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Riaan

[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood

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Ne hlap navt to hastich hwand hyr lêid Adela

Dutch:

Nie loop niet (= double negative) te haastig want hier leit Adela.

English:

Don't walk too hastily for here lies Adela.

.

Cool, yes, I answered my own question afew posts later with this:

I get it:

hlâp-a 22, afries., st. V. (7)=red. V.: nhd. laufen, gehen, rinnen, treten; ne. run

(V.), go (V.), step

hõ-st-a 1 und häufiger?, afries., sw. V. (1): nhd. hasten, eilen; ne. hurry (V.); E.: s.

hâ-st (1); L.: Hh 40a

hõ-st-e 4, hõ-st (2), afries., Adj.: nhd. gewaltsam; ne. forcible; Hw.: vgl. ae. hÚst

(2), ahd. heisti*, mnd. heysten; Q.: H, W, Jur; E.: germ. *haifsta-, *haifstaz, Adj.,

heftig; s. idg. *¨Ðibh-, Adj., schnell, heftig, Pokorny 542; L.: Hh 40a

hõ-st-ich 1, afries., Adj.: nhd. gewaltsam; ne. forcible; Hw.: vgl. mnd. haestigen;

Q.: Jur; E.: s. hõ-st-e, *ich; W.: saterl. hastich, Adj., gewaltsam; L.: Hh 40a, Rh

797b

hwa-n-d-e 35 und häufiger?, hwa-n-d-a, hwe-n-d-a, hwa-n-t-e, hwe-n-t-e, hwa-n-t,

hwe-n-t, afries., Konj.: nhd. denn, weil, da; ne. because, as;

Ne hlap navt to hastich hwand hyr lêid Adela.

TREAD SOFTLY, FOR HERE LIES ADELA

Never run nor hurry as here lies Adela

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

If I combine yours and mine, I think a close one is:

Never step too hasty as here lies Adela.

I like to keep as close as I can to the Frisian words, so I am using them accordingly such as Never for Ne even though Don't would fit certainly.

Edited by The Puzzler

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Letter from Cornelis Over de Linden to Dr. Ottema, dated 8-11-1871 (translated).

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Den Helder, 8 November 1871

Dear and erudite sir,

I am pleased that we have come to an agreement.

When nothing is in the way, one can think more clearly. Therefore I will once more point at my earlier comments.

You would prefer to translate 'poppenkoningen' into 'papenkings' ['paap' is an invection for catholics]. Here in Westfriesland strangers are called 'pop', terms like 'poppe-horses' and '-pigs' are known too.

Thus you would not risk a mistake if you would use 'strange kings' for 'poppa koningen'. You say: "In Apolonnia's book, the 'Formleer' is the purest representation of Godness, that most agrees with the Christian view. More sublime than Jehova from the old Testament, who goes for a walk in the garden of Eden in the morning, to have a chat with Adam.

If you want to prevent that many people will put the book aside, prejudiced at first sight, you should - according to my modest mind - avoid things that can upset people. One catches more flies with syrup than with vinegar.

[...]

When children need to swallow a bitter medicine, to free them of worms that hinder their growth, we don't say: "swallow this, stupid, because it's for your own good"; but we comfort them with sweet words and candy.

That's how scholars who want to elevate the people should act, rather than inveigh them with terms like grey, donkeys, etc.

You want to replace the word 'od' with 'animosity'. On page 128 I find FIAND for enemy. I would rather see you use 'fertilising force' - or a more appropriate term. The word animosity will cause animosity. [Ottema would later change 'animosity' in 'hatred'.] When one speaks to youths about love, they will fall in love. But when one speaks to them of war, they will seperate in groups and play soldier, to the great pleasure of despotism.

[...]

Having nothing else bothering me, I great you friendly, and am respectfully at your service,

C. Over de Linden.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

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Otharus, why do you think CodL would try to correct Ottema on the latter translating the word OD into 'animosity'?

I mean to say: CodL resepcted Ottema and his erudition. He could instead have asked something like, "Are you sure OD means 'animosity'?

