Join the Unexplained Mysteries community today! It's free and setting up an account only takes a moment.
- Sign In or Create Account -
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 12
Riaan

[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood

11,638 posts in this topic

Those fragments from the region of Turkey (considered to be Phrygian) are not in the same language as the OLB.

Unfortunately it's not that simple...

I don't know.

Nah, it's indeed not that simple.

So digging up a name - Phrygia(n) - that sounds similar to Frigg/Freyja - and thus trying to hint at a connection with Frya/OLB is not the way to do it.

If you read this site about Phrygia/Phrygian - http://www.maravot.com/Phrygian.html - than you will now that it is ONLY the name that is similar to Frya/Frigg.

++++

EDIT:

This site also has a lot of info on Phrygian: http://www.palaeolexicon.com/default.aspx?static=14&Language_ID=2

.

Edited by Abramelin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You could also have added this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frigg

But if Phrygian is (related to) Frisian, then try to translate these texts:

ates : arkiaevais : akenanogavos : midai : lavagtaei : vanaktei : edaes

baba : memevais : proitavos : kFiyanaveyos : sikeneman : edaes

mate.r.[--] (...) atatasm.?onokaua

..and so on.

http://titus.fkidg1.uni-frankfurt.de/texte/etcs/phrygian/phryg.htm

More here:

http://www.maravot.com/Phrygian.html

--

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygian_language'>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygian_language

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygia

I'll have a go later... :w00t:

Thought this was interesting reference to possibly Frya or at least the word was in the language.

*čiθra-: "origin".[45] The word appears in *čiθrabṛzana- (med.) "exalting his linage", *čiθramiθra- (med.) "having mithraic origin", *čiθraspāta- (med.) "having a brilliant army", etc.[46]

Farnah: Divine glory; (Avestan: khvarənah)

Paridaiza: Paradise, (as in Pardis پردیس)

Spaka- : The word is Median and means "dog".[47] Herodotus identifies "Spaka-" (Gk. "σπάχα" - female dog) as Median rather than Persian.[48] The word is still used in modern Iranian languages including Talyshi.

vazṛka-: "great" (as Modern Persian bozorg)[44]

vispa-: "all".[49] (as in Avestan). The component appears in such words as vispafryā (Med. fem.) "dear to all", vispatarva- (med.) "vanquishing all", vispavada- (med. -op.) "leader of all", etc.[50]

Xshayathiya (royal, royalty): This Median word (∗xšaθra-pā-) is an example of words whose Greek form (known as romanized "satrap" from Gk. "satrápēs - σατράπης") mirrors, as opposed to the tradition[N 3], a Median rather than an Old Persian form of an Old Iranian word.[51]

zūra-: "evil" and zūrakara-: "evil-doer".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medes

---------------------

WHatever on the age of the dictionary, I'll use what I can find that might be relevant, point being, if the OLB is what it says it is, most of these, if not all, should still be able to be found in it or something very close and even possibly show that it might be the original language of others.

I haven't finished with wer yet.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Old Frisian you read in those dictionaries cannot be exactly the same as the language spoken at least 2600 years ago.

If you believe the Fryan Empire stretched all across Northern Europe, you'll have to take other Nordic languages into account, like Old German/English/Norse/Dutch/Danish/Swedish and Gothic.

==

German: 'wieder' = another time / again

German: 'Widerstand' = resistance, opposition

.

Edited by Abramelin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

vispa-: "all".[49] (as in Avestan). The component appears in such words as vispafryā (Med. fem.) "dear to all", vispatarva- (med.) "vanquishing all", vispavada- (med. -op.) "leader of all", etc.

Aha, so "fryā" meant "dear to ..." in that word.

Interesting.

Edited by Otharus

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Aha, so "fryā" meant "dear to ..." in that word.

Interesting.

It appears to be a widespread, Indo-European word:

free (v.)

O.E. freogan "to free, liberate, manumit," also "to love, think of lovingly, honor," from freo (see free (adj.)). Cf. O.Fris. fria "to make free;" O.S. friohan "to court, woo;" Ger. befreien "to free," freien "to woo;" O.N. frja "to love;" Goth. frijon "to love." Related: Freed; freeing.

free (adj.)

