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Riaan

[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood

11,638 posts in this topic

If you want to understand the "old Fryans" from the OLB, I would advise to take a more holistic view of Frisian cultural history, like I try to do.

One of the things you will learn, is that their language was far more rich in words and expressions that refer to sexuality, than modern Dutch, English and German together.

That subject, BTW, was one of Joost Halbertsma's passions.

You have convinced me. Your interpretation is correct.

(It sometimes just take a bit longer)

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Have a good look at the following fragment, and note that both Ottema and Sandbach self-censored, as I will prove:

[082/19]

HWIL THAT ALREK DROK TO KÀMPANE WÉRE

WAS THÉR EN WLA FIN TO THÉRE FLÉTE JEFTHA BEDRUM FON THÉRE MODER INLET.

ÁND WILDE HJA NÉDGJA.

THA THJU MODER WÉRDIM OF THAT ER BEKWÁRD TOJÉNST THA WÁCH STRUMPELDE.

THÁ.R WITHER VPA BÉN WÉRE STEKER SIN SWÉRD TO IR BUK IN. SEGZANDE.

NILST MIN KUL NAVT SÁ SKILST MIN SWÉRD HA.

Ottema (1876):

Terwijl iedereen druk aan het vechten was,

was er een leelijke Fin in de (fleete) of het slaapvertrek van de Moeder binnen geslopen,

en wilde haar geweld aandoen.

De Moeder weerde hem af, dat hij ruggelings tegen de wand tuimelde.

Toen hij weder op de been was, stak hij haar zijn zwaard in de buik, zeggende:

wilt gij mijne roede niet, zoo zult gij mijn zwaard hebben.

Sandbach (1876):

While the fight was going on,

a rascally Finn stole into the chamber of the mother,

and would have done her violence.

She resisted him, and threw him down against the wall.

When he got up, be ran his sword through her:

If you will not have me, you shall have my sword.

Jensma (2006):

Terwijl een ieder druk aan het vechten was,

was er een vuile Fín in de 'fleete' of slaapkamer van de Moeder geslopen

en wilde haar verkrachten.

Maar de Moeder weerde 'm af zodat-ie achteruit tegen de wand strompelde.

Toen-ie weer op de been was, stak-ie zijn zwaard in haar buik, zeggende:

"Wil je mijn kul niet, dan zul je mijn zwaard hebben."

Raubenheimer (2011, p.371):

While everybody was fiercely fighting,

a vile Finn slipped into the bedroom of the mother

and wanted to violate her.

She fought him off so that he fell backwards against the wall.

When he got up, he ran his sword through her abdomen saying:

"If you will not have me, you shall have my sword".

Old-Frisian dictionary (1832) Hettema about NEDGA:

_nedgaHH.jpg

NÉDGJA = NEDGA = to rape (Dutch: verkrachten)

Frisian dictionary (1896) Dijkstra & Buitenrust Hettema about KUL:

_kulDijkstra.jpg

KUL = penis

There are many reasons to reject the translation 'od = hatred' by Ottema. Besides Oldfrisian juridical texts are rather explicit. No wonder, that one find many slang words in Oldfrisian dictionaries.

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You have convinced me. Your interpretation is correct.

(It sometimes just take a bit longer)

Thank you, no worries.

I'm also learning to explain things better, before I'm ready to publish anything on paper.

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The matter is, that there is no trace of the old Frisian mythology in the OLB whatsoever. The name Ocko does not belong to mythology. If Ocko Scharlensis is meant, than he was not a mythological person, but an historian. Tutia was not a vestal virgin, but a burchfam at Cadiz. It would not be wise of the author to use a Roman phenomenon in pre-Roman times.

I announced that I added a new chapter on the typography of the OLB to my website (in Dutch). The typography so far has not been studied. It might be interesting for you.

No trace? What about the story of Friso? And Foste/Fasta? Asega Askar (OLB)/Asega Ascon?

