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Riaan

[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood

11,638 posts in this topic

I asked you earlier if you meant 'praying room', and you sort of said 'yes' with your 'bidruimte'.

But I still don't agree with your etymology of 'bed' being an abbreviated form of 'bidden', 'beden' or 'bieden'.

That is why I have tried to invite linguists to this thread, but they all seem quite hesitant to partake.

Now it's only people happily playing words.

EDIT:

I must add to explain: you suggested earlier it was Jensma's interpretation ('bedrvm' = bedroom), but actually it was Ottema's interpretation.

So that is why I asked you if you thought Ottema was wrong.

And it's important for many use Ottema's translation the world over (or a translation in english, based on his work).

.

I posted this already but I want to reinterate on it. It can be bedr-rum, it's Nordic.

BEDROOM/BEDRUM: A sleeping place.

O.E. bedd "bed, couch, resting place, garden plot," from P.Gmc. *badjam "sleeping place dug in the ground" (cf. M.Du. bedde, O.N. beðr, O.H.G. betti, Ger. bett, Goth. badi), from PIE base *bhedh- "to dig, pierce" (cf. Hittite beda- "to pierce, prick," Gk. bothyros "pit," L. fossa "ditch," Lith. bedre "to dig," Bret. bez "grave"). Both "sleeping" and "gardening" senses are in O.E. Meaning "bottom of a lake, sea, watercourse" is from 1580s. The verb meaning "to sleep with" is early 14c.

OK, so I'm not even going on the word bedrum being a translation from Latin, I'm going on an original Nordic word, that translated into Frisian as something like 'bedram' or bedrum. This is where I think the whole book is being misinterpreted. Words are being taken from Latin when they seem to actually originate in Old Norse. It's bedr - rum basically in Old Norse, (a sleeping place - space.), imo it's not coming to us through a Latin translation.

O.E. rum "space," from P.Gmc. *ruman (cf. O.N., O.S., O.H.G., Goth. rum, Ger. Raum "space," Du. ruim "hold of a ship, nave"), nouns formed from Gmc. adj. *ruma- "roomy, spacious," perhaps from a PIE base *rew- "wide, open" (cf. Avestan ravah- "space," L. rus "open country," O.Ir. roi, roe "plain field"). Original sense preserved in make room "clear space for oneself" (late 14c.); meaning "chamber, cabin" first recorded early 14c. as a nautical term, and first applied mid-15c. to chambers within houses. The O.E. word for this was cofa, ancestor of cove. The verb meaning "to occupy rooms" (especially with another) as a lodger" is first recorded 1828. Room-service is attested from 1930; room-temperature from 1924. Roomth "sufficient space" (1540) now is obsolete.

http://www.etymonlin...x.php?term=room

The point is, this word does not have to have come in in it's form seen in the OLB from Latin. The word bedrum does not imo mean it makes the manuscript recent.

And no, it is not necessary to find it in another manuscript to prove this word would have existed. The etymology shown in the above clearly has those words there in Northern European languages way before it came around again in a Latin form from the Romans.

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Should make one think, eh? Book printers and ship builders. I didn't post that link to the book printer/print shop out of the blue...

This is about the OLB, a book that talks quite a lot about sailing the seas.

And who would know more about creating an ''ancient manuscript'?

Right.

Yes and no.

Ship builders doesn't suprise me, the whole Oera Linda family had been mentioned throughout the book as being sailors, ship-building is probably a work you would get into being involved in long term sailing in the family, in those days the Dutch were the ship builders, so I don't think being a ship-builder in that area at that time, 1700's after having sailing in your blood for over 1000 years is that odd.

Same with being a book publisher/printer. The whole book mentions about the paper and even opens about why it's on foreign paper. The whole family has written this down for apparently generations prior and know a whole lot about paper and keeping records written, so an interest in books, paper and printing is really not that odd either. The family had been writing for generations.

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I posted this already but I want to reinterate on it. It can be bedr-rum, it's Nordic.

BEDROOM/BEDRUM: A sleeping place.

O.E. bedd "bed, couch, resting place, garden plot," from P.Gmc. *badjam "sleeping place dug in the ground" (cf. M.Du. bedde, O.N. beðr, O.H.G. betti, Ger. bett, Goth. badi), from PIE base *bhedh- "to dig, pierce" (cf. Hittite beda- "to pierce, prick," Gk. bothyros "pit," L. fossa "ditch," Lith. bedre "to dig," Bret. bez "grave"). Both "sleeping" and "gardening" senses are in O.E. Meaning "bottom of a lake, sea, watercourse" is from 1580s. The verb meaning "to sleep with" is early 14c.

