suggests 2212 - 2118 BC in his book The Complete Royal Families of Ancient Egypt, page 288.

4) c. 2181 BC: Old Kingdom ends in Ancient Egypt (other date is 2190 BC).

Again, per Aidan Dodson, the Old Kingdom (dynasty 6) ends at 2117 BC with Nemtyemsaf II. Many others include the 7th and 8th dynasties in the Old Kingdom, which would further lower the date. But in either case it's still NOT 2193 BC.

5) 2181 BC: Egypt: Pharaoh Nitocris died.

Current evidence has shown that there was, in fact, NO pharaoh known as Nitocris (who was claimed to be a woman) but was actually a mis-translation of the name of Neitiqerty Siptah, a little known male pharaoh.

6) c. 2180 BC: Akkadian Empire fell under attack by the Guti (Mesopotamia), a mountain people from the northeast.

Which is also NOT 2193 BC.

cormac

Edited by cormac mac airt

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I answered in response to Knuls comment about it must be a hoax because the same date of 2193BC is in the Frisian Almanac, where it's clear something of the nature in the OLB could have occurred at that time regardless of all the date changes you gave, which seem to change every 5 minutes.

2193BC might have been the end of the Nomadic invasions of Akkad because of the disruption the climate changes made. It doesn't null it, if anything, it makes it a stronger case...why did the nomadic invasions stop suddenly at 2193BC??

1) 2217 BC 2193 BC: Nomadic invasions of Akkad.

You said:

Which suggests that this DIDN'T start in 2193 BC.

It certainly suggests it to me. You are just thinking that the nomadic invasions must have come AFTER the cataclysm, but rather, they stopped when it occurred.

Edited by The Puzzler

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I answered in response to Knuls comment about it must be a hoax because the same date of 2193BC is in the Frisian Almanac, where it's clear something of the nature in the OLB could have occurred at that time regardless of all the date changes you gave, which seem to change every 5 minutes.

2193BC might have been the end of the Nomadic invasions of Akkad because of the disruption the climate changes made. It doesn't null it, if anything, it makes it a stronger case...why did the nomadic invasions stop suddenly at 2193BC??

1) 2217 BC – 2193 BC: Nomadic invasions of Akkad.

You said:

Which suggests that this DIDN'T start in 2193 BC.

It certainly suggests it to me. You are just thinking that the nomadic invasions must have come AFTER the cataclysm, but rather, they stopped when it occurred.

While there is some disagreement amongst Egyptologists as to when exactly the 6th dynasty ended, the point was that NONE of their dates are 2200 or 2193 BC, specifically.

You are just thinking that the nomadic invasions must have come AFTER the cataclysm, but rather, they stopped when it occurred.

No, I'm saying that if the invasions started in 2217 BC, then they obviously DIDN'T start in 2193 BC. Not that it matters anyway as even Wiki, which you seem to be so enamored of, says the following:

The Empire of Akkad collapsed in 2154 BC, within 180 years of its founding, ushering in a period of regional decline that lasted until the rise of the Third Dynasty of Ur in 2112 BC. By the end of the reign of Naram-Sin's son, Shar-kali-sharri (2217–2193 BC), the empire had weakened. There was a period of anarchy between 2192 BC and 2168 BC. Shu-Durul (2168–2154 BC) appears to have restored some order, however he was unable to prevent the empire eventually collapsing outright from the invasion of barbarian peoples from the Zagros Mountains known as the Gutians.

Akkadian Empire

So again, contrary to the belief that 2193 BC is the be-all/end-all of Eurasian/North African history as relates to claims dealing with the OLB, it is again WRONG.

cormac

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1. The 2193 BC has been copied from the Friesche Almanak. As far as I know J.H. Halbertsma was one of the editors and contributors to the Friesche Almanak since 1836. Halbertsma knew about the chronology of the Hindelooper Almanak, which says 2326 BC, because he tranlated the text into Dutch in Hulde aan Gysbert Japicx II, p.194-195.

2. Halbertsma studied nordic languages and must have known about the nordic mythology. The porse Edda by Snorri Sturluson must have been one of the sources of the OLB. I noticed that all characteristics of Frya are positive, all characteristics of Finda are negative and characteristics of Lyda are neutral.

