Free will?

[danielost]

if we have no free will then it doesnt matter what we do.

if there is no god then it doesnt matter what we do.

if there is no hell it doesnt matter what we do.

do you see the pattern here.

Edited June 30, 2010 by danielost

[ShaunZero]

One word: Determinism. There's no other alternative, we don't have free-will because of determinism. Sadly though, my brain won't let me accept this; so I'll leave on pretending as if somehow we have free-will, in some incomprehensible way.

EDIT: Look up determinism. I don't feel like getting into a long discussion about what it is and what it suggests.

Edited June 30, 2010 by ShaunZero

[Mr Walker]

There are always reasons for us doing things and sometimes these reasons are even unknown to us on a conscious level.

We are always a "slave", so to speak, to these reasons. Even if you were to do something you would not ordinarily do in order to excersize "free will" there is still a reason that dictated why you did this. In this sense Free Will is an illusion.

Thanks for reading!

With respect i think you are confusing free will with other factors. Of course there may be reasons for choices but this does not negate the concept of free will.

Free will comprises two parts. First an ABILITY to see consequences and to make choices. This is an innate ability of sapience and any human level sapience possesses it.

That allows for informed free will. Let us suppose, as a child, i come to a cliff. I can crawl off it, or not. The choice is available to me in my mind, and i have no knowledge of consequences to guide me.

As a n adult, when i approach the cliff I still have a number of choices available to me. But now i can ac on informed free will.

Here is the thing Knowledge of effects which will take place AFTER a choice, cannot physically restrict our ABILITY to chose freely. Knowing i will die if i step off the cliff does not prevent me from doing so and it certainly does not stop me choosing to. Many things are physically constrained from our will by natural laws EG i cant jump of the clifff and fly. Yet i can chose to try and do this. Nothing prevents the exercise of this mentla choice. The fact that certain things may be physically impossible does not constrain free will and it doesnt stop us imagining or eeven attempting what we know to be impossible.

Humans, because of their level of sapience, have an almost unlimited potential number of ways to respond to any event in their life. Until they act, ALL tjose potentials exist, and NO future is determined. Thus "A" future as such does not physically exist.

Once they act on one potential, that limits others but opens another set. It is like a single gold thread weving through a three dimensional tapestry. The path of that thread is not determined unti the tapestry is completed. when the tapestry begins any path for the thread is possible.

No one is guiding the path of the thread. It is sapient and self aware. It creates its own path through free willed choices and actions. It may well respond to the actions of other threads and to external forces but it does so through a self conscious realisation of those forces and through free willed choice in response.

All the other threads are also sapient and making decisions. There are also external factors like gravity and the colour of the threads which may play a part in the final shape and imagery of the tapestry, but they don't impact on the decisions of the threads.

The Past is fixed. The Present is in the process of fixing/solidifying. One certain future does not exist, but a multitude of potential futures does. How every human acts will determine, both their individual destinies, and those of the world.(at least in a small part)

Finally, humans have the unfettered ability to act on their will. We are free not just to think but to act. Only the conditioned responses of our mind and our understanding of causality restrict the forms our choices take, and those restrictions are both artificial and self constructed. We can ignore, circumvent, or oppose, each and everyone of them

The second component of free will is freedom to act on a mental choice.

Any human has this freedom, subject only to physical restraints But those restraints only apply after an eercise of will and a physical act is commenced. Even a paraplegic can ATTEMPT to walk. i can ATTEMPT to walk through a brick wall, thus illustrating my ability to act on a choice The fact that the wall stops me, has nothing to do with my freedom of will or choice.

Our minds suffer the constraints of our organioc hosts and perhaps fortunately we cannot transform our will and desire into physical form without physicl efort. But again, this is not a limitation on either freedom of will or freedom of choice, and in our dreams we can indeed create anything we desire, from our will alone.

Could i ask those who deny free will.

Just wha tmecahanism do you see as preventing the existence and operation of free will in sapient beings? Who or what other than yourself is controlling you >Wha tphysical forces are preventing negating the operation of free will and free choice. An investigation of these questions ma yclarify what is meant by "FREEDOM" Lots of people believe they are not free, and are thus constrained by those beliefs, so they dont act on their free will. That does not mean it does not exist in eithr theory or reality.

Acting with wisdom, and knowledge of consequence, is not abrogating free will, it is merely using free will and choice to facilitate good(constructive) decisionmaking.

But no one is COMPELLED organically or intellectualy to either think or act in any way. That is the true beauty of human level sapience. It frees us from the evolutionary and genetic conditionings of the non spaient.

Unless our mind is negated through drugs, or perhaps hypnotism/brainwashing, we have complete self will and self choice in every decision we make.

MAny people dont like this concept because of the awesome duties and responsibilities it creates. Many seek to escape it.

