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stardustmeggie

Many Questions About Ritual Abuse

33 posts in this topic

Hello everyone. This is my fist time on this forum and I hope that by coming to this forum I can get some further comments or insights into an issue that I have been researching quite a bit already. If not, then hopefully one of you can point me in the right direction. This new post that I have started is about ritual abuse. While people such as counselors, social workers, and law enforcement all claim to have come across individuals making the claim of some kind of ritualistic abuse, others doubt the existence of such alleged crimes and even question the very meaning of "ritual abuse". You may be asking yourself, why is she so interested with this and where is this going? Well truth be told, as a child I did in fact go through a traumatic event that took me many years to process and deal with. It causes me psychological grief and spiritual confusion. I wish not to give the details, but this experience was very bizzare, frigthening, and rittualistic in nature. Now please hear me out on this first. This story is not to make accusations against any specific religious group or even those involved in occultic type belief systems. I am merely trying to understand this personal experience, which was forced upon me against my will and in isolation. If someone comes to this forum with knowledge regrading this matter, and education in things such as religious cults, Occult activities and symbols, etc than I would openly dicuss this matter with them to gain a better understanding. Like I already stated, I am not trying make any false claims or accusations on any group of people. Furthermore, I must also point out that in my research I discovered that it has often been said that children and adults coming forth with their stories have not been believed or are going through some kind of False Memory Syndrome, which to me is BS. Imagine for a moment going through a strange and rare experience that seems to be ignored by a society and shrouded in inpenetrable mystery, only to be riducled and never believed. And what if these experiences by these other people were completely true and real and not feeling understood or even believed led to the suicide of these survivors of ritual abuse? Would we or could we see the shroud of mystery surrounding this issue come down a bit and have people step forward in truth. I understand that our society is not prepared for truly understanding what they could. I ask you all to keep an open mind if you have not been through something like ritual abuse, but most importantly, I ask for your help. Please help me understand. In the goodness of your heart, please open up and give me some information on this matter. Thanks

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Posted (edited)

Hello,

Where to start, first I am sorry to hear about all the ordeals you had gone through and possibly still dealing with today, my sympathies and love go out to you. I am hear if you ever do wish to talk about your past. There is a lot on ritualistic occult, first you must narrow down which type exactly religious as in the church themselves and if so what type of church, Catholic..more closely related to the pope or further out. Does it have to do with the vampiric community? Gothic commuinity? Projects like Montauk. Military? Or a combination. I cannot just start talking about ten billion things as once, I would have quiet a bit of information to give you. Please inbox me so I know what you specifically want to know, thanks for starting the thread!

Best wishes

Ciao Ciao

PS Sexual abuse very common in such cases unfortuantly

Edited by puridalan

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Hya Stardustmeggie and welcome to UM. Really sorry to hear about your troubles, I can only reiterate what Puridalan has said but add that you are very brave to come here and try and udnerstand this thing rather than burying it in the depths of your psyche.

This might help you if you haven't clome across it already. Also, you might want to check out american-buddha to read other stories of abuse and mind control.

http://ritualabuse.us/ritualabuse/ra-links/resource-list-part-one/

There was a guy called Sir Richard Francis Burton who wrote many works but one was on pederasty. He was the first secret agent they say and he uncovered widespread ritual abuse of young boys in Persia and he tied it to ritual magick. I know it is hard to believe but there is a tradition amongst the occult that traces this kind of sexual abuse all the way back to Egypt and Sumer. I don't know if that is true but it is likely that it went as far back as Greece and Rome. Hope this has given you some more things to look into.