The name Occo shows up in an online book I posted the link to, including a screenshot of a page in that book where 'an' Occo is mentioned as some druid. I had hoped you or Otharus or anyone who is able to read Latin was willing to post a translation, because I do realize that I may have been wrong.

What was known about Scarlensis? Read this: http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocko_Scharlensis

The OLB Tutia is a burchfam at Cadiz. "Veste" is an old word for stronghold or fortress, 'fam' could be translated as 'virgin', so if I add this up I can translate "Tutia the burchfam" to "Tutia the Veste Virgin".

So by that we have a "Tutia the Veste Virgin" who resembles that other one, "Tutia the Vestal Virgin" quite a lot.

But you wil say, "No, the OLB Tutia lived in Kadik, the Roman Tutia lived in Rome (or wherever in Italy), and that she lived far earlier than the Roman version.

You agree with me that a 'veste' would be a correct translation of 'burch'?

You agree with me that 'virgin' is a possible translation of 'fam' (and yes, I know about 'maiden')?

I am pretty sure I am close concerning the identity of this Tutia.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Yeah, goodo, so any opinion on the word daughter?

"togathera" = daughters, and not 'together'.

togather >> togther >> (Dutch:) dochter = daughter.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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No trace? What about the story of Friso? And Foste/Fasta? Asega Askar (OLB)/Asega Ascon?

The name Occo shows up in an online book I posted the link to, including a screenshot of a page in that book where 'an' Occo is mentioned as some druid. I had hoped you or Otharus or anyone who is able to read Latin was willing to post a translation, because I do realize that I may have been wrong.

What was known about Scarlensis? Read this: http://nl.wikipedia....cko_Scharlensis

The OLB Tutia is a burchfam at Cadiz. "Veste" is an old word for stronghold or fortress, 'fam' could be translated as 'virgin', so if I add this up I can translate "Tutia the burchfam" to "Tutia the Veste Virgin".

So by that we have a "Tutia the Veste Virgin" who resembles that other one, "Tutia the Vestal Virgin" quite a lot.

But you wil say, "No, the OLB Tutia lived in Kadik, the Roman Tutia lived in Rome (or wherever in Italy), and that she lived far earlier than the Roman version.

You agree with me that a 'veste' would be a correct translation of 'burch'?

You agree with me that 'virgin' is a possible translation of 'fam' (and yes, I know about 'maiden')?

I am pretty sure I am close concerning the identity of this Tutia.

.

Apparently you have an other idea about mythology. For me mythology deals with gods and godesses.

Edited by Knul

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Apparently you have an other idea about mythology. For me mythology deals with gods and godesses.

The main characters in myths are usually gods, supernatural heroes and humans

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mythology

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3. I don't see your literal translation of that sentence anywhere.

I have something much better:

-1- Thâ hja blât kêmon spisde Wr.alda hjam mith sina âdama;

-2- til thju tha maenneska an him skolde bvnden wêsa.

-3- Ring as hja rip wêron krêjon hja früchda aend nochta anda drâma Wr.aldas.

-4- Od trâd to-ra binna.

-5- aend nw bârdon ek twilif svna aend twilif togathera ek joltid twên.

-6- Thêrof send alle maenneska kêmen.

-1- When they came naked (were born naked), Wr-alda fed her/them with his breath

-2- in order that men should be bound to him.

-3- As soon as they were ripe (=mature) they rejoyced and enjoyed Wr-alda's dreams.

-4- Small ones tread inside them.

-5- and now each bore twelve sons and twelve daughters each Juul-time a twin (-or "two"-).

-6- Thence come all mankind.

blât - Du: bloot - En: naked

spisde - Du: Spijsde - En: fed

âdama - Du: adem - En: breath

früchda - Du: verheugden- En: rejoyced

nochta - Du: geneugte//genoegen/genoten - En: enjoyed

I used the Dutch Etymologiebank site and the Old Frisian Dictionary.