O.E. freo "free, exempt from, not in bondage," also "noble; joyful," from P.Gmc. *frijaz (cf. O.Fris. fri, O.S., O.H.G. vri, Ger. frei, Du. vrij, Goth. freis "free"), from PIE *prijos "dear, beloved," from base *pri- "to love" (cf. Skt. priyah "own, dear, beloved," priyate "loves;" O.C.S. prijati "to help," prijatelji "friend;" Welsh rhydd "free"). The adverb is from O.E. freon, freogan "to free, love."

The primary sense seems to have been "beloved, friend, to love;" which in some languages (notably Germanic and Celtic) developed also a sense of "free," perhaps from the terms "beloved" or "friend" being applied to the free members of one's clan (as opposed to slaves, cf. L. liberi, meaning both "free" and "children"). Cf. Goth. frijon "to love;" O.E. freod "affection, friendship," friga "love," friðu "peace;" O.N. friðr, Ger. Friede "peace;" O.E. freo "wife;" O.N. Frigg "wife of Odin," lit. "beloved" or "loving;" M.L.G. vrien "to take to wife, Du. vrijen, Ger. freien "to woo."

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=free&searchmode=none

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is an interesting observation that "again" and "against" are related to "wér", "weer", "with", "wither", "wether", "weder, "wieder" etc., but in the four fragments I gave , "WÉR" means "back" or "again".

Here they are for the last time.

[067/22]

WILST WÉR FRY WÉSA ÀND VNDER MINA RÉD ÀND HODA LÉVA. TJÀN UT THEN. WÉPNE SKILUN THI WRDA. ÀND IK SKIL WÁKA O.ER THI.

Do you want to be free again... (etc.)

[079/18]

THJU MODER NILDET NAVT WÉR.HA

The Mother didn't want to have it back

[079/19]

IK SJA NÉN FRÉSE AN SINA WÉPNE MEN WEL VMBE THA SKÉNLANDER WÉR TO NIMMANDE THRVCH DAM HJA BASTERED ÀND VRDÉREN SIND

I see no fear in his weapons, but in taking the Skénlander back, because they are bastardised and wasted.

[153/09]

THÉRVMBE NIL HI NÉNE MODER WÉR

Therefore he doesn't want to have a mother back

...and there is others that show no connection to wér as back or again.

1. Sahwersa orloch kumth, send tha moder hira bodon nêi tha kêning, thi kêning send bodon nêi tha grêvetmanna vmbe lând-wêr.

1. If war breaks out, the mother sends her messengers to the king, who sends messengers to the Grevetmen to call the citizens to arms.

or-loch 4, afries., Sb.: nhd. Krieg; ne. war (N.); Hw.: vgl. an. チrlag, ae. orlÐge (1),

as. orlag*, ahd. urlag*, mnl. oorlog; Q.: W, Schw; I.: Lw. mnl. oorlog; E.: s. mnl.

oorlog, Sb., Krieg; vgl. germ. *uzlaga-, *uzlagaz, st. M. (a), Schicksal, Geschick;

germ. *uzlaga-, *uzlagam, st. N. (a), Schicksal, Geschick; vgl. idg. *legh-, V., sich

legen, liegen, Pokorny 658; W.: nfries. oarloge; L.: Hh 80b, Rh 972a

However, warrior is wêrar, so warrior here, is not based on the Fryan word for war (orloch) nor from war (werra) but for weir, defense. As you said Abe. Wér in wérar is defense/defender-warrior.

3. As soon as he is perfect in the use of them they are to be given to him, and he is to be admitted as a warrior.

4. After serving as a warrior three years, he may become a citizen, and may have a vote in the election of the headman.

3. Is hi bikvmen, sa jêve maen him waepne aend hi warth to wêrar slâgen.

4. Is hi thrê jêr wêrar, sâ waerth-i burch-hêr aend mêi hi hêlpa sin hâwed-manna to kjasane.

Quite frankly, I think this shows a possibilty that war is not a different word coming in from French, but possibly went out as defense/defend - wér and came back in as war, a proof that the OLB is an original language, maybe.