The sentence you translated almost makes it look like CodL knew better then Ottema.

And "fertilizing force" is not just another, nicer, more positive, or better sounding expression for the word "animosity", it means something totally different.

++++

EDIT:

The next is only a reminder of what has been posted before:

The Odic force (also called Od [õd], Odyle, Önd, Odes, Odylic, Odyllic, or Odems) is the name given in the mid-19th century to a hypothetical vital energy or life force by Baron Carl von Reichenbach. Von Reichenbach coined the name from that of the Norse god Odin in 1845.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odic_force

Odin.

His name is related to ōðr, meaning "fury, excitation," besides "mind," or "poetry."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odin

Based on what I think - that CodL was one of the co-creators of the OLB - I'd say that CodL was the one who entered that word, OD, into the OLB using what he had read, and was now amazed an erudite person like Ottema translated it into 'animosity'. Like in "Hey, that was not what I meant!"

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Cool, yes, I answered my own question afew posts later with this:

I get it:

hlâp-a 22, afries., st. V. (7)=red. V.: nhd. laufen, gehen, rinnen, treten; ne. run

(V.), go (V.), step

hõ-st-a 1 und häufiger?, afries., sw. V. (1): nhd. hasten, eilen; ne. hurry (V.); E.: s.

hâ-st (1); L.: Hh 40a

hõ-st-e 4, hõ-st (2), afries., Adj.: nhd. gewaltsam; ne. forcible; Hw.: vgl. ae. hÚst

(2), ahd. heisti*, mnd. heysten; Q.: H, W, Jur; E.: germ. *haifsta-, *haifstaz, Adj.,

heftig; s. idg. *¨Ðibh-, Adj., schnell, heftig, Pokorny 542; L.: Hh 40a

hõ-st-ich 1, afries., Adj.: nhd. gewaltsam; ne. forcible; Hw.: vgl. mnd. haestigen;

Q.: Jur; E.: s. hõ-st-e, *ich; W.: saterl. hastich, Adj., gewaltsam; L.: Hh 40a, Rh

797b

hwa-n-d-e 35 und häufiger?, hwa-n-d-a, hwe-n-d-a, hwa-n-t-e, hwe-n-t-e, hwa-n-t,

hwe-n-t, afries., Konj.: nhd. denn, weil, da; ne. because, as;

Ne hlap navt to hastich hwand hyr lêid Adela.

TREAD SOFTLY, FOR HERE LIES ADELA

Never run nor hurry as here lies Adela

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

If I combine yours and mine, I think a close one is:

Never step too hasty as here lies Adela.

I like to keep as close as I can to the Frisian words, so I am using them accordingly such as Never for Ne even though Don't would fit certainly.

What's wrong with the English translation by Sandbach ? You make a mess of your translation.

Edited by Knul

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Otharus, why do you think CodL would try to correct Ottema on the latter translating the word OD into 'animosity'?

I mean to say: CodL resepcted Ottema and his erudition. He could instead have asked something like, "Are you sure OD means 'animosity'?

The sentence you translated almost makes it look like CodL knew better then Ottema.

And "fertilizing force" is not just another, nicer, more positive, or better sounding expression for the word "animosity", it means something totally different.

++++

EDIT:

The next is only a reminder of what has been posted before:

The Odic force (also called Od [õd], Odyle, Önd, Odes, Odylic, Odyllic, or Odems) is the name given in the mid-19th century to a hypothetical vital energy or life force by Baron Carl von Reichenbach. Von Reichenbach coined the name from that of the Norse god Odin in 1845.

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Odic_force

Odin.

His name is related to ōðr, meaning "fury, excitation," besides "mind," or "poetry."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odin

Based on what I think - that CodL was one of the co-creators of the OLB - I'd say that CodL was the one who entered that word, OD, into the OLB using what he had read, and was now amazed an erudite person like Ottema translated it into 'animosity'. Like in "Hey, that was not what I meant!"

.

It only shows that Cornelis over de Linden overestimated himself like he did in a letter to the Province of Friesland.