OK, so I'm not even going on the word bedrum being a translation from Latin, I'm going on an original Nordic word, that translated into Frisian as something like 'bedram' or bedrum. This is where I think the whole book is being misinterpreted. Words are being taken from Latin when they seem to actually originate in Old Norse. It's bedr - rum basically in Old Norse, (a sleeping place - space.), imo it's not coming to us through a Latin translation.

O.E. rum "space," from P.Gmc. *ruman (cf. O.N., O.S., O.H.G., Goth. rum, Ger. Raum "space," Du. ruim "hold of a ship, nave"), nouns formed from Gmc. adj. *ruma- "roomy, spacious," perhaps from a PIE base *rew- "wide, open" (cf. Avestan ravah- "space," L. rus "open country," O.Ir. roi, roe "plain field"). Original sense preserved in make room "clear space for oneself" (late 14c.); meaning "chamber, cabin" first recorded early 14c. as a nautical term, and first applied mid-15c. to chambers within houses. The O.E. word for this was cofa, ancestor of cove. The verb meaning "to occupy rooms" (especially with another) as a lodger" is first recorded 1828. Room-service is attested from 1930; room-temperature from 1924. Roomth "sufficient space" (1540) now is obsolete.

http://www.etymonlin...x.php?term=room

The point is, this word does not have to have come in in it's form seen in the OLB from Latin. The word bedrum does not imo mean it makes the manuscript recent.

And no, it is not necessary to find it in another manuscript to prove this word would have existed. The etymology shown in the above clearly has those words there in Northern European languages way before it came around again in a Latin form from the Romans.

Yes Puzz, we have been there before, and I also posted the words the Norse, Swedes and Danes actually use for 'bedroom'. And that's nowhere near 'bedrum' or similar spellings.

Like I said to Otharus, a bedroom is a normal part of anything resembling a house, a separate place where you rest/sleep on a bed. So I think it's quite resonable to suggest that if 'bedroom/bedrum' is as old as you think it is, it will show up in other ancient Nordic texts.

It's the combination that counts, not so much the etymology of the nouns it is made up from.

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Yes and no.

Ship builders doesn't suprise me, the whole Oera Linda family had been mentioned throughout the book as being sailors, ship-building is probably a work you would get into being involved in long term sailing in the family, in those days the Dutch were the ship builders, so I don't think being a ship-builder in that area at that time, 1700's after having sailing in your blood for over 1000 years is that odd.

Same with being a book publisher/printer. The whole book mentions about the paper and even opens about why it's on foreign paper. The whole family has written this down for apparently generations prior and know a whole lot about paper and keeping records written, so an interest in books, paper and printing is really not that odd either. The family had been writing for generations.

You forget what I have posted earlier in this thread about this Over de Linden guy, about his life, his frustrations, his obsessions, his interests, and also his contacts with a printer/book-publisher from Germany.

-

EDIT:

LOL, ok, I half forgot myself and tried to find that post but nada.

Only thing to do: read the whole thread again.

But not today, sorry.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Found it.

It's "tore".

Chapter XXXI: This is inscribed in all our burghs -

(...)

Thaes aerge sêke bistonde-r thes nachtis anda winter by storne tydum as wind gûlde aend hêjel to jenst tha andêrna fêtere. Thi utkik thêr mênde thater awet hêrde staek sin balle vp. Tha drêi as et ljucht fon êr tore vppet ronddêl falda, sa-r that al fêlo wêpende manna wra burchwal wêron. Nw gvng-er to vmbe tha klokke to lettane, tha et wêre to lêt. Êr tha wêre rêd wêre, weron al twa thusand ina wêr vmbe tha porte to rammande. Strid hwilde thervmbe kirt,

Yes, I agree with that, the word tore is there in the OLB, Just strained my brain by looking for it in the OLB/Dutch online translation, and it would mean tower.

O.E. torr, from L. turris "high structure" (cf. O.Fr. tor, 11c.; Sp., It. torre "tower"), possibly from a pre-I.E. Mediterranean language.

High structure. Tor, a hill top too.

Edited by The Puzzler

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You forget what I have posted earlier in this thread about this Over de Linden guy, about his life, his frustrations, his obsessions, his interests, and also his contacts with a printer/book-publisher from Germany.

