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Riaan

[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood

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What we need to do is find some haplo group that is specific for NW Europe of around 4000 BP, and then try to see if skeletons of the same age from the Punjab turn up with this same haplo group.

And only in the Punjab or the area nearby.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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What we need to do is find some haplo group that is specific for NW Europe of around 4000 BP, and then try to see if skeletons of the same age from the Punjab turn up with this same haplo group.

And only in the Punjab or the area nearby.

.

I think someone's going to be severely disappointed in trying to make that connection. As the relevant haplogroups of Northwestern Europe, to include Denmark, would be the following:

I1: c.2000 - 4000 BC

I2b-M436: c.7300 BC

I2b1a-M284: c.1870 BC

R1b1a2a1a1b4/R-L21: c.6514 +/- 1911 BC

mtDNA U: c.13,400 BP

mtDNA U5 and immediate subgroups: From c.7200 - 1500 BC

While the relevant groups of India would be:

F: from c.60,000 BP

H: from c.30,000 - 40,000 BP

L: from c.25,000 - 30,000 BP

C*, C5 and L1: currently undated

mtDNA M: c.60,600 BP

mtDNA R: c.66,600 BP

cormac

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I think someone's going to be severely disappointed in trying to make that connection. As the relevant haplogroups of Northwestern Europe, to include Denmark, would be the following:

I1: c.2000 - 4000 BC

I2b-M436: c.7300 BC

I2b1a-M284: c.1870 BC

R1b1a2a1a1b4/R-L21: c.6514 +/- 1911 BC

mtDNA U: c.13,400 BP

mtDNA U5 and immediate subgroups: From c.7200 - 1500 BC

While the relevant groups of India would be:

F: from c.60,000 BP

H: from c.30,000 - 40,000 BP

L: from c.25,000 - 30,000 BP

C*, C5 and L1: currently undated

mtDNA M: c.60,600 BP

mtDNA R: c.66,600 BP

cormac

Thanks Cormac,

But you have an -H- haplo group in your list, and this is what I posted before:

A study published by Yuval Itan and colleagues in 2010 [4] clearly shows this. A study published in 2009, also by Itan et al.,[5] suggests that the Linear Pottery culture (also known as Linearbandkeramik or LBK), which preceded the TRB culture by some 1,500 years, was the culture in which this trait started to co-evolve with the culture of dairying. Ancient DNA extracted from three individuals ascribed to a TRB horizon in Gökhem, Sweden, were found to possess mtDNA haplogroups H, J, and T.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Funnelbeaker_culture#Ethnicity_and_language

The -H- haplo group appears to show up in much more recent times.

And please excuse me: reading about genetics is like studying some ancient Chinese dialect to me, lol.

I do not want to pretend I understand it, because I just don't.

But tell me: should we try to track down a Punjab -H- haplo group??

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Thanks Cormac,

But you have an -H- haplo group in your list, and this is what I posted before:

A study published by Yuval Itan and colleagues in 2010 [4] clearly shows this. A study published in 2009, also by Itan et al.,[5] suggests that the Linear Pottery culture (also known as Linearbandkeramik or LBK), which preceded the TRB culture by some 1,500 years, was the culture in which this trait started to co-evolve with the culture of dairying. Ancient DNA extracted from three individuals ascribed to a TRB horizon in Gökhem, Sweden, were found to possess mtDNA haplogroups H, J, and T.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Funnelbeaker_culture#Ethnicity_and_language

The -H- haplo group appears to show up in much more recent times.

And please excuse me: reading about genetics is like studying some ancient Chinese dialect to me, lol.

I do not want to pretend I understand it, because I just don't.

But tell me: should we try to track down a Punjab -H- haplo group??

It would be meaningless Abe as the Haplogroup H found in India is Y Chromosome Haplogroup H and not the mitochondrial H that you posted about.

cormac

Edited by cormac mac airt

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I shouldn't have said anything, lol.

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I shouldn't have said anything, lol.

No, you asked a decent question and it was an honest mistake. However, anyone trying to use genetics to validate the OLB is going to have an easier time threading themselves through the eye of a needle. In short, there is no validation.

cormac

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This is a known hoax and money scam, please don't fall for it! It's exactly the same as the 'Kolbrin Bible' a hoax and a scam. I imagine both of these hoaxes are making a guest appearence to help woo artists fuel the 2012 'apocalypse' hoax. Many of these scam books can be found for sale on 2012 proponent sites, along with many other hoax books inked up by bored frat kids and basement dwelling adult children trying to make a bit of cash by selling fear.

Don't fall for it, and see if you can report people selling it in your country to your trading standards/consumer watchdog agencies.

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No, you asked a decent question and it was an honest mistake. However, anyone trying to use genetics to validate the OLB is going to have an easier time threading themselves through the eye of a needle. In short, there is no validation.

cormac

You don't see anything in this?