war could mean wér as in weir, defence/defend. Seems unlikely it would co-incidently come from another source but etymology gives us this and lots of proto words.

war

late O.E. (c.1050), wyrre, werre, from O.N.Fr. werre "war" (Fr. guerre), from Frank. *werra, from P.Gmc. *werso (cf. O.S. werran, O.H.G. werran, Ger. verwirren "to confuse, perplex"). Cognates suggest the original sense was "to bring into confusion." There was no common Germanic word for "war" at the dawn of historical times.

http://etymonline.com/?term=war

Proto-Germanic *werso is their guess. Frankish this time, *werra to French guerre - ON French werre - war

I don't think so, I'd say wér went out as defence/defend from weir/protect - they became warriors thru wérar and they defended the country.

Even as against - to defend against - that IS war.

war from werra (Frankish) will not be used in the OLB in that context.

wralda could even have this word - wér alda - old warrior/defender/protector

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is an interesting couple of sentences:

Tha thju Moder wêrd-im of that er bekwârd tojênst tha wâch strumpelde. Thâ-r wither vpa bên wêre stek er sin swêrd to ir buk in segsande, nilst min kul navt sâ skilst min swêrd ha.

She resisted him, and threw him down against the wall. When he got up, be ran his sword through her: If you will not have me, you shall have my sword.

Also, I think if the word meant 'back' in any of those quoted parts you gave Otharus, it would say 'bek'.

Just as bekward is in the above sentence. Next to tojénst.

Tojénst is 'against' in this sentence. The part with wither would really say something like: Then/when 'again' up ...

bek* 21, afries., st. M. (a): nhd. Rücken (M.); ne. back (N.); ÜG.: lat. tergum W

4, L 12; Vw.: s. ur-, ðt-er-, -fa-n-g, *-find-a, -lam-ithe*, -war-d, -war-d-ich; Hw.: vgl.

an. bak, ae. bÏc (1), as. bak*, ahd. bah* (2); Q.: R, B, E, F, H, W, W 4, L 12; E.:

germ. *baka-, *bakam, st. N. (a), Rücken (M.); idg. *bheg-, *bhog-, V., biegen,

wölben, EWAhd 1, 417, Falk/Torp 259; W.: nfries. beck; L.: Hh 6a, Rh 622a; R.:

to bek-e, afries., Adv.: nhd. zurück; ne. back (Adv.); Q.: F; L.: Hh 6a, Rh 1088b

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's always important to look at the context for the meaning of such a word; it's almost like convergent evolution in biology: similar appearence/shape, different origin.

There is another word (not sure you mentioned it) in the OLB: wêre = English: were.

Btw, I wondered why no word similar to that in the meaning of 'again' shows up in modern English.

Then I suddenly remembered someone using the name "withershins" on some board:

1. (Astronomy) in the direction contrary to the apparent course of the sun; anticlockwise

2. in a direction contrary to the usual; in the wrong direction Compare deasil

[from Middle Low German weddersinnes, from Middle High German, literally: opposite course, from wider against + sinnes, genitive of sin course]

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/withershins

1.Anti-clockwise, in the contrary direction, especially to the left or opposite to the direction of the sun.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/withershins

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is an interesting couple of sentences:

Tha thju Moder wêrd-im of that er bekwârd tojênst tha wâch strumpelde. Thâ-r wither vpa bên wêre stek er sin swêrd to ir buk in segsande, nilst min kul navt sâ skilst min swêrd ha.

She resisted him, and threw him down against the wall. When he got up, be ran his sword through her: If you will not have me, you shall have my sword.

Also, I think if the word meant 'back' in any of those quoted parts you gave Otharus, it would say 'bek'.

Just as bekward is in the above sentence. Next to tojénst.