-

EDIT:

LOL, ok, I half forgot myself and tried to find that post but nada.

Only thing to do: read the whole thread again.

But not today, sorry.

.

Nah, I haven't forgotten, it's all in there. :wacko:

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Yes Puzz, we have been there before, and I also posted the words the Norse, Swedes and Danes actually use for 'bedroom'. And that's nowhere near 'bedrum' or similar spellings.

Like I said to Otharus, a bedroom is a normal part of anything resembling a house, a separate place where you rest/sleep on a bed. So I think it's quite resonable to suggest that if 'bedroom/bedrum' is as old as you think it is, it will show up in other ancient Nordic texts.

It's the combination that counts, not so much the etymology of the nouns it is made up from.

bedroom (A Midsummer Night's Dream, merely means a place to sleep on the ground)

http://www.pathguy.com/shakeswo.htm

Bedroom does not even have to be made up of two words. badjam would eventually get there as one word, just as Shakespeare has probably himself, not used Latin but p>germanic, since the meaning for his word is a place to sleep ON THE GROUND, which goes back to badjam. It's not even in a room.

O.E. bedd "bed, couch, resting place, garden plot," from P.Gmc. *badjam "sleeping place dug in the ground"

It doesn't have to be made up of anything actually, other than itself.

Edited by The Puzzler

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Nah, I haven't forgotten, it's all in there. :wacko:

Jeesh, ok, but I did find it and I will post it again:

From post 1006, page 68 / post 423, page 29:

This empire stretched out over all of Europe, and we only find the script in some tiny Friesland village, by a guy (Cornelis Over de Linden) who fiercely hated religion, fanatically studied philosophy, geography, freemasonry, was a freethinker, raged against religion and science, came in contact with a Saxon bookbinder Ernst Stadermann who knew a lot about ancient books and spoke many languages, absolutely adored his Frisian heritage, studied ancient Frisian laws, .. AND was a ship builder -and designer (in case you wonder why there is so much about sailing the seas in the OLB).

And why all that stuff about 'burgmaagden' (dominant female rulers who dictated what to believe and whatnot)? He hated his mother and her religious fanatism (she was an 'ultra-Calvinist; his father didn't care about religion at all)

http://www.humanitarisme.nl/personen/index.php?m=family&id=I40726

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bedroom (A Midsummer Night's Dream, merely means a place to sleep on the ground)

http://www.pathguy.com/shakeswo.htm

Bedroom does not even have to be made up of two words. badjam would eventually get there as one word, just as Shakespeare has probably himself, not used Latin but p>germanic, since the meaning for his word is a place to sleep ON THE GROUND, which goes back to badjam. It's not even in a room.

O.E. bedd "bed, couch, resting place, garden plot," from P.Gmc. *badjam "sleeping place dug in the ground"

It doesn't have to be made up of anything actually, other than itself.

Well, your link to Shakespear's play (written near the end of the 16th century) sort of proves what I posted before:

bedroom

1610s, from bed + room. Replaced earlier bedchamber.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=bedroom&searchmode=none

And uhm... I meant a Nordic source, like Scandinavian, and from the 13th century or earlier.

"Bedroom does not even have to be made up of two words. badjam would eventually get there as one word"

So you are suggesting that a word like 'bedjam' changed into 'bedrum'?? Eventually????

"It doesn't have to be made up of anything actually, other than itself."

Well, I think you are wrong, and that it's made up of 2 words.

Did I say we need a linguist here? I think I did...

EDIT:

All this talk about bedrooms doesn't make an insomniac like me very happy.. <_<

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Wagrum is tricky but there is a Wagrum in Austria. :sleepy:

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Wagrum is tricky but there is a Wagrum in Austria. :sleepy:

And what is it doing there??

:w00t:

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So you are suggesting that a word like 'bedjam' changed into 'bedrum'?? Eventually????

Yes.

BED: Originating from the Proto-Germanic "bedjam," meaning "sleeping place dug in the ground,"

http://qualitycheapfurniture.blogspot.com/

The word shouldn't even be translated as bed room, the word bedjam really just means sleeping place. It's not bedjam rum. The English word in the OLB really should just translate to bed or sleeping place.

Speaking of bed, that is where I'm headed right now....

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It reminded me of another word to do with bed...pyJAMas. You can bet your booties this word would derive from Proto-Germanic jam in bedJAM. Now, really, I'm off to put my pyjamas on...

ie: earthen cot.

