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odinsgrl

Go forth and procreate

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(I have posted this topic here, because of the Christian doctrine, that states, "Go forth and procreate", which I find as the number one cause of the topic about to be discussed. If any of the MODS feel that it should be moved, feel free to do so.)

My beliefs are pretty well known here, at UM. If not, just look down at my sig. Lol. Anyway, I wanted to bring up a topic, very near and dear to my, and my friends' hearts.

As we see it, the number one problem facing the world today, is overpopulation. Overpopulation has caused the plundering of natural resorces faster, and faster, each year. Starvation of families in many countries, simply because there isn't enough food to feed them all. The tearing down of beautiful lands, to make room for more people and to expand cities. The overcrowding of orphanages. So, many problems that could probably be fixed, if people would use thier head.

One of the docrines of Christian faith is, Go Forth and Procreate. And while that may have been good for people back in the day, when the Earth was sparsely populated, but today I don't think it needs to be followed as much as it once was. I recently saw a story, here in my hometown paper, where this woman had just given birth to her 11th child, and she was only 29! She told the paper, that it was "God's will" that she had all of these children, and she planned have some more! I guess "Gods Will", didn't include, letting her or her husband have any kind of job, or way to support these kids, because they didn't. And I'm not saying that I believe that lower income people shouldn't have children. Even the ones that can afford them, should tone it down as well!

I don't have kids. I don't want kids. I don't need kids. Everywhere I go, the bookstore, out to eat, even sitting in my own apartment. I see, hear, and smell them. And the parents that have these children, don't seem to care enough about them to disciple them, or spend any real time with them. Just look at the child abuse, child killings, and child abandonment! Its disgusting.

I hear, all the time- "Well, I'm a Woman, I have to have kids." or "The Church says I have to have children." I think thats a horrible way to think. People should have children out of love. If you love the child/ren you don't want them going without, or have to work three or four jobs and never be home with them. Not because some out of date, doctrine tells them to. Or just because of thier gender.

Now, don't take this post wrong. People have kids. And that's all well and good. But to have them, in an out of control fashion (10, 11, 15!) is just reckless and selfish, in my opinion. To have 1, 2, or 3 is a good pace. And if you want more, there are TONS of beautiful, unwanted children in the world, that are just begging for a good home.

That's my two cents. What do others think on this subject?

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I totally agree. As a matter of fact some friends and I were talking about it the other night. We came to the conclusion that all children must be "fixed" at birth. When they grow up, graduate, take parenting classes and have jobs than they can get it reversed.

Sock it to me time....

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Well I remember hearing lately that the birth rate is dropping here in Australia, because most young women these days are more interested in working and living their lives.

However, I see that and think, it cant be true, im 17 and I have 7 nieces and nephews (2/5 respectively), the oldest one is 8 and he was born when my eldest sister was 18.

Yesterday even, I was walking home from the shopping centre, and there was a girl at the park, infront of my house, who seemed to be my age who had a kid.

Sure the mature young women are getting jobs and setting up their life, but the imature ones are going out and getting drunk then waking up pregnant.

So they seem to be breeding for those who arent.

And their kids will grow up and be the same, so it creates a loop.

That creates the lower class which continues to multiply, whilst the upper and middle class dont breed as often.

I dont actually know of any cases of people having kids cos of religion, im sure it happens though, because some people are just that devout.

Personally, I dont want kids till im old enough to raisde them properly, if such a thing can be done.

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Urgh I have to agree with you on this one.I laugh at the people who seem to think because I choose to not have kids that in some way I`m being "Selfish" with my life.

If they in fact got to know me they would find out that I give alot to my godkids and am perfectly happy to live vicariously through other people`s loins.My other pet peeve is that I would love to adopt an older child but I do not have the adoption fees and because I`m common law I do not qualify.. At least not in my country.

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I, of course, agree. I do not believe that procreation is the 'meaning' to life. Sure, at a purely biological and survivalistic level, it is - but let's face it, we are not living in that kind of a world anymore.

I love children, and I wouldn't be shamed to have one of my own. However, I'm terribly saddened by the state of the children in this world, as you've so adequately described. Heck, it's the state of the parents that make it so terrible. Parents have begun to put love as a side dish and made 'making my kid like me' their main course. If the family unit falls apart like this, society will crumble steadily.