I embrace the knoweldge that my choices and my actions make a differnce, and help to alter the destinies of self, others, and my bit of the world, for the better.

Ps determinism does not apply to the actions of a self aware sapient being, capable of both visualising and acting on visualisations. Any entity with imagination, and particularly with a data bank of knowledge, can (at will) overturn simple determinism.

Non living, and non sapient beings may be, in varying degrees, subject to determinism, but any sapient, self aware, being/entity is not, unless it choses to allow itself to be; which is in itself an act of free will.

Determinism simply cannot apply to any self aware entity with human level or higher sapience, given the theoretical definition of the nature of determinism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism

For example, most of the opinions on this page are wrong. Once one understands why they have arisen, one can see that they were not in fact predetermined but chosen responses/beliefs.

Other responses/beliefs were, and remain, equally viable. These ones have grown through human conditioning, but there is nothing inevitable or determined about them. That is a fallcy created by our position in a linear time line, wher we look back and say. "well being here i can see that it was inevitable."

Sorry but it wasn't. Nothing was inevitable and nothing is inevitable

The past cant be changed, but the future can, and is done so, through every action we take in the present. In doing this we DO change our past but only when it has become our past(we change our past every day when we change our future) because our past was once one of many potential future. And one of our potential futures will eventually become first our present then our past. BUT, as yet, that particular future, and hence that particular past, is not yet "determined" We can chose it for ourselves

Thus in chosing our future we chose our past. So there is no way our past can determine our future.

At the beginning of the universe a multitute of potentialities existed. That number has not diminished over time, but increases with the evolution of sapient life forms in the universe.(This is true even if humanity is the only sapient life form in the universe.)

MAny many futures lie open to humanity, and thus to the way we will shape the universe. Let a determinist try to prove otherwise

Edited July 1, 2010 by Mr Walker

[+Paranoid Android]

As a Bible-believing Christian, I cannot reconcile the idea of free will (as it is currently understood in conventional terms) with the Bible. God is sovereign, and His choice is sovereign. No one chooses God unless God first chooses them, and no one can resist the will of God.

I am not opposed to the possibility that free will and predestination can coexist in a dimension outside our physical and linear existence, hence why I clarify my comment that I am referring to free will as it is currently understood in conventional terms. As it stands, it seems pretty clear that the Bible supports God's predestination.

I'll share Bible passages later when I'm at home and have time, if you're interested

~ Regards, PA

[Mr. Miyagi]

With respect i think you are confusing free will with other factors. Of course there may be reasons for choices but this does not negate the concept of free will.

Free will comprises two parts. First an ABILITY to see consequences and to make choices. This is an innate ability of sapience and any human level sapience possesses it.

That allows for informed free will. Let us suppose, as a child, i come to a cliff. I can crawl off it, or not. The choice is available to me in my mind, and i have no knowledge of consequences to guide me.

As a n adult, when i approach the cliff I still have a number of choices available to me. But now i can ac on informed free will.

Here is the thing Knowledge of effects which will take place AFTER a choice, cannot physically restrict our ABILITY to chose freely. Knowing i will die if i step off the cliff does not prevent me from doing so and it certainly does not stop me choosing to. Many things are physically constrained from our will by natural laws EG i cant jump of the clifff and fly. Yet i can chose to try and do this. Nothing prevents the exercise of this mentla choice. The fact that certain things may be physically impossible does not constrain free will and it doesnt stop us imagining or eeven attempting what we know to be impossible.

Humans, because of their level of sapience, have an almost unlimited potential number of ways to respond to any event in their life. Until they act, ALL tjose potentials exist, and NO future is determined. Thus "A" future as such does not physically exist.

Once they act on one potential, that limits others but opens another set. It is like a single gold thread weving through a three dimensional tapestry. The path of that thread is not determined unti the tapestry is completed. when the tapestry begins any path for the thread is possible.

The Past is fixed. The Present is in the process of fixing/solidifying. One certain future does not exist but a multitude of potential futures does. How every human acts will determine, both their individual destinies, and those of the world.(at least in a small part)

Finally, humans have the unfettered ability to act on their will. We are free not just to think but to act. Only the conditioned responses of our mind and our understanding of causality restrict the forms our choices take, and those restrictions are both artificial and self constructed. We can ignore, circumvent, or oppose, each and everyone of them

The second component of free will is freedom to act on a mental choice.

Any human has this freedom, subject only to physical restraints But those restraints only apply after an eercise of will and a physical act is commenced. Even a paraplegic can ATTEMPT to walk. i can ATTEMPT to walk through a brick wall, thus illustrating my ability to act on a choice The fact that the wall stops me, has nothing to do with my freedom of will or choice.

Our minds suffer the constraints of our organioc hosts and perhaps fortunately we cannot transform our will and desire into physical form without physicl efort. But again, this is not a limitation on either freedom of will or freedom of choice, and in our dreams we can indeed create anything we desire, from our will alone.