G2a3b1a is found uniformy throughout Europe, even in Scandinavia and Russia. More importantly, G2a3b1 is also found in India, especially among the upper castes. The combined presence of G2a3b1 across Europe and India is a very strong argument in favour of an Indo-European origin. The coalescence age of G2a3b1 also matches the time of the Indo-European expansion during the Bronze Age.

http://www.eupedia.c...G2a_Y-DNA.shtml

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You don't see anything in this?

G2a3b1a is found uniformy throughout Europe, even in Scandinavia and Russia. More importantly, G2a3b1 is also found in India, especially among the upper castes. The combined presence of G2a3b1 across Europe and India is a very strong argument in favour of an Indo-European origin. The coalescence age of G2a3b1 also matches the time of the Indo-European expansion during the Bronze Age.

http://www.eupedia.c...G2a_Y-DNA.shtml

G2a3b1 originates about 5000 BP (3000 BC) in the Middle East and therefore IS NOT Western European in origin. So therefore irrelevant to the discussion.

cormac

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G2a3b1 originates about 5000 BP (3000 BC) in the Middle East and therefore IS NOT Western European in origin. So therefore irrelevant to the discussion.

cormac

Why would we need to look for anything that's Western Euro ORIGIN? Who said the Geertmen had to have Western European ORIGINATing dna haplogroup? But I get your point.

I think the haplogroup needs to be in North Western Europe 1800BC but not necessarily originate there - but certainly have some Germanic/North Europe type in it.

If anything I guess, that G2a3b1 haplogroup seems to have spread West, which might indicate the Magyar coming in from the East... not the Geertmen going East (as I first suggested).

Edited by The Puzzler

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This is a known hoax and money scam, please don't fall for it! It's exactly the same as the 'Kolbrin Bible' a hoax and a scam. I imagine both of these hoaxes are making a guest appearence to help woo artists fuel the 2012 'apocalypse' hoax. Many of these scam books can be found for sale on 2012 proponent sites, along with many other hoax books inked up by bored frat kids and basement dwelling adult children trying to make a bit of cash by selling fear.

Don't fall for it, and see if you can report people selling it in your country to your trading standards/consumer watchdog agencies.

OK, thanks for the warning. :tu:

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This is a known hoax and money scam, please don't fall for it! It's exactly the same as the 'Kolbrin Bible' a hoax and a scam. I imagine both of these hoaxes are making a guest appearence to help woo artists fuel the 2012 'apocalypse' hoax. Many of these scam books can be found for sale on 2012 proponent sites, along with many other hoax books inked up by bored frat kids and basement dwelling adult children trying to make a bit of cash by selling fear.

Don't fall for it, and see if you can report people selling it in your country to your trading standards/consumer watchdog agencies.

You have any idea when this book was published?

I should add: the Oera Linda Book, not Alewyn's book that started this thread. And nor the OLB nor Alewyn's book has anything to do with 2012.

.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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And only in the Punjab or the area nearby.

That is no logic.

The OLB mentions a few places where some of the Frya's went, not where they did NOT go.

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Just an interesting fact:

British Library St. Cuthbert Gospel: Manuscript Copy Of The Gospel Of John Sold for $14.3 Million

LONDON -- The British Library has paid 9 million pounds (US$14.3 million) to acquire the St. Cuthbert Gospel, a remarkably well-preserved survivor of seventh-century Britain described by the library as the oldest European book to survive fully intact.

Source: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/17/british-library-st-cuthbert-gospel_n_1430254.html

Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Cuthbert_Gospel

r-ST-CUTHBERT-GOSPEL-large570.jpg

401px-St_Cuthbert_Gospel_-_f.1.jpg

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That is no logic.

The OLB mentions a few places where some of the Frya's went, not where they did NOT go.

But that's where they lived and stayed for ages. So if the story is true, it's the most likely place to look for genetic evidence.

However, Cormac showed it would be useless to even try.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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But that's where they lived and stayed for ages. So if the story is true, it's the most likely place to look for genetic evidence.

Yes it's a good place to look for genetic and cultural (like linguistic) eveidence.

But you said "and only in the Punjab or the area nearby", which is no logic.

Edited by Otharus

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Yes it's a good place to look for genetic and cultural (like linguistic) eveidence.

But you said "and only in the Punjab or the area nearby", which is no logic.

Maybe no logic, but I have a good reason:

Some of the Kalash people in their own traditions claim to be descendants of Alexander the Great's soldiers,[4] however, extensive genetic testing has shown no connection.[5] The Kalash's origins have fascinated anthropologists due to the unusually high frequency of light hair, skin, and eyes (particularly green). Some Pashtuns and Persians have been known to have blond hair or green eyes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalash_people

The Nuristani people's closest relation is to the Kalash people. Furthermore, they have very little genetic relation to neighbouring ethnic groups like Pashtuns and Kashmiris. This is because they have always remained isolated in the mountains which has led them to become a genetically isolated population. [1] It is also speculated that Nurestani people are of different origin altogether assimilated in the region at at some point of time in history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuristani_people#Genetics

Photo of a Nuristani girl:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4d/Girl_in_a_Kabul_orphanage%2C_01-07-2002.jpg

map_of_pakistan.jpg

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Some of the Kalash people in their own traditions claim to be descendants of Alexander the Great's soldiers,[4] however, extensive genetic testing has shown no connection.[5] The Kalash's origins have fascinated anthropologists due to the unusually high frequency of light hair, skin, and eyes (particularly green). Some Pashtuns and Persians have been known to have blond hair or green eyes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalash_people

Interesting, but I am skeptical about the value of genetic testing, as I am skeptical about more of modern scientific methods and theories, specially in the field of medical science.