Tojénst is 'against' in this sentence. The part with wither would really say something like: Then/when 'again' up ...

bek* 21, afries., st. M. (a): nhd. Rücken (M.); ne. back (N.); ÜG.: lat. tergum W

4, L 12; Vw.: s. ur-, ðt-er-, -fa-n-g, *-find-a, -lam-ithe*, -war-d, -war-d-ich; Hw.: vgl.

an. bak, ae. bÏc (1), as. bak*, ahd. bah* (2); Q.: R, B, E, F, H, W, W 4, L 12; E.:

germ. *baka-, *bakam, st. N. (a), Rücken (M.); idg. *bheg-, *bhog-, V., biegen,

wölben, EWAhd 1, 417, Falk/Torp 259; W.: nfries. beck; L.: Hh 6a, Rh 622a; R.:

to bek-e, afries., Adv.: nhd. zurück; ne. back (Adv.); Q.: F; L.: Hh 6a, Rh 1088b

You could have made it easy for yourself if you had read a bit further on in that pdf:

bek-war-d* 2, afries., Adj.: nhd. rückwärts gerichtet, unvorhergesehen,

unbeabsichtigt?; ne. backward (Adj.), accidental; Vw.: s. -ich; Q.: B, E; E.: s.

bek*, *-war-d;

http://www.koeblergerhard.de/germanistischewoerterbuecher/altfriesischeswoerterbuch/afries-B.pdf

"Tojenst" is nothing but "tegen" (against) in Dutch.

And that word we talked about earlier "jenst-vr" is "tegenover" in Dutch (=opposite).

.

Edited by Abramelin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

About that word, "jenst-vr" in the OLB, meaning "tegenover" (opposite) in Dutch...

It appears to show up first in West-Flemish in the 13th century:

TEJEGHENOVER

Combination of "t(e)jeghen" and "ouer".

http://gtb.inl.nl/iWDB/search?actie=article&wdb=VMNW&id=ID68182

( http://gtb.inl.nl/iWDB/search?actie=article&wdb=WNT&id=M067919.re.38 )

In fact a word closer to "jenst" is "jegens":

http://www.etymologiebank.nl/trefwoord/jegens

It's a word used before "tegen" and then meant the same: against.

.

Edited by Abramelin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's always important to look at the context for the meaning of such a word; it's almost like convergent evolution in biology: similar appearence/shape, different origin.

Oh, I am. I'll have this OLB translated into Frisian before you know it.

WILST WÉR FRY WÉSA ÀND VNDER MINA RÉD ÀND HODA LÉVA. TJÀN UT THEN.

If you wish to be free again, and take my advice, and live under my care, come away.

wilst/wille/willa(If you desire/want) wér(true/truly) fry(free) wesa(be) (and under my) réd/réda(advice) and hoda(guard) léva(live), tjan(turn) ut(out) then(away).

(If you) desire/wish (to) truly/true free be and under my advice and guard live, turn out away.

...is how it really should read according to Frisian imo.

Again, I disagree the wér in this sentence is again or back, it is true/truly imo.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh, I am. I'll have this OLB translated into Frisian before you know it.

WILST WÉR FRY WÉSA ÀND VNDER MINA RÉD ÀND HODA LÉVA. TJÀN UT THEN.

If you wish to be free again, and take my advice, and live under my care, come away.

wilst/wille/willa(If you desire/want) wér(true/truly) fry(free) wesa(be) (and under my) réd/réda(advice) and hoda(guard) léva(live), tjan(turn) ut(out) then(away).

(If you) desire/wish (to) truly/true free be and under my advice and guard live, turn out away.

...is how it really should read according to Frisian imo.

Again, I disagree the wér in this sentence is again or back, it is true/truly imo.

That's what I mean: read the context:

We now come to the History of Jon

Then came the Gauls out of the Mediterranean Sea with their ships to Cadiz, and along all our coasts, and fell upon Britain; but they could not make any good footing there, because the government was powerful and the exiles were still Frisians. But now came Kalta and said: You were born free, and for small offences have been sent away, not for your own improvement, but to get tin by your labour. If you wish to be free again, and take my advice, and live under my care, come away.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/atl/olb/olb27.htm

To me it should say "again", not "truelly".

Of course we all could meet in the middle with this translation:

If you wish to be truelly free again, and take my advice, and live under my care, come away.

.

Edited by Abramelin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's what I mean: read the context:

We now come to the History of Jon

Then came the Gauls out of the Mediterranean Sea with their ships to Cadiz, and along all our coasts, and fell upon Britain; but they could not make any good footing there, because the government was powerful and the exiles were still Frisians. But now came Kalta and said: You were born free, and for small offences have been sent away, not for your own improvement, but to get tin by your labour. If you wish to be free again, and take my advice, and live under my care, come away.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/atl/olb/olb27.htm

To me it should say "again", not "truelly".

