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Riaan

[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood

11,638 posts in this topic

THEER IK EER NAVT SEGSA NE MACHTE.

that I may not speak."

that I was not allowed to say earlier."

I don't speak Scandinavian, Dutch, Flemmish, Afrikaans or German but I know macht means might, so where does might come into Otharus' interpretation

that I might not speak ??? seems to me what it says...

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THEER IK EER NAVT SEGSA NE MACHTE.

that I may not speak."

that I was not allowed to say earlier."

I don't speak Scandinavian, Dutch, Flemmish, Afrikaans or German but I know macht means might, so where does might come into Otharus' interpretation

that I might not speak ??? seems to me what it says...

I will try in Dutch:

"Dat ik eerder niet zeggen in/bij machte"

Or.. "Ik was eerder niet in de macht om het te zeggen"..In english: I wasn't allowed to speak earlier.

If you give someone 'de macht' to say something, it means you give her/him the power/authority to speak up.... or, you 'allow' her/him to speak.

In Dutch we still have an expresion that says, "bij volmacht", and it means to be officially allowed to do/speak.

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Yes, I got something from that big list, but you have posted about it already:

Siim Veski·Atko Heinsalu· ValterLang·

The age of the Kaali meteorite craters and the effect

of the impact on the environment and man:

evidence from inside the Kaalicraters, island of Saaremaa, Estonia

Received: 30 October 2003/Accepted: 6June2004/ Published online: 17July2004

Conclusions

1.AMS dating of terrestrial macrofossils from the

deepest part of the meteorite impact crater-lake at

Kaali, island of Saaremaa, Estonia places the age of

the impact at 1690 - 1510 B.C. The age agrees with

previous research inside the crater, but is about 1000

years older than revealed from impact marker-horizon

radiocarbon dating in a contemporaneous peat se-

quence, yet those two signatures reflect the same im-

pactevent. Themicrospherules discovered by Raukas

et al.(1995) could indicate another much older event

2.Chemical, pollen and diatom analyses from the bottom

sediments of Kaalij

sedimentation of loose crushed dolomite debris took

place in a shallow lake and that there seem to be no

hiatuses in the sedimentation. Consequently the low-

er most sediment contact of Kaalij

radiocarbon dating of the impact event.

3.Biostratigraphic material is difficult to interprete in

terms of impact age,but pollen grains of Secale and

Picea in the bottom sediments of Kaalij

that the impact was not earlier than 3800 B.C.

4.Archaeological evidence on the crater slopes points to

ceremonial activity since 700-200 B.C., and the

structure of the main impact crater is mimicked in

nearby archaeological sites. Some other evidence as

well points towards the importance of meteorite im-

pacts to prehistoric societies.

not connected with the Kaali impact.

http://www.gi.ee/~veski/10915.pdf

"Themicrospherules discovered by Raukas et al.(1995) could indicate another much older event"...

If a much older event happened nearby, then we should maybe start looking for a comet swarm that showed up in the solar system with some kind of regular and stable orbit.

I think Cormac already posted about other, nearby impacts.

EDIT:

Yes he did:

"There are two other impactor areas within relative proximity to the Kaalijarv Crater. These are the Ilumetsa Crater c.4600 BC in Estonia and the Morasco Craters c.3000 - 1500 BC in Poland.

cormac"

It suggests an orbit of 1500 years: 1500 BC - 3000 BC - 4600 BC - 6100 BC??

Hmm..

.

Yes, I agree.

Ive looked into it some this arvo and Morasco seems interesting, all I can get is 5000BP on that one - your info gives 3000-1500BC which opens a window.

I think too it is regulated because of the mention by Plato that this event returns after much time...

There is newly found crater in Western Egypt same vague timeframe of 5000BP (3000BP)

The mention of Phaethon going over Africa to burn the faces black of the Ethiopians makes me think that more than one impact is being spoken about but maybe at the same time, but also at some sort of interval.

The Perseid meteor showers were mentioned as a possible cause for the Morasco ones.

The Ilumetsa at 4600BC in Estonia too. Seems these people had seen a few then, Poland is not far away either.

4600, 3000, 1500

1500 years, yep, possibly so.

All 3 in the same area too, so it's likely they knew about the previous ones each time.

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It suggests an orbit of 1500 years: 1500 BC - 3000 BC - 4600 BC - 6100 BC?? - 7600 BC.

Actually, Abramelin, no it doesn't. What it does suggest, IMO, is the possibility that the Kaalijarv Crater and the Morasko Craters 'might' have happened at the same time. But this is only speculation on my part. Again, this would have nothing to do with a 2193 BC date.

...but I know macht means might...

And that's just one of many possibly meanings in German and DOESN'T mean that that is what it means in Dutch/Frisian/whatever.

cormac

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I will try in Dutch:

"Dat ik eerder niet zeggen in/bij machte"

Or.. "Ik was eerder niet in de macht om het te zeggen"..In english: I wasn't allowed to speak earlier.

If you give someone 'de macht' to say something, it means you give her/him the power/authority to speak up.... or, you 'allow' her/him to speak.

In Dutch we still have an expresion that says, "bij volmacht", and it means to be officially allowed to do/speak.

ne machte - isn't that no powers, so it means had no power to speak before, couldn't speak it...?

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Actually, Abramelin, no it doesn't. What it does suggest, IMO, is the possibility that the Kaalijarv Crater and the Morasko Craters 'might' have happened at the same time. But this is only speculation on my part. Again, this would have nothing to do with a 2193 BC date.