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First of all, thank you for the information both SlimJim 22 and Puridalan. I appreciate it. I should make a few things clear here. Yes, I have also heard of some of the information you both have sent me and have gotten into literature on the occult as well. What I first must make clear is that my experience did not involve sexual abuse Thank goodness, but it did involve some strong psychological abuse. In fact, I should make it clear that my story is in no way even close to that of others who I have heard about who have gone through child ritual sexual abuse and witnessing other serious violent crimes. The greatest infliction causes by my personal experience was indeed felt in the spiritual realm, for a I suffered from much confusion on my own beliefs and faith and spent the following three years with major sleeping problems, nightmares, and night terrors. There are also things that I do not recall because it has been so long since the incident occured and my memory has faded. Again, thank you both for providing me more info. What I truly am seeking here in this forum at this time is also to understand what the sybolism was in the ceremony that I was made to attend (and really had to choice actually). This more than an anything I want answered because although I have some very basic knowledge on occult/cult/religious matters, although I am not involved in these things and do not understand the actual symbolic nature behind this experience of mine. The event occured when I was 12. It was a camp that I attended for young boys and girls for about 5 days during the summer out in a wooded isolated area. It involved being told we had a mission to God that needed to be completed and us children would find out when the time arrived. The boys and girls were in different camps. It involved being awakened very late at night,lined up and blind folded, and a journey in the dark through the woods (obviously I know this because we had to walk back OUT of the woods with out the blind folds when the ceremony was complete and back to our cabins to go back to sleep). This was what truly bothered me deep down. I had no idea where I was being led or what the hell was going on. All I knew is that some of the other girls were crying and so obviously I was not the only one who had an issue with this. We were told, this is God's way and to not fear because God is with you through the darkness. Then we arrived at a place in the woods where we each were allowed to remove our blind folds. When I say we I mean just us girls at the camp. We had no idea what the boys were doing or where they even were because they too were told they had a mission to God to complete as well. Anyways, we arrived at a place in the woods where we each circles around candles that were in the circle on the ground. Someone (identity unkown) came into the circle with a rope and hood over his/her head where you could not see. They were holding a book and began to cite a prayer. We were all made to recite this prayer back to them. Another strange thing about this was that there was some kind of cross lying against what appeared to be some kind of wall or pile of rocks. In fact, this is perhaps the strangest part of my memory. The cross sitting there seemed odd, almost out place or context or something. Anyways, the prayer was done and we all retreated back to camp and received these raggers/scarfs. I wish so badly I could be looking at it right as I write this and tell you exactly what was on it but I do not have it any more. It was layered it this very detailed arrangement of various circles, triangles, and so forth. It was a very neat design, but as you can tell I feel like a clueless dumb blond right now. I have no idea what any of it meant, if in fact it meant anything at all. I hope this story helps. It is the best I can do for now. Much of my memory has gone away completely on this event. After it occured, I felt almost in trance and for the next three years or so, as I already mentioned, I had horrible night terrors, sleeping problems and everything. I may not be highly trained and well researched in these kind of matters, but what I can say is that something always, always, felt wrong about the whole thing. If you have anything further to add to this, please feel free.

stardustmeggie

Hya Stardustmeggie and welcome to UM. Really sorry to hear about your troubles, I can only reiterate what Puridalan has said but add that you are very brave to come here and try and udnerstand this thing rather than burying it in the depths of your psyche.

This might help you if you haven't clome across it already. Also, you might want to check out american-buddha to read other stories of abuse and mind control.

http://ritualabuse.us/ritualabuse/ra-links/resource-list-part-one/

There was a guy called Sir Richard Francis Burton who wrote many works but one was on pederasty. He was the first secret agent they say and he uncovered widespread ritual abuse of young boys in Persia and he tied it to ritual magick. I know it is hard to believe but there is a tradition amongst the occult that traces this kind of sexual abuse all the way back to Egypt and Sumer. I don't know if that is true but it is likely that it went as far back as Greece and Rome. Hope this has given you some more things to look into.

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Posted (edited)

Hello everyone. This is my fist time on this forum and I hope that by coming to this forum I can get some further comments or insights into an issue that I have been researching quite a bit already. If not, then hopefully one of you can point me in the right direction. This new post that I have started is about ritual abuse. While people such as counselors, social workers, and law enforcement all claim to have come across individuals making the claim of some kind of ritualistic abuse, others doubt the existence of such alleged crimes and even question the very meaning of "ritual abuse". You may be asking yourself, why is she so interested with this and where is this going? Well truth be told, as a child I did in fact go through a traumatic event that took me many years to process and deal with. It causes me psychological grief and spiritual confusion. I wish not to give the details, but this experience was very bizzare, frigthening, and rittualistic in nature. Now please hear me out on this first. This story is not to make accusations against any specific religious group or even those involved in occultic type belief systems. I am merely trying to understand this personal experience, which was forced upon me against my will and in isolation. If someone comes to this forum with knowledge regrading this matter, and education in things such as religious cults, Occult activities and symbols, etc than I would openly dicuss this matter with them to gain a better understanding. Like I already stated, I am not trying make any false claims or accusations on any group of people. Furthermore, I must also point out that in my research I discovered that it has often been said that children and adults coming forth with their stories have not been believed or are going through some kind of False Memory Syndrome, which to me is BS. Imagine for a moment going through a strange and rare experience that seems to be ignored by a society and shrouded in inpenetrable mystery, only to be riducled and never believed. And what if these experiences by these other people were completely true and real and not feeling understood or even believed led to the suicide of these survivors of ritual abuse? Would we or could we see the shroud of mystery surrounding this issue come down a bit and have people step forward in truth. I understand that our society is not prepared for truly understanding what they could. I ask you all to keep an open mind if you have not been through something like ritual abuse, but most importantly, I ask for your help. Please help me understand. In the goodness of your heart, please open up and give me some information on this matter. Thanks

False Memory Syndrome happens. People doing the interview subconsicously or on purpose implant ideas in the heads of fantasy prone children. If you really do some research, there has been very little to no case of ritual abuse that is proved to be real. Thats a fact.

Not saying you are lying but I choose to think differently. Proof is a wonderful thing since there too many ofther options.