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What's wrong with the English translation by Sandbach ? You make a mess of your translation.

Well, Puzz's translation is more of a poetic interpretation.

But I agree we should refrain from doing that and stay as close as possible to the original text.

My translation:

"Don't walk too hastily for here lies Adela."

Sandbach's:

"Tread softly, for here lies Adela.""

Sandbach's translation is also a poetic interpretation, and not close to the original text.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Maybe avatars?

When they [be]came blue, Wr-alda ate her/them with his breath.

When Frya was born, our mother stood naked and blue, unprotected from the rays of the sun.

:D

It must have been cold ! Or Frya was a smurf.

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It only shows that Cornelis over de Linden overestimated himself like he did in a letter to the Province of Friesland.

Yeah. To me it's like I, as the amateur I am, would correct a Rolf Bremmer : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolf_Bremmer

I would only contradict such a professor/learned man if I was a 100 % sure he was wrong.

And how could I be a 100% sure he was wrong? Because I knew where the word really came from.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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What's wrong with the English translation by Sandbach ? You make a mess of your translation.

Why?

It's the exact same words in Frisian as the OLB has, if that's a messed up translation....

Mine is not poetic either Abe, it does not use any words that are not the same as the Frisian dictionary, yours is poetic if anyone's is, because you have come out of the OLB Frisian to get 'don't walk' when it is really 'never run/step'.

I stayed EXACTLY to the original text Abe, what else do you want?

NE=NEVER

HLAP=RUN,STEP

The only one changing it into a more poetic version is YOU.

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What's wrong with the English translation by Sandbach ? You make a mess of your translation.

What's wrong with it?

It's not what the Fryan words say, if they translate into Frisian. Like Abe said, it's too poetic.

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Why?

It's the exact same words in Frisian as the OLB has, if that's a messed up translation....

Mine is not poetic either Abe, it does not use any words that are not the same as the Frisian dictionary, yours is poetic if anyone's is, because you have come out of the OLB Frisian to get 'don't walk' when it is really 'never run/step'.

I stayed EXACTLY to the original text Abe, what else do you want?

NE=NEVER

HLAP=RUN,STEP

The only one changing it into a more poetic version is YOU.

No Puzz, 'hlapa' should not be translated with 'run' but with 'lopen'. And 'lopen' = to walk.

Oh, and you did not stay EXACTLY to the original text. You added words and changed the composition of the sentence.

I must add that the etymology of "hlapa" is about running, true.

But it's obvious that the translation of "hlapa" is simply the Dutch for 'to walk': lopen.

And why add "hastily"? Running can be seen as walking hastily, right?

If "hlapa" meant 'to run' in this sentence there would have been no need to add "hastily" (hastich/haastig).

+++++

Ne hlap navt to hastich hwand hyr lêid Adela

Dutch (=almost exactly the same):

Nie loop niet (= double negative) te haastig want hier leit Adela.

English:

Don't walk too hastily for here lies Adela.

++

You also added 'step' for 'hlapa'. That would be better, but why introduce 'step' when we have 'lopen', or 'to walk'?

.

Edited by Abramelin

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No Puzz, 'hlapa' should not be translated with 'run' but with 'lopen'. And 'lopen' = to walk.

Oh, and you did not stay EXACTLY to the original text. You added words and changed the composition of the sentence.

I must add that the etymology of "hlapa" is about running, true.

But it's obvious that the translation of "hlapa" is simply the Dutch for 'to walk': lopen.

And why add "hastily"? Running can be seen as walking hastily, right?

If "hlapa" meant 'to run' in this sentence there would have been no need to add "hastily" (hastich/haastig).

+++++

Ne hlap navt to hastich hwand hyr lêid Adela

Dutch (=almost exactly the same):

Nie loop niet (= double negative) te haastig want hier leit Adela.

English:

Don't walk too hastily for here lies Adela.

++

You also added 'step' for 'hlapa'. That would be better, but why introduce 'step' when we have 'lopen', or 'to walk'?

.