And that's just one of many possibly meanings in German and DOESN'T mean that that is what it means in Dutch/Frisian/whatever.

cormac

might (v.)

O.E. mihte, meahte, originally the past tense of may (O.E. magen "to be able"), thus "*may-ed." See may (v.). The first record of might-have-been is from 1848.

might (n.)

O.E. miht, earlier mæht, from P.Gmc. *makhtuz (cf. O.N. mattr, O.Fris., M.Du. macht, Ger. Macht, Goth. mahts), from PIE base *mag- "be able, have power" (see may (v.)).

They still both come from PIE mag - be able - may (able to) /have power

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Actually, Abramelin, no it doesn't. What it does suggest, IMO, is the possibility that the Kaalijarv Crater and the Morasko Craters 'might' have happened at the same time. But this is only speculation on my part. Again, this would have nothing to do with a 2193 BC date.

cormac

I think they 'might' have happened at the same time too actually, well, it was a thought I had.

First sentence from this pdf file:

Abstract: The TL dating of sinter crust of Morasko meteorites proves that the extraterrestrial matter

fell about 5000 yr BP. Similar data were obtained for the Kaali impact.

http://www.geochronometria.pl/pdf/geo_28/Geo28_04.pdf

The age of

the Kaali meteorite impact is still under discussion; range

from more than 7500 to 1500 yr BP, but considering

palynological analyses and the radiocarbon dates on craters’

infillings, the craters are at least 4000 yr old (Raukas

and Laigna, 2005; Raukas et al., 2005).

The 2000BC timeframe always pops up with Kaali.

Morasko seems to be older (at 3000BC) but possibly not, these dates seem very all over the place.

The Morasko meteorite shower fell between 5000 -– 3500 BP. The craters

origins and young hollow bottom organic infillings then started.

http://www.geochronometria.pl/pdf/geo_20/geo_20_17.pdf

Again, the mention of Phaethon's travel over Africa but landing in the Vistula is making me think the Moraska might be a better candidate.

This one is Henbury in Australia:

Several tonnes of iron-nickel fragments have been recovered from the site. The site has been dated to 4.2±1.9 thousand years ago based on the cosmogenic 14C terrestrial age of the meteorite.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henbury_craters

Kamil Crater, discovered from Google Earth image review in Egypt, 45 meters in diameter, 10 meters deep is thought to have been formed less than 3,500 years ago in a then-unpopulated region of Western Egypt. It was found February 19, 2009 by V. de Michelle on a Google Earth image of the East Uweinat Desert, Egypt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_event

1500BC was a date for the Kaali Crater and the time given in the Parian Marble for Deucalion (and also Phaethon).

Edit to add: from same pdf file above

It is possible to state that between 50003500 BP the

Morasko meteoriteshower fell and the meteorite craters

were formed. This event seems to be comparable to the

age of the Kaali craters (Raukas et al., 1995).

Edited by The Puzzler

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Actually, Abramelin, no it doesn't. What it does suggest, IMO, is the possibility that the Kaalijarv Crater and the Morasko Craters 'might' have happened at the same time. But this is only speculation on my part. Again, this would have nothing to do with a 2193 BC date.

And that's just one of many possibly meanings in German and DOESN'T mean that that is what it means in Dutch/Frisian/whatever.

cormac

Yes, I was a bit quick in concluding some sort of regular interval of impact events in that area. It seems quite unlikely that every 1500 years an impact event occurs in almost the same area.

--

About the translation : it could just mean: "I had no might to speak up earlier", or, "I wasn't able to speak up earlier". Could mean anything.

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I think they 'might' have happened at the same time too actually, well, it was a thought I had.

First sentence from this pdf file:

Abstract: The TL dating of sinter crust of Morasko meteorites proves that the extraterrestrial matter

fell about 5000 yr BP. Similar data were obtained for the Kaali impact.

http://www.geochronometria.pl/pdf/geo_28/Geo28_04.pdf

The age of

the Kaali meteorite impact is still under discussion; range

from more than 7500 to 1500 yr BP, but considering

palynological analyses and the radiocarbon dates on craters’

infillings, the craters are at least 4000 yr old (Raukas

and Laigna, 2005; Raukas et al., 2005).

The 2000BC timeframe always pops up with Kaali.

Morasko seems to be older but possibly not.

Check the table at the end of the pdf, "Table 2. Luminescence ages (TL and OSL) of samples from Kaali site"...

Your preferred date shows up only once in that table.

==

Also, from the same pdf:

At Ilumetsa, at least three craters are present. Põrguhaud,

the largest one, has a diameter of 75-80 m at the top of

the uplifted rim, and is 12.5 m deep. The crater is partly

filled with a thin layer of gyttja and peat that is up to 2 m

thick. Radiocarbon ages of 6030±100 (TA-310; 6600-

7250 cal BP) and 5910±100 (TA-752; 6450-7000 cal BP)

yr BP from the lowermost organic layer and palynologi-

cal evidence suggest that the impact took place some

C14 7000 C yr BP. Not far to South of Põrguhaud the next

crater is present; it is ~60 m in diameter and ~10 m deep,

but does not show rim walls. Its bottom is covered by ~2

m thick sandy diluvium. Investigation of glassy spherules

in nearby Meenikunno bog suggest, that the Ilumetsa

craters were formed about 6600 yr ago (Raukas et al.,

2001).