Edited by The Skeptic Eric Raven

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Stardustmeggie,

I have read your story and I feel sorry that you went through something so disturbing. I don't know much on the occult, but a cross on a pile of stones could be related to a number of different belief systems, especially if it wasn't a "Christian" cross. You said it was some kind of cross, so I am guessing that it wasn't the usual crucifixion form or you would of probably recognized it. Perhaps, it was just some kind of Pagan (although paganism is polytheistic) or occult ritual that the people who were orchestrating the "get together" imposed on you. Although, if they were making many references to "god" these people could very well of been radical Christians of a little known sect. There are many possibilities, I'm afraid.

Like JonathonVonErich said, false memories can be created from inference or causing doubt in one's mind. I'm not saying that what you describe is a false memory, but I think you should give it some thought. Perhaps, through the years, your memory influenced your perception of these events and turned them into something a little different. Even if a memory happens to be false, the hurt and suffering it can cause is just as real as if it was true. Again, I'm just putting it out there.

If I were you, I would ask parents, old relatives, or find one of the girls who went to the same place that night. Perhaps, they might remember some details that you don't and could give you real answers.

Best of Luck,

H.H. Holmes

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...there has been very little to no case of ritual abuse that is proved to be real. Thats a fact.

It's a fact? I'm pretty certain it is known that ritual abuse has occurred in the past and still exists in the present - which leaves me wondering how you've come to the conclusion quoted above.

Stardustmeggie - I don't really know what to make of your story. All I can say is that there are some messed up people and evils that exist in this world.

Mind me asking how old you were when this took place and where it happened?

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It's a fact? I'm pretty certain it is known that ritual abuse has occurred in the past and still exists in the present - which leaves me wondering how you've come to the conclusion quoted above.

Stardustmeggie - I don't really know what to make of your story. All I can say is that there are some messed up people and evils that exist in this world.

Mind me asking how old you were when this took place and where it happened?

She said in her second post that she was twelve when the event took place.

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Hello Silver, yes I will answer the additional questions you have asked of me. I think I already told my age in the actual story part that I posted but I will state it again, I was about 12 years of age. Also, for those who are a bit skeptical of what I have shared, I can only say one thing to you. I am not making this up. While I understand that the human memory can fade in time and have its imperfections, what I told you were my memories and I my mother can even prove that I had that rager I spoke about because she saw it. Every time I looked at it afterwards, I was reminded of this event. Like I said, I wish I could explain more but the majority of my memories on this event are now gone. Well, at least it seems like there are some who believe me on this forum and understand that I am not making this up. To finish answering your question Silver, I am pretty certain that this was still in Indiana. Here is why I am saying this. The summer this occured, my father had his court ordered visitation with my brother and I (no my brother was not at the camp because my father did not make him go). I was always in some kind of children's camp growing up as my father moved around alot to different states and was always busy with his business trips and so forth, so he just sent me off to camp all the time. During my visitation the summer this happened he lived outside of Indianapolis, in the area of Greenville. Of course, when he took me off to camp for the first day it was quite a drive, probably an hour or so therefore I cannot recall if we were still in Indiana or not come to think of it. What I can do is get a hold of my father. I will do that. I will give him a phone call or shoot him an email and he can tell me the exact location of the camp site. Okay?

Thanks,

stardustmeggie

It's a fact? I'm pretty certain it is known that ritual abuse has occurred in the paast and still exists in the present - which leaves me wondering how you've come to the conclusion quoted above.

Stardustmeggie - I don't really know what to make of your story. All I can say is that there are some messed up people and evils that exist in this world.

Mind me asking how old you were when this took place and where it happened?

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To finish answering your question Silver, I am pretty certain that this was still in Indiana. Here is why I am saying this. The summer this occured, my father had his court ordered visitation with my brother and I (no my brother was not at the camp because my father did not make him go). I was always in some kind of children's camp growing up as my father moved around alot to different states and was always busy with his business trips and so forth, so he just sent me off to camp all the time. During my visitation the summer this happened he lived outside of Indianapolis, in the area of Greenville. Of course, when he took me off to camp for the first day it was quite a drive, probably an hour or so therefore I cannot recall if we were still in Indiana or not come to think of it.

What an interesting coincidence, because I know of a place that has some similarities to the camp you are talking about. I live around the Indianapolis area and I have an uncle who travels every summer to a Christian kids camp. He says it's about a little over an hour from where we live, so that fits the description that you gave, at least when it comes to the distance. At the camp they do hiking, camping, games, entertainment, and prayer groups. I can't recall the name of the place, though, but I can ask my uncle what it is for you.

P.S. I believe in your story and I didn't mean to debase your claims about what happened to you as a child. I was just pointing out some things to consider just in case you hadn't before.