Library of Halbertsma:

Westendorp, N. Verhandeling over de vraag: Eene beknopte voordragt van de Noordsche mythologie, ontleend uit de oorspronkelijke gedenkstukken, en met aanwijzing van het gebruik, dat hiervan in de Nederlandsche dichtkunde zou kunnen gemaakt worden? / door N. Westendorp. - [Dordrecht : Blussé en Van Braam, 1829-1830]. - 590, VI p. ; 23 cm. - (Nieuwe Werken van de Maatschappij der Nederlandsche Letterkunde ; 2: 1a, 2a) Saakes 9 (1829), p. 36, (1830), p. 173. Sign.: s 3 AW/nwe werken 2,1 Bibliotheek Halbertsma Sign.: s 3 AW/nwe werken 2,2 Bibliotheek Halbertsma

Niermeyer, A. Verhandeling over het booze wezen in het bijgeloof onzer natie : eene bijdrage tot de kennis onzer voorvaderlijke mythologie / door A. Niermeyer. - Rotterdam : Wijnands, 1840. - XIV, 115 p. ; 24 cm Sign.: 1554 Gdg Bibliotheek Halbertsma

3. As a translator of the Seemans almanak Halbertsma knew of astronomy (not astrology), because astronomy played an important role in navigation. Just read, what Halbertsma wrote on pag. 194-195 of his Hulde aan Gysbert Japicx II (top of pages).

Edited by Knul

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No, I'm saying that if the invasions started in 2217 BC, then they obviously DIDN'T start in 2193 BC. Not that it matters anyway as even Wiki, which you seem to be so enamored of, says the following:

They don't have to have started in 2193BC though, they may have ended then because of the catastrophe's. This point cannot be used against the date as you tried to show.

Knul, so did they pluck it out of the air to put 2193BC in the Friesche Almanac? There must be a basis for this date somewhere.

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Vega is the most important and brightest Pole Star their was, when it fell from it's position it would have really had an impact, they say the knowledge of sailing could have been lost, with no star to follow. Thuban is in Draco and then their was Twin Pole stars - then Polaris came along. The fall and rise of these Sons imo is the core to much - including Phaethon and Jesus, Apollo and Artemis. At certain times the Mother will birth children, the children are the Pole Stars. Look at your number 8 on your keyboard, that is a true asterisk, 6 spokes, not 8. That is the sign the Sami used as the Pole Star.

Decans you say? Yes. Probably also coincides with Plato's ten sons, 5 pair of twins.

The Decans (Egyptian bakiu) are 36 groups of stars (small constellations) which rise consecutively on the horizon throughout each earth rotation. The rising of each decan marked the beginning of a new decanal "hour" (Greek hōra) of the night for the ancient Egyptians, and they were used as a sidereal star clock beginning by at least the 9th or 10th Dynasty (ca 2100 BCE.)

Because a new decan also appears heliacally every ten days (that is, every ten days, a new decanic star group reappears in the eastern sky at dawn right before the Sun rises, after a period of being obscured by the Sun's light), the ancient Greeks called them dekanoi (pl. of dekanos) or "tenths" (and when the concept of decans reached northern India, they were called drekkana in Sanskrit.) These predictable heliacal re-appearances by the decans were eventually used by the Egyptians to mark the divisions of their annual solar calendar. Thus the heliacal rising of Sirius marked the annual flooding of the Nile.

Eventually this system led to a system of 12 daytime hours and 12 nighttime hours, varying in length according to the season. Later, a system of 24 "equinoctial" hours was used.[1]

After astrology was introduced to Egypt, various systems attributing astrological significance to decans arose. Decans were connected, for example, with various diseases and with the timing for the engraving of talismans for curing them;[2] with decanic "faces" (or "phases"), a system where three decans are assigned to each zodiacal sign, each covering 10° of the zodiac, and each ruled by a planetary ruler (see below); and correlated with astrological signs.[3]

Decans continued to be used throughout the Renaissance in astrology and in magic, but modern astrologers almost entirely ignore them.

360 degrees = 36 lots of 10 degrees.

I'm not sure where you are getting 12 from though - they are set into 10's. The 12 could come from the signs themself - as you have 3 sets of 4 signs - each 4 signs could be a Goddess you think?

Very possible. As Sirius is first , Lyda is first in the birthing list. - This is our earliest history.

Wr-alda, who alone is eternal and good, made the beginning. Then commenced time. Time wrought all things, even the earth. The earth bore grass, herbs, and trees, all useful and all noxious animals. All that is good and useful she brought forth by day, and all that is bad and injurious by night.

After the twelfth Juulfeest she brought forth three maidens:—

Lyda out of fierce heat.