*od-ie, afries., Sb.: Vw.: s. klê-n >>

klê-n, afries., Adj.: Vw.: s. klê-n-e >>

klê-n-e, afries., Adj.: nhd. klein, schmal, dünn; ne. small

In ancient times spermcells/semen were/was supposed to carry 'little humans'

spermhomunculus.gif

http://koeblergerhard.de/afrieswbhinw.html

No that ancient times, of course, they needed a microsope to see spermcells.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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... drâma Wr.aldas.

-4- Od trâd ...

Why do you keep misplacing the point?

wraldasoddots.jpg

Edited by Otharus

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früchda - Du: verheugden- En: rejoyced

FRÜCHDA = literally: vruchten (fruits) or metaphorically: vreugde(n) (joy(s))

See the several places where it is used in the manuscript.

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Why do you keep misplacing the point?

wraldasoddots.jpg

And why do you put a dot between WR and ALDA? It's an underscore, not a dot.

And I do not 'keep doing' anything, I posted about this sentence once or twice while you all have filled pages about it.

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FRÜCHDA = literally: vruchten (fruits) or metaphorically: vreugde(n) (joy(s))

See the several places where it is used in the manuscript.

You should check the Dutch "Etymologiebank" I linked to.

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It's an underscore, not a dot.

Then why do you put a dot between DRAMA-WR-ALDA'S and OD?

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FRÜCHDA = literally: vruchten (fruits) or metaphorically: vreugde(n) (joy(s))

See the several places where it is used in the manuscript.

Yeah, and read this:

. Vercoullie (1925), Beknopt etymologisch woordenboek der Nederlandsche taal

frui = genieten

http://www.etymologiebank.nl/trefwoord/vrucht

You want it to be an old language, then I will treat it like one:

FRÜCHDA << freugde << vreugde << verheudgen.

And then FRÜCHDA as something to enjoy or rejoyce

Joy is the noun (vreugd, vrucht, fruit), and 'to enjoy' en to 'rejoyce' are the verbs.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Then why do you put a dot between DRAMA-WR-ALDA'S and OD?

To make it clear that the sentence ended with WR_ALDA'S.

I copied it from an earlier post. You could also have commented on me using the numbers 1 to 6. They are also not in the original manuscript.

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To make it clear that the sentence ended with WR_ALDA'S.

How do you know it ends after WRALDAS?

A sentence usually ends with a dot.

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How do you know it ends after WRALDAS?

A sentence usually ends with a dot.

Show me where ANY sentence of the OLB really ends with a dot.

It is just left to our interpretation where a sentence in the OLB ends.

To be perfectly clear: I do not know, I interpret, just like you do.

I gave my interpretation, you gave yours.

I also did not say you must be wrong with yours, I just gave mine.

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To be perfectly clear: I do not know, I interpret, just like you do.

No, I take the text seriously and put the dots exactly where the manuscript puts them.

The copyist has made errors sometimes, but there's no reason to assume he made one here.

You copy Ottema's error.

This is why I would NEVER work together with you, making a new transliteration.

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No, I take the text seriously and put the dots exactly where the manuscript puts them.

The copyist has made errors sometimes, but there's no reason to assume he made one here.

You copy Ottema's error.

This is why I would NEVER work together with you, making a new transliteration.

Show me those dots (they are UNDERSCORES, NOT DOTS); this is your screenshot:

wraldasoddots.jpg

Btw, I already know it is best we all work apart.

Knul and I never agree, you and I never agree, and so on.

This is an underscore _ and this is a dot .

.

Edited by Abramelin

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This is an underscore _ and this is a dot .

Why don't you simply admit that you used an erroneous transliteration?

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Here's all fragments with WRALDAS, WRALDA.S or WR.ALDA.S; Wralda-his.

(I have not checked all transliterations this time.)

As you can see there are only four examples were WRALDAS is placed AFTER the word that it belongs to, as it more usually (21 times, "WRALDAS OD" not included) is placed before the word, just like in modern English, Dutch and Frysk.

Also note that in none of the four examples an underscore is used between the word and WRALDAS.

