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Riaan

[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood

11,638 posts in this topic

You forget the Verwijs/ Over de Linden/ Stadermann theory.

I will not waste my time with that.

If you think it's worth discussing, why don't you give a summary for the other forum members?

... you rather believe in the authenticity of the OLB and in the honesty of Over de Linden and his criminal friend.

If you mean Stadermann, he was only the neighbor of Over de Linden for one year, I think 1845.

That was also the only year they have been hanging out together, according to OdL's son.

This son must have been a liar too, or what?

Secondly, Stadermann was not a criminal, but a political refugee;

A mistake many people make nowadays.

Edited by Otharus

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Now you tell me: are the Dutch suppressing the OLB?

OLB-related books in Frisian public libraries (Tresoar not included)

Leeuwarden

- Jensma: Gemaskerde God (2004)

- Jensma: Oera Linda-boek (2006)

Sneek

- Jensma: Gemaskerde God (2004)

- Jensma: Oera Linda-boek (2006)

Dokkum

- Jensma: Gemaskerde God (2004)

Heerenveen

- Jensma: Gemaskerde God (2004)

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... it will be difficult to find a publisher which has different views from Jensma's.

You have difficulties finding a publisher for your book?

I don't think that is because your view is different from Jensma's, it's just not good enough.

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You must be incredibly naive.

I can't blame you.

Ignorance is bliss.

Well, you must live in fairy land if you really think the OLB is being suppressed.

I showed you a list of 38 books about the OLB, and you can find them all in the Dutch Royal Library in The Hague.

You have anything to say about that?

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Well, you must live in fairy land if you really think the OLB is being suppressed.

I think we are talking about something different.

I guess you mean suppressed by the government or something, like political suppression.

I will try to explein better what I mean:

Before I found this forum, I have tried a few times to make the Dutch Wiki-page about the OLB a bit more neutral. It had been set up by a Jensma adept and he would not allow a single change. There other views than that of Jensma and his followers were suppressed in that sense.

Jensma in his book suggests that 'followers' of Ottema are idiots, nazis and other 'suspicious' people.

How encouraging is that?

When I started asking difficult questions to the research group that is investigating the OLB-paper (lead by guess who, Jensma), they answered that they would not give any further information.

In the beginning of this thread you claimed that no-one in the Netherlands or Friesland believed in OLB's authenticity and you suggested that it's so selfevident that it's fake that to believe it one has to be very stupid. I think you also suggested once that it's only neonazis who like it.

What about the fact that in Ottema's obituary from the Fries Genootschap, his lifework the OLB is not even mentioned? Appearantly it was a painful, embassaring subject.

I have heard about people losing their mind, studying the OLB.

To have one's belief system challenged can be a very scary thing.

People tend to suppress difficult or painful thoughts and memories.

They do this to themselves and others, no government needed.

Edited by Otharus

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I showed you a list of 38 books about the OLB, and you can find them all in the Dutch Royal Library in The Hague.

I know that, I was talking about normal public libraries.

See my list of public libraries in Friesland.

Only Jensma there and only two of them actually have his edition of the OLB (fascimile, transcription, crappy translation and his Haverschmidt theory).

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I think we are talking about something different.

I guess you mean suppressed by the government or something, like political suppression.

I will try to explain better what I mean:

Before I found this forum, I have tried a few times to make the Dutch Wiki-page about the OLB a bit more neutral. It had been set up by a Jensma adept and he would not allow a single change. There other views than that of Jensma's were suppressed in that sense.

Jensma in his book suggests that 'followers' of Ottema are idiots, nazis and other 'suspicious' people.

How encouraging is that?

When I started asking difficult questions to the research group that is investigating the OLB-paper, they answered that they would not give any further information.

In the beginning of this thread you claimed that no-one in the Netherlands or Friesland believed in OLB's authenticity and you suggested that it's so selfevident that it's fake that to believe it one has to be very stupid. I think you also suggested once that it's only neonazis who like it.

What about the fact that in Ottema's obituary from the Fries Genootschap, his lifework the OLB is not even mentioned? Appearantly it was a painful, embassaring subject.

I have heard about people losing their mind, studying the OLB.

To have one's belief system challenged can be a very scary thing.

People tend to suppress difficult or painful thoughts and memories.

They do this to themselves, no government needed.

Let me first start with that remark I underlined...

I am a 100 % sure that I posted saying that even though I do not believe in the OLB myself it doesn't mean I think that those who do must be neo-nazis. I think I have posted that a couple of times, and I am quite sure you knew that before you posted. Just that a Himmmler fell in love with the OLB doesn't mean everybody else who believes in the OLB must automatically be a pervert like he was. And if a Jensma really suggested what you said he suggested... well, I already told you my respect for this 'professor' is thin as paper.