No... no i'm not. It's simple really, Ya just have to wrap your head around it. There are reasons that we do everything. In a sense these reasons negate our free will, especially when these reasons are unknown to us. Such as a person that has spent there life being emotionally abused and clams up when yelled at rather than speak up to defend themselves for example. Even if they do speak up, they did so for a reason. Not solely because they wanted to.

Lets look at your brick wall example. You can attempt to walk through it. Whether you do so or not is irrelevant, so is your free will. the reason you tried was to prove a point. you are a slave to that reason. Another example would be why you replied to my post in the first place. Only you know why. And only you are a slave to that reason. Free will had nothing to do with it.

Not that this pov is all that practical in and of itself in day to day life, but one can use it to get to better know how and why they do things.

Thanks for reading MW! Hope all is well!

Edit-

I didn't catch your edit here-

Could i ask those who deny free will.

Just wha tmecahanism do you see as preventing the existence and operation of free will in sapient beings? Who or what other than yourself is controlling you >Wha tphysical forces are preventing negating the operation of free will and free choice. An investigation of these questions ma yclarify what is meant by "FREEDOM" Lots of people believe they are not free, and are thus constrained by those beliefs, so they dont act on their free will. That does not mean it does not exist in eithr theory or reality.

Acting with wisdom, and knowledge of consequence, is not abrogating free will, it is merely using free will and choice to facilitate good(constructive) decisionmaking.

But no one is COMPELLED organically or intellectualy to either think or act in any way. That is the true beauty of human level sapience. It frees us from the evolutionary and genetic conditionings of the non spaient.

Unless our mind is negated through drugs, or perhaps hypnotism/brainwashing, we have complete self will and self choice in every decision we make.

MAny people dont like this concept because of the awesome duties and responsibilities it creates. Many seek to escape it.

I embrace the knoweldge that my choices and my actions make a differnce, and help to alter the destinies of self, others, and my bit of the world, for the better.

We are compelled to act a certain way, usually based upon previous experiences. Even if you deny that compulsion and do something different, that initial compulsion is the reason you did something different. Are you telling me you do everything for no reason at all? That's rediculous MW.

I think it's you who may feel a little threated by your awesome duties and responsibilities being taken away by a different point of view. Not true? Why did you reply in the first place?

Thanks again.

Edited July 1, 2010 by Mr. Miyagi

[Larving]

If God already knows the end and He has made us with a plan then are we really living our lives "freely"

example: a game...if he makes the game and i am playing it. what is the point of playing it if he knows where i will go where i will move if i will win? i understand that WE may not know that stuff and that that is why He is the creater but what if i never asked to play?

Because you play the game for your own sake, not for that of whatever god.

Edited July 1, 2010 by Larving

[Mr Walker]

Yes thats the trouble with posting then editing. You will note i did it again

Sorry, but the idea that free will does not exist is siply ridiculous to me and ive spent nearly 60 years reading about and considering this issue it IS impt in how it affects a persons relationship withthe world. Thinking of it as an illusion is equally stupid inmy opinion but then i would urge anyoone who cant accept the principle to accept the illusion because the only safe way to liove life is ASIF each decision and action we make is critically important.

I dont think i will convince you, but let us suppose i was an australian aboriginal who decided to give up drinking. Immediately my measurable statistical potentilas would change Id be about 85% less likely to be involved in social or domestic violeonce Equally less likelt to be involved in any criminal offence and over 50 % less likely to have a traffic accident. My life WOULD alter significantly from that point

For me the decision is a product of sapient self awareness knowing the effects neither genetic conditioning nor environmental conditioning would inform my choices My intellect would I would chose because i could Tha tis the differnce between humans and all other known entities.

You can argue that many factors might lead up to that choice but they do not determine the choice i make at tha t point. Our mind frees us from the forces of both nature and nurture.

Sapience is not a force amenable to determinism although it can be affected by the physical nature of the world around it. What a man can imagine a man can attempt, and eventually nothing is impossible to a human being

Do you really believe your life, your future, and the future of the world is predetermined? Then i suggest you grab hold of the illusion of free will.

I KNOW that many potential futures exist for me, and always have.

I have seen some of them and, with help, have altered them.

Even at my age many potentialities and futures exist. I can shape them at will. I know "billions" of potential futures exist for the earth, from complete destruction to a galactic spanning species which shapes the very form of the universe itself.

I have seen /experienced many of these myself

Which future i, and humanity, enjoy depends entirely (or at least largely) on the choices sapient beings wil make from now on. Thus i have 2 responsibilities. Primarily to do all i can to alter the future for good, and second to urge all others to do so in their daily lives and choices. Nothing is determined. Any one can change their life right now and hence change the world.