Finda out of strong heat.

Frya out of moderate heat.

The sequence of these star patterns began with Sothis/Sirius, and each decan contained a set of stars and corresponding divinities. As measures of time, the rising and setting of decans marked 'hours' and groups of 10 days which comprised an Egyptian year.

There were 36 [4] decans (36 X 10 = 360 days). plus 5 added days to compose the 365 days of a solar based year. Decans measure sidereal time and the solar year is 6 hours longer; the Sothic and solar years in the Egyptian calendar realign every 1460 years. Decans represented on coffins from later dynasties (such as King Seti I) compared with earlier decan images demonstrate the Sothic-solar shift.

Notice that rulerships follow a repeating pattern, the so-called "Chaldaean" order of the planets: Saturn, Jupiter, Mars, Sun, Venus, Mercury, Moon. This planetary order, in which the Sun stands at the center of the continuum, with the planets between the Sun and the Earth on one side and the outer planets on the other side, reflected the perception of the speed of each planet's motion as seen from the Earth.

Interesting, need more time to absorb it all.

----------------

Each Goddess could be 10 days - equalling 1 month. 30 days. x 12 children = 1 year (complete rondeel).

Note also, the rising of each decan marked a new HOUR for the Egyptians - this could be referenced in the OLB by talking about how a sailors hour is different to the hour she is speaking about.

The reason I posted about Vega (> Frya), Arcturus (> Finda) and Sirius (> Lyda) is because of their names, because they belong to the 5 brightest stars, because Sirius was an important star in the mythology/religion and so on in northern Africa, and because they are all 3 near the pole star.

Yesterday I even wanted to post about the 'Big Dipper' or the 'Little Dipper' because they look a lot like a 'kroder' or wheelbarrow and are near the pole star.

-

You don't get where 12 comes from? Each earth mother, Frya, Lyda and Finda, gave birth to 12 sons & daughters, 12 couples. 3x12=36 > 36 decans.

The devision of the horscope wheel into 3 parts is known in astrology as cardinal,fixed and mutable signs, like I showed you.

Lyda out of fierce heat: Aries (+ Cancer, Libra, Capricorn) / Aries is a fire sign.

Finda out of strong heat: Taurus (+ Leo, Scorpio, Aquarius) / Taurus is an earth sign.

Frya out of moderate heat: Gemini (+ Virgo, Sagittarius, Pisces) / Gemini is an air sign.

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The logic would be, that you would rely on the oldest date given: 2326 BC.

What exactly do they place at 2326BC?

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I think, this is the best way to show the believers (Alewyn, Otharus), that the basis 2193 BC for their flood theory does not make sense. The year 2193 BC is mentioned in the Friesche (Volks) Almanak. Other almanaks like the Hinlooper almanak (year 1679) make use of another year: 2326 BC. It makes also clear, that the OLB has been written between 1836 and 1852 (or later), in which years the Friesche Almanak with this type information was published. In later issues of the Friesche Volksalmanak this information has been omitted. If the OLB would have been written before 1836 as is claimed by Otharus it would have followed the oldest almanak, the Hinlooper almanak: 2326 BC.

Source: J.H. Halbertsma, Hulde aan Gysbert Japicx II, p.194. PDF available.

The date of 2193 BC is nowhere mentioned in the Friesche Volksalmanak. It is the result of a calculation, and even then the result should be 2194 BC, not 2193 BC (there is NO year zero).

2193BC-FriescheVolksalmanak-1839.jpg

This is what the underlined sentences say:

The year afer the birth of our Lord J.C. : 1839

Since the Flood: 4032

1839-4032=2193. No year zero, so it is 2194 BC.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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The reason I posted about Vega (> Frya), Arcturus (> Finda) and Sirius (> Lyda) is because of their names, because they belong to the 5 brightest stars, because Sirius was an important star in the mythology/religion and so on in northern Africa, and because they are all 3 near the pole star.

Yesterday I even wanted to post about the 'Big Dipper' or the 'Little Dipper' because they look a lot like a 'kroder' or wheelbarrow and are near the pole star.

-

You don't get where 12 comes from? Each earth mother, Frya, Lyda and Finda, gave birth to 12 sons & daughters, 12 couples. 3x12=36 > 36 decans.

The devision of the horscope wheel into 3 parts is known in astrology as cardinal,fixed and mutable signs, like I showed you.

Lyda out of fierce heat: Aries (+ Cancer, Libra, Capricorn) / Aries is a fire sign.