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That could be the same camp, but there is no way to know 100 percent unless I have more detailed info. There could be more than one camp in that area, who knows.

stardustmeggie

What an interesting coincidence, because I know of a place that has some similarities to the camp you are talking about. I live around the Indianapolis area and I have an uncle who travels every summer to a Christian kids camp. He says it's about a little over an hour from where we live, so that fits the description that you gave, at least when it comes to the distance. At the camp they do hiking, camping, games, entertainment, and prayer groups. I can't recall the name of the place, though, but I can ask my uncle what it is for you.

P.S. I believe in your story and I didn't mean to debase your claims about what happened to you as a child. I was just pointing out some things to consider just in case you hadn't before.

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Also, it has been quite awhile since this happened. Let's see. I am 27. This happened when I was 12. So about 1995

That could be the same camp, but there is no way to know 100 percent unless I have more detailed info. There could be more than one camp in that area, who knows.

stardustmeggie

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stardustmeggie,

I will ask my uncle about the camp he goes to tomorrow, since he isn't available right now. What kind of details would you like exactly?

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You certainly could ask him about this if he happens to know something about my experience back then. I would welcome that. Of course, we muist remember that until I speak with my father to get the exact location and info from the camp we do not know 100% for sure if the camp your uncle is going to is the same one from my experience. But please do ask him about this anyways. I would appreciate that greatly. You never know, maybe this is the beggining of some kind of truth. I hope that what you get is not meant with any kind of denial because I am not going to say this camp experience of mine did not happen when it did. Let's think about another thing here, if this camp I went to discussed God and was Christian oriented then what did this whole late night ceremony have to do with a "mission to God" in a Christian sense. Do you understand what I am asking? I will tell you something and I mean it with all my heart. I would not care anyways if it was called Christian, or a a Buddhist camp, whatever. The important point is that it was completely uncalled for, psychologically abusive in many ways, and in matters of spirit and the heart, not what I would say was something of the Lord. This I can tell you. It is interesting that such an event would challenge me spiritually in many ways. As I was growing up my mother sat me down and had the most incredibly discussions on spiritual matters, especially things such as compassion and discernment. What I felt when I left that camp that night was a darkness that entered inside of me deep down and I have felt it ever since. So just to let you know, I appreciate your kindness and would love it for you to speak with your uncle but you must keep in mind that my spritual teaching growing up was that the message of the Lord is written in the heart and understood in spirit, regardless of the titles that man gives. Someone merely calling themselves Christian means nothing to me. If they uphold the truth then there would be no reason for them to deny this experience I had. That case being made, they would have some serious explaining to do. Thanks again

stardustmeggie

ps. I have no reason to feel ashamed of what I feel is the truth but I will say this from my intuition: If your uncle is to ask this camp questions, ask him to ask them in GENERAL terms, what kinds of religious activities are involved at the camp. He can mention something like, "Do you hold any particular religious events". I do not give permission though for him to tell my story verbatim if he goes to this camp and asks. I am sorry, both you and I know not what we are getting involved in here. What happened happened. It is always a word of caution to consider matters of spritual warfare in the things you do. So like I said, just have him ask carefully and generally.

stardustmeggie,

I will ask my uncle about the camp he goes to tomorrow, since he isn't available right now. What kind of details would you like exactly?

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You certainly could ask him about this if he happens to know something about my experience back then. I would welcome that. Of course, we muist remember that until I speak with my father to get the exact location and info from the camp we do not know 100% for sure if the camp your uncle is going to is the same one from my experience. But please do ask him about this anyways. I would appreciate that greatly. You never know, maybe this is the beggining of some kind of truth. I hope that what you get is not meant with any kind of denial because I am not going to say this camp experience of mine did not happen when it did. Let's think about another thing here, if this camp I went to discussed God and was Christian oriented then what did this whole late night ceremony have to do with a "mission to God" in a Christian sense. Do you understand what I am asking? I will tell you something and I mean it with all my heart. I would not care anyways if it was called Christian, or a a Buddhist camp, whatever. The important point is that it was completely uncalled for, psychologically abusive in many ways, and in matters of spirit and the heart, not what I would say was something of the Lord. This I can tell you. It is interesting that such an event would challenge me spiritually in many ways. As I was growing up my mother sat me down and had the most incredibly discussions on spiritual matters, especially things such as compassion and discernment. What I felt when I left that camp that night was a darkness that entered inside of me deep down and I have felt it ever since. So just to let you know, I appreciate your kindness and would love it for you to speak with your uncle but you must keep in mind that my spritual teaching growing up was that the message of the Lord is written in the heart and understood in spirit, regardless of the titles that man gives. Someone merely calling themselves Christian means nothing to me. If they uphold the truth then there would be no reason for them to deny this experience I had. That case being made, they would have some serious explaining to do. Thanks again

stardustmeggie

ps. I have no reason to feel ashamed of what I feel is the truth but I will say this from my intuition: If your uncle is to ask this camp questions, ask him to ask them in GENERAL terms, what kinds of religious activities are involved at the camp. He can mention something like, "Do you hold any particular religious events". I do not give permission though for him to tell my story verbatim if he goes to this camp and asks. I am sorry, both you and I know not what we are getting involved in here. What happened happened. It is always a word of caution to consider matters of spritual warfare in the things you do. So like I said, just have him ask carefully and generally.