As a history teacher i can also see that absolutely nothing about the past was predetermined. Anything could have turned out differently. Only our own nature, and our position trapped in linear time makes us think that the past(and hence the future) is predetermined.

Huamans have the ability to destroy asteroids before they hit us, or spread through space, (thus the ability to overide natural determinism in the universe)the ability to destroy or recreate our world. We are no longer tied to determinist destinies.

Now, you give up drinking today (or alternatively, if it appeals more, conscientiously drink a litre of spirits every day . )If you cant "see"/extrapolate how your life will diverge given just those two simple choices, then i can appreciate how you may feel trapped. ANd it is just your will and choice which decides which path you take (you might use reason and emotion to decide but they are simply aspects of your will)

You have a belief. To me it is not a logical, rational, belief; but that does not give me the right to deny you your belief. It is simply beyond my comprehension given my understanding of myself and my universe.

Ps of course i do everything for a reason. That, to me, is the supreme exercise of informed free will. That is why animals and vegetables dont have/cant exercise, free will

I chose rational behaviour. On the other hand, like luke rhineharts dice man i can, and have, lived life by throwing a dice to deternmine my action in every possible scenario.

Fortunately i didnt carry it to its ultimate conclusion but it is an interecting experiment. Even today i often chose using random probability in non critical decisions eg by tossing a muti sided dice. It is interesting to plot the connections and chains of cause and effect which this method creates but it is only another exercise of free choice based on curiousity. I dont have to do it, and i dont have to act on the dice's advice.

In life no one, and nothing, can compel me to an action i do not choose, or to think a thought i do not chose. They can take away my liberty but not my freedom.

Edited July 1, 2010 by Mr Walker

[Mr. Miyagi]

Yes thats the trouble with posting then editing. You will note i did it again

Sorry, but the idea that free will does not exist is siply ridiculous to me and ive spent nearly 60 years reading about and considering this issue it IS impt in how it affects a persons relationship withthe world. Thinking of it as an illusion is equally stupid inmy opinion but then i would urge anyoone who cant accept the principle to accept the illusion because the only safe way to liove life is ASIF each decision and action we make is critically important.

That's great. There's a reason you think it's rediculous. It's because you spent all that time studying something to the contrary. There's a reason you did that as well and so on and so forth. Some of those reasons may eventually be completely out of your control. It can be disconcerting to be sure.

I dont think i will convince you, but let us suppose i was an australian aboriginal who decided to give up drinking. Immediately my measurable statistical potentilas would change Id be about 85% less likely to be involved in social or domestic violeonce Equally less likelt to be involved in any criminal offence and over 50 % less likely to have a traffic accident. My life WOULD alter significantly from that point

For me the decision is a product of sapient self awareness knowing the effects neither genetic conditioning nor environmental conditioning would inform my choices My intellect would I would chose because i could Tha tis the differnce between humans and all other known entities.

You can argue that many factors might lead up to that choice but they do not determine the choice i make at tha t point. Our mind frees us from the forces of both nature and nurture.

Your aboriginal stopped drinking for a reason. You seem to insinuate that the reason was to alter his life for the better. He is a slave to that reason. You can take it back further as well. there's a reason that he feels thats a reason to quit drinking at all and so on and so forth.

Those factors give you the illusion that you have a choise. Whatever you do is determined because of or in spite of that particular factor. You cannot escape that.

Sapience is not a force amenable to determinism although it can be affected by the physical nature of the world around it. What a man can imagine a man can attempt, and eventually nothing is impossible to a human being

Do you really believe your life, your future, and the future of the world is predetermined? Then i suggest you grab hold of the illusion of free will.

I never said the future of the world is pre determined. Nobody completely controls what happens to them from day to day. however there are reasons determined by prior reasona and actions that determine how we react to what happens to us from day to day.

I KNOW that many potential futures exist for me, and always have.

I have seen some of them and, with help, have altered them.

Even at my age many potentialities and futures exist. I can shape them at will. I know "billions" of potential futures exist for the earth, from complete destruction to a galactic spanning species which shapes the very form of the universe itself.

I have seen /experienced many of these myself

Which future i, and humanity, enjoy depends entirely (or at least largely) on the choices sapient beings wil make from now on. Thus i have 2 responsibilities. Primarily to do all i can to alter the future for good, and second to urge all others to do so in their daily lives and choices. Nothing is determined. Any one can change their life right now and hence change the world.

As a history teacher i can also see that absolutely nothing about the past was predetermined. Anything could have turned out differently. Only our own nature, and our position trapped in linear time makes us think that the past(and hence the future) is predetermined.

Huamans have the ability to destroy asteroids before they hit us, or spread through space, (thus the ability to overide natural determinism in the universe)the ability to destroy or recreate our world. We are no longer tied to determinist destinies.

