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H.H. Holmes

Japan's Buru-Sera Shops and Obsession

36 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

For people familiar with Japanese culture, you would know that the Japanese have an obsession with the youthfulness of young girls, as well as the uniforms they wear. The Japanese put pressure on their women to behave and look younger than they actually are to be desirable. Many mature women in Japanese society act in ways that are reminiscent of a pre-teen in order to attract more male attention. This is in contrast to the Western desire for young girls to act more mature, such as the numerous teenage popstars wearing the risque clothes and singing suggestive lyrics (anyone remember "Genie in a Bottle", Christina was like seventeen at the time). They have the reverse mentality, where they want their women to act and look like school aged girls. Whereas we in the west just want them to look young, not act young.

Disturbing? Well, you have to put it into the context of the Japanese, who have in recent times treated women as sexual conquests more than equal partners. That might be a gross oversimplification of the whole of Japanese sex culture, but it seems to be true from the limited perspective I have had. Shops, even vending machines, are known to sell used schoolgirl underwear or uniforms. The more worn they are, the more they sell for. Skidmarks or menstrual blood is especially desired when men buy these type of items. Link

The Japanese are still a very conservative culture when it comes to the perception of gender roles. Most of the population still believe that a woman's rightful place is at the home. The modern perception of a woman is that of the polite, soft-voiced, gentle, submissive, and non-threatening housewife who patiently waits for their husbands at home. This is a relatively modern portrayal of women in Japanese culture, since until the 11th century women held substantial power in financial and domestic matters, link. This does not mean that there are various sexual perversion in both Japanese women and men, nor a sex industry. Some popular girl's comic books glorify rape and sexual violence.

[One type of popular Japanese erotic comics (ero-manga) is the “ladies comic books” that seem to glorify sexual violence and rape. These are not a tiny fringe phenomenon - Amour, the leading such comic, has been published for six years and claims a sales circulation of 400,000. Amour, Taboo, Cute, Scandal, Love, and other similar ero-manga have a greater impact than their substantial sales would indicate, because copies are often passed around among friends. Even so, these magazines are also not standard fare for the average Japanese woman.

[The paradox of these “ladies comic books” lies in the fact that, although their readers are overwhelmingly women, mostly in their 20s and 30s, the cartoon stories glorify sexually passive women, sexual violence, and rape. Ninety of the 316 pages in the December 1995 issue ofAmour, for example, contained rape scenes. Despite the growing independence of Japanese women, these comics portray passive women being brutalized rather than assertive women who control their own lives. When interviewed by a New York Times reporter, Masafumi Mizuno, editor of Amour, admitted that “Sometimes we carry stories where the woman takes the initiative, and those kinds of stories have their fans. But most readers seem to prefer when the women are in a passive position.” Mariko Mitsui, a former politician and active feminist, Finds it puzzling that many young Japanese women really do not want to be liberated. “They want to escape independence, and so for them to be raped seems better” than negotiating their own sexual encounters.

Should these issues (the selling of used panties and violent pornography) warrant any special attention, or are they just normal sexual behaviors.

Edited by H.H. Holmes

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If there is one thing that separates me from many anime fans, it is that I would never want to live in Japan.

As stated, it is one of the most conservative cultures in the world, and I feel incredibly sorry for any woman who has to grow up there.

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Spain Sun,

They have an unrealistic expectations when it comes to women, although it's not as if we in the states don't either.

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Quote"Sexual perversion is related to the form of society. What must be pointed out is that there is something fundamentally wrong with this nation when 'buru-sera' shops flourish and 'neo-yamatondeshiko' are allowed to sell themselves without comment from their parents or older. It is a bartering session, one without a soul"

http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/operatic/294/burusera.htm

Its really hard to say what is right and wrong moving from one culture to another. Its abit like how we eat cows and in Vietnam, the norm is eating dogs. We think its wrong, but in Vietam, it's their way of life. I don't think it needs any special attention, its just how they roll.

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Japan is a cultural melting pot.

Atrios would tell us it's the fault of everyone whose ever stepped foot in Japan who wasn't Asian, but I suspect it's more a case of the Japanese being rabidly curious and assimilatory, trying out new ideas, taking what they like and scrambling to find a place for it in their own culture.

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Posted (edited)

Japan is a cultural melting pot.