Finda out of strong heat: Taurus (+ Leo, Scorpio, Aquarius) / Taurus is an earth sign.

Frya out of moderate heat: Gemini (+ Virgo, Sagittarius, Pisces) / Gemini is an air sign.

Yes, but the decans are 10. There were 36 [4] decans (36 X 10 = 360 days). plus 5 added days to compose the 365 days of a solar based year.

But then: Eventually this system led to a system of 12 daytime hours and 12 nighttime hours, varying in length according to the season. Later, a system of 24 "equinoctial" hours was used.

They each bore twelve sons and twelve daughters—at every Juul-time a couple. Thence come all mankind.

I'd be inclined to think the 12 sons and 12 daughters were the hours - 24 hours were born each Juul time from each of them.

But the Zodiac signs explanation sounds fair.

I'm not sure about your choice of stars yet.

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The date of 2193 BC is nowhere mentioned in the Friesche Volksalmanak. It is the result of a calculation, and even then the result should be 2194 BC, not 2193 BC (there is NO year zero).

2193BC-FriescheVolksalmanak-1839.jpg

This is what the underlined sentences say:

The year afer the birth of our Lord J.C. : 1839

Since the Flood: 4032

1839-4032=2193. No year zero, so it is 2194 BC.

.

So compare this with the Hinlooper almanak of 1679: 4005 - 1679 = 2326 BC. If you like 2327 BC.

Edited by Knul

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Yes, but the decans are 10. There were 36 [4] decans (36 X 10 = 360 days). plus 5 added days to compose the 365 days of a solar based year.

But then: Eventually this system led to a system of 12 daytime hours and 12 nighttime hours, varying in length according to the season. Later, a system of 24 "equinoctial" hours was used.

They each bore twelve sons and twelve daughters—at every Juul-time a couple. Thence come all mankind.

I'd be inclined to think the 12 sons and 12 daughters were the hours - 24 hours were born each Juul time from each of them.

But the Zodiac signs explanation sounds fair.

I'm not sure about your choice of stars yet.

What's your point about those decans? I know they are 10 degrees wide and that there are 36 of them.

And 36=3x12.

Believe me, I do not even have to google anything.... thirty years ago I was sometimes busy calculating horsocopes till 2 am. in the morning, and that with logarithm tables.

Twelve sons and twelve daughters.. could be the number of hours a day or simply the number of zodiak signs (or months) with each their male and female characteristics.

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So compare this with the Hinlooper almanak of 1679: 4005 - 1679 = 2326 BC. If you like 2327 BC.

I just read the Enkhuizer Alamanak of 1841, and it doesn't gives a date for the Flood, it doesn't even mention it:

D'Erve C. Stichters Enkhuizer almanak 1841

http://books.google.nl/books?id=3u8WAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=%22Enkhuizer+Almanak%22&hl=nl&sa=X&ei=e3fsTvztFozt-gagkMmJAg&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

And to Puzzler: it is crammed to the brim with astrology.

At page 74 there is a "Don Anthonio Magino" predicting the weather for that year. A pity you can't read the commentary of the composer at the end, lol.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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I just read the Enkhuizer Alamanak of 1841, and it doesn't gives a date for the Flood, it doesn't even mention it:

D'Erve C. Stichters Enkhuizer almanak 1841

http://books.google.nl/books?id=3u8WAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=%22Enkhuizer+Almanak%22&hl=nl&sa=X&ei=e3fsTvztFozt-gagkMmJAg&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

And to Puzzler: it is crammed to the brim with astrology.

At page 74 there is a "Don Anthonio Magino" predicting the weather for that year. A pity you can't read the commentary of the composer at the end, lol.

.

I didn't talk about the Enkhuizer Almanak, but about the Hindelooper Almanak of 1679. s. http://books.google.nl/books/about/Hulde_aan_Gysbert_Japiks_door_J_H_Halber.html?id=3P0CAAAAQAAJ&redir_esc=y p.194-195. I could not attach a picture of the page.

Edited by Knul

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What's your point about those decans? I know they are 10 degrees wide and that there are 36 of them.

And 36=3x12.

Believe me, I do not even have to google anything.... thirty years ago I was sometimes busy calculating horsocopes till 2 am. in the morning, and that with logarithm tables.

Twelve sons and twelve daughters.. could be the number of hours a day or simply the number of zodiak signs (or months) with each their male and female characteristics.