Edited by The Puzzler

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Yes.

BED: Originating from the Proto-Germanic "bedjam," meaning "sleeping place dug in the ground,"

http://qualitycheapfurniture.blogspot.com/

The word shouldn't even be translated as bed room, the word bedjam really just means sleeping place. It's not bedjam rum. The English word in the OLB really should just translate to bed or sleeping place.

Speaking of bed, that is where I'm headed right now....

Yes Puzz, I think I know by now where the word 'bed' came from.

But I still think it's impossible 'bedjam' evolved into 'bedrum', and then also meaning nothing but bed.

Sweet dreams.

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It reminded me of another word to do with bed...pyJAMas. You can bet your booties this word would derive from Proto-Germanic jam in bedJAM. Now, really, I'm off to put my pyjamas on...

ie: earthen cot.

"The word "pajama" was incorporated into the English language from Persian. The word originally derives from the Persian word پايجامه Payjama meaning "leg garment."

Yeah, you better go sleep now.

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"The word "pajama" was incorporated into the English language from Persian. The word originally derives from the Persian word پايجامه Payjama meaning "leg garment."

Yeah, you better go sleep now.

OK, incorporated into the English language doesn't mean it is where the word actually derived from.

Maybe I got it wrong or maybe Persian is derived from IE, which it is, like German.

Indo-European languages are spoken by almost three billion native speakers,[2] the largest number for any recognised language family. Of the top 20 contemporary languages in terms of native speakers according to SIL Ethnologue, twelve are Indo-European: Spanish, English, Hindi, Portuguese, Bengali, Russian, German, Marathi, French, Italian, Punjabi, and Urdu

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages

The word "pyjama" is a variant of "pajama" (पजामा/پاجامہ) which was incorporated into the English language during British Raj from Hindustani (the progenitor language of modern-day Urdu and Hindi).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pajamas

But I am sticking with bedjam for bedrum meaning earthen cot, sleeping place.

Tomorrow. B)

Edited by The Puzzler

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OK, incorporated into the English language doesn't mean it is where the word actually derived from.

Maybe I got it wrong or maybe Persian is derived from IE, which it is, like German.

Indo-European languages are spoken by almost three billion native speakers,[2] the largest number for any recognised language family. Of the top 20 contemporary languages in terms of native speakers according to SIL Ethnologue, twelve are Indo-European: Spanish, English, Hindi, Portuguese, Bengali, Russian, German, Marathi, French, Italian, Punjabi, and Urdu

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages

The word "pyjama" is a variant of "pajama" (पजामा/پاجامہ) which was incorporated into the English language during British Raj from Hindustani (the progenitor language of modern-day Urdu and Hindi).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pajamas

But I am sticking with bedjam for bedrum meaning earthen cot, sleeping place.

Tomorrow. B)

Apples and oranges are both round, but they taste different, they grow on very diferent trees, their color is different, they grow in different climates...

Payama/pajama/pyjama is an Indo/Iranian word having to do with pants, and has nothing to do with anything about sleeping. Yes, we westerners use it now when we go to bed (not me, btw, I hate these things).

You know what a 'yam' is? Well, if you don't, it's some kind of tropical root you can eat. Now suppose that yam makes us feel sleepy (full stomach makes one relexed because of the serotonin released after the intake of lots of starch). But you would therefore think that this word 'yam', this root, has linguistic connections with your bedjam...

The English 'sun' and 'son' sound very similar in my Dutch ears, and you won't believe how many times I have to edit my posts just because of that similarity.

But you won't hear me say that because of their similarity they must have the same etymological origin.

The one and only reason you start about this is because pyjama sounds similar to bedjam.

This is not serious, it's nothing but a play with words.

It's horse/bull manure.

"But I am sticking with bedjam for bedrum meaning earthen cot, sleeping place."

If you can prove to me that 'bedjam' evolved into 'bedroom' on linguistic grounds, I'd like to read it.

Linguistics is a university study, it's not kid's play with Lego.

Knowing how to clean a spot on your dress doesn't make you a chemist, knowing how to build a wall with bricks doesn't make you a geologist, knowing how to type a post here doesn't make you a computer expert, and so on.

The last pages made me aware why someone like Jaylemurph hates to participate. You appear to really underestimate what linguistics is all about.

"When it sounds similar, it must have the same origin".

When I start wearing a dress and a handbag doesn't make me a woman, right?