-

About that Wiki page (and I talk from experience): always the best thing to do is create your own Wiki page if you have the impression that whatever you post will be edited beyond recognition or completely deleted. However, make sure you don't give that Wiki page the same title as the one we all know of, or else the owner of that Wiki page will send in a complaint and either your page will be deleted before they warn you, or you will be forced to change the title (I talk about how things went years ago; don't know about the present situation).

-

You heard about people losing their mind while studying the OLB because it challenges their belief system? That only means they are not very flexible and would have had problems with anything out of the ordinary and not publically accepted material.

-

A research group - while still in the process of research - hardly ever answers questions about their research. And you know how long it took for the results of the research performed on the Dead Sea Scrolls took to be published? Many decades.

-

About Ottema's obituary: could it not have been his work on the OLB was left out on request of his family to 'protect his reputation' which had suffered quite a lot because it?

.

Edited by Abramelin

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I know that, I was talking about normal public libraries.

See my list of public libraries in Friesland.

Only Jensma there and only two of them actually have his edition of the OLB (fascimile, transcription, crappy translation and his Haverschmidt theory).

But as you know, like 80 or more percent of the Dutch population owns a computer and has access to the internet.

A quick search gave me this:

http://www.oeralindaboek.nl/dossiers/dossier13.php

http://www.oeralindaboek.nl/dossiers/dossier4.php

http://www.wumkes.nl/index.php?volg=4&id=21

http://katalogus.tresoar.nl/DB=1/CMD?ACT=SRCHA&IKT=53&SRT=YOP&TRM=OLB A 5

http://www.theosofie.nl/bibliotheek/collectie/randgebieden/ran-8-1-mysterie/

I am still convinced Dutch organizations are not trying to hide the OLB from public view for whatever reason.

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I am still convinced Dutch organizations are not trying to hide the OLB from public view for whatever reason.

I didn't say that.

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About Ottema's obituary: could it not have been his work on the OLB was left out on request of his family to 'protect his reputation' which had suffered quite a lot because it?

Whether it was Ottema's relatives or the Fries Genootschap, the fact that OLB was his lifework, that he was 'Mister OLB', that he had become internationally known for it etc., was left out of his obituary from 1879.

Four years earlier (1875), another publication from the Genootschap was still very positive about the OLB and Ottema's work on it.

Something happened between 1875 and 1879, and I know exactly what: Beckering Vinkers aggressive pseudo-scientific publication (1876), which "aimed at ridiculing the OLB" as he admitted. After this no-one dared to speak positively about it. The effect of this publication was suppression of the OLB. The subject had become taboo.

Edited by Otharus

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Whether it was Ottema's relatives or the Fries Genootschap, the fact that OLB was his lifework, that he was 'Mister OLB', that he had become internationally known for it etc., was left out of his obituary from 1879.

Four years earlier (1875), another publication from the Genootschap was still very positive about the OLB and Ottema's work on it.

Something happened between 1875 and 1879, and I know exactly what: Beckering Vinkers aggressive pseudo-scientific publication (1876), which "aimed at ridiculing the OLB" as he admitted. After this no-one dared to speak positively about it. The effect of this publication was suppression of the OLB. The subject had become taboo.

So you think it was because of Beckering Vinkers' attack on the OLB no one else wanted to burn their fingers on the OLB.

But from the lists of publications (books and newspaper articles) about the OLB I do not get the impression that that taboo lasted for very long. And then I mean the more positive publications.

Four years is nothing: it takes times to research and write a book or to contradict someone like a Beckering Vinkers.

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In case you never heard of the psychological term, google "projection".

Indeed, people who don't take truth very seriously themselves, will find it easier to accuse others of lying.

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And yes, most Dutch think it is ridiculous there are people who believe in it, but that's about it.

Most Dutch have never even heard of it and most of the few who have, hardly know anything more than what they know from hearsay.

But yes, many of those few will talk like you at the beginning of this thread, that no sane person would believe it and that it would be a self-evident hoax.

My point is: it's not that obvious and it would deserve a serious unbiassed multidisciplinary investigation.

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So you think it was because of Beckering Vinkers' attack on the OLB no one else wanted to burn their fingers on the OLB.

But from the lists of publications (books and newspaper articles) about the OLB I do not get the impression that that taboo lasted for very long. And then I mean the more positive publications.