OK, forget the decans, Ive just been studying my star chart on the Northern Sky and this might fit, it is marked with 24 hours around the outside - which goes 1 year - each month is marked - then the Northern Sky - each 1/3 is 8 hours, marked by 2 hr portions - if you divide the circle by 3 you get the Peace symbol, lol, then into each of those portions you have 1 each of the stars you said - Lyra in one, Sirius in another and Arcturus in the other 1/3.

Here's some Norse constellations too:

http://timothystephany.com/constellations.html

More on Northern Night Sky (ancient times)

http://timothystephany.com/papers/Article01-NightSky.pdf

The oldest star chart known may be a carved ivory Mammoth tusk that was discovered in Germany in 1979. This artifact is 32,500 years old and has a carving that resembles the constellation Orion.[1] A drawing on the wall of the Lascaux caves in France has a graphical representation of the Pleiades open cluster of stars. This is dated to 33,000 to 10,000 years ago. Researcher Michael A. Rappenglueck has suggested that a panel in the same caves depicting a charging bison, a man with a bird's head and the head of a bird on top of a piece of wood, together may depict the summer triangle, which at the time was a circumpolar formation.[2] Another star chart panel, created more than 21,000 years ago, was found in the La Tête du Lion grotto. The bovine in this panel may represent the constellation Taurus, with a pattern representing the Pleiades located just above it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_chart

I'm just downloading that great old map to look at too.

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The Groninger Almanak follows the Frisian Almanak (2193), the Overijsselsche Almanak and Geldersche Almanak do not give data for the Great Flood.

Edited by Knul

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I didn't talk about the Enkhuizer Almanak, but about the Hindelooper Almanak of 1679. s. http://books.google.nl/books/about/Hulde_aan_Gysbert_Japiks_door_J_H_Halber.html?id=3P0CAAAAQAAJ&redir_esc=y p.194-195. I could not attach a picture of the page.

I know you didn't, but I did.

Anyway, here's a screenshot of that Hindelooper Almanak:

HindelooperAlm_194.jpg

1679-4005=2326 > 2326+1=2327 BC.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Found another one:

Den grooten Brugschen comptoir-almanach voor het jaar 1756, 1774, 1790

http://books.google.nl/books?id=SaVBAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA61&lpg=PA61&dq=oldenburg+almanach&source=bl&ots=rwZH8q8Yq9&sig=hHjNVx_9JDDuvF2O3-MGCy8J17s&hl=nl&sa=X&ei=2LfsTpSIBYq0-QbUnLGJAg&ved=0CB0Q6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q&f=false

Brugschencomptoir-almanach_1774.jpg

1774-4067=2293 >> 2294 BC.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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OK, forget the decans, Ive just been studying my star chart on the Northern Sky and this might fit, it is marked with 24 hours around the outside - which goes 1 year - each month is marked - then the Northern Sky - each 1/3 is 8 hours, marked by 2 hr portions - if you divide the circle by 3 you get the Peace symbol, lol, then into each of those portions you have 1 each of the stars you said - Lyra in one, Sirius in another and Arcturus in the other 1/3.

Can you make a screenshot of that one, pls?

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According to "Frisia" by Hamconius (1609), the original Frisian coat of arms had water-lily leaves ("pompebladen") in it.

frisia%2Bhamconio.jpgprincipes%2Bfrisiorvm.jpgpontifices%2Bfrisiorvm.jpgdvces%2Bfrisorvm.jpgdvces%2Bfrisiae%2Bocc.jpgvnita%2Bvtrivsqve.jpg

Why 'pomp'-leaves?

Wiki Flag of Friesland has no answer:

The Frisian flag, is the official flag of the Dutch province of Friesland. It consists of four blue and three white diagonal stripes; in the white stripes are a total of seven red pompeblêden, stylised heart-shaped leaves of yellow water-lily.

The seven red pompeblêden are a reference to the Frisian "sea countries" in the Middle Ages: independent regions along the coast from Alkmaar to the Weser who were allied against the Vikings. There were never precisely seven distinct rulers, but the number seven probably has the connotation "many."

Since the 11th century a coat of arms with pompeblêdden is known. Evidence for this lies within verses of the Gudrunlied. Round 1200 Scandinavian coats of arms reveal many traces of water-lilies and hearts, found often in combination with images of lions.