Of course we all could meet in the middle with this translation:

If you wish to be truelly free again, and take my advice, and live under my care, come away.

.

lol yes.

As I also said this example is definitely NOT wér as again or back, nor does it seem to be true/truely, but does seem to be weir/defense.

1. Sahwersa orloch kumth, send tha moder hira bodon nêi tha kêning, thi kêning send bodon nêi tha grêvetmanna vmbe lând-wêr.

1. If war breaks out, the mother sends her messengers to the king, who sends messengers to the Grevetmen to call the citizens to arms.

This is def. wér in the use of defense/defender - wérar.

4. After serving as a warrior three years, he may become a citizen, and may have a vote in the election of the headman.

4. Is hi thrê jêr wêrar, sâ waerth-i burch-hêr aend mêi hi hêlpa sin hâwed-manna to kjasane.

wér seems to have a few meanings in the OLB. To clarify one...

Use of weir/defense:

weir

O.E. wer "dam, fence, enclosure," especially one for catching fish (related to werian "dam up"), from P.Gmc. *warjanan (cf. O.N. ver, O.Fris., M.Du. were, Du. weer, O.H.G. wari, Ger. Wehr "defense, protection," Goth. warjan "to defend, protect"), from PIE *wer- "to cover, shut" (cf. Skt. vatah "enclosure," vrnoti "covers, wraps, shuts;" Lith. uzveriu "to shut, to close;" O.Pers. *pari-varaka "protective;" L. (op)erire "to cover;" O.C.S. vora "sealed, closed," vreti "shut;" O.Ir. feronn "field," prop. "enclosed land").

wer-e (3) 20, afries., F.: nhd. Wehr (F.), Verteidigung; ne. defence;

land-wér is land defense so wér is being used for were, OE wer.

EDIT:

wer in this form could even be cover or shut, dam, fence, enclosure, protect, defend, sealed, field - enclosed land.

Edited by The Puzzler

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My problem with against or again or back as wér is that these words all have other words used in the OLB.

against = jenst-vr

again = wither

back = bek

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I will just change this slightly. advice to advice/care

WILST WÉR FRY WÉSA ÀND VNDER MINA RÉD ÀND HODA LÉVA. TJÀN UT THEN.

If you wish to be free again, and take my advice, and live under my care, come away.

wilst/wille/willa(If you desire/want) wér(true/truly) fry(free) wesa(be) (and under my) réd(advice/care) and hoda(guard) léva(live), tjan(turn) ut(out) then(away).

(If you) desire/wish (to) truly/true free be and under my care and guard live, turn out away.

---------------------

This wér is used for many words like were, was etc.

wÐr-ia, afries., sw. V. (2): nhd. bekräftigen; ne. confirm; Vw.: s. bi-; Hw.: s. wÐr;

vgl. ahd. *wõræn?; E.: germ. *wÐræn, *wÚræn, sw. V., beweisen; s. idg. *øer- (11),

*øerý-. Sb., Freundlichkeit, Pokorny 1165; L.: Hh 128a

This imo would be associated with wér - true/truely

hwêr is where

-------------------------

Must do bed, back tomorrow now.

Edited by The Puzzler

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My problem with against or again or back as wér is that these words all have other words used in the OLB.

There are many more examples of different words having the same meaning.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There are many more examples of different words having the same meaning.

I used the expression "convergent evolution" from biology.

Maybe we should introduce a new expression, "convergent etymology"?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree that Dutch and English have not been used as a base for OLB-words, but both languages carry traces of the OLB-language (with its many spelling varieties).

The same can be said for Frisian, German, the Scandinavian languages and even (less obviously) the south-European languages.

I have pointed out many times that OLB words and expressions are simply pseudo Oldfrisian calques of modern mid-19th century Dutch words and expressions, occasionally modern English (like bedrum-bedroom) and modern Frisian (like tobek = terug) and that the word order in the OLB is completely the Dutch word order (e.g. nei min ynfalda myning - naar mijn eenvoudige mening). I have also said, that the juulscript transcription contains many errors (like svnvm instaed of svna, ending -on instead of -en) and that the transcription of Ottema again contains many errors (see scan) and misinterpretations like hyrtogum instead of hertogum). To say, that Dutch and English have traces of the OLB is the world upside down, like saying that Latin and Greek have traces from modern Dutch.