I finished a medical-scientific (with the emphasis on scientific) education (MSc) at the Free University of Amsterdam in 1996.

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Interesting, but I am skeptical about the value of genetic testing, as I am skeptical about more of modern scientific methods and theories, specially in the field of medical science.

I finished a medical-scientific (with the emphasis on scientific) education (MSc) at the Free University of Amsterdam in 1996.

But would you have said the same when these people would have had genetic links to Northern Europe?

Anyway, they are interesting people:

Their gods, like those of the ancient Greeks, are split up into male and female deities and they claim they once belonged to highly literate culture until their books were burned by barbarian tribes.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080523071115AAIfZhq

But whatever is known about their religion, it doesn't resemble anything described in the OLB:

http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/KalashaReligion.pdf

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Maybe no logic, but I have a good reason:

Some of the Kalash people in their own traditions claim to be descendants of Alexander the Great's soldiers,[4] however, extensive genetic testing has shown no connection.[5] The Kalash's origins have fascinated anthropologists due to the unusually high frequency of light hair, skin, and eyes (particularly green). Some Pashtuns and Persians have been known to have blond hair or green eyes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalash_people

The Nuristani people's closest relation is to the Kalash people. Furthermore, they have very little genetic relation to neighbouring ethnic groups like Pashtuns and Kashmiris. This is because they have always remained isolated in the mountains which has led them to become a genetically isolated population. [1] It is also speculated that Nurestani people are of different origin altogether assimilated in the region at at some point of time in history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuristani_people#Genetics

Probably because they came from Afghanistan in the 2nd century BC.

The Kalash are known as indigenous people of Chitral, and their ancestors migrated to Chitral from Afghanistan in the 2nd century BC.[1] It is thought the Kalash descendants migrated to Afghanistan from a distant place in South Asia, which the Kalash call Tsiyam in their folk songs and epics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalash_people

--------------------------

Some group of R1a could easily have been in the Punjab imo.

R1a has been found in high frequency at both the eastern and western ends of its core range, for example in India and Tajikistan on the one hand, and Poland on the other.

I think you mentioned this part Abe:

The remains of a father and his two sons, from an archaeological site discovered in 2005 near Eulau (in Saxony-Anhalt, Germany) and dated to about 2600 BCE, tested positive for the Y-SNP marker SRY10831.2.[31] The R1a1 clade was thus present in Europe at least 4600 years ago, in association with one site of the widespread Corded Ware culture.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1a_(Y-DNA)

Edited by The Puzzler

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Interesting, but I am skeptical about the value of genetic testing, as I am skeptical about more of modern scientific methods and theories, specially in the field of medical science.

I finished a medical-scientific (with the emphasis on scientific) education (MSc) at the Free University of Amsterdam in 1996.

You're entitled to your skepticism, but neither it nor your education in 1996 invalidates, in any way, what has been learned from the studies of genetics/archaeogenetics since then. It won't go away just because you don't want to believe it.

cormac

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Probably because they came from Afghanistan in the 2nd century BC.

Yes, if you look at the map I posted, you'll see they live near the border of Afghanistan and the Punjab.

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For those interested, you will find here a new transcription of the OLB, directly derived from the original pages of the book in possession of Cornelis over de Linden: http://rodinbook.nl/plattetekstolb.html. In this transcription all changes by Ottema have been eliminated.

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It won't go away just because you don't want to believe it.

It's not my intention to make it disappear, I just don't know enough about it to simply believe it.

Until I know more facts, I will remain skeptical (just like you are skeptical about the OLB, not knowing very much about it).

I'm not a 'religious believer' in science (or anything else), because I know that there can be much disagreement between various researchers, and that the ones who pay for the research, more than often determine its outcome.

That will only have become worse since the nineties.

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It's not my intention to make it disappear, I just don't know enough about it to simply believe it.

Until I know more facts, I will remain skeptical (just like you are skeptical about the OLB, not knowing very much about it).

I'm not a 'religious believer' in science (or anything else), because I know that there can be much disagreement between various researchers, and that the ones who pay for the research, more than often determine its outcome.

That will only have become worse since the nineties.

The difference between us being that while you might be skeptical of something you do not understand (genetics) I don't have to be skeptical of the OLB when many of the alleged "facts" attributed to or otherwise associated with it, within this very thread, are actually NOT as factual as some have presented. At best, this thread is based on a faulty premise and after 742 pages it still remains that way.

cormac

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