The oldest meteorite crater of the Quaternary age in

Estonia is located at Tsõõrikmägi near Räpina town (see

Raukas, 2002). Its mound is flattened, but a ring structure

is well preserved. The diameter of the crater at the top of

the mound is 38-40 m, and its depth from the highest

point of the rim is 5.5 m. The crater is located in the red-

dish-brown basal till. The peat in the depression is 4.5 m

thick and, according to the palynological and radiocarbon

data, the age of the crater is about 9500 yr (Raukas,

2002).

It appears to me that either we should look for some totally different event at 2000 BC, or wait till any defintive results show up.

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It appears to me that either we should look for some totally different event at 2000 BC, or wait till any defintive results show up.

The third option is to quit trying to pin something on a 2000 BC date, which is still irrelevant to the 2193 BC date. Neither of which is evidenced as being this BIG, DRAMATIC, CATASTROPHIC event in history as has been alleged by the OP and Alewyn's book. It's either that, or both the OP and Alewyn's book, based on the specific 2193 BC date should be dismissed completely as unevidenced and irrelevant to actual history. Neither of which would exclude the possibility of something significant having happened in the 3rd millenium BC.

cormac

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The third option is to quit trying to pin something on a 2000 BC date, which is still irrelevant to the 2193 BC date. Neither of which is evidenced as being this BIG, DRAMATIC, CATASTROPHIC event in history as has been alleged by the OP and Alewyn's book. It's either that, or both the OP and Alewyn's book, based on the specific 2193 BC date should be dismissed completely as unevidenced and irrelevant to actual history. Neither of which would exclude the possibility of something significant having happened in the 3rd millenium BC.

cormac

Yeah, agree to you and Abe, I'm getting a headache on these crater dates... :wacko:

I think they even deserve a Topic of their own.

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Yeah, agree to you and Abe, I'm getting a headache on these crater dates... :wacko:

I think they even deserve a Topic of their own.

You think those dates are a headache, here's a list of near contemporary dates for natural catastrophes, just to muddy the waters even further.

Vesuvius - Avellino Eruption: 1780 BC.........................Gebel Kamil Crater: c.<3000 BC

Mt. Etna: 1980 +/- 50 BC and 2330 +/- 100 BC...................Morasko Crater: c.3000 - 1500 BC

Thera: 1613 +/- 10 BC..........................................Kaalijarv Crater: c.1690 - 1510 BC

Mount Aniakchak Volcano: 1645 BC...............................Campo del Cielo Crater: c.<2000 BC

Mount Veniaminof Volcano: 1750 BC

Jebel Marra Volcano: 1500 BC

Meidob Volcanic Field: 3000 BC

Hekla Volcano: 2310 +/- 20 BC

Galunggung Volcano: 2250 +/- 150 BC

Ibusuki Volcanic Field: 2690 +/- 75 BC

Shiveluch Volcano: 2620 +/- 300 BC

Black Peak Volcano: 1900 +/- 150 BC

Mt. Saint Helens Volcano: 1770 +/- 100 BC

El Chichon Volcano: 2030 +/- 100 BC

Nevado del Tolima Volcano: 1990 +/- 200 BC

This is further reason I believe the 2193 BC date should be tossed away, completely.

cormac

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Good list.

I have one more post on the craters because I was already writing it...

Hyginus mentions the opinion of a Hegesianax that Deucalion is to be identified with Aquarius, "because during his reign such quantities of water poured from the sky that the great Flood resulted."

Once the deluge was over and the couple had given thanks to Zeus, Deucalion (said in several of the sources to have been aged 82 at the time) consulted an oracle of Themis about how to repopulate the earth. He was told to cover your head and throw the bones of your mother behind your shoulder. Deucalion and Pyrrha understood that "mother" is Gaia, the mother of all living things, and the "bones" to be rocks. They threw the rocks behind their shoulders and the stones formed people. Pyrrha's became women; Deucalion's became men.

Hints of rocks falling from the sky. Flooding would have killed many as the flood was sent to quell the hubris, but also it could have been seen as the falling rocks (being thrown over their shoulder, like the sky is throwing them out) that renewed life and created new life, a new kind of people after the impact had finished it's destruction - the people coming out of it..

Deucalion and Phaethon occurred c. 1529/8 according to the Parian Marble and report that Deucalion flood and Phaethon came in the time of Crotopus.

He repopulated the earth - (after a cataclysm that flooded the earth)

Around 1530BC seems to be compatible with the 1500BC impacts in Estonia, Australia and Egypt also so fits the travelling around of Phaethon as he loses control, going over Ethiopia etc before falling into the Eridanus, in Northern Europe.

This one might be the Phaethon myth.

(Prometheus is probably the actual fire itself - since he was punished for bringing fire to mankind) Recalling the mention in the Finnish myth of going to the Kaali impact site to gather fire.)

I think also the circular shape is older than that and the impacts did seem to have a pattern actually, the Phaethon one may only be the last of 3 that was really known, if I look at the words of Plato in a different context to how I have.

The Phaethon story is equal to the Deucalion timeframe according to Greek registers, Plato would know that.

That is 1530BC. This would be the last fire/flood/cataclysm the Greeks knew of, but there had been 2 more before that one.

So, if we have one at 1500BC, then one at 3000BC, which seems to be the Moraska Craters, then 4600BC for the Illumetsa crater, it is indeed 1500 year spans in between 3 impact events. (Using those very broad dates)

Edited by The Puzzler

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This whole article reminded me of Alewyn's idea...maybe one that inspired him, although the date of Crete and Greek mainland at 2200BC is either an overlooked error I can't figure out since other details seem to indicate whoever wrote it would know it was 1200BC not 2200BC, so I pretended I didn't see that part...

http://personal.eunet.fi/pp/tilmari/tilmari2.htm

The OLB is mentioned eventually. I think some good points are made even though it's very thrown together, which makes me think it's a very early idea draft.