The next serious attempt was by Wirth in the early thirties.

After that it became even more taboo, but still Overwijn tried in the fourties.

Four years is nothing: it takes times to research and write a book or to contradict someone like a Beckering Vinkers.

BV's article is scientifically worthless, I'm serious, it's utter rubbish.

(Note that in another article he argued that Over de Linden would have created the OLB all by himself.)

But his appeal to ridicule and strong terms did succeed in demotivating and silencing Ottema and his supporters.

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Otharus, I must say that I enjoyed all your recent posts tremendously. You have given me even more confidence that you and I are not the only ones who believe in the authenticity of the OLB, and that we are, in fact, in very good company. The only ones who still disagree are Abe and Cormac. (I won't express my thoughts on Knul's views)

As for the "suppresion" of the OLB, please read again my posts in early December which totally support your view:

My post 8256 dated 3 December 2011 (translation of an article on the Oera Linda Book on the Dutch website Semafoor.net of the academic study group, SEM.)

My post 8294 dated 5 December 2011 (Albert Delahaye censored by Dutch academics i.e. he was not allowed to quote the OLB)

My post 8295 dated 5 December 2011 (Prof. Jensma’s theory and Tresoar)

Jensma alleges the following (P.188): “Neither Molenaar nor Vleer dared, and it typified the Netherland situation, declare the book outright authentic”.

As with your posts, mine were just glossed over and conveniently forgotten. Instead, our fellow debaters quickly reverted back to linguistics and etymology where they are not bound by facts.

Abramelin and Cormac insist that my book be vindicated by professionals; yet, they as "lay men", (I do not know Cormac's background) consider themselves qualified to pronounce my views as being absurd. Abe has already indicated on a few occassions that he would like to get the honour of proving the OLB to be authentic. In order to do so, of course, he first have to convince everybody else that my work is worthless.

I must say that it is quite frustrating to realise that we could have been so much further down the line in reconstructing Europe's pre-history here, than the endless bickering by non-professionals about the origin of words.

Alewyn, nice to to hear from you again.

I think many people appreciate your kind of work. You could find support and learn from each other as people like Berend Willem Hietbrink/Poorterman.

These people learn us a new (non-conventional as learned by Latin scolar system) way to approach our mother language.

Abramelin is also fan :-)

Backed by eminent scolars 'Vrank en Vry', whatever the established views are in this respect.

That Scytisch/Diets history (more broad than only Fries) has been researched in detail, not by idiots as easily shouted.

Berend Willem Hietbrink, as I understood, has (had?) a South African partner that understood Flemish (Schrieck Morini's) dialects way better than the polished dutch speaking reporters.

I can fully understand your quest for facts. Berend Willem knows how to interprete oeralinda and its history, may be you can have chat.

In case of suppression: he can share his views also ;-)

Below an extract of the 'taalschrift' forum where is boldly stated to ban posts of Hietbrink.

Before, I had a good laugh of how wonderfull Hietbrink explains his views.

From the origine of our words, he knows our past.

And a part of us don't even think it can be true, because it is too outrageous in the current thought ans the civilised Romans/Greek told us otherwise lol

CaptureBWH.png

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I think the high relevance of my post about Ottema was missed.

Ottema's darkest side

[...]

Ottema to L.F. Over de Linden (translated from letter in Dutch dated 26-1-1876):

"[...] An animosity that will not end until the people of Finda and Lyda will be exterminated, and the people of Frya at the final victory will remain and inherit and posess the whole earth.

This animosity dominates all of history in the OLB and still goes on in our days. Frya's people pervade in all continents and establish European supremacy all over the earth. Everywhere the peoples of Finda and Lyda will have to submit or disappear."

[...]

If he wrote things like this to Over de Linden he may have talked like this too, in meetings of the Genootschap, informally, or who knows where and when.

It may have been a good thing to shut him up.

If only he would have listened to Cornelis and chosen a better translation of that little odd word in the creation myth...

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

I am happy with Alewyn's 2nd edition, but I must admit that I am disappointed that, despite my several posts here about it, he chose to copy the mistake from Ottema that was copied by Sandbach. It might seem to be a tiny detail, but it makes a huge difference.

Alewyn, can you explain?

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Since "Neef Teunis" in the OLB has been one of the main arguments to not take it seriously, this post also deserves a second thought.

Dr. Ottema in a letter to L.F. Over de Linden, dated 13-6-1876 (translated from Dutch):

"On a memorial stone of Domburg Neef Teunis is standing next to Nehalennia.