I will follow the advice you gave me and I won't give out your story verbatim. I will be as careful as possible about how I ask him these questions, but whether he knows anything about your experience is not a guarantee. I can find out some general information about the camp, such as whether it has woods around it or if any kind of special activities go on. I will try to be discreet when asking him about the activities that go down inside the camp. My uncle is an honest person, so I believe that if he did know anything out of the ordinary he would speak up, at least to those who run the place. I don't believe he has been going there since the summer of 95', unfortunately, but he can at least give a layout and description of the place.

Best wishes,

H.H. Holmes

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First stardustmeggie, let me say hello and welcome to UM. I've been reading your story and I can see why this would upset you so much. Why would someone lead a bunch of young girls blindfolded into the woods for a ceremony of some Christian faith. Trust yourself to God. This doesn't sound right. You talk about the cross and candles in a circle of some kind. And a person wearing a hood and a rope. Is there anything else you can remember? How many nights was this done to you and the others (remember you're not alone in this) and do you remember what happened then?

HH Holmes makes some good points. Can you remember the names of any of the other children who went to camp that summer, boys or girls? Perhaps your father can tell you if they came from your area. I hope HH is able to help you find the camp you went to. How did you end up at this camp to begin with? Your father's church, a neighbors suggestion?

Good luck to you in your search and take care.

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Okay. Sounds good. Puridalan has been very helpful to me as well with info that I had never thought about. Good. That was the whole point about coming out on this issue was for better understanding. Thanks again.

stardustmeggie

I will follow the advice you gave me and I won't give out your story verbatim. I will be as careful as possible about how I ask him these questions, but whether he knows anything about your experience is not a guarantee. I can find out some general information about the camp, such as whether it has woods around it or if any kind of special activities go on. I will try to be discreet when asking him about the activities that go down inside the camp. My uncle is an honest person, so I believe that if he did know anything out of the ordinary he would speak up, at least to those who run the place. I don't believe he has been going there since the summer of 95', unfortunately, but he can at least give a layout and description of the place.

Best wishes,

H.H. Holmes

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It's a fact? I'm pretty certain it is known that ritual abuse has occurred in the past and still exists in the present - which leaves me wondering how you've come to the conclusion quoted above.

Stardustmeggie - I don't really know what to make of your story. All I can say is that there are some messed up people and evils that exist in this world.

Mind me asking how old you were when this took place and where it happened?

Why don't you look it up? There has been in depth investigation done on this and very littly evidence has ever been found to prove it.

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Posted (edited)

Gathered in solemn silence in the open-to-the-woods chapel, the other 10-, 11- and 12-year old girls and I registered the head counselor’s serious tone. “Blindfolds on,” she said, and other counselors covered our eyes. My little cotton bandana smelled sweetly of detergent and fabric softener, laced with a chemical tang: the permanent marking pen that labeled all my belongings. In my memory, I can also smell the scent of my own excitement. Not fear, no;

more the flavor of anticipation edged with mystery.

“Let’s go.” The lead counselor’s whisper commanded, almost inaudible under cicada drone, creaking crickets and frogs. Night’s symphony from the woodland ridge penetrated the camp’s chapel, high on a ridge above the small lake. Strung together, hand-to-hand and bandana-blind, we young campers stumbled off the chapel’s plank floor and onto the rocky trail that led on up the ridge. Safely guided by our trusted counselors, we climbed to the secret, sacred grove called Ragger Point.

I have little experience of formal initiation in my life. My induction into the Ragger Society at the YMCA’s Camp Gravois – once near Missouri’s Lake of the Ozarks – was my first. The ceremony impressed me: that blindfolded walk to the secret location; the solemn challenge, “Will you make the commitment of the Blue Rag?” whispered in my ear; the candle-lit camp emblem laid out in tree trunks and boulders and revealed when I was allowed to remove my blindfold. The honor-system of the society allowed me to decide each year whether I had kept the oath made the year before and could move on to the next color of Rag – from blue to silver, silver to brown…all the way to white. The three-corner scarf that was each year’s Rag was knotted around my neck by a counselor I loved and revered, in a special knot that was never to be undone; a symbol of my commitment and my connection to others who made that same pledge. All these traditions – the ceremony, self-accountability, and symbolism – turned a simple but powerful camp program into a ritual of initiation…initiation of a new pattern in my soul.

Source.

More info on: The YMCA's Raggers Society.