I enjoyed reading it.

Impacts in the 3rd Millenium.

Edited by The Puzzler

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You think those dates are a headache, here's a list of near contemporary dates for natural catastrophes, just to muddy the waters even further.

cormac

Excellent list but to throw some more silt into the mix.

A strike like Tunguska, (an airburst) wouldn't show up in the geological record except in unsettled sediments.

Legends don't always pass through a culture, myths die, cultures change. People in the US rarely if ever refer to the New Madrid earthquake.

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Excellent list but to throw some more silt into the mix.

A strike like Tunguska, (an airburst) wouldn't show up in the geological record except in unsettled sediments.

Legends don't always pass through a culture, myths die, cultures change. People in the US rarely if ever refer to the New Madrid earthquake.

Bad example Hanslune. Although its never again generated the type of effects that were so devastating in 1812, many people still talk about it in the area. I know, because I was stationed at Blytheville AFB, Arkansas from 1984 to 1988, before it was renamed Eaker AFB and then shut down.

cormac

Edited by cormac mac airt

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The only time the exact date of 2193 BC shows up in history is in relation to the end of the reign of the Akkadian king, Shar-kali-sharri, when his kingdom was overrun by the Gutians.

Now a lot of copy and paste - and yes, I know Puzzler already did so - but here it is again:

+++

Akkad and Guti Period (2334-2112 BC) ... The Akkadians are a Semitic-speaking people who lived in the northern part of what was later to be called Babylonia beginning with the accession of Hammurabi. The period usually refers to the 141 years circa 2334-2193 BC defined by the reign of the five kings of the Sargonic Dynasty. The area extended from north of Nippur to Sippar. Some scholars add another 40 years to this period (see below) to include the 2 later kings of the city-state Agade -- which has not yet been found by archaeologists. Sargon was King of Kish which implied suzerainty over northern Babylonia when he defeated the principal ruler in Sumer -- King Lugalzagesi of Uruk (1) thus uniting the non-Semitic Sumer with the more northerly Akkad under one kingship ...

The actual Sargonic Dynasty ended with SharKaliSharri in 2193 BC ... The collapse of the embattled state of Akkad may have been the result of internal weaknesses and rebellion and foreign attack especially -- according to Sumerian tradition -- the Gutians (ibid) of the Zagros Moutains on the Iraq-Iran border ... They then subjugated and laid waste the whole of Sumer © ... With the collapse of the Akkadian Empire the land lost its common leadership and collective power. The wild Gutian hordes were not very qualified for the leadership so the individual cities in Sumer and Akkad fell back to the old city-state (D) localized hegemony ... The now obscure and impotent Akkadian Dynasty survived for another 40 years in name only with Dudu and ShuDurul as kings but there realm was limited to the region of the capital. The instumental role of the Gutian tribes in the fall of Akkad is uncertain. It seems more likely that they filled the vaccuum created by the decay of the empire (Page 811 2) ...

http://ancientneareast.tripod.com/Sumer.html

==

Very little is known about the Guti, who appear to have been barbarian raiders from the Zagros [Mountains] who brought to an end the Dynasty of Akkad and destroyed its capital circa 2200 BC. Gutium, a mountainous area in south-west Iran, was a troublesome part of the Akkadian Empire and the year names of the kings of Akkad record campaigns against the region.

The King List records twenty or twenty-one Gutian kings ruling Sumer and Akkad, totalling 125 years, although it is uncertain whether at the time of the invasion they had a king or were still barbarian hordes. The Guti left very few traces of their rule except for a few monuments and dedications inscribed with their names.

They adopted Mesopotamian Culture and traditions and Akkadian personal names. It is likely that there rule of the area or conglomerate of city-states formerly controlled by the Akkadians was only partial and that other city-states or local kings ruled at the same time.

The Guti were finally expelled by Uthegal, King of Uruk circa 2100 BC. Uthegal marched out of Uruk and fought the Guti, led by a king called Tirigan who had been on the throne for only forty days, at a place called Ennigi. Tirigan was defeated and fled but was captured and returned to Uthegal ...

http://ancientneareast.tripod.com/Guti.html

--

Shar-kali-sharri

(24) 2217-2193BC

In 2217 Naram-Sin died and Shar-Kulli-Sharri became king. The empire weakened. Puzur Inshushinak invaded two vassal states and even led his army deep into Akkad itself. Invasions by the Amorites and the troops of Martu occurred. After Shar-Kulli-Sharri died in 2193 B.C. things got far worse. The Gutians invaded Akkad and the dynasty that Sargon had founded collapsed. The temple of Ishtar at Assur was destroyed and the royal palace at Agade was sacked.

However, the Sumerian cities (Ur, Nippur, Uruk, Lagash, etc.) remained intact during the period of Gutian domination and actually prospered. The Gutian rule ended in 2123 B.C. The ruler of the Sumerian city of Uruk was Utu-Hegal ('Lugal'). He overthrew the Gutians and cast off their yoke forever. His first act in doing this was imprisoning the ambassadors of Tirqan, the Gutian king. Thus Utu-Hegal founded the neo-Sumerian dynasty. However, the Akkadians eventually regain control of Mesopotamia.

http://www.swartzentrover.com/cotor/bible/timelines/Babylon/Akkad/Akkad.htm

=======

The Gutian king names from the Sumerian list are Inkishush, Zarlagab, Shulme (or Yarlagash), Silulumesh (or Silulu), Inimabakesh (or Duga), Igeshaush (or Ilu-An), Yarlagab, Ibate, Yarla (or Yarlangab), Kurum, Apilkin, La-erabum, Irarum, Ibranum, Hablum, Puzur-Suen, Yarlaganda, Si-um (?), and Tirigan. Based on these names, some scholars claim that the Gutian language was neither Semitic nor Indo-European, and was unrelated to the languages spoken around it.[1].