,

Edited by Abramelin

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You know what the modern Frisian word for 'bedroom' is?

Dekstael.

And you do know what the modern words for bedroom are in any Scandinavian language.

NOTHING like bedrum.

Well, why should that be eh? Maybe because they never ever used that word??

.

Edited by Abramelin

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FYI: I mailed Jensma yesterday asking if he had a reason to believe that Ottema changed his mind about OLB being true before he died.

Having read the first chapter of "Survivors" (I love it Alewyn, but Sandbach´s english translation begs to be improved), I think I know one of the reasons why there is so much resistance to OLB in Holland, and what could be a political reason to ignore, ridicule and suppress it.

(Partly subconscious?) FEAR for FLOODS, as a substantial part of the Netherlands lies below sealevel.

post-106727-034137700 1286655419_thumb.j

Edit: people don´t want to be reminded of what is hidden deep down their cultural (and genetic?) memory. Imagine what would happen to the value of real estate if people became more consciously aware of the danger.

Edited by Otharus

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FYI: I mailed Jensma yesterday asking if he had a reason to believe that Ottema changed his mind about OLB being true before he died.

Having read the first chapter of "Survivors" (I love it Alewyn, but Sandbach´s english translation begs to be improved), I think I know one of the reasons why there is so much resistance to OLB in Holland, and what could be a political reason to ignore, ridicule and suppress it.

(Partly subconscious?) FEAR for FLOODS, as a substantial part of the Netherlands lies below sealevel.

post-106727-034137700 1286655419_thumb.j

Otharus, you should have told him there is a 'fierce' discussion about the OLB going on on this site.

If he is anything worth his salt, he should feel challenged.

And fyi, he is not a linguist, he is a historian. I think I proved that here (he made a linguistic mistake even I noticed).

==

I don't think the regular floodings of Dutch territory has anything to do with them believing the OLB or not.

Don't you think the Dutch and/or Frisians would love to believe they were the creators of some grand European culture that influenced the more known ancient cultures, like the Greek, Egyptian, Hebrew, and the Indian cultures?

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Don't you think the Dutch and/or Frisians would love to believe they were the creators of some grand European culture that influenced the more known ancient cultures, like the Greek, Egyptian, Hebrew, and the Indian cultures?

But they might also want to break free again...

It took our authorities hundreds of years to enslave us.

I find a theory of conspiracy by the authorities to suppress OLB (to protect law and order) more credible than a theory about a few 19th century geniusses having created it and dozens of people having lied about it (sometimes under oath).

I´m not talking about people at the base of the pyramid (the masses), but the few most powerful ones at the top, who profit most of the work of all others under them.

(edit: did you read my edit too? -> threat to our economic system)

Edited by Otharus

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Apples and oranges are both round, but they taste different, they grow on very diferent trees, their color is different, they grow in different climates...

Payama/pajama/pyjama is an Indo/Iranian word having to do with pants, and has nothing to do with anything about sleeping. Yes, we westerners use it now when we go to bed (not me, btw, I hate these things).

You know what a 'yam' is? Well, if you don't, it's some kind of tropical root you can eat. Now suppose that yam makes us feel sleepy (full stomach makes one relexed because of the serotonin released after the intake of lots of starch). But you would therefore think that this word 'yam', this root, has linguistic connections with your bedjam...

The English 'sun' and 'son' sound very similar in my Dutch ears, and you won't believe how many times I have to edit my posts just because of that similarity.

But you won't hear me say that because of their similarity they must have the same etymological origin.

The one and only reason you start about this is because pyjama sounds similar to bedjam.

This is not serious, it's nothing but a play with words.

It's horse/bull manure.

"But I am sticking with bedjam for bedrum meaning earthen cot, sleeping place."

If you can prove to me that 'bedjam' evolved into 'bedroom' on linguistic grounds, I'd like to read it.

Linguistics is a university study, it's not kid's play with Lego.

Knowing how to clean a spot on your dress doesn't make you a chemist, knowing how to build a wall with bricks doesn't make you a geologist, knowing how to type a post here doesn't make you a computer expert, and so on.

The last pages made me aware why someone like Jaylemurph hates to participate. You appear to really underestimate what linguistics is all about.

"When it sounds similar, it must have the same origin".

When I start wearing a dress and a handbag doesn't make me a woman, right?