Edited by Tiggs

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I think skepticism is good, it provides a necessary balance to things. I personally think, however, and this is my opinion alone. To say ritual abuse doesn't exist, it doesn't happen and it's always so called FMS. That is a claim I feel takes more blind faith to stand behind than it does to say ritual abuse happens. Can any rational person actually say that, with all the things that do happen in the world that are far more twisted and strange, NOWHERE are people abused in some sort of ritualist fashion. How about the video from Morroco (I think) where the hunchbacked boy is ripped apart by horses in front of a group of men who are stimulating themselves. This was part of a religious form of ceremony (see the Urban Legend thread on Snuff Films). That film is proven real, it was part of a ritual or ceremony, but that is not ritual abuse? Just because people say "this doesn't happen" does not mean that is the case. Do you really think someone arrested on allegations of abuse of children or such is gonna look at an officer or judge and say, "Why sure, I raped them and beat them, and Oh yeah! I did while I was worshipping Satan!" It's so easy just to dismiss something uncomfortable as not happening, but that is an insult and slap in the face to anyone who HAS been ritualistically abused...even if that is only one person in the country. It's pretty flippin real to them, regardless of what so called experts on investigators say

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Posted (edited)

I think skepticism is good, it provides a necessary balance to things. I personally think, however, and this is my opinion alone. To say ritual abuse doesn't exist, it doesn't happen and it's always so called FMS. That is a claim I feel takes more blind faith to stand behind than it does to say ritual abuse happens. Can any rational person actually say that, with all the things that do happen in the world that are far more twisted and strange, NOWHERE are people abused in some sort of ritualist fashion. How about the video from Morroco (I think) where the hunchbacked boy is ripped apart by horses in front of a group of men who are stimulating themselves. This was part of a religious form of ceremony (see the Urban Legend thread on Snuff Films). That film is proven real, it was part of a ritual or ceremony, but that is not ritual abuse? Just because people say "this doesn't happen" does not mean that is the case. Do you really think someone arrested on allegations of abuse of children or such is gonna look at an officer or judge and say, "Why sure, I raped them and beat them, and Oh yeah! I did while I was worshipping Satan!" It's so easy just to dismiss something uncomfortable as not happening, but that is an insult and slap in the face to anyone who HAS been ritualistically abused...even if that is only one person in the country. It's pretty flippin real to them, regardless of what so called experts on investigators say

So you want to believe every claim made by people on this site? I never said it has never happened. I said there is very little evidence to suggest systematic ritual abuse occurs. You say its so easy to dismiss, because its uncomfortable. I say its easy to dismiss when there is no evidence. A random claim on a internet site does not mean its real.Sorry.

Edited by The Skeptic Eric Raven

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Hello Aeneid. You have made some very valid points that I would hope others would think about. There is something else I would like to add since I was the one who began this topic in the first place. I suppose I can get into it a little while I am learning more from Puridalan and from the other guy who will be talking to his uncle for me out my camp experience. Anyways, this is off topic but very interesing. I would like it if you all could go online to a website for me. It is incredibly bizzare and terrifying if there is truth behind any of it with the Illuninati. Type into your search "Svali Speaks". Someone sent this link to me and that is how I found out about it. It is by a women who calls herself Svali. Now before I continue let me make this clear: I UNDERSTAND their is no PROOF behind these claims other, but then again these things are very possible and it is not like anyone can prove that it DOESN't exist. So just read the story of Svali and tell me what you think. She claims to be an ex-illuminati programmer. She uses Svali because she claims she must keep her identity safe because the issue is so serious that it could threaten her very life. As I received this link from a friend, I carefully read each and every article and interview with her, sometimes two or three times because I was trying to be rational and look for what might appear to be INCONSISTENCIES in her story or other problems that seemed fake. When I got done with her story about witnessing about the years from very early childhood of very severe mind control, sexual and physcial abuse, and dealing with severe dissasociation, I was in tears. I felt part disbelief of the possible evil of some humans, as well just shock and horror. According to Svali, she must me tremendously safe for fear of her life. The way she has basically put this is the truth of why our society cannot penetrate the secrets of this group is complicated but very possible. Illuninati groups are I guess supposed to keep much of what they do within their family blood line, first. Second, they are WEALTHY VERY WEALTHY AND WELL EDUCATED. Third, their money and connections allows them to do activities and things you and I cannot imgagine possible. Fourth, they ALMOST NEVER RECRUIT OUTSIDE THEIR INNER CIRCLE. In other words, good luck getting anywhere near them for us "Sheep" as Svali claims. In other words, this is not like just every day people being inviated into the beggining levels of the Masonics. They are higher then that. Fifth, they are highly secretive and mind control programming begins at a very young age to deny or at least lie about their existence. Sixth, like I said before, they are well educated in multiple areas, including military, child development and behaviral psychololgy, the Occult, etc. Seventh, they believe their training is out of love and that they are the intellectual "Enlightened" ones to rule over others. So to know more, please read everything carefully at "Svali Speaks". Of course, it also helps to have some knowledge on dissasociation, traums based mind control, and so forth in order to understand any of this. My story was real and upset me in my own ways, but in my situation described above I also understand that we are talking more about every day people who are either misguided as to what true Christianity in spirit and mind is, or just other every day people with some serious issues. Svali's story on the other hand is not only in a different ballpark then my experience, but a different dam universe. I found this info about Svali interesting but I am in NO WAY COMPARING my story to hers. This would not be possible and I would never dare make any connection. Please understand this and read her site and story if you have not already.