Atrios would tell us it's the fault of everyone whose ever stepped foot in Japan who wasn't Asian, but I suspect it's more a case of the Japanese being rabidly curious and assimilatory, trying out new ideas, taking what they like and scrambling to find a place for it in their own culture.

LOL!

hehe...

Edited by Alladar

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Quote"Sexual perversion is related to the form of society. What must be pointed out is that there is something fundamentally wrong with this nation when 'buru-sera' shops flourish and 'neo-yamatondeshiko' are allowed to sell themselves without comment from their parents or older. It is a bartering session, one without a soul"

http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/operatic/294/burusera.htm

Its really hard to say what is right and wrong moving from one culture to another. Its abit like how we eat cows and in Vietnam, the norm is eating dogs. We think its wrong, but in Vietam, it's their way of life. I don't think it needs any special attention, its just how they roll.

I know that what might be considered taboo in one country might be the norm in another.

I know, it's probably because I don't understand the whole of Japanese culture, so correct me if I am wrong. But I just find the thought of grown men using these panties for perverted purposes (like there are any other purpose for buying used panties) disturbing in any context. That, to me and my sensibilities, is pretty creepy. The behavior just borders on pedophilia and some of these lonely men might try to act on these fantasies. Although, these girls who give the panties to the shops are not complaining because of the decent amount of cash they make. The Japanese seem to be a culture that is stuck between the traditions of the past and modern materialism.

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I never understood Japanese heroines dressed as schoolgirls. :blink: Thanks for clearing that up. :wacko:

Lapiche

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I realize that entertainment varies by culture, but there still are universal taboos, which is a good thing. For instance, cartoons or comics about incest would be banned and/or shunned by normal people in all countries. Rape stories fall into the same category. The "shades of gray" explanation doesn't always apply, because some material is objectively wrong.

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Its really hard to say what is right and wrong moving from one culture to another. Its abit like how we eat cows and in Vietnam, the norm is eating dogs. We think its wrong, but in Vietam, it's their way of life. I don't think it needs any special attention, its just how they roll.

One can take that philosophy only so far. Say that a certain culture allows boys and girls to get married at the age of eight. Is that "just how they roll"? There's nothing wrong with making some value judgments.

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I realize that entertainment varies by culture, but there still are universal taboos, which is a good thing. For instance, cartoons or comics about incest would be banned and/or shunned by normal people in all countries. Rape stories fall into the same category. The "shades of gray" explanation doesn't always apply, because some material is objectively wrong.

Lolita and A Street Car Named Desire both feature incredibly taboo subject matters at their hearts and they're both made into films, and used as teaching materials for children (albeit high school aged ones).

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Lolita and A Street Car Named Desire both feature incredibly taboo subject matters at their hearts and they're both made into films, and used as teaching materials for children (albeit high school aged ones).

Yeah, but we've always had tons of books and movies that feature controversial subjects. They're a world apart from things like child pornography. We still rightly draw the line at some points. Nabokov's work is a far cry from an actual disgusting x-rated film, for example.

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This is entirely natural ape behaviour. It is normal for male apes to look for signs of youthfulness in potential mates. Looking youthful indicates good genes and health.

I'm not of the opinion that it is right to act on this kind of attraction. But I have done some research which showed that over 80% of all men are ehebephiles. This means that over 80% of men are attracted to post-pubescent but pre-adult girls. Even if this attraction is not conscious, or not reported, it IS there. This study was done with images of girls and women and a device that measures circumference of the penis and thus blood flow to the penis, a good indicator of arousal.

The thing is, as a sentient species, we have to act with care for others. We can't just willy nilly cow every girl we like into sex, like chimps. That's not acceptable. We KNOW that humans have minds like ours, and it isn't right to act on your attractions to those much younger.

The BIGGEST problem is if the attraction is linked to PRE-pubescent children. This is a dangerous link to make in the brain. It's like the parts that look for youthfulness and reward you in the brain for finding it have gone into overdrive and cause too much attraction to youth.

Again, though, I have done research and found that most people who ACTUALLY rape children are NOT doing it becaue of a real attraction. They tend to be related to the victim, and they tend to have no attraction to children. They use the child because children are easily manipulatable. Because they are easier to coerce than adults.