Now, you give up drinking today (or alternatively, if it appeals more, conscientiously drink a litre of spirits every day . )If you cant "see"/extrapolate how your life will diverge given just those two simple choices, then i can appreciate how you may feel trapped. ANd it is just your will and choice which decides which path you take (you might use reason and emotion to decide but they are simply aspects of your will)

You have a belief. To me it is not a logical, rational, belief; but that does not give me the right to deny you your belief. It is simply beyond my comprehension given my understanding of myself and my universe.

And so on and so forth... Ya wanna know the kicker? There's a reason why you think you know all these things. That's the reason you just wrote what you wrote. Your free will had nothing to do with it.

Try this for example... music... why do you listen or not listen to certain types. Why do you like or dislike certain types of music. Sure you can give me the different aspects of why you like one particular piece. Why do you like those aspects? What experiences led to that opinion? What were the reasons for those experiences? It all depends on how far down the rabbit hole you wan to go. Still feel in control?

Thanks for the conversation MW.

Edit- thought I'd indulge abit since you already have. Can you do me a favor and try and not make this about your super powers. You know I have little interest in the subject and you already have your own little thread devoted entirely to you in the other section.

Thanks in advance, I'm sure you'll understand man.

Edited July 1, 2010 by Mr. Miyagi

[+Paranoid Android]

Anybody who does not choose God, anybody who is not a true Christian, will be sent to hell for all eternity and tortured. That's what the Christian religion teaches.

As a point of interest, but not all Christianity teaches that people will be tortured for all eternity. While it is true that some do teach this, there are also many others that do not. That's not to say that we Christian's don't believe in consequences for not believing - but what form do these consequences take? Many Christian churches argue that it is not torture.....

Just a thought,

~ PA

[lookingfortruth]

Can I decide what to eat for breakfast? yes. Does randomness exist? no.

I don't believe there's an answer to this. Almost a useless argument if you ask me

That doesn't mean it's not interesting though!

[IamsSon]

Isn't the mere fact that we each DECIDED to participate in this "useless argument" as looking put it, give clear indication that we decide? I personally did not feel as if I had no choice but to post, I DECIDED I wanted to participate.

Did any of the participants feel as if they had no choice but to post? I'd be interested in dialoguing with anyone who felt they had no choice in this matter.

Edited July 1, 2010 by IamsSon

[aNoNymOus XO]

wow um thank you for all your posts. sorry for those who felt it was a "useless agrument" i just wanted your thoughts on the subject. thank you to everyone who has participated you have really given me something to think about !

[+Paranoid Android]

Isn't the mere fact that we each DECIDED to participate in this "useless argument" as looking put it, give clear indication that we decide? I personally did not feel as if I had no choice but to post, I DECIDED I wanted to participate.

Did any of the participants feel as if they had no choice but to post? I'd be interested in dialoguing with anyone who felt they had no choice in this matter.

Hi Iams,

In short, yes, I did decide to join this discussion. But was this a result of actual free will, or is this only the illusion of free will??? Hope things are well with you - haven't spoken in ages. Best wishes,

~ Regards, PA

Edited July 1, 2010 by Paranoid Android

[Mr Walker]

name='Mr. Miyagi' date='01 July 2010 - 01:19 PM' timestamp='1277952589' post='3474441']

That's great. There's a reason you think it's rediculous. It's because you spent all that time studying something to the contrary. There's a reason you did that as well and so on and so forth. Some of those reasons may eventually be completely out of your control. It can be disconcerting to be sure.

Thats a belief and a self fulfilling one. Concerting/ disconcerting has no effect on reality. How i feel about predestination determinism is irrelevant. Logically, given the nature of sapience it is impossible (of course you can define determinism in ways which sound pluasiblw but it is only a human philosophical construct , itself built upon human understandings which may be either correct or incorrect.

Your aboriginal stopped drinking for a reason. You seem to insinuate that the reason was to alter his life for the better. He is a slave to that reason. You can take it back further as well. there's a reason that he feels thats a reason to quit drinking at all and so on and so forth.

Slave to reason is a catchy phrase but silly. Reason frees one rather than enslaves one. A n entity without self awareness, abilty to see future and past, and to act on reason, is a slave to circumstance and determinism. However any sapaient entity is not, and cannot be. You are saying that a person will always decide something the same way and for the same reason.

This is logically false. While, once a decisionis made, it becomes the only decision made, until it is made all possibilities are open. No one can know what decision would be made. If it was possible we would have a multiverse with an infinite number of umniverses. Because of the nature of time this is impossible. Yet theoretically in the future a multiverse exists it merely solidifies into our universe through the passge of time from future through present to future.

Those factors give you the illusion that you have a choise. Whatever you do is determined because of or in spite of that particular factor. You cannot escape that

The true illusion is that we do not have choices via our ability to think and act. Of course previous forces can influence a persons decisions That does not determine them or make them inevitable A multitude of potential chpices exisst . Only when one is chosen does it become determined Thus only yhthe past and present are determined the future cannot be.