I don't give a toss if hlapa goes to lopen in Dutch which then means to walk, the word means in FRISIAN run/step. You can be told not to STEP hastily, which might be walk but it is not walk, it's step or run according to the Frisian dictionary.

THAT is why mine is more correct and true to the original meaning.

The word is not lopen, the word is hlapa.

Ne is never in Frisian, whatever you want to it to be in Dutch is not correct imo.

But it's obvious that the translation of "hlapa" is simply the Dutch for 'to walk': lopen.

English has a word too, lope, lope along, lope (lp)

intr.v. loped, lop·ing, lopes

To run or ride with a steady, easy gait.

I could stick in this meaning too, it's not OBVIOUS at all that hlapa is simply Dutch for 'to walk' and then place that meaning in. I could say oh, it's obvious it means lope, which it does but changing it to walk is not staying true to the text imo.

That's the whole problem with the translation, it's being taken out of Frisian and replaced with Dutch meaning, or English, it is changing the whole text.

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No Puzz, 'hlapa' should not be translated with 'run' but with 'lopen'. And 'lopen' = to walk.

Oh, and you did not stay EXACTLY to the original text. You added words and changed the composition of the sentence.

I didn't add any words and where exactly is the composition changed?

Ne hlap navt to hastich hwand hyr lêid Adela.

TREAD SOFTLY, FOR HERE LIES ADELA

Never run nor hurry as here lies Adela

---------------

Even closer then would be:

Never run/step not too forceful because/as here layed Adela.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sorry I sound a bit cross, I've had a long day.

Edited by The Puzzler

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not, n-, n-â-we-t 70 und häufiger?, ne 150 und häufiger?

Like I said: the sentence uses a double negative.

Ne hlap navt to hastich hwand hyr lêid Adela.

http://www.koeblergerhard.de/germanistischewoerterbuecher/altfriesischeswoerterbuch/ne-afries.pdf

hlâp-a 22, afries., st. V. (7)=red. V.: nhd. laufen, gehen, rinnen, treten; ne. run

(V.), go (V.), step (V.); Vw.: s. gad-er-, tæ-, up-; Hw.: vgl. got. *hlaupan, an.

hlaupa, ae. hléapan, anfrk. loupan, as. *hlôpan?, ahd. loufan; Q.: E, H, F, R, W,

S; E.: germ. *hlaupan, st. V., laufen; idg. *køelp- (1), *køelb-, *kø¢p-, *kø¢b-,

*klup-, *klub-, V., stolpern, traben, Pokorny 630?; W.: nfries. ljeappen, V., laufen;

W.: saterl. lopa, V., laufen; L.: Hh 44b, Rh 818a

http://www.koeblergerhard.de/germanistischewoerterbuecher/altfriesischeswoerterbuch/afries-H.pdf

In case you don't know: Saterlands is a Frisian dialect.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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I didn't add any words and where exactly is the composition changed?

Ne hlap navt to hastich hwand hyr lêid Adela.

TREAD SOFTLY, FOR HERE LIES ADELA

Never run nor hurry as here lies Adela

---------------

Even closer then would be:

Never run/step not too forceful because/as here layed Adela.

You introduce "hurry" when "hasty" or "hastily" would be much closer to the original.

You introduce 'never' but 'ne - navt' is nothing but a double negative.

never, n-â (1) 4, n-â-m-mê-r 2

http://www.koeblergerhard.de/germanistischewoerterbuecher/altfriesischeswoerterbuch/ne-afries.pdf

And 'forceful'??

.

Edited by Abramelin

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You introduce "hurry" when "hasty" or "hastily" would be much closer to the original.

You introduce 'never' but 'ne - navt' is nothing but a double negative.

never, n-â (1) 4, n-â-m-mê-r 2

http://www.koeblergerhard.de/germanistischewoerterbuecher/altfriesischeswoerterbuch/ne-afries.pdf

And 'forceful'??

.

1. Because I used haste first, it translated into Frisian to: hõ-st-a 1 und häufiger?, afries., sw. V. (1): nhd. hasten, eilen; ne. hurry (V.); E.: s.

hâ-st (1); L.: Hh 40a

I chose hurry but yes hasten would have been fine, IF the OLB word was HASTA, which it is NOT.