The thing is, humans are probably the most sexual animals on the planet. And we've taken it upon ourselves to also link our intellectual flexibility to our sexuality. It now can evolve in ways that no other animal would consider. Sexuality is no longer a soley internal and private thing, not in our species. And attractions like this are bound to happen. Ehebephiles are everywhere. Remember, 80%. What must be done is people have to be taught to relegate these kinds of attractions to their fantasies. As long as this kind of thing is fantastical, and not based in reality, an attraction is not wrong. An acted upon attraction is likely to cause problems.

Are you going to lock up 80% of all men? :P

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Again, though, I have done research and found that most people who ACTUALLY rape children are NOT doing it becaue of a real attraction. They tend to be related to the victim, and they tend to have no attraction to children. They use the child because children are easily manipulatable. Because they are easier to coerce than adults.

Do you have a link I could see?

I agree with most of what you said in your post, Logos. These attractions should be left to fantasy and not acted upon, but there is a somewhat blurry line between the two. Aren't older men who buy the used panties not acting on their fantasies to a small extent? I mean it isn't as bad as actually having sexual relations with a school-aged girl, but it is a step on the way. Also, the fact that these girls are selling their used underwear is quite disturbing as well, because it impresses upon them a twisted sense of sexuality linked to profit.

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Do you have a link I could see?

I agree with most of what you said in your post, Logos. These attractions should be left to fantasy and not acted upon, but there is a somewhat blurry line between the two. Aren't older men who buy the used panties not acting on their fantasies to a small extent? I mean it isn't as bad as actually having sexual relations with a school-aged girl, but it is a step on the way. Also, the fact that these girls are selling their used underwear is quite disturbing as well, because it impresses upon them a twisted sense of sexuality linked to profit.

To some extent, I can agree with this. But if they have this strong attraction already, then it's only likely that they will need some sort of outlet for their passions. If using used panties helps them do this without acting fully on the impulse, then I think it's a good thing. I think the real people being exploited here are the older men who get absolutely nothing but underwear from the schoolgirls. :P

I do, however, agree, partially at least, with your final sentence. That's why we have to take an educational approach to this.

I will attempt to find the research again. It'll have to wait until tonight, however.

I had done some math and research myself (which I've unfortunately lost - the site I posted it on went to over 30 pages before the mods decided to delete it), but I also got several studies conducted by qualified scientists, and I will endeavor to find these. I think the penis circumference study is most interesting, as it claimed attraction by over 80% of males. That means we'll always have to deal with this latent attraction, and that we should look for social strategies to reduce the number of people who act upon it. I think education and acceptance are VERY important, in this regard.

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I realize that entertainment varies by culture, but there still are universal taboos, which is a good thing. For instance, cartoons or comics about incest would be banned and/or shunned by normal people in all countries. Rape stories fall into the same category. The "shades of gray" explanation doesn't always apply, because some material is objectively wrong.

I disagree. Things are ONLY wrong if they cause definitive harm. I don't think incest comics fall in this category.

Just because you find something wrong doesn't give you the right to apply this morality, then, to everyone. And while I certainly agree that most people would shun this kind of thing, I also believe that there are completely harmless people out there doing no wrong to anyone who enjoy this kind of stuff. They lead their lives, they don't hurt people, they don't commit crimes, etc. And yet they have an uncontrolled attraction to things like incest, or others. As long as this remains in the realm of fantasy, good for them, IMO.

I'd also not consider incest wrong in itself unless rape was involved, someone was underage, or there were fertility issues. I don't think it's right to birth children from this kind of union, that would be harm caused. But two people, brother and sister, who are consenting adults with no chance of conception, who just want to have sex... Personally, I think that's their business, though I think they might look into a psychiatrist. I wouldn't jail them for doing something that I find arbitrarily wrong. If it doesn't cause harm, I can't justify illegalizing it.

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I disagree. Things are ONLY wrong if they cause definitive harm. I don't think incest comics fall in this category.

Just because you find something wrong doesn't give you the right to apply this morality, then, to everyone. And while I certainly agree that most people would shun this kind of thing, I also believe that there are completely harmless people out there doing no wrong to anyone who enjoy this kind of stuff. They lead their lives, they don't hurt people, they don't commit crimes, etc. And yet they have an uncontrolled attraction to things like incest, or others. As long as this remains in the realm of fantasy, good for them, IMO.

I'd also not consider incest wrong in itself unless rape was involved, someone was underage, or there were fertility issues. I don't think it's right to birth children from this kind of union, that would be harm caused. But two people, brother and sister, who are consenting adults with no chance of conception, who just want to have sex... Personally, I think that's their business, though I think they might look into a psychiatrist. I wouldn't jail them for doing something that I find arbitrarily wrong. If it doesn't cause harm, I can't justify illegalizing it.