stardustmeggie

I think skepticism is good, it provides a necessary balance to things. I personally think, however, and this is my opinion alone. To say ritual abuse doesn't exist, it doesn't happen and it's always so called FMS. That is a claim I feel takes more blind faith to stand behind than it does to say ritual abuse happens. Can any rational person actually say that, with all the things that do happen in the world that are far more twisted and strange, NOWHERE are people abused in some sort of ritualist fashion. How about the video from Morroco (I think) where the hunchbacked boy is ripped apart by horses in front of a group of men who are stimulating themselves. This was part of a religious form of ceremony (see the Urban Legend thread on Snuff Films). That film is proven real, it was part of a ritual or ceremony, but that is not ritual abuse? Just because people say "this doesn't happen" does not mean that is the case. Do you really think someone arrested on allegations of abuse of children or such is gonna look at an officer or judge and say, "Why sure, I raped them and beat them, and Oh yeah! I did while I was worshipping Satan!" It's so easy just to dismiss something uncomfortable as not happening, but that is an insult and slap in the face to anyone who HAS been ritualistically abused...even if that is only one person in the country. It's pretty flippin real to them, regardless of what so called experts on investigators say

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There are many similarities in our stories Tiggs. Who knows, it could have been the same camp. I cannot recall. But I think the most important part though is the difference in our attitudes toward the experience. You seem as though you were excited and had no fear. You also mention that you felt like you trusted your camp counselors. Perhaps you just perceived your experience differently than I did mine but that is certainly not how I felt. I did in fact we as though my camp experience described above was against my will. It was. Secondly, something did feel wrong and dark about the situation. I mean what can I say, if you did not feel bothered by it then Okay. But such is not the case for me. Then again, I shared more of my story whereas you have only some small glimpses into the whole ragger society ceremonies. So I do not really know more detail from your post either. Anyways, if the camp claimed to be Christian, then all I can say is that what they were doing that night and the way it was done did not feel Christian and Godly to me. Sorry

stardustmeggie

Gathered in solemn silence in the open-to-the-woods chapel, the other 10-, 11- and 12-year old girls and I registered the head counselor’s serious tone. “Blindfolds on,” she said, and other counselors covered our eyes. My little cotton bandana smelled sweetly of detergent and fabric softener, laced with a chemical tang: the permanent marking pen that labeled all my belongings. In my memory, I can also smell the scent of my own excitement. Not fear, no;

more the flavor of anticipation edged with mystery.

“Let’s go.” The lead counselor’s whisper commanded, almost inaudible under cicada drone, creaking crickets and frogs. Night’s symphony from the woodland ridge penetrated the camp’s chapel, high on a ridge above the small lake. Strung together, hand-to-hand and bandana-blind, we young campers stumbled off the chapel’s plank floor and onto the rocky trail that led on up the ridge. Safely guided by our trusted counselors, we climbed to the secret, sacred grove called Ragger Point.

I have little experience of formal initiation in my life. My induction into the Ragger Society at the YMCA’s Camp Gravois – once near Missouri’s Lake of the Ozarks – was my first. The ceremony impressed me: that blindfolded walk to the secret location; the solemn challenge, “Will you make the commitment of the Blue Rag?” whispered in my ear; the candle-lit camp emblem laid out in tree trunks and boulders and revealed when I was allowed to remove my blindfold. The honor-system of the society allowed me to decide each year whether I had kept the oath made the year before and could move on to the next color of Rag – from blue to silver, silver to brown…all the way to white. The three-corner scarf that was each year’s Rag was knotted around my neck by a counselor I loved and revered, in a special knot that was never to be undone; a symbol of my commitment and my connection to others who made that same pledge. All these traditions – the ceremony, self-accountability, and symbolism – turned a simple but powerful camp program into a ritual of initiation…initiation of a new pattern in my soul.

Source.

More info on: The YMCA's Raggers Society.

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Posted (edited)

There are many similarities in our stories Tiggs. Who knows, it could have been the same camp. I cannot recall. But I think the most important part though is the difference in our attitudes toward the experience. You seem as though you were excited and had no fear. You also mention that you felt like you trusted your camp counselors. Perhaps you just perceived your experience differently than I did mine but that is certainly not how I felt. I did in fact we as though my camp experience described above was against my will. It was. Secondly, something did feel wrong and dark about the situation. I mean what can I say, if you did not feel bothered by it then Okay. But such is not the case for me. Then again, I shared more of my story whereas you have only some small glimpses into the whole ragger society ceremonies. So I do not really know more detail from your post either. Anyways, if the camp claimed to be Christian, then all I can say is that what they were doing that night and the way it was done did not feel Christian and Godly to me. Sorry

stardustmeggie

It's not my story (I live in England) - just the story of someone who had been through a similar experience to you.