I never said the future of the world is pre determined. Nobody completely controls what happens to them from day to day. however there are reasons determined by prior reasona and actions that determine how we react to what happens to us from day to day.

Determinism says that from the beginning of the universe only one pathway time line is possible. That simply is not true.

And so on and so forth... Ya wanna know the kicker? There's a reason why you think you know all these things. That's the reason you just wrote what you wrote. Your free will had nothing to do with it.

Reasons do not impact on will. Will determines choice of reasons.

Try this for example... music... why do you listen or not listen to certain types. Why do you like or dislike certain types of music. Sure you can give me the different aspects of why you like one particular piece. Why do you like those aspects? What experiences led to that opinion? What were the reasons for those experiences? It all depends on how far down the rabbit hole you wan to go. Still feel in control?

Its not a feeling, its a knowledge. Of course there are things i cant control They are not a part of will free or otherwise but where i have choice they are consequential on the exercise of free will. Whether i like a piece of music or not(or whether i was born tone deaf) does not impact on my knowledgemy will or on my freedom to chose. reasons for choice do not restrict freedom of choice.

Thanks for the conversation MW.

Edit- thought I'd indulge abit since you already have. Can you do me a favor and try and not make this about your super powers. You know I have little interest in the subject and you already have your own little thread devoted entirely to you in the other section.

There is nothing about super powers in this. Ive read since childhood. As a reader i have explored many possible future worlds and histories Inmy dreams and imaginations i have explored others. I have ridden light ships throughthe centr of the universe and been transformed into various forms of sentience. There is nothing super[powered or magical in this. Read some of turtledoves alternative world histories and you will see what i mean. Any future is open to me and to all people.

Thanks in advance, I'm sure you'll understand man.

I understand your disinterest in superpowers lol Edited July 2, 2010 by Mr Walker

[Tiggs]

Determinism says that from the beginning of the universe only one pathway time line is possible. That simply is not true.

Is that an opinion, or do you have evidence for that?

[IamsSon]

Hi Iams,

In short, yes, I did decide to join this discussion. But was this a result of actual free will, or is this only the illusion of free will???

I refuse to believe that God is simply playing a more complex version of "The Sims" so there must be a way in which we reason and choose and yet God remains all knowing and His will is done.

Hope things are well with you - haven't spoken in ages. Best wishes,

~ Regards, PA

Yes, it has been quite a while since we spoke! Things are going well, my friend. Hope you're doing well.

[XIV]

My opinion is that as long as you are on a Right Hand Path (one that seeks to atone with a God structure) you will not have Freedom of Will.

What is commonly referred to as God is the objective universe, the natural ordering of things, the physical, material world.

Within this framework, we are at the mercy of the ordered universe, a matrix of ratio and formula as in the Golden Mean, Fibonacci Sequence, Phi etc.

The Left Hand Path allows us Freedom of Will. This is our subjective universe, our soul, psyche etc., seeking separation from the ordered universe so that we 'can' choose of Free Will.

XIV

[aNoNymOus XO]

As a Bible-believing Christian, I cannot reconcile the idea of free will (as it is currently understood in conventional terms) with the Bible. God is sovereign, and His choice is sovereign. No one chooses God unless God first chooses them, and no one can resist the will of God.

I am not opposed to the possibility that free will and predestination can coexist in a dimension outside our physical and linear existence, hence why I clarify my comment that I am referring to free will as it is currently understood in conventional terms. As it stands, it seems pretty clear that the Bible supports God's predestination.

I'll share Bible passages later when I'm at home and have timsdse, if you're interested

~ Regards, PA

The Bible says its Gods will for everybody to be saved (2peter 3:9)....but not all of us choose God. isnt that free will?

And Jesus said for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that WHO SO EVER believes in him should not

persisb but have everlasting life...thats mans choice is it not? (john 3:16)

[aNoNymOus XO]

I have a question for everyone who said free will is an illusion....do all of you have the choice to read this? do all of you have the choice to jump out the window? do all of you have to choice to turn off your computer? isnt that free will? so how is that an illusion? just a question

[Tiggs]

I have a question for everyone who said free will is an illusion....do all of you have the choice to read this? do all of you have the choice to jump out the window? do all of you have to choice to turn off your computer? isnt that free will? so how is that an illusion? just a question

Because whatever choice you're going to make has already been predetermined.

[aNoNymOus XO]

First i woould REALLY like to thank you all for commenting...you have ALL given me so much to think about.

just now reading these comments something came to my head and i wanted to share it with you.

I hope you are all aware of the story...Willie Wonka and the Chocolate Factory.