DL, I don't advocate censoring or outlawing consensual perversions (not involving underage individuals). That wasn't my point. My point was that we need the cojones to draw a line in the sand and say that some things are immoral. Too many cowed people are afraid to say what they think because they might offend some tiny fringe group of perverts. I'm not one of these people. I'm not afraid to say that incest and rape stories are sick and twisted. Value judgments aren't always bad things, despite the increasingly nauseating PC propaganda that seeks to destroy society's moral compass. I have no reservations about exercising my *right* to condemn obviously depraved material.

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Posted (edited)

First of all would you mind calling me either D-L or Druidus or Logos? Or D-Logos. I don't like DL, though many folks use it. If you don't mind of course, please. Much appreciated.

DL, I don't advocate censoring or outlawing consensual perversions (not involving underage individuals). That wasn't my point. My point was that we need the cojones to draw a line in the sand and say that some things are immoral. Too many cowed people are afraid to say what they think because they might offend some tiny fringe group of perverts. I'm not one of these people. I'm not afraid to say that incest and rape stories are sick and twisted. Value judgments aren't always bad things, despite the increasingly nauseating PC propaganda that seeks to destroy society's moral compass. I have no reservations about exercising my *right* to condemn obviously depraved material.

I'm sorry, but these "perverts" are not wrong. It is you who is wrong for condemning people hurting no one.

No line in the sand need be drawn, and it IS bigoted to think there needs to be one. You'll have to do better than that, and use real logic and science, to show yourself to be right.

I am disgusted with many sexual practices. But I would NEVER deign to say that I'm superior to those people and should be able to choose what they can look at. That is the true immorality. You have a "right" to condemn it. You don't have a right to tell people they can't do it.

Rape fantasy is common. My girlfriend likes it when I "rape" her. We've learned a lot from rape stories about how to do it (I'm rather shy). How is that wrong? We both like it. It's consensual. I haven't raped anyone, and we've read a LOT of rape stories. These stories have only helped, not hurt. And that's why its ok.

No one has the right to "draw a line in the sand" and suggest that anyone else who doesn't fit within your sexual boundaries should be forced to be asexual, or at least not pursue their harmless passions.

Your attitude is vestigial and moralistic. You CANNOT tell people what to do without science. To do so is proselytization and is a disgusting attempt at controlling people you have no right to control.

I'm sorry you find it icky. Again, though, that doesn't mean you can screw with the lives of MILLIONS. Yes, that's right, millions. And perhaps billions. These are NATURAL APE ATTRACTIONS. ANY OUTLET IS A GOOD OUTLET IF IT LOWERS THE INCIDENTS OF SUCCUMBING TO INNAPPROPRIATE ATTRACTIONS.

Edited by Druidus-Logos

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In the west, the majority of us were raised with Judeo-Christian morals that other parts of the world simply do not understand. What is "perverse" to us is acceptable in those other cultures, and vice-versa.

Even within the west, what is seen as "normal" varies.

"underage" for example. Some places it's under-18, others it's under-16....in Spain it's under-13!

We shouldn't judge too harshly.

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First of all would you mind calling me either D-L or Druidus or Logos? Or D-Logos. I don't like DL, though many folks use it. If you don't mind of course, please. Much appreciated.

I'm sorry, but these "perverts" are not wrong. It is you who is wrong for condemning people hurting no one.

No line in the sand need be drawn, and it IS bigoted to think there needs to be one. You'll have to do better than that, and use real logic and science, to show yourself to be right.

I am disgusted with many sexual practices. But I would NEVER deign to say that I'm superior to those people and should be able to choose what they can look at. That is the true immorality. You have a "right" to condemn it. You don't have a right to tell people they can't do it.

Rape fantasy is common. My girlfriend likes it when I "rape" her. We've learned a lot from rape stories about how to do it (I'm rather shy). How is that wrong? We both like it. It's consensual. I haven't raped anyone, and we've read a LOT of rape stories. These stories have only helped, not hurt. And that's why its ok.

No one has the right to "draw a line in the sand" and suggest that anyone else who doesn't fit within your sexual boundaries should be forced to be asexual, or at least not pursue their harmless passions.