Does this look familiar, at all?

Raggersm.gif

or maybe this?

s_291d029b55df96b1f1747b900bb5ffe6.jpg

The YMCA have many, many summer camps. If you follow the last link on my first post, you'll see that several hundred thousand youngsters have been through the same thing. You'll also find a lot more detail on the ritual.

It's not surprising you felt the way you did if you didn't know what was happening. You were only twelve, and being blindfolded and led through a forest in the dark, followed by an initiation ceremony (no matter how well-intended) would be a pretty traumatic experience.

Truth is - I'm not aware of any cults that give out souvenir raggers at the end of secret rituals. It's not really a secret cult like thing to do, if you think about it. If the camp you went to was a YMCA camp - then this is probably what happened.

Hopefully, knowing that, will help you understand and come to terms with something which, from your perspective, would have been a terrifying experience.

Edited by Tiggs

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Hello again Tiggs. I did go the website you gave above. Thank you. This is what I discovered. Yes, this looked almost exactly like the ragger that I had come to think about it I went to the YMCA during the daytime only during my visitations with my father and then towards the end of the day he would come pick me up, however, he would have had to register through YMCA I went to during the day in order to sign up for this 5 day camp out further from where he lived. The one in my experience. So yes those raggers look almost identical so I think it would have had to have been this camp and since I lost the rag I must have fogotten that it was in fact the YMCA. Okay, that being said, in the next day or so I am going to call the exact YMCA, get more info, and start my own little investigation. I just spoke with my mother and she told me that after I came back from experience I also had very bad panic attacks, along with the night terrors and sleeping problems. She said I really was having some issues after it occoured. Like I stated before, this was done against my will and if they gave further info to my father about what was supposed to take place at the camp, then I was left in the dark and had no idea. And I repeat the same thing again. Your friend may have not had a problem with it but I did. It could just be two different reactions, but then I specifically recall as one of my clearest memories, other girls crying. So apparently I was not the only one who had an issue. It could be that your friend and I have two different feelings or it is very possible that I much more developed intuition and spiritual discernment than your friend does and this is why I know in the bottom of my heart that something was wrong about the whole thing. Let's examine a few things shall we. I do recall the ragger I received being blue as well. Below this email I am going to paste a poem that is suppsoed to go along as the meaning for this ragger. When you are done reading it, first answer to yourself some questions: 1. What the hell does this poem, or anything in the ceremony for that matter have to do with Christianity, God and Christ? Since the YMCA is supposed to be christian and apparently the camp too. 2. Read this poem and ask yourself, who is this being directed to and what is supposed to me the meaning behind it. Okay, we were children and little girls here, not repenting old men. And I mean that sincerely. If you read it, does it not seem to indicate someone writing on behalf of their own projection and guilt. What is that about? What is the connection between this poem and anything with the ceremony. Also, the brown ragger has a biblical phrase from Corinthians. Read this over and over again carefully and ask yourself similar questions. None of this makes alot of sense even to me and my mother had conversations with me as a little girl about the bible and spiritual things that were quite advanced for a younger girl. Here is the Poem that goes with the Blue Ragger:

Blue Rag:by, Edgar Guest

I have to live with myself, and so

I want to be fit for myself to know,

I want to be able as days go by,

Always to look myself straight in the eye;

I don't want to stand with the setting sun,

And hate myself for the things I've done.

I don't want to keep on a closet shelf,

A lot of secerts about myself,

And fool myself, as I come and go,

Into thinking that nobody else will know

The kind of man that I really am;

I don't want to dress myself up in sham.

I want to go wut with my head erect,

I want to deserve all men's respect,

But here in the struggle for fame and pelf,

I want to be able to like myself.

I don't want to look at myself and know

THat I'm bluster and bluff and empty show.

I never can hide myself from me;

I see what others may never see;

I know what others may never know;

I never can fool myself, and so,

Whatever happens, I want to be

Self-respecting and conscience free.

It's not my story (I live in England) - just the story of someone who had been through a similar experience to you.

Does this look familiar, at all?

Raggersm.gif

or maybe this?

s_291d029b55df96b1f1747b900bb5ffe6.jpg

The YMCA have many, many summer camps. If you follow the last link on my first post, you'll see that several hundred thousand youngsters have been through the same thing. You'll also find a lot more detail on the ritual.

It's not surprising you felt the way you did if you didn't know what was happening. You were only twelve, and being blindfolded and led through a forest in the dark, followed by an initiation ceremony (no matter how well-intended) would be a pretty traumatic experience.

Truth is - I'm not aware of any cults that give out souvenir raggers at the end of secret rituals. It's not really a secret cult like thing to do, if you think about it. If the camp you went to was a YMCA camp - then this is probably what happened.

Hopefully, knowing that, will help you understand and come to terms with something which, from your perspective, would have been a terrifying experience.

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