15th century books on heraldry show that two armorial bearings were derived from the early ones: a coat of arms showing lions and seven pompeblêdden transformed into little blocks, the other being the arms with the seven now known lilies on stripes.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

The following fragment of Oera Linda Book could explain why 'pomp'-leaves had a very important meaning to the old Frisians:

[OLB p.064/11] ca. 1630 BC; KÀLTA's speech:

SVNUM ÀND TOGHATRUM FRYA.S.

I WÉT WEL THÀT WI INNA LERSTE TÍD FÚL LEK ÀND BREK LÉDEN HÀVE.

THRVCHDAM THA STJURAR NAVT LÔNGER KVME VMB.VS SKRIF.FILT TO VRSELLA.

[...]

ANDA ÔRA SYDE THÉRE SKELDA HWÉR HJA TOMET THA FÉRT FON ALLE SÉA HÀVE

THÉR MÁKATH HJA HJVD.DÉGON SKRIF.FILT FON POMPA.BLÉDAR

THÉRMITH SPARATH HJA LINNENT UT ÀND KÀNATH HJA VS WEL MISTE.

NÉIDAM THÀT SKRIF.FILT MÁKJA. NV ALTI VS GRÁTESTE BIDRIV WÉST.IS.

SÁ HETH THJU MODER WILT THAT MÀN.ET VS LÉRA SKOLDE.

Improved English translation (as Sandbach had too many errors):

Sons and daughters of Frya,

you know well that we in last times have suffered much loss and misery

because the sailors no longer come to buy our writing-felt

[...]

On the other side of the Scheldt, where they almost have the trade of all seas,

there they nowadays make writing-felt of water-lily leaves.

With that they save linen and no longer need us (lit.: can they miss us).

Because the making of writing-felt has always been our greatest trade,

the mother willed that one should teach us

So first "SKRIF-FILT" was used, made of "LINNENT", later paper made of "POMPA-BLÉDAR".

In the OLB, a word for 'paper' is used only once, as "PAMPÍER" [letter Hidde (1256 AD) line 11]:

VMBE HJA NAVT TO VRLYSA HÀB IK RA VP WRLANDISK PAMPÍER VVRSKRÉVEN.

In order not to lose them, I copied them on foreign paper. (Sandbach)

The word "paper" in modern European languages never has a "M" before the second "P" (or "B"):

paber - Estonian

páipéar - Irish

papel - Spanish, Portuguese

paper - English

папир - Servian

папера - White-Russian

paperi - Finnish

papier - Dutch, Frisian, German, French, Polish, Slovakian

papir - Danish, Norwegian, Kroatian, Ukrainian (папір)

papír - Hungarian, Czech

papirja - Slovenian

papīrs - Latvian

papper - Swedish

pappír - Icelandic

papur - Welsch

popierius - Lithuanian

But in various Frisian texts, from before and after publication of the OLB, varieties with an "M" were used:

pompier: 1807, 1821, 1834, 1864, 1867, 1874, 1880, 1885, 1889, 1895, 1896 (2x), 1901, 1902, 1913, 1920, 1923, 1935, 1946

pampier: 1816, 1824, 1882

pumpier: 1855, 1871

1807 Nim dizze rijgels oon, nim oon dit lyts pompier. E. NAUTA, rymbrief, (1)

1816 De hudde Wijn dij hie wat proesd / En onder de Pampieren poesd. P.G. DEKETH, pijtter, strofenr. 46

1821 (ca.) Yn schier pompier berolle. E. HALB, freun

1824 Ho earm binne wij oon marcken, omme for-schaette, heegjende in leegjende luwden ... op it pampier mielje to kinnen. R. POSTHUMUS, prieuwcke, XIII

1834 Doe grou pompier: dat spielde er eak al gou wer ôaf. E. HALB, lapekoer III, 402

1855 Set naut dalik ol huet dy în 't sin sciet uppa 't pumpier. H. SYTSTRA, Iduna, 140

1864 De diakens ... founen okkersneins f 4000 oan Russisk pompier în 'e budel. W. DYKSTRA, nysbode, nr. 3, 3

1867 Tsjinwirdich barre de boeren al gau ris pompierkes for hiar bûter, mar destiids faek goudjild. W. DYKSTRA, wever, 20

1871 Ik (jow) jou alles în biwar end jy jowe my up libben end dead der en lîts pumpierke fen în 't bywêsen fen jou wîf end soan. G. COLMJON, Sw., 54

1874 Hy (wier) mei falske pompieren ... wer în 't lând komd. P. BLEEKSMA, F.m.n., 159

1880 Om it noazblieden, as dat al to stjelpich giet, to stuitsjen, moat me grou pompier kôgje ef in string keulsce side om 'e hals dwaen. H.G. v.d. VEEN, wrald, 48