OK, I meant 'forcible' (not forceful) because the word is HASTICH in the OLB.

hõ-st-ich 1, afries., Adj.: nhd. gewaltsam; ne. forcible; Hw.: vgl. mnd. haestigen;

Q.: Jur; E.: s. hõ-st-e, *ich; W.: saterl. hastich, Adj., gewaltsam; L.: Hh 40a, Rh

797b

Hastich is not hasty, it's forcible.

2.Never equates to the first word: NE

navt/naut is a word.

NAUT in the Frisian Dictionary takes you to:

n-â-we-t 70 und häufiger?, n-ô-we-t, n-â-u-t, n-â-t (3), afries., Pron., Adv.: nhd.

nichts, nicht; ne. nothing, not;

nothing, not.

Never step not forcibly - makes sense, double negative or not, you might forget how close Frisian is to English. "Never go not far" = never go far away

Edited by The Puzzler

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not, n-, n-â-we-t 70 und häufiger?, ne 150 und häufiger?

Like I said: the sentence uses a double negative.

Ne hlap navt to hastich hwand hyr lêid Adela.

http://www.koeblergerhard.de/germanistischewoerterbuecher/altfriesischeswoerterbuch/ne-afries.pdf

hlâp-a 22, afries., st. V. (7)=red. V.: nhd. laufen, gehen, rinnen, treten; ne. run

(V.), go (V.), step (V.); Vw.: s. gad-er-, tæ-, up-; Hw.: vgl. got. *hlaupan, an.

hlaupa, ae. hléapan, anfrk. loupan, as. *hlôpan?, ahd. loufan; Q.: E, H, F, R, W,

S; E.: germ. *hlaupan, st. V., laufen; idg. *køelp- (1), *køelb-, *kø¢p-, *kø¢b-,

*klup-, *klub-, V., stolpern, traben, Pokorny 630?; W.: nfries. ljeappen, V., laufen;

W.: saterl. lopa, V., laufen; L.: Hh 44b, Rh 818a

http://www.koeblergerhard.de/germanistischewoerterbuecher/altfriesischeswoerterbuch/afries-H.pdf

In case you don't know: Saterlands is a Frisian dialect.

.

I do know that.

WHat's it matter if lopa is there, we know it's a word that is related to lopa and lopen and lope, but the word is HLAPA, that is not lopen or lope. Like I said I can easily slip in "To run or ride with a steady, easy gait" where hlapa is because that's what lopa/lope means, just like lopen means walk to you but that is not the word and Dutch NOR English is the language of the OLB.

And that is my whole point.

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Double negative or not? But it is, and that is why I use it in my translation.

And the double negative is formed by two Old Frisian words meaning NOT: NE and NEWET/NEVT.

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Double negative or not? But it is, and that is why I use it in my translation.

And the double negative is formed by two Old Frisian words meaning NOT: NE and NEWET/NEVT.

I just gave an example where I said it sounds right anyway.

I'm using never and not anyway so what's the problem.

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I just gave an example where I said it sounds right anyway.

I'm using never and not anyway so what's the problem.

The problem is your translation is wrong in a literal sense, not that it is wrong explaining what the sentence is all about.

Anyway, about that word "HASTICH":

You say I can't use Dutch, but then you should read this:

http://gtb.inl.nl/iWDB/search?actie=article&wdb=VMNW&id=ID48292

It's almost the same word - HAESTICH - , and meaning hasty, premature, fast acting, thoughtless; quick, sudden.

And one of the alternative spellings is HASTICH.

Coincidence??

.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Well, Puzz's translation is more of a poetic interpretation.

But I agree we should refrain from doing that and stay as close as possible to the original text.

My translation:

"Don't walk too hastily for here lies Adela."

Sandbach's:

"Tread softly, for here lies Adela.""

Sandbach's translation is also a poetic interpretation, and not close to the original text.

.