However, according to T. Gamkrelidze and V. Ivanov, Gutian language was close to Tocharian languages of the Indo-European family[4]

The historical Guti have been widely regarded as among the ancestors of the Kurds, including by the modern Kurds themselves. However, in the late 19th-century, Assyriologist Julius Oppert sought to connect the Gutians of remote antiquity with the later Gutones (Goths), whom Ptolemy in 150 AD had known as the Guti, a tribe of Scandia. Oppert's theory on this connection is not shared by many scholars today, in the absence of further evidence.[5]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gutian_language

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandia

++

But now check the kinglist if these Gutians: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gutian_dynasty_of_Sumer

According to the OLB, the Frya people entered the Mediterranean, and then invaded the Middle East and the Punjab and maybe further. They were a lot more civilized than the Akkadian tablets tell us about the Gutians. OK, they were enemies, but the Gutians show now resemblence at all with these 'Frya people'.

And... the Goths from Gotland island (Sweden) travelled across the Baltic, invaded Poland, and then travelled south to the Black Sea area. Nowhwere do we read anything about that in the OLB. Did they forget?? Heh.

And then the kinglist of the Gutians... well, read those names. Nothing resembling Nordic or German names at all.

++++++

EDIT:

And then that date according to the interpretations of the OLB, 2193 BC.

It's simply wrong: it should be 2194 BC instead, because there is no year Zero.

"Written at Liuwert, in the three thousand four hundred and forty-ninth year after Atland was submerged—that is, according to the Christian reckoning, the year 1256. Hiddo, surnamed Over de Linda.—Watch."

Everybody did this: 3449 - 1256 = 2193...

:lol:

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Comet smashes triggered ancient famine

Ker Than

New Scientist

Wed, 07 Jan 2009 17:33 UTC

Multiple comet impacts around 1500 years ago triggered a "dry fog" that plunged half the world into famine.

Historical records tell us that from the beginning of March 536 AD, a fog of dust blanketed the atmosphere for 18 months. During this time, "the sun gave no more light than the moon", global temperatures plummeted and crops failed, says Dallas Abbott of Columbia University's Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory in New York. The cause has long been unknown, but theories have included a vast volcanic eruption or an impact from space.

Now Abbott and her team have found the first direct evidence that multiple impacts caused the haze. They found tiny balls of condensed rock vapour or "spherules" in debris inside Greenland ice cores dating back to early 536 AD. Though the spherules' chemistry suggests they did not belong to an impactor, they do point to terrestrial debris ejected into the atmosphere by an impact event, Abbott says. "This is the first concrete geological evidence for an impact at 536 AD," she says.

The fallout material was also laid down over several years, and some layers were particularly densely deposited. This suggests more than one impactor was involved - probably a comet, because they tend to fragment on their way to Earth.

Abbott and her team have identified two possible underwater craters whose age ranges fit the global dimming event. The first appears to have formed when an object roughly 640 metres wide slammed into the Gulf of Carpentaria in Australia, and the other when a smaller object crashed into the North Sea near Norway.

Marine microfossils found with the impact spherules are also consistent with an ocean impact. "There's clearly stuff that has been transported a long distance," says Abbott, who presented the team's findings at the meeting of the American Geophysical Union in San Francisco last month.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20126882.900-comet-smashes-triggered-ancient-famine.html

==

And now check the Tütten See Crater(s):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiemgau_impact_crater

" According to radiocarbon data and archeological finds, the impact is dated to 500 BCE by the CIRT".

Anything on that in the OLB?

NO.

500 AD, 500 BC, catastrophic events, killing many people.

THe OLB scribes must have been on vacation in Lydia's land at the time, LOL.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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The only time the exact date of 2193 BC shows up in history is in relation to the end of the reign of the Akkadian king, Shar-kali-sharri, when his kingdom was overrun by the Gutians.

Now a lot of copy and paste - and yes, I know Puzzler already did so - but here it is again:

+++

Akkad and Guti Period (2334-2112 BC) ... The Akkadians are a Semitic-speaking people who lived in the northern part of what was later to be called Babylonia beginning with the accession of Hammurabi. The period usually refers to the 141 years circa 2334-2193 BC defined by the reign of the five kings of the Sargonic Dynasty. The area extended from north of Nippur to Sippar. Some scholars add another 40 years to this period (see below) to include the 2 later kings of the city-state Agade -- which has not yet been found by archaeologists. Sargon was King of Kish which implied suzerainty over northern Babylonia when he defeated the principal ruler in Sumer -- King Lugalzagesi of Uruk (1) thus uniting the non-Semitic Sumer with the more northerly Akkad under one kingship ...