You can also see him on the tower of Zierikzee, where he has the job of weather vane,

and all his life was known to the people of Zierikzee as nothing other than Neef Teunis."

neefteuniszierikzeecloseup.jpg

Image of the weather vane in Zierikzee, known to the 19th century inhabitants as "Neef Teunis" (old-Dutch name for Neptune?).

Appearantly, before OLB was published, there WAS a tradition in Holland to call Neptune "neef Teunis" (cousin Tony).

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alhambra2.jpg

cijfersOLB.jpg

Which version looks more original?

If you'd ask me, I'd say that it looks like the Alhambra artist had once seen the Jol-numbers, but didn't exactly remember and tried to reconstruct from his memory.

The OLB-version makes more sense to me.

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Because Abe has challenged me several times to post something in favor of the hoax-theories, I will for once descend to that level.

Why François Haverschmidt might have written the OLB.

(Not mentioned by Jensma, as far as I know.)

Under the pseudonym "Piet Paaltjens", he wrote this poem ca. 1850:

Aan Rika

Slechts éénmaal heb ik u gezien. Gij waart

Gezeten in een sneltrein, die den trein,

Waar ik mee reed, passeerde in volle vaart.

De kennismaking kon niet korter zijn.

En toch, zij duurde lang genoeg, om mij

Het eindloos levenspad met fletsen lach

Te doen vervolgen. Ach! geen enkel blij

Glimlachje liet ik meer, sinds ik u zag.

Waarom ook hebt gij van dat blonde haar,

Daar de engelen aan te kennen zijn? En dan,

Waarom blauwe ogen, wonderdiep en klaar?

Gij wist toch, dat ik daar niet tegen kan?

En waarom mij dan zo voorbijgesneld,

En niet als de weerlicht 't rijtuig opgerukt,

En om mijn hals uw armen vastgekneld,

En op mijn mond uw lippen vastgedrukt?

Gij vreesdet mooglijk voor een spoorwegramp?

Maar, Rika, wat kon zaalger voor mij zijn,

Dan, onder hels geratel en gestamp,

Met u verplet te worden door één trein?

[OLB 189/02] use of the name Rika

BRÉF FON RIKA THJU ALD.FÁM. VPSÉID TO STÁVEREN BY.T JOL.FÉRSTE.

[OLB 009/18] blue eyes

FRYA WAS WIT LIK SNÉI BY.T MÔRNE.RÁD ÀND THAT BLÁW HJRAR ÔGNUM. WN.ET JETA THÉRE RÉINBÔGE OF.

[OLB 009/22] this must be about (light-) blond hair

LIK STRÉLON THÉRE MIDDÉI SVNNE BLIKADON HJRA HÉRON THÉR SA FIN WÉRON AS RACH.

If I think it's a strong argument?

No, ofcourse not.

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Otharus loves to pretend to know about psychology. Heh, ok, either he has studied it or has been the subject of a study, lol.

Just reread this.

I actually found something about which I thought "Damn, this might be something!", so I was curious what he would think of it for I was sure he would be interested.

Abramelin, on 28 January 2012 - 12:01 AM, said:

Say, Otharus, you have any info on that Basque writer who claimed to have seen a 16th century family chronicle that was about a history of times immemorial?

This is his answer:

No.

Are you trying to distract me?

I am busy.

I thought WTF?!!

OK, I posted about that "White Island of the Dead" (the "White Bank") in the North Sea, because archeological research of that area could be interesting because the legend about the island dates from at least the 6th century.

But apparently both these posts were not interesting enough for "Jut" and "Yule" (lol).

Too distracting no doubt...

==

Now a couple of quotes from the past days (A= Alewyn, the rest if from Otharus):

You just perfectly demonstrated the extremely intolerant climate here (and elsewhere in the world), created by people like yourself, against people who dare to speak out their thoughts that deviate from the main stream.

A few hundred years ago, people like you would love to go look at the live burning (or worse) of heretics in public.

A: Abe has already indicated on a few occassions that he would like to get the honour of proving the OLB to be authentic. In order to do so, of course, he first have to convince everybody else that my work is worthless.

A: ...than the endless bickering by non-professionals about the origin of words.

A: In my opinion, the first requirement for professionalism is truthfulness. You should try it some time.

If you'd read all of Cornelis' letters and diaries, you'd probably come to a different conclusion, unless you are as paranoid as Jensma.

You must be incredibly naive.

I think you also suggested once that it's only neonazis who like it.

Indeed, people who don't take truth very seriously themselves, will find it easier to accuse others of lying.

Because Abe has challenged me several times to post something in favor of the hoax-theories, I will for once descend to that level.