I do not think, like so many of my peers seem to, that marriage is a commitment to have children together. I do not think that married couples need to have children. I think having a child should be based on love and acceptance of responsibility, not on obligation to some power - whether it be God, State, lineage, husband, or mother.

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Agreed.

It's rather an odd coincidence that I found this thread today, because just a few hours earlier today a friend of mine was telling me about a family she knows with 11 kids - 4 of whom are adopted.

Why do people find it necessary to have so many kids? I'm talking about consenting married couples, I mean. I can't speak for the crackheads and drunk teenagers who end up pregnant. Why do intelligent, consenting adults desire to have so many kids?

Well, the family I heard about today is Catholic. Religion. Gah. I never understood Catholicism and the whole belief about contraception and how it's evil.

Does anyone here listen to the radio show Loveline here in the U.S.? I think Adam Carolla has some of the best philosophies on the matter of "screwballs" going out and having kids.

I read about a clinic in California where they paid drug addicts $50 to be fixed. The clinic directors were happy because the addicts didn't get pregnant and have screwed up kids, and the addicts were happy because they had money for drugs.

If someone truly wants to care for kids out of the goodness of their own heart, then why have 5 or 6 of his/her own? There are so many children without homes that need them, and if people think it's selfish of me to not have kids, I think it's selfish of them to have their own and ignore the overpopulation crisis we're facing.

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It makes me soo angry to hear of so many drug addicted children in the foster system or the older kids waiting to be adopted.No one seems to want them though....

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I don't know that it's the belief that it is "God's will" as much as it is female hormones. Maternal instincts tell most women that when they reach a certain age, that they must have a baby. However, I believe that the real source to overpopulation is for another reason. Men have hormones that tell them to make babies (women too, don't get me wrong) and ta-da! Babies.

Probably if only the people who wanted babies had babies, then we wouldn't be in such an overpopulated mess right now. Just remember kiddies, a quick trip to the drugstore first can save you many stinky diapers in the future!

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I think instead of worrying about over population, we should take a lesson from lemmings.

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I have been a foster parent for some years now.

I think that we have done a bit too much procreating for our own good. I have a skewed view on the matter as I tend to hear pretty horrible stories with the kids that I have had to deal with, but I think that some people should get snipped if they can't seem to control themselves.

If a person has the means to support and properly raise a large family, then they should be able to do so, unfortunately that is not always the case.

One of the mothers of a foster child we were watching had a total of 11 children, all of which were in foster care. The children were not all taken at once, she has had over 15 years of endless support(Each time a child is taken away, the mother has the legal right to lawyers, counseling, rehab, financial support...it goes on).

She would have a child and care for it for a few months, then she would end up getting arrested for one reason or another. After protective services goes into her home to collect the child while she is in jail, they find horrible conditions, drugs all over the house, signs of physical abuse... The kid gets put into foster care, the mom has 18 months of various forms of help. She would blow all of her court ordered requirements to be able to get the child back, so the child is adopted out after the 18 months. Problem is that she is already pregnant with her next child, and the cycle starts all over again...

11 kids, 10 different fathers(none of which want the kids either...) all at the ripe old age of 29.

If anyone should be forcibly fixed, she should be the first candidate...

There are just too many people having kids that don't want them, can't afford them, or know how to raise them correctly. If it were up to me I'd be putting something in the water that would make everyone sterile. Only when they have proven that they have the means to care for their children would they get the antidote...

You need a license to drive, a license to marry, a permit to build you own home for god sakes, but any yahoo can crank out kids and depend on everyone else to raise them? something is just not right there...

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11 kids, 10 different fathers(none of which want the kids either...) all at the ripe old age of 29.

If anyone should be forcibly fixed, she should be the first candidate...

There are just too many people having kids that don't want them, can't afford them, or know how to raise them correctly. If it were up to me I'd be putting something in the water that would make everyone sterile. Only when they have proven that they have the means to care for their children would they get the antidote...

You need a license to drive, a license to marry, a permit to build you own home for god sakes, but any yahoo can crank out kids and depend on everyone else to raise them? something is just not right there...