The actual Sargonic Dynasty ended with SharKaliSharri in 2193 BC ... The collapse of the embattled state of Akkad may have been the result of internal weaknesses and rebellion and foreign attack especially -- according to Sumerian tradition -- the Gutians (ibid) of the Zagros Moutains on the Iraq-Iran border ... They then subjugated and laid waste the whole of Sumer © ... With the collapse of the Akkadian Empire the land lost its common leadership and collective power. The wild Gutian hordes were not very qualified for the leadership so the individual cities in Sumer and Akkad fell back to the old city-state (D) localized hegemony ... The now obscure and impotent Akkadian Dynasty survived for another 40 years in name only with Dudu and ShuDurul as kings but there realm was limited to the region of the capital. The instumental role of the Gutian tribes in the fall of Akkad is uncertain. It seems more likely that they filled the vaccuum created by the decay of the empire (Page 811 2) ...

http://ancientneareast.tripod.com/Sumer.html

==

Very little is known about the Guti, who appear to have been barbarian raiders from the Zagros [Mountains] who brought to an end the Dynasty of Akkad and destroyed its capital circa 2200 BC. Gutium, a mountainous area in south-west Iran, was a troublesome part of the Akkadian Empire and the year names of the kings of Akkad record campaigns against the region.

The King List records twenty or twenty-one Gutian kings ruling Sumer and Akkad, totalling 125 years, although it is uncertain whether at the time of the invasion they had a king or were still barbarian hordes. The Guti left very few traces of their rule except for a few monuments and dedications inscribed with their names.

They adopted Mesopotamian Culture and traditions and Akkadian personal names. It is likely that there rule of the area or conglomerate of city-states formerly controlled by the Akkadians was only partial and that other city-states or local kings ruled at the same time.

The Guti were finally expelled by Uthegal, King of Uruk circa 2100 BC. Uthegal marched out of Uruk and fought the Guti, led by a king called Tirigan who had been on the throne for only forty days, at a place called Ennigi. Tirigan was defeated and fled but was captured and returned to Uthegal ...

http://ancientneareast.tripod.com/Guti.html

--

Shar-kali-sharri

(24) 2217-2193BC

In 2217 Naram-Sin died and Shar-Kulli-Sharri became king. The empire weakened. Puzur Inshushinak invaded two vassal states and even led his army deep into Akkad itself. Invasions by the Amorites and the troops of Martu occurred. After Shar-Kulli-Sharri died in 2193 B.C. things got far worse. The Gutians invaded Akkad and the dynasty that Sargon had founded collapsed. The temple of Ishtar at Assur was destroyed and the royal palace at Agade was sacked.

However, the Sumerian cities (Ur, Nippur, Uruk, Lagash, etc.) remained intact during the period of Gutian domination and actually prospered. The Gutian rule ended in 2123 B.C. The ruler of the Sumerian city of Uruk was Utu-Hegal ('Lugal'). He overthrew the Gutians and cast off their yoke forever. His first act in doing this was imprisoning the ambassadors of Tirqan, the Gutian king. Thus Utu-Hegal founded the neo-Sumerian dynasty. However, the Akkadians eventually regain control of Mesopotamia.

http://www.swartzentrover.com/cotor/bible/timelines/Babylon/Akkad/Akkad.htm

=======

The Gutian king names from the Sumerian list are Inkishush, Zarlagab, Shulme (or Yarlagash), Silulumesh (or Silulu), Inimabakesh (or Duga), Igeshaush (or Ilu-An), Yarlagab, Ibate, Yarla (or Yarlangab), Kurum, Apilkin, La-erabum, Irarum, Ibranum, Hablum, Puzur-Suen, Yarlaganda, Si-um (?), and Tirigan. Based on these names, some scholars claim that the Gutian language was neither Semitic nor Indo-European, and was unrelated to the languages spoken around it.[1].

However, according to T. Gamkrelidze and V. Ivanov, Gutian language was close to Tocharian languages of the Indo-European family[4]

The historical Guti have been widely regarded as among the ancestors of the Kurds, including by the modern Kurds themselves. However, in the late 19th-century, Assyriologist Julius Oppert sought to connect the Gutians of remote antiquity with the later Gutones (Goths), whom Ptolemy in 150 AD had known as the Guti, a tribe of Scandia. Oppert's theory on this connection is not shared by many scholars today, in the absence of further evidence.[5]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gutian_language

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandia

++

But now check the kinglist if these Gutians: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gutian_dynasty_of_Sumer

According to the OLB, the Frya people entered the Mediterranean, and then invaded the Middle East and the Punjab and maybe further. They were a lot more civilized than the Akkadian tablets tell us about the Gutians. OK, they were enemies, but the Gutians show now resemblence at all with these 'Frya people'.

And... the Goths from Gotland island (Sweden) travelled across the Baltic, invaded Poland, and then travelled south to the Black Sea area. Nowhwere do we read anything about that in the OLB. Did they forget?? Heh.

And then the kinglist of the Gutians... well, read those names. Nothing resembling Nordic or German names at all.

++++++

EDIT:

And then that date according to the interpretations of the OLB, 2193 BC.

It's simply wrong: it should be 2194 BC instead, because there is no year Zero.

"Written at Liuwert, in the three thousand four hundred and forty-ninth year after Atland was submerged—that is, according to the Christian reckoning, the year 1256. Hiddo, surnamed Over de Linda.—Watch."

Everybody did this: 3449 - 1256 = 2193...

:lol:

.

They adopted Mesopotamian Culture and traditions and Akkadian personal names. It is likely that there rule of the area or conglomerate of city-states formerly controlled by the Akkadians was only partial and that other city-states or local kings ruled at the same time.

The Guti were finally expelled by Uthegal, King of Uruk circa 2100 BC. Uthegal marched out of Uruk and fought the Guti, led by a king called Tirigan who had been on the throne for only forty days, at a place called Ennigi. Tirigan was defeated and fled but was captured and returned to Uthegal ...