In the end mr wonka said to charlie (when he gave the candy back) he knew he would give the candy back. he knew he had the good heart.

mr wonka knew charlie was the boy yet he still had to go threw everything else like everybody else and yes he messed up with the bubble drink but he humbled himself in the end.

is this not an example of free will to? i think the problem with free will is poeple (i also include myself i donot judge anyone) want free will but do not "like" (for lack of a better term) the idea of the consiquences that follow our decisions.

please tell me if i have made no sense with this willie wonka idea cause i have it in my head but im having trouble expressing what is really in my mind at the moment.

thanks

Edited July 2, 2010 by Tiggs
Changed unfortunate typo that means something completely different

[XIV]

The answer to this question lies within the two statements:

Thy Will Be Done & My Will Be Done

The premise behind this topic is not about mundane quests such as "I think I'll turn right here. See, I am exercising my freedom of Will".

It is more about Being under the Will of God or Not Being.

XIV

[Trog]

Hey Empty heart .... Good question , one that most thinking people ask themselves at least once in their lifetime .

Two and a half thousand years ago a well informed Greek invented a discipline called Philosophy , and a branch of that original philosophy we now call Numerology , this allows us to see the pathway we choose for each incarnation .... Yes we live many lifetimes .

Sometimes we deviate from that path , which is called Free Will , but mostly we are drawn back onto that path because in our Subconscious mind there is a memory of our past lives .... We have exercised Free Will in the past .

If we exercise our Free Will and abandon the chosen pathway , we then fail to learn the lessons that we agreed to in that particular incarnation .

When we reincarnate we enter into a contract with our creator that we will learn the lessons that we agreed to , for that particular lifetime .

There is no Escape Clause written in to that contract , therefore , if we break that contract , by exercising our Free Will , then there is a penalty to pay , which is , we get to repeat that life over and over again until the penny drops , and we knuckle down and learn those particular lessons .

So what does it all mean , it means that we are all on the treadmill trying to learn the lessons that will allow us to evolve into people who will live in peace and happiness and total harmony , with no fences and no boundaries .... At least that's how I see it , and I guess eventually we'll find the truth.

[+Paranoid Android]

I refuse to believe that God is simply playing a more complex version of "The Sims" so there must be a way in which we reason and choose and yet God remains all knowing and His will is done.

Hey again, Iams. I wouldn't necessarily put it in the same terms as you do (a more complex version of 'The Sims'), but what it does come down to is God's sovereign choice (not our choice). As I said at the start, I am not averse to the idea of man's choice and God's choice working in harmony (free will and predestination coinciding together), but this is not what the conventional understanding of "free will" is. When we think of free will, we think of our conscious and individual choice to do something - in terms of salvation, to choose to follow God and believe his words, or to choose not to do this. But the scriptures are clear that no one comes to God unless God chooses them, and who can resist the will of God? In this sense, at the very least we can say that salvation is predestined by God's sovereignty, though it may be possible that some other actions are of our own free choice.

I'll share some passages on this in my next post to emptyheart, if you want to skip down to that post after this

Yes, it has been quite a while since we spoke! Things are going well, my friend. Hope you're doing well.

Indeed, I'm going fantastic down in Aussie-land. Cheers,

~ PA

Edited July 2, 2010 by Paranoid Android

[+Paranoid Android]

The Bible says its Gods will for everybody to be saved (2peter 3:9)....but not all of us choose God. isnt that free will?

And Jesus said for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that WHO SO EVER believes in him should not

persisb but have everlasting life...thats mans choice is it not? (john 3:16)

Hi emptyheart,

I apologise in advance for the length of this post, but this topic is not exactly a short one to discuss from a biblical perspective. In any case, before I begin I just wanted to comment on your reference/s to 2 Peter 3:9 and John 3:16. First to quickly discuss John 3:16, I see what you are saying, but this comment is still true if God seeks us and calls us, then we who are called by God repent and believe - John 3 is still valid when we believe, but we believe because of God's sovereign choice. Second, to 2 Peter, I would argue that he is making a different point than the conclusion you have drawn. To quote that verse, for the benefit of those who are reading this post:

The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

~ 2 Peter 3:9

The author states that it is God's desire that all should reach repentance, but the facts of the matter are that not everyone will reach repentance. Now remember that this passage is being written to those people who are asking why Jesus hasn't returned yet (2 Peter 3:4) - and Peter counters that God is working on a different time scale as we are (the famous "a thousand years is a day to the Lord" passage is just before this in verse 8). Obviously not everyone will reach repentance, but God is guiding his plan in just the way he wants it in order to save everyone who is in his plan to save.

On the topic of Peter, his other New Testament book (1 Peter) has an interesting passage worth looking up:

"They stumble because they disobey the message—which is also what they were destined for."

~ 1 Peter 2:8

Verse 7 makes it clear that Peter is referring to non-Christians who stumble at Jesus' words, and here is made clear that those who stumble do so because that is what they were destined for.