Of course I responded, don't worry.

But now for something completely different.....

:P

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From the OLB:

Thit stêt inna Waraburch by thêre aldega mvda wryt.

Thju wâraburch nis nên fâmnaburch, men thêr in wrdon alla uthêmeda aend vrlandeska thinga wârath, thêr mitbrocht binne thrvch tha stjurar. Hju is thri pêla, thaet is en half ty sûdwarth fon Mêdêa-sblik lêgen.

THIS IS INSCRIBED ON THE WARABURGT BY THE ALDEGAMUDE.

The Waraburgt is not a maiden’s city, but the place where all the foreign articles brought by sailors were stored. It lies three hours south from Medeasblik.

Nw wil ik selva skriwa êrost fon over min burch and than over hwat ik hav muge sjan.

To tha lersta kêmon wi to-t Alderga. By-t suderhâvahâved stêt thju Wâraburch, en stênhus, thêrin send allerlêja skulpa, hulka, wêpne aend klathar wârad, fon fêre landum, thrvch tha stjurar mith brocht. En fjardêl dâna is-t Alderga. En grâte flyt omborad mith lothum, husa aend gârdum, ella riklik sjarad. Invpper flyt lêi en grâte flâte rêd, mith fônon fon allerlêja farwa.

NOW I WILL WRITE MYSELF, FIRST ABOUT MY CITADEL, AND THEN ABOUT WHAT I HAVE BEEN ABLE TO SEE.

At last we came to Alderga. At the head of the south harbour lies the Waraburgt, built of stone, in which all kinds of clothes, weapons, shells, and horns are kept, which were brought by the sea-people from distant lands. A quarter of an hour’s distance from there is Alderga, a great river surrounded by houses, sheds, and gardens, all richly decorated. In the river lay a great fleet ready, with banners of all sorts of colours.

===

An anagram for WRALDA is ARWALD, tried it out, and this is what I found:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arwald

I was just having fun with an online anagram program.

But on tht Wiki page I clicked on a link in the list of references:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kings_of_the_Isle_of_Wight

However, the name for the "Men of Wight" was "Wihtwara" and their fort "Wihtwarasburgh".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kings_of_the_Isle_of_Wight

In the ancient Saxon settlement of Canterbury, a district of Kent in South East England, we find the possible origin of the Ware surname. "Canterbury was once Cani-wara-burgh, or the borough of the Kent people. Wara, in the old name Cant-wara-burgh, reminds us of the prefix and affix War, ... 'The compounds of the Anglo-Saxon word ware = occupants, inhabitants, are too numerous to leave any doubt as to this and several other derivations. Cant-ware = Cant-icolae = people of Kent; Hwic-ware = Hwiccas = the people of parts of Worcestershire....'." Source: Chambers's journal, Vol. 26, By William Chambers, Robert Chambers, p. 329.

http://www.warefamilyhistory.com/

This might explain what the OLB "Waraburgt" really meant.

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I actually found something about which I thought "Damn, this might be something!", so I was curious what he would think of it for I was sure he would be interested.

So, what was that old family chronicle about?

My "no" was a straight answer to your question if I knew anything about it and yes, I was busy translating at that time.

Since you were not replying to any of my posts and kept coming with trivial questions I wondered if you were trying to distract me.

But it wasn't ment as harsh as it may have sounded.

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This might explain what the OLB "Waraburgt" really meant.

Nice find!

"WARA" btw is also a verb in the OLB.

Edited by Otharus

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So, what was that old family chronicle about?

My "no" was a straight answer to your question if I knew anything about it and yes, I was busy translating at that time.

Since you were not replying to any of my posts and kept coming with trivial questions I wondered if you were trying to distract me.

But it wasn't ment as harsh as it may have sounded.

It was a Basque writer who had returned to his hometown, visited a local library and found a 17th or 16th cntury old family chronicle of his family of which he claimed that it went back to 'times immemorial'. He didn't say anything further about it, and went on to say he had used it as a basis for his novel (fiction).

=

As far as I know I replied to any of your questions to me:

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=184645&st=9705

Anyway, let's cut the personal bull and focus on the OLB and anything connected with it.

+++++

EDIT:

I am willing to send that writer an email, and ask him about that family chronicle. All I need is an email address.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Nice find!

"WARA" btw is also a verb in the OLB.

But the OLB suggests (see my post) "Wara" is about wares: merchandize, valuables, "stuff" (think "warehouse").

However, the Anglo-Saxon/English source says it's about "occupants, inhabitants".

.

Edited by Abramelin

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