1882 Pieter (is) oan de doar ... in greate rol pampier ûnder de earm. P.J. TROELSTRA, wiersizzery, (6)

1885 Yn forskate hûzen hinget in great pompier efter in glês mei in swarte list er om hinne ... op dat pompier stiet ... in forklearringe. M.P. TROELSTRA, Sw., 59

1889 Bûrman naem syn boekje op, der der in pompierke út krige hie, in Russiske coupon. J.D. BAARDA, forsin, 47

1895 De Eastenrykse pompieren, dy mochten wy wol fen 'e hân dwaen en keapje er wer Spaenske foar. T.W. SYTSTRA, F.m.n., 152

1896 It rint yn 'e pompieren. W. DYKSTRA, volksl. II, 388

1896 Dy faem is op skien pompier - 'heeft geen vrijer aan de hand'. W. DYKSTRA, volksl. II, 311

1901 For in tachtich goune silverjild (hie) (er) tsjin pompier wiksele. T.G. v.d. MEULEN, Sw., 94

1902 In oaren-ien, oars ek wol yn steat om moai dúdlik syn tinzen op 't pompier to bringen, skreau djarp for doarp. J. f.'e GAESTMAR, F.m.n., 187

1913 Ik hab jimme gâns to skriuwen, mar ik hab soks net wollen mei pompier en inket. E.B. FOLKERTSMA, Y.ú.e.t., 72

1920 De bank hoegde dos net safolle munt yn kas to hawwen as der pompier yn omrin wier. P.T. ZWART, Heit., 36

1923 Der wirdt yn dizze wrâld nearne sa folle liichd as op 't pompier. J.P. WIERSMA, arbeiders-jongfolk, 7

1935 Hjir lizze noch wol in pear pompierkes op 't taffeltsje. S. BOUMA, wolken, 6

1946 Men (sit) efter it swarte pompier by in lyts ljochtsje mei it daei om to kliemen. W. KOK, koarstekoeke, 80

Source: http://gtb.inl.nl/iWDB/search?actie=article&wdb=WFT&id=74583.re.d1e4142723&lemma=pampier

(Note that E. Halbertsma (1821, 1834) spelled: "pompier")

If the OLB story is right it would explain two things:

1) why the Frisian flag is made up of 'pomp'-leaves

2) why the most common old-Frisian spelling of paper was "pompier"

If the OLB was created in the 19th century, its author(s) must have been an etymology fanatic. The etymology of "pompier" seems obvious, yet nothing is said about it in the OLB, and the only time the word for paper is used, it is spelled as "pampíer", while "pompier" would be more pure.

I think this could be an important clue.

Edited by Otharus

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Otharus, you are suggesting that, because the Fryans/Frisians used these water-lily leaves to make paper, they mixed or confused two words: paper & pomp(eblêden)?

Not saying it is wrong or right, but I found a lot of alternative Dutch names voor de "gele plomp" (standard Dutch) or yellow water lily:

Gele pompelbloem, Pompelbladen, Pomper, Pomperwortel, Pompeblêden, Grote dompel, Dompelbladen, Dompels

http://www.etymologiebank.nl/trefwoord/kruik

Something nice (and I wonder where this person came from):

Me and my friends have a project in science. We need to make recycled paper from the pulp of the Water Lily leaves. (:

How do you get the pulp of the leaves and how to make it into recycled paper? Any sites to help?

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20091027030240AA4wiLn

Btw: do you have any idea what these "waak-sterren" or OLB "wak-stara" (watchstars) really are??

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Wrong again Otharus. Pampier is a 19th century word formation. This word formation is called epenthese. Epenthese. Invoeging van een klank in een woord, bijv. een m in pampier en een r in karbies, een d in duurder.

papier

Accent: pa'pier

Woordsoort: znw. o.

Modern-Nederlandse lemmavorm: papier

Uitspraak: pəpi.ər

Datering: 1809→

Varianten: pompier, Accent: pom'pier, (verouderend) Uitspraak: pompi.ər, Datering: 1807→

pampier, Accent: pam'pier, Uitspraak: pampi.ər, Datering: 1816-1903, Flexie: Plur. pampieren (-p.iərən), (-pjIrən); Dim. pampierke (-pjIrkə), (-pi.ərkə).

Dialect: Schiermonnikoogs, Hindeloopens pəpi.ər.