This is the clearest single-verse in the Bible that speaks of people being destined to stumble, but the most comprehensive outline on this issue is found in the book of Romans (chapter 9). In this section, Paul asks (and answers) many questions on the issue of predestination that I think every Christian must at least deeply consider before making their judgements on this topic (I have heard some counters to the verse, but I have yet to find one of them convincing). The section I'll be focusing my discussion on is Romans 9:10-24, but it won't hurt to familiarise yourself with the rest of Romans (if you haven't already). Anyway, I'll pick up from verse 10:

10 Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13 Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

Paul starts in verse 10 by appealing to the Old Testament story of Esau and Jacob. In this Old Testament story, Esau lost his birthright to Jacob, even though he was the firstborn and therefore rightful heir. Paul states clearly in verse 11 - before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad - in order that God's purpose in election might stand: not by works..... Again this is a very clear statement concerning God's purpose of election in choosing one over the other, not because of anything they had done (works), indeed before they were born or had done anything to deserve it or not, God had chosen one over the other. One could argue that it related specifically to Esau and Jacob and does not directly relate to us today (a valid observation, but for the rest of the passage - which broadens the context to beyond Old Testament patriarchs)..... Continuing on to the next set of verses:

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

Paul again draws on Old Testament references, quoting the story of Pharaoh and Moses from Exodus 33 in stating "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy". He repeats this in various wording in this section multiple times. And in verse 17, again talking of Pharaoh - I (God) raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power..... Did Pharaoh have a choice in the matter? I would argue that he did not, especially when Exodus notes that Pharaoh was about to let the Israelites go, except for God's intervention in hardening Pharaoh's heart (however, there is a point worth raising on this issue - I'll discuss this shortly). Moving on to verse 19, and this is where I find the passage getting really interesting:

19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' " 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

Paul specifically addresses the argument that many today use - "if God made me like this, how can God still blame me for my actions". And the simple answer Paul gives - who are you to talk back to God. God, the King, the creator. You can't understand God. He's too big for you, you're just a human. It's not an answer a lot of people like (heck, I don't like it either, and I'm a Christian). It's not exactly an ideal answer, and I sure wish anywhere in the Bible there was a better answer provided, but this is the answer given. Paul then uses an analogy that any in the day could understand - how can a pot say to a potter "why did you make me like this". The potter can make grand pots or common use pots (a decorative vase, or a chamber pot for example). The pot has no say in the matter - it's all up to the creator of the pot! God, the creator. In any case, I'm going to move on to the next few verses:

22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

I'll end my discussion here after these verses. Here, Paul theorises why people are actually created for destruction - why would God make people destined for destruction? What if God created these "objects of his wrath - prepared for destruction" to show the "riches of his mercy" to those whom he "also prepared in advance for glory". He prepared certain people for destruction, in order to show glory to those who also were prepared for glory - in other words, how can we who are saved truly appreciate the massive gift of eternal life that God has given us if we didn't have an alternative (destruction) to compare it to.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

With all that said and done, I'll repeat my earlier comments that I am not completely averse to the idea of predestination and free will existing in some form on God's plane of existence. In an earthly world, one cannot have both, but with God all things are possible. There is some evidence of this dual predestination/free will issue in the book of Exodus. As mentioned above in my discussion on Romans 9, Pharaoh is said to be close to releasing the Israelites, and he very well might have, except for the matter that "God hardened Pharaoh's heart". There are several occasions where this happened - Exodus 4:21, 7:3-4, 9:12, 10:1, 10:20, 10:27, 11:10, 14:4, 14:8, 14:17. However - it must also be noted here that while God did harden Pharaoh's heart, there are also other places where Pharaoh hardened his own heart (sometimes within the same section that God hardened it. For examples of this, see - Exodus 8:15, 8:32, 9:34 - see also 1 Samuel 6:6.

Considering this dual hardening, it is possible to argue that both free will and predestination exist, but it is impossible for us to say that we choose, for this is simply not the case. God chooses.

If it helps at all, I would like to point out that I used to believe in free will also, but after studying these passages I have simply found it is impossible to reconcile complete free will in context of God's sovereign rule. As I mentioned, I've tried looking at this passage from other directions, heard people give ideas as to why they feel that way, but I haven't been able to agree with anyone yet. I'm always happy to take other interpretations of scripture, as long as they are contextually accurate (and yes, from time to time it does happen that other valid interpretations are given; sometimes even valid enough to change my opinions) - if you feel there is a better explanation than the one I provided, I'd be most appreciated if you shared it.

Anyway, I once again apologise for the length of this post. I sincerely hope you've had a chance to read through it, even if you still arrive at different conclusions.

~ Regards, PA

Edited July 3, 2010 by Paranoid Android
edited typo