Normal use: WRALDAS before the word; 21 times

THJUS ÁGATH WRALDA.S GÁST

THESSA NIGUNG HÀVATH WI TRVCH WR.ALDA.S GÁST

ÉWA IS ÁK THET ÔRA SINNA.BYLD FON WR.ALDA.S GÁST

NÉI THA SIN THÉR WR.ALDA.S GÁST

FON WR.ALDA.S GÁST NÉTON HJA NAWET

THAT NIMMAN GOD JEFTA FVLKVMA WÉSA NE KVNDE THÀN WR.ALDA.S. GÁST

THET HJARA GÁST THET BESTE DÉL IS FON WR.ALDA.S GÁST

WÉRE HJARA GÁST WR.ALDA.S GÁST SÁ SKOLDE WR.ALDA ÉL DVM WÉSA

WY FRYA.S BERN SEND FORSKINSLA THRVCH WR.ALDA.S LÉVA

VMBE SÉJEN TO WINNANDE FON WR.ALDA.S.GÁST

BÉVADE JRTHA LÎK WR.ALDAS SÉ

WR.ALDAS GÁST MÉI MÀN ALLÉNA KNIBUWGJANDE TÁNK TOWÍA

THÀT IS WRALDAS GÁST

THRVCH WR.ALDAS SÉ BISLOTEN

THAT.I FRYA ÀND WR.ALDAS GÁST MIS.KÀNA ÀND SPOTA THVRADE

THÀT AIDER SKEPSLE EN DÉL IS FON WR.ALDAS VNENDLIK WÉSA

THRVCH UT WR.ALDAS LÉVA

EN DÉL FON WRALDAS VNENDELIK WÉSA

THINGA THAM THRVCH WR.ALDAS LÉVA FORSKINA

VSA GÁST NIS NAVT WR.ALDAS GÁST

AK LIKTET NÉI WR.ALDA.S HÉI

- - - - - -

Variety: WRALDAS after the word; 4 times

AN THA NÔME WRALDAS

IK BEN THET BESTE DÉL WR.ALDAS

HROP THÀN THI GÁST WR.ALDAS AN

THÀT IS THÀT FORMA SINNE BILD WR.ALDA.S

Edited by Otharus

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The 3 mothers started having 'fruits' and 'nuts' in their dreams (not Wralda's), before they became pregnant.

Don't fruits and nuts have everything to do with fertility and procreation?

Aboriginals would perfectly understand this concept, wouldn't they, Puzzler?

A seed dreams of becoming a plant or tree, etc.

Reality follows after dreamtime.

Good dreams lead to good deeds.

Edited by Otharus

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Why don't you simply admit that you used an erroneous transliteration?

Heh, did you even READ my translation?

I created my own.

I didn't use anyone else's.

Well, check what I made of it and you will realize you will find it nowhere else.

Look, Otharus, somehow you appear to be p***ed off by my translation for god knows what reason.

All I did was offer - in a post to Puzz - my own version.

Let's agree to disagree, ok?

You cannot be a 100 % sure you are right, and I cannot be a 100 % I am right.

People can judge for themselves which one of ours - or another one - they prefer.

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The 3 mothers started having 'fruits' and 'nuts' in their dreams (not Wralda's), before they became pregnant.

Don't fruits and nuts have everything to do with fertility and procreation?

Aboriginals would perfectly understand this concept, wouldn't they, Puzzler?

A seed dreams of becoming a plant or tree, etc.

Reality follows after dreamtime.

Good dreams lead to good deeds.

Vruchten en genoegens is a biblical expression. s. http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/nederlandse/huntington-verlies-1.pdf.

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You:

"THÀT IS THÀT FORMA SINNE BILD WR.ALDA.S"

For anyone with eyes, that sentence ends with "Wr.alda.s"

That is the way people from ages ago spoke, Otharus.

And the sentence ends the same as the one we have been discussing for pages now:

"Ring as hja rip wêron krêjon hja früchda aend nochta anda drâma Wr.aldas"

.

Edited by Abramelin

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