The double negation does not pertain to hlapa = lopen (Eng. walk), but to hastich = gehaast (hastily). Sandbach understood, that the visitor should hold his speed while passing the grave of Adela. A nice translation would be hold your steps or slow down your steps, but I like Sandbach's translation too. Puzz's interpretation ne = never is simply wrong and gives quite a different meaning to the sentence.

Edited by Knul

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2.Never equates to the first word: NE

navt/naut is a word.

NAUT in the Frisian Dictionary takes you to:

n-â-we-t 70 und häufiger?, n-ô-we-t, n-â-u-t, n-â-t (3), afries., Pron., Adv.: nhd.

nichts, nicht; ne. nothing, not;

nothing, not.

n-â (1) 4, n-ô, afries., Adv.: nhd. nie, nein; ne. never, no (Interj.)

ne 150 und häufiger?, ni, en (3), afries., Adv.: nhd. nicht, noch, denn; ne. not, yet

http://www.koeblergerhard.de/germanistischewoerterbuecher/altfriesischeswoerterbuch/afries-N.pdf

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The double negation does not pertain to hlapa = lopen (Eng. walk), but to hastich = gehaast (hastily). Sandbach understood, that the visitor should hold his speed while passing the grave of Adela. A nice translation would be hold your steps or slow down your steps, but I like Sandbach's translation too.

It's not about liking this or that, it is about staying as close to the original text using words with the same meaning that are closest in spelling to those used in the original text.

Well, that is what I prefer above a 'poetic' interpretation.

+++

And yes, ofcourse we know that the double negation pertains "HASTICH", not "HLAPA".

.

Edited by Abramelin

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The problem is your translation is wrong in a literal sense, not that it is wrong explaining what the sentence is all about.

Anyway, about that word "HASTICH":

You say I can't use Dutch, but then you should read this:

http://gtb.inl.nl/iWDB/search?actie=article&wdb=VMNW&id=ID48292

It's almost the same word - HAESTICH - , and meaning hasty, premature, fast acting, thoughtless; quick, sudden.

.

I just say, these words would be related for sure but should not be used if their is a suitable Frisian word. It depends I guess on what you want your translation to be like. Mine will be literally straight as it says and imo have been readable exactly as it is written. How I speak is how I write in English, the OLB imo will be the same, none of this fancy shmancy sentence constructions.

If I wrote 'Never step nor too forcibly' which is exactly how the words are, what makes this wrong 'in a literal sense'?

Absolutely nothing, just because this is not how you might speak now.

Never step - nor be too forcible is a better way to say it but again that is not how the text is written.

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Otharus, why do you think CodL would try to correct Ottema on the latter translating the word OD into 'animosity'?

Because 'animosity' in that fragment does not make sense.

I mean to say: CodL resepcted Ottema and his erudition. He could instead have asked something like, "Are you sure OD means 'animosity'?

COdL respected Ottema, but didn't think the erudite doctor was omniscient.

Ottema had had a better education and social status than OdL, but he was less intelligent.

The sentence you translated almost makes it look like CodL knew better then Ottema.

In this case, he did indeed.

He had put a big effort in educating himself.

And "fertilizing force" is not just another, nicer, more positive, or better sounding expression for the word "animosity", it means something totally different.

Yes, Cornelis was not prejudiced by the Latin meaning.

He may have read or heard about the Saxon or Nordic meaning, or just used his common sense.

Based on what I think - that CodL was one of the co-creators of the OLB - I'd say that CodL was the one who entered that word, OD, into the OLB using what he had read, and was now amazed an erudite person like Ottema translated it into 'animosity'. Like in "Hey, that was not what I meant!"

In that case he would also have mentioned the misplacing of the point between WRALDAS and OD.

He could not imagine that his ancestors would tell their children that life had originated out of animosity or hatred, which is a sick idea anyway.

He simply had an obvious interest in having the manuscripty of his ancestors translated as good as possible.

Your ideas about COdL are based on your ignorance about him. You should read his letters and diaries if you are serious about your theory.

Edited by Otharus

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