,

So pyjamas comes from Persian. It was a bit of a word game. It was a short add on post with no backup, just a thought. That the word jam is in it did seem to maybe point to a relation to bedjam. Í don't claim to make any great linguistic connection there really. I did think it could be but maybe it's not then.

However that bedjam, for sleeping place on the ground is an IE language and so is Persian makes me wonder of the original source of the Persian word, it sort of reminds of me of Himmellia.

Anyway, I'll get off pyjamas for now and agree I played on words.

But I won't give up on bedjam quite so easy.

I have thought some more on it so here is what I think as of today.

Bedjam was sleeping place in the ground, an earthen cot. So at some point we stopped lying on the earth for our bed and lay on an object up off the ground, so the sleeping place was not actually in the ground.

In Proto-Germanic they were saying bedjam, so after they stop sleeping on the ground it may have become just bed (sleeping place) - but not on the ground.

So bed would mean a sleeping place by then.

It seems bedjam became bed from everything I can read on it, not bedroom as such.

So, then the word rum as I showed the etymology of room must have been added, so I am agreeing with you there that the word does seem to be made up of the 2 parts but it doesn't have to mean it was created like that recently imo.

bedjam - sleeping place in the ground

bed - sleeping place

rum - space

bedrum- sleeping place space.

Used by Germanic and Nordic speakers before being infiltrated by Romans and any Latin words from them.

*jam = wedged in. That would refer to being wedged into the earthen ground cot, it was a place to wedge in for the night. Once we stopped wedging into the space in the ground that part would have been dropped from the word bedjam imo.

**jamb jamb

early 14c., from O.Fr. jambe "pier, side post of a door," originally "a leg, shank," from L.L. gamba "leg, (horse's) hock" (see gambol).

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=jam

There you can even see how jamb can mean leg. Maybe I can add to pyjamas after all. Later.

PS; Sorry, all I had was Lego, but I have lots of it, 3 kids and all...

Edited by The Puzzler

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But they might also want to break free again...

It took our authorities hundreds of years to enslave us.

I find a theory of conspiracy by the authorities to suppress OLB (to protect law and order) more credible than a theory about a few 19th century geniusses having created it and dozens of people having lied about it (sometimes under oath).

I'm pretty much thinking this same thing.

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bedjam - sleeping place in the ground

bed - sleeping place

rum - space

bedrum- sleeping place space.

:tu:

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Here's the problem Abe with supplying the sort of info you want. There seems to be very little, because no one knew much about Europe before the Romans invaded it and they made such an impact with their language it is hard to know how cultures before them in Europe spoke. No one recorded it or wrote it down, the people were not in Asia Minor mixing with everyone and leaving heaps of evidences to find later in great libraries of records.

We don't really know or have record of the way these Bronze Age Nordic European people spoke.

I think it's hard to understand the impact Rome made on the world really, by that I mean Europe really. Not only with language but religion. For thousands of years Rome ruled, it still does to a degree and to challenge the Latin language or to give 'savages' the right to a language before them is just not going to happen imo. In our psyche it is the Ramans and Latin that dominates in Europe but Europe had a good 20,000 years of inventive pre-history creating art like no one else of the time, creating stone structures that even today defy knowledge on what they were used for, so many secrets, hidden away, purposely crushed underfoot by the Roman armies as they marched through, taking everyone, I've read the stories of Boudiccia and Vercingatorix, Celtic and European people who tried as hard as they could to keep the Romans out to no avail.

Otharus put forward the idea this info was being suppressed by Dutch authorities to keep control of the area. This is not far-fetched and imo quite probable. the Dutch are the intruders really and very dominant. I know you are Dutch Abe and I am really not making a derogative jibe at you but I want to bring up stereotypes and believe me I am not offended by stereotyped Australians, cause we are pretty much like that deep down, I know men like Crocodile Dundee but we dont go around riding kangaroos and speaking some weird Americanised version of English like Bart Simpson has us speaking, I hate that episode of the Simpsons though, we are made out be some cockney people from the Wild West.

It's an interpretation of how other cultures see you and with all respect to you Abe, we see the Dutch as arrogant and dominant people. Most Dutch guys we knew are now prison officers or police men, it's like your people has an agenda of dominating others without even realising it probably. Huns remember lol.

That is why, I suppose my views are directed at agreeing with Otharus on the issue of why this would be covered up by the Dutch government as being drivel from nobodies with no history who just fantasise they were part of a significant world history...

Edited for atrocious spelling mistakes.

Edited by The Puzzler

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