I think the Gutians might be Goths from Gotland actually God's Land...Tirigan is Nordic. Google Tirigan, it means Tyr's battle. I picked up on it a while back when I thought Gurtnish and Gutish reminded me of each other. I dunno exactly but I get an anxiety attack when I start researching the topic more so I usually avoid it.

What was your point but...? That this should have been mentioned in the OLB if the Gutians had come from Gotland?

Edited by The Puzzler

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Excellent list but to throw some more silt into the mix.

A strike like Tunguska, (an airburst) wouldn't show up in the geological record except in unsettled sediments.

Legends don't always pass through a culture, myths die, cultures change. People in the US rarely if ever refer to the New Madrid earthquake.

Cultures do change and the stories spread and I think, get interpreted by others into their own cultures.

I'm thinking about the Phaethon event, who seems to fell into the Eridanus, which may be the Vistula, Heliades etc, all points to Helle setting.

So, the Greeks say this event occurred when Deucalion was King in Thessaly, Thessaly plains were covered in water and Poseidon is said to have split the mountains to let the water out after Zeus had flooded the area, one says, he flooded the area to put out the fire caused by Deucalion.

Then we have Phaethon going over Ethiopia, to burn their faces black.

There is no evidence for an impact in Greece but is in Estonia and Poland, the area the amber trade came from.

I think that possibly some sort of overlaying of stories has gone on here in 2 cultures.

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I was just reading some more of Survivors of the Great Tsunami.

I'm curious Alewyn, how you explain the iron in use by Frya's people.

In the book you say the iron might have simply rusted away, but I don't know about that, it doesn't have very strong backup archaeologically for it to be in Northern Europe much before 600BC - so how did they have iron just after the Atland event...??

Rusted away, I wonder if it could, plus I imagine it was quite valued and if any weapon was found lying around it was immediately taken, if they had their iron weapons taken off them by everyone, maybe they were simply left with none, to find...

Just thinking.

Edited by The Puzzler

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They adopted Mesopotamian Culture and traditions and Akkadian personal names. It is likely that there rule of the area or conglomerate of city-states formerly controlled by the Akkadians was only partial and that other city-states or local kings ruled at the same time.

The Guti were finally expelled by Uthegal, King of Uruk circa 2100 BC. Uthegal marched out of Uruk and fought the Guti, led by a king called Tirigan who had been on the throne for only forty days, at a place called Ennigi. Tirigan was defeated and fled but was captured and returned to Uthegal ...

I think the Gutians might be Goths from Gotland actually God's Land...Tirigan is Nordic. Google Tirigan, it means Tyr's battle. I picked up on it a while back when I thought Gurtnish and Gutish reminded me of each other. I dunno exactly but I get an anxiety attack when I start researching the topic more so I usually avoid it.

What was your point but...? That this should have been mentioned in the OLB if the Gutians had come from Gotland?

My point was indeed that this migration from the Baltic to Akkad was not mentioned as such in the OLB.

And the idea of these Gutians being Goths is based on nothing but a resemblence in names; using that kind of logic, I could say the Gitanes are descendents of the Goths too.

I know about the Nordic explanation of the name "Tirigan", but that is called 'Hineininterpration" in German; first one says the Gutians are Goths, and then you deduce the name Tirigan according to that assumption.

"Inkishush or Inkicuc (proto-ON 'Ingvi's-son'?) was a Gutian ruler in Sumer from ca. 2135 BC to 2129 BC."

That would maybe be some Frisianic then, right? An Inguavoni? Forgetting Enki was an Akkadian/Sumerian god.

And there is nothing else than this to support the idea that the Gutonians were Goths.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gutian_language

++++

EDIT:

And here's site that places these Goths all over the place:

http://oldgoths.blogspot.com/2009/04/more-old-texts-on-asian-origin-of.html

.

Edited by Abramelin

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I have talked about the location of Twiskland, which is Germany according to most interpreters of the OLB, accept Alewyn, who thinks it's Russia.

According to Tacitus the ancient germanic tribes believed in a supreme god with the name Tuisto or Tuisco. So it should be no surprise that the ones who wrote the OLB called them Twiskar or Twisklandar.

OK, here a quote in English from the OLB:

Now I will write myself, first about my Citadel, and then about what I have been able to see.

11. This was the way that I did. My journey was along the Rene - on this side up, and on the other side down. The higher I went, the poorer the people seemed to be. Everywhere about the Rene the people dug holes, and the sand that was got out was poured with water over fleeces to get the gold, but the girls did not wear golden crowns of it. Formerly they were more numerous, but since we lost Skenland they have gone up to the mountains. There they dig ore and make silver.

12. Above the Rene among the mountains I have seen Marsatar. The Marsatar are people who live on the lakes. Their houses are built upon piles, for protection from the wild beasts and wicked people. There are wolves, bears, and horrible lions. Then come the Swetsar, the nearest to the frontiers of the Heinde Krekalandar, the followers of Kalta and the savage Twisklandar, all greedy for robbery and booty.

13. The Marsatar gain their livelihood by fishing and hunting. The skins are sewn together by the women, and prepared with birch bark. The small skins are as soft as a woman's skin. The burgh-femme at Fryasburch told us that they were good, simple people; but if I had not heard her speak of them first, I should have thought that they were not Frya's people, they looked so impudent.

14. Their wool and herbs are bought by the Rene people, and taken to foreign countries by the ship captains. Along the other side of the Rene it was just the same as at Lydasburch. There was a great river or lake, and upon this lake also there were people living upon piles. But they were not Frya's people; they were black and brown men who had been employed as rowers to bring home the men who had been making foreign voyages, and they had to stay there till the fleet went back.