Etymologie: Nederlands papier, Duits Papier, Frans papier, Latijn papyrus.

+Papier.

In the OLB and in Klaas Kolyn the Frisian flag is brown.

s. http://www.wnt.inl.nl/iWDB/search?actie=article_content&wdb=WFT&id=74583

http://www.dbnl.org/tekst/_taa006190401_01/_taa006190401_01_0042.php (discussion of insert of nasal in foreign words)

http://www.etymologiebank.nl/trefwoord/papier

http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlag_van_Friesland (history of de Frisian flag)

↪Spreekwoorden:

Samenstellingen: aluminium-, asfaltpapier, autopapieren, bangmakkers-, bank-, behang-, belêstingpapier, blêdpapierke, brieve-, buordpapier, famyljepapieren, fet-, filtrear-, floei-, flues-, folio-, glâns-, goud-, hân-, húske-, yllustraasjedruk-, ynsjit-, kalkear-, karbon-, karton-, kast-, klad-, kleaster-, kletter-, kloset-, krantepapier, lânspapieren, migge-, millimeter-, munt-, nijs-, normaalpapier, oertrekpapierke, ôfdruk-, omslach-, oranje-, pak-, patroan-, perkamintpapier, pletboerd-, pokkepapierke, post-, pûdsje-, ribbeltsje-, ribke-, ritsel-, selluloaze-, syd-, side-, sierpapier, sigarettepapierke, sits-, skyt-, skuor-, skriuwpapier, steatspapieren, strie-, sulver-, tabaks-, teken-, toilet-, trochslachpapier, tsjerkepapieren, ulefelpapierke, weardepapier.

Edited by Knul

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Say Menno, do you happen to know what those "waak-sterren"/watchstars are?

++++

EDIT:

Wait a minute: pampier/papier (paper)... vampier/vapir/upir (vampire). Maybe Frisians love to add an -M- between an -A- and a -P- ??

...

Edited by Abramelin

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Maybe it would be a great idea to edit your post, Menno: your post now occupies almost an entire page with most of it being empty.

Next time don't press the [ENTER] button till it breaks, lol (with red eyes and red face, "RAAAHHHH!!! , hahaha!).

Say, do you happen to know what those "waak-sterren"/watchstars are?

++++

EDIT:

Wait a minute: pampier/papier (paper)... vampier/vapir/upir (vampire). Maybe Frisians love to add an -M- between an -A- and a -P- ??

...

I have re-edited my post. Something went wrong.

With respect to waakster I wonder, if this is a word play waak/ster (female watcher) --- waak-ster (starwatch), two different words, which are written the same, in which case it has nothing to do with astronomy. Maybe you could link it to Klaas Vaak (litt. Klaas Waak). The English a star is born has a similar disambiguity: person or star.

Nice coincidence pampier - vampier. Do you realize, that the word PAMPERS contains the same m ? Those formations make me think of Swiebertje, who often produced them. The same did/does Andre van Duin.

Can you put a prtscrn of the Hindelooper Almanak p. 195 here ?

Edited by Knul

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I have re-edited my post. Something went wrong.

With respect to waakster I wonder, if this is a word play waak/ster (female watcher) --- waak-ster (starwatch), two different words, which are written the same, in which case it has nothing to do with astronomy. Maybe you could link it to Klaas Vaak (litt. Klaas Waak). The English a star is born has a similar disambiguity: person or star.

Nice coincidence pampier - vampier. Do you realize, that the word PAMPERS contains the same m ? Those word formations make me think of Swiebertje, who often produced such word formations. The same did Andre van Duin.

I edited my post too after I saw you did yours.

=

These earth mothers, two of them (Frya and Finda), ascended or ended up at their "wâkstaer" /"waak-ster" (watchstar). You think the creators of the OLB suggested these earth mothers and maidens had lesbian relationships?

The only reference to the English "watchstar" I could find is a science fiction book about some comet (Pamela Sargent/1980: "Watchstar").

=

Pamper is made of paper-fibers (well, for some time it was). But 'to pamper' has quite a different meaning. And these 'pampers' didn't come into use during the 19th century.

In English they were called 'diapers' before that.

=

To me it looks there are many hints at 'astrology'.

Why the hell were they looking at the skies on top of those hexagonal towers in the middle of their citadels?

Just admiring the moon and being all romantic about it?

Btw: you said Halbertsma was interested in astronomy, not astrology.

But then I have something for you.

Wait a minute.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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