I agree with you in cases like this Fluffy...something is not right.

~

To start things off, my paternal grandmother gave birth to 16 kids, my maternal grandmother to 10. Out of my surviving aunts & uncles I now have 32 first cousins. w00t.gif

I don't think that it is religion that is causing over population, but rather several things.

Lack of education (particularly sex education)

Lack of available birth control.

Taking away a womens option to choose what she will do with her own body.

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I believe a system should go into effect. The one in china is a perfect example.

2 people = 1 kid.

Thats it.

Had a child with your first wife, and now want another? Tough

what was that movie... AI? get a license to have a baby, 1 per couple.. ever. Kid died? Oh well.. life sucks sometimes.

i agree 110% with Odinsgrl. I was one of the youngest people in NY ever to get fixed... I had to take a Docter to court to get it done, but it's done. Would i want a child? Sure.. if half the human race up and died. Otherwise, I'm not going to bring a life into this world only to have it live in todays society.

The world is in such a bad state, i sometimes wish for a world war, or a major natural disaster.. because the human race is choking the very earth that spawned us. The population went up by 2 billion in what? 15 years? thats insane, and it's uncalled for.

The simple fact that we can fix almost any ailment just leads to the problem..

Yes, mass breeding, and 11 kids was needed 150 years ago when 1/3 children died before the age of 10 in the US...

But now, we have people breaking the Age record every year..

I need to stop.. before i blow up..

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Having grown up in the Belt Buckle of the deep South, it was always customary to have house, yard, barn, full of kids. My mother, was the youngest of nine children. But it wasn't so much for religious reasons or the call of nature. It was because you needed all those free hands to work the damn farm! Thats why school was (and still is) let out during the summer months. So the children could go hoe the cotten. This was the way it was in much of rural america before almost all farms became industrialized. Not industrial revolution, I know in the South it kept up the children working on the farm well into the 60's. However, raising 10 kids in an appartemtn flat is completely different than raising 10 kids on a farm. My mother grew up in the 50's on a farm. And though, "they were so poor they didn't have a pot to p*** in" they always had plenty of food and acres of field to run around in. Where as in an urban setting, you have the sardine effect.

Of course now adays, this is no longer the case. And I agree with pretty much everything you said. I just wanted to put my 2 cents in. thumbsup.gif

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Posted (edited)

i agree 110% with Odinsgrl.  I was one of the youngest people in NY ever to get fixed... I had to take a Docter to court to get it done, but it's done. Would i want a child? Sure.. if half the human race up and died. Otherwise, I'm not going to bring a life into this world only to have it live in todays society.

Hunterkiller, please don't take this to sound condescending because really it isn't meant to be. I am so saddened that you feel this way, because you will probably change your mind. I did. I was terrified for a variety of reasons to become a parent. At age 30 the rabbit died. Parenthood has since been the most wonderful experience ever. Everyday you get such great surprises. These kids are our future.

Dot

Edited by Daughter of the Nine Moons

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Dot9m.. I know what you mean, where your coming from... My parents said the same thing.

But i can assure you, i have other reasons for not wanting to have a child..

Like, my firm belief I won't live past 30. Docters disagree.. but then again, most have never seen a case like mine. My nervous condition and headaches (explained in other threads) have gradually gotten worse over the years.

While there is no medical explination for it.. I'm not going to have a child, then kick the can.

But, mostly, it's the state of the world that drove me to do that at the age of 18.

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because you will probably change your mind. I did.

I didn't, I had a vasectomy at 27. I didn't have kids, and would rather foster or adopt kids than bring more into this world that can't seem to take care of what is already here.

I haven't looked back, and haven't regreted it in the least...

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My apologies to both of you guys. I got carried away. Reading back it did sound like I was on a soapbox.

Dot9M

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No apology needed at all. You had a different experience and a different opinion. It didn't sound preachy to me at all. I could understand why you would said what you did...

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no biggie hun

But fluffy proves another good point..

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Posted (edited)

I talk about a woman's choice yet I very quickly forgot about a man's choice.