Jesterdêi wêron-er mong (5) jo tham allet folk to hâpa hropa wilde [p. 8] vmb tha âstlike stâta wither to hjara plyga to tvangande. The tekst reads: to hare wopa. Hare should be hjara I would translate: tot hun wapenen, te wapen

post-115881-0-87510500-1326831627_thumb.

Edited by Knul

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have posted really old Frisian inscriptions on wood (runes) and the language used did not look anything similar to the OLB language.

But then someone said it was because it wasn't Old Frisian at all, and maybe a foreign language.

Yeah, but that language would have been nothing else but Old Saxon, and then it still should have looked a lot like the OLB language, ...IF we have to believe the OLB, that is.

The word order would have been totally alien to any Frisian, Dutch, German, and English person. The word order was also totally different from the word order used in the OLB.

.

Edited by Abramelin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have posted really old Frisian inscriptions on wood (runes) and the language used did not look anything similar to the OLB language.

Found in Friesland is not the same as Frisian.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Found in Friesland is not the same as Frisian.

No, it was probably written in Chinese.

"Sambal bij?"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have pointed out many times that OLB words and expressions are simply pseudo Oldfrisian calques of modern mid-19th century Dutch words and expressions, occasionally modern English (like bedrum-bedroom) and modern Frisian (like tobek = terug) and that the word order in the OLB is completely the Dutch word order (e.g. nei min ynfalda myning - naar mijn eenvoudige mening). I have also said, that the juulscript transcription contains many errors (like svnvm instaed of svna, ending -on instead of -en) and that the transcription of Ottema again contains many errors (see scan) and misinterpretations like hyrtogum instead of hertogum). To say, that Dutch and English have traces of the OLB is the world upside down, like saying that Latin and Greek have traces from modern Dutch.

Jesterdêi wêron-er mong (5) jo tham allet folk to hâpa hropa wilde [p. 8] vmb tha âstlike stâta wither to hjara plyga to tvangande. The tekst reads: to hare wopa. Hare should be hjara I would translate: tot hun wapenen, te wapen

I guess that is only if you are convinced it's a mid 19th century composition.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have pointed out many times that OLB words and expressions are simply pseudo Oldfrisian calques of modern mid-19th century Dutch words and expressions, occasionally modern English (like bedrum-bedroom) and modern Frisian (like tobek = terug) and that the word order in the OLB is completely the Dutch word order (e.g. nei min ynfalda myning - naar mijn eenvoudige mening). I have also said, that the juulscript transcription contains many errors (like svnvm instaed of svna, ending -on instead of -en) and that the transcription of Ottema again contains many errors (see scan) and misinterpretations like hyrtogum instead of hertogum). To say, that Dutch and English have traces of the OLB is the world upside down, like saying that Latin and Greek have traces from modern Dutch.

Jesterdêi wêron-er mong (5) jo tham allet folk to hâpa hropa wilde [p. 8] vmb tha âstlike stâta wither to hjara plyga to tvangande. The tekst reads: to hare wopa. Hare should be hjara I would translate: tot hun wapenen, te wapen

About son and sunu/sunum/svnvm...

u-stems

Masc. Fem.

Sg.

N sunu (son)feld (field) duru (door) hand (hand)

G suna felda dura handa

D suna felda dura handa

A sunu feld duru hand

Pl.

N suna felda dura handa

G suna felda dura handa

D sunum feldum durum handum

A suna felda dura handa

Also:

Here it is seen clearly how Old English lost its final -s in endings: Gothic had sunus and handus, while Old English has already sunu and hand respectively. Interesting that dropping final consonants is also a general trend of almost all Indo-European languages. Ancient tongues still keep them everywhere - Greek, Latin, Gothic, Old Prussian, Sanskrit, Old Irish; but later, no matter where a language is situated and what processes it undergoes, final consonants (namely -s, -t, often -m, -n) disappear, remaining nowadays only in the two Baltic languages and in New Greek

http://babaev.tripod.com/archive/grammar41.html

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No, it was probably written in Chinese.