Marsatar (living on the lakes), Svetsar (the 'Zwiters' in Dutch, or the Swiss in English), Heinde Krekalander (Italians).....

And then the OLB mentions the "savage Twisklandar".

Now you tell me: are these Twisklandar people from present day Russian, or simply Germanic tribes??

==========================================

Another thing: the script used by (some of) the Frya people.

Here is what I found about the Helvetii, the present Swiss ("Swetsar") and/or those Marsatar:

--

29. In castris Helvetiorum tabulae repertae sunt litteris Graecis confectae et ad Caesarem relatae, quibus in tabulis nominatim ratio confecta erat, qui numerus domo exisset eorum qui arma ferre possent, et item separatim, quot pueri, senes mulieresque. [Quarum omnium rerum] summa erat capitum Helvetiorum milium CCLXIII, Tulingorum milium XXXVI, Latobrigorum XIIII, Rauracorum XXIII, Boiorum XXXII; ex his qui arma ferre possent ad milia nonaginta duo. Summa omnium fuerunt ad milia CCCLXVIII. Eorum qui domum redierunt censu habito, ut Caesar imperaverat, repertus est numerus milium C et X.

...

29. In the camp of the Helvetii, lists were found, drawn up in Greek characters, and were brought to Caesar, in which an estimate had been drawn up, name by name, of the number which had gone forth from their country of those who were able to bear arms; and likewise the boys, the old men, and the women, separately. Of all which items the total was:

Of the Helvetii [lit. of the heads of the Helvetii]

263,000 Of the Tulingi

36,000 Of the Latobrigi

14,000 Of the Rauraci

23,000 Of the Boii

32,000 The sum of all amounted to

368,000

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0001%3Abook%3D1%3Achapter%3D29

--

So, close/north to the homeland of the Romans ("Heinde Krekaland"), people were using GREEK script.

Not Etruscan script, not Latin script, not the OLB script, no... GREEK script.

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Twiskland, according to my stretched interpretation of the OLB (the black area is Frya's land, the yellow area is Twiskland, the red area is Marsatar/Swetsar territory):

Twiskland.jpg

Don't judge me on this image: some areas may be larger, some may be smaller.

Alewyn's version:

OLB_map_Alewyn6.jpg

Take a close look: Frya's land was not just between Alewyn's 'Aster Sea' and the 'Middle Sea' (Mediterranean), come on.

It was between the Ural Mountains and the Strait of Gibraltar/Atlantic.

Well, if we have to believe what Alewyn made of it.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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I'm from Frisia and I've read this topic for quite a while and I'm truly amazed this thread has gone to 105 pages, because Thet Oera Linda Bok is clearly a forgery, like most of Frisia's history.

One obvious reason not to believe it's authenticity is the paper. The paper used to write the book was at most twenty years old, which was intentionally made to look older. If the book was really copied for generations, than it obviously would have made sense to mention that and that new paper was used instead of making it intentionally look older.

Also, paper was very expensive prior to when the book was written. It wouldn't have been copied that much and if it would truly been deemed that important, it wouldn't have remained in private possession for such a long time and the story would have been at least as much copied and be at least as well known as Jewish mythology was.

Aside from the paper, there are many other reasons to believe that Thet Oera Linda Bok is a forgery. First is linguistics. Old Frisian was well known among Frisian scholars and there would definitely have been people who would have been able to write an extensive narrative in an Old Frisian-ish language or even a plausible precursor of it. François HaverSchmidt definitely would have known that Greece was called Kreklond in Old Frisian, just to name something. I haven't read Thet Oera Linda Bok, but where it clearly goes wrong is when modern Frisian like inventions are used when the authors didn't know an Old Frisian word. These examples are made to look old, but clearly look very modern. I'm greatly interested in Frisian history and linguistics and I've read quite some Old Frisian texts, but Thet Oera Linda Bok is simply too easy to read for a modern Frisian like me.

Thirdly, a great part of Frisian history is a forgery and a big part of Frisian history was invented during the late 19th, early 20th century. I.e. it was very common for Frisians to colour (I will come back to that later, because not all is fake) their history. Frisians are proud people and if nobody can refute their claims, it quickly finds its way in history books. For example, many Frisians will believe that the Frisian flag is hundreds of years old, the flag dates from the late 19th century. It is true that the flag is based on much older Frisian and Germanic heraldry. For once, compare the coat of arms and flag of Frisia to the coat of arms of Denmark. The symbols on the Frisian flag probably have the same ancient origins as the French Fleur-de-Lis. In reality the Frisian flag is a rather modern invention.

Also, many Frisians believe that the Frisian language is very old, preceding many other modern languages (this is even claimed in the Frisian anthem). Fact is that this can easily be disproven. The Old Frisian language developed only in the late first, early second millennium. The Anglo-Saxon language started to develop much earlier.

True, the Frisii were mentioned by Tacitus, but after that the population of the area declined and several other tribes migrated from the east to England, and probably many Frisii travelled with them. Other probably thought that England was too far after all and settled in the region. Of course the Frisii were related to these other tribes and their linguistic kinship was only reinforced during this period of migrations, but the truth is that nobody knows what language the Frisii spoke, which parts of it still have been preserved, how numerous the Frisii were and who is and who isn't a descendant of the Frisii.

Another example which comes to my mind is the tale of Friso, Saxo and Bruno which moved from India and split up in Europe to form different tribes.

Like any other Frisian does, I do find much pleasure every now and then in imagining these stories to be true, but except for proud, Frisians are also realists and when we're presented with the facts there's nothing we can do, but accept them.

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