Dot original.gif

Edited by Daughter of the Nine Moons

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Well, I have to say to the men out there, who got "fixed", YEAH!!!! thumbsup.gif So few men out there today take that route.

I would LOVE to be snipped. But unfortunately, its not as easy for women. I've been to several doctors, and they all said, "You can't get fixed, until you've at least one child." or "You have to wait until you're 35", or some other such rubbish. I'm a grown adult, I think I want to know what I want to do with my own body! I don't want children. I just don't. I don't look at them and say, awww. I have my cats and I'm happy. And hey, if I change my mind, I'll adopt!

I hear what everyone is saying about, religion not being the only reason for population explosion. I also think, that more young women should be brought up to respect themselves more. They should be brought up, knowing that they don't have to sleep with every, Tom, Dick, and Harry that comes along. I'm not saying that they should save it for marriage, (I'm against that too, but that's a WHOLE nother topic) or anything like that. But just respect yourself enough to say, "Hey, what makes you think you're good enough to stick your thing in me?"

Don't get me wrong guys, I know that alot of men out there DO respect women, and have great affection for the female species. And thats the only reason I still date.

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Posted (edited)

odinsgrl,

I generally agree with most of what you post. However, this is not a "christian" issue. Only seven places does the bible say to "be fruitful and multiply" Six of the verses are in Genisis and once in the book of Jerimiah. (Old testament) No where does it say that in the new testament.

Plus there are many, if not most, third world countries that have a higher birth rate per capita than the industrialized nations, (China being an exception) that have no formal introduction to the bible and it's teachings. These countries had high birth rates long before the christian crusaders ever came to thier lands.

In many countries, particularly the middle east, children are seen as wealth in a family. Again, nothing to do with christians, but of social standing.

However, I do agree that the Catholics carry the 0 birth control issue too far. As do some factions of Muslims and the Jewish.

Birth control, abortion and sterilization are all western ideas. We live in a throw away society and children have become a part of it. What we refuse to do is educate young people, and make people responsible for thier actions.

I agree that overpopulation is a problem, however statistically speaking, the worlds birth rate is declining, and has been for the past ten years. But the population is not declining as fast. Main reason. People are living longer due to modern medicine. Children that would have died at birth, are now saved by science and medical intervention. Accidents that would have been fatal twenty years ago, are no longer a major threat to life and limb.

It's not caused by religion of any sort to any major impact. Over population is due to modern science, and the lack of education and responsibility.

FB, I take my hat off to you sir. Job well done.

Edited by stillcrazy

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This topic reminds me a bit of that old Monty Python movie, "meaning of life", where in Ireland two families (one catholic, the other protestant) live across the street. The catholics have 20 children and are starving in poverty, while the protestants have no children (or 1-2, i don't remember) and are rich. The protestant man, drinking his fine tea, reading morning newspaper, says "I'm glad my religion allows me to wear condom".. tongue.gif

I think that the people who believe that Bible (or any other religion book, christian or not) is to be taken literally, are the same who say "I do what doctors tell me, doctors are always right", or "The old ways are the best", or anything else like that, promoting ignorance and narrow-mindness. The Bible was written to reflect a time where needs were different, and people needed to understand some things in a specific way. That doesn't mean that it's "no good for us", for our modern times. In the Bible there are many things and lessons to be learnt, but one needs to look upon them with maturity of mind and spirit.

In case you missed it in the signature, I repeat it here:

I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.

Galileo

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I would LOVE to be snipped. But unfortunately, its not as easy for women. I've been to several doctors, and they all said, "You can't get fixed, until you've at least one child." or "You have to wait until you're 35", or some other such rubbish.

As i said, I had mine done at 18, and i had to take the doc to court to do it.

I've been with the same girl since, and she loves the fact that i made that choice.

Cats are the only children she wants too.. we have 4.

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I believe a system should go into effect. The one in china is a perfect example.

2 people = 1 kid.

Thats it.

Had a child with your first wife, and now want another? Tough

That's what China's law is, all right. It is rather barbaric, if you ask me. If a couple has a child, and accidentally gets pregnant again, the new child must be killed. If a woman is pregnant with twins, one must die. China is known to be a country that does not value human life.

Another solution to this problem is to have both passive and active euthenasia.

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