If you want to be a skeptic, you should not just believe want you want to believe.

In the Netherlands objects with texts in Latin from the time of the Roman occupation were also found.

That does not mean that Latin was the main language spoken by the people in the time those objects were made.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jesterdêi wêron-er mong jo tham allet folk to hâpa hropa wilde vmb tha âstlike stâta wither to hjara plyga to tvangande.

The tekst reads: to hare wopa.

Hare should be hjara

I would translate: tot hun wapenen, te wapen

In the transliteration by Ottema that you quoted, WOPA indeed was changed into HROPA. Ottema must have assumed a copyist error.

He was wrong. Hettema's dictionary has:

Wopa, woapje, alarm roepen, geschreeuw maken, noodschreijen. W.130.

English: call/ cry alarm

It is not clear if the word before WOPA is spelled HÁPE or HÁRE, but it must be HÁPE as that word is more often used (also as HÁPA) in a similar context.

First, the fragment under discussion, with various translations, then other relevant fragments to compare.

[003/20]

JESTERDÉI WÉRON.ER MONG JO THAM ALLET FOLK TO HÁPE WOPA WILDE VMB THA ÁSTLIKA STÁTA WITHER TO HJARA PLYGA TO TVANGANDE.

Yesterday there were among you that wanted to 'call all people to heaps' (gather and prepare them for battle), to force the eastern states (back) to their (old) habits.

[Ottema p.8]

Gisteren waren er onder u, die al het volk te hoop roepen wilden om de oostelijke Staten weder tot hare plicht te dwingen.

[Jensma p.77]

Gisteren waren er onder u, die al het volk te hoop wilden roepen om de oostelijke staten weer tot hun gewoonten te dwingen.

[sandbach p.8]

Yesterday there were among you those who would have called the whole people together, to compel the eastern states to return to their duty.

- - - - - -

Other fragments with the word HÁPA/ HÁPE in a similar context:

[037/26]

NV SKOLDE ÀJDER WÁNA THÀT HJA VRAL.ET FOLK TO HÁPE HWOPN* HÉDE VMBE VS ALGADUR TO.T.LAND UT TO DRIWANDE.

(* a letter, probably E is added between O and P, but should more likely have been placed between P and N)

[Ottema p.55 (Jensma has similar translation)]

Nu zoude ieder wanen dat zij overal het volk te hoop geroepen hadden, om ons allen te zamen het land uit te drijven.

[sandbach p.55]

one would have thought that they would have called all the people together to drive us out of the land

[066/11]

THA STRÁMADA THÀT OR.A SKELDA FOLK TO HÁPA.

Then the 'Ora Skelda' (Over de Scheldt) people 'streamed to heaps' (prepared for battle).

[Ottema p.93]

Toen stroomde het andere Schelda volk te hoop.

[Jensma p.203]

Toen stroomde het Over de Schelde-volk te hoop.

[sandbach p.93]

Then the other Schelda people poured out towards her.

[195/22]

MEN NW HLIP ALLET ÔRA FOLK TO HÁPE ÀND THA RIKA WÉRON BLÍDE THAT HJA HÉL HÚDIS FON THÉRE ACHT OF KÉMON.

but now all other people revolted and the rich were glad... (etc.)

[Ottema p.235 (Jensma has similar translation)]

maar nu liep al het andere volk te hoop, en de rijken waren blijde dat zij heelhuids van de vergadering afkwamen.

[sandbach p.235]

so all the people rose up, and the rich were glad to get out of the assembly with whole skins.

- - - - - -

The Dutch expression "te hoop lopen" means: "in opstand komen" (source: http://nl.wikiquote.org/wiki/Nederlandstalige_gezegden ); to revolt.

(In the time of the VOC (Dutch United East India Company), the term "hooploper" was used for young sailor's assistants (lichtmatroos).)

Conclusion:

I don't agree that the word is HARE and should be HJARA. It is HÁPE.

WOPA is a known Oldfrisian word.

Edited by Otharus

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 12

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.