Your attitude is vestigial and moralistic. You CANNOT tell people what to do without science. To do so is proselytization and is a disgusting attempt at controlling people you have no right to control.

I'm sorry you find it icky. Again, though, that doesn't mean you can screw with the lives of MILLIONS. Yes, that's right, millions. And perhaps billions. These are NATURAL APE ATTRACTIONS. ANY OUTLET IS A GOOD OUTLET IF IT LOWERS THE INCIDENTS OF SUCCUMBING TO INNAPPROPRIATE ATTRACTIONS.

(smacks forehead) Did you even read the first sentence in my post? I said that I wouldn't censor or outlaw perverse material that doesn't feature minors. Thus, your whole emotional response to my post is merely based on a strawman, which distorts what I *really* said. I'll repeat my main point in a succinct fashion. Some material is so depraved and wretched that it deserves society's condemnation. There are times when a spade should be called a spade. I don't care if that may be disurbing to some folks' delicate sensibilities. Some of us aren't brainwashed by the PC garbage that's an affront to common sense.

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In the west, the majority of us were raised with Judeo-Christian morals that other parts of the world simply do not understand. What is "perverse" to us is acceptable in those other cultures, and vice-versa.

Even within the west, what is seen as "normal" varies.

"underage" for example. Some places it's under-18, others it's under-16....in Spain it's under-13!

We shouldn't judge too harshly.

There was a time when Black people were seen as inferior by much of American society. Women are treated like trash in some Muslim countries. Is it all just cultural and relative kumbaya? We shouldn't judge too harshly, right? ;-)

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Posted (edited)

(smacks forehead) Did you even read the first sentence in my post? I said that I wouldn't censor or outlaw perverse material that doesn't feature minors. Thus, your whole emotional response to my post is merely based on a strawman, which distorts what I *really* said. I'll repeat my main point in a succinct fashion. Some material is so depraved and wretched that it deserves society's condemnation. There are times when a spade should be called a spade. I don't care if that may be disurbing to some folks' delicate sensibilities. Some of us aren't brainwashed by the PC garbage that's an affront to common sense.

Whatever helps you sleep better at night.

I'm not brainwashed by political correctness, regardless of what you want to believe.

You seem unable to accept that some people, many people, do not have the qualms that you do and do not need your arbitrary condemnations. I'm talking science. You're talking condemnation because you find something icky or bad to you emotionally. Guess what? You aren't everyone, and many others have different and just as valid emotions. If they aren't hurting anyone, they should not be denigrated or shunned. As I've said before, education and acceptance are FAR more important than condemnation out of hand.

Whatever makes your beliefs easier to hold though. I'm sure that just because you feel a certain way, that's how it must be. I mean, you're you, and that's all that matters, you and your beliefs!

I'll rip apart your posts with logic tomorrow (not that I think you'll listen to logic), for now I sleep.

Edited by Druidus-Logos

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Whatever helps you sleep better at night.

I'm not brainwashed by political correctness, regardless of what you want to believe.

You seem unable to accept that some people, many people, do not have the qualms that you do and do not need your arbitrary condemnations. I'm talking science. You're talking condemnation because you find something icky or bad to you emotionally. Guess what? You aren't everyone, and many others have different and just as valid emotions. If they aren't hurting anyone, they should not be denigrated or shunned. As I've said before, education and acceptance are FAR more important than condemnation out of hand.

Whatever makes your beliefs easier to hold though. I'm sure that just because you feel a certain way, that's how it must be. I mean, you're you, and that's all that matters, you and your beliefs!

I'll rip apart your posts with logic tomorrow (not that I think you'll listen to logic), for now I sleep.

No offense, but forgive me if I don't expect to see much so-called logic in your next reply. None is in evidence so far. However, it's quite logical and rational to criticize depictions of raped teenagers that are used to satisfy the perversions of a subculture of sick Japanese men, who don't represent most Japanese citizens. *Logical* individuals would understand that.

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Posted (edited)

No offense, but forgive me if I don't expect to see much so-called logic in your next reply. None is in evidence so far. However, it's quite logical and rational to criticize depictions of raped teenagers that are used to satisfy the perversions of a subculture of sick Japanese men, who don't represent most Japanese citizens. *Logical* individuals would understand that.

No offense, but I don't think you are capable of recognizing logic when you see it. It seems you are only capable of knee-jerk emotional responses.

Sorry, but I don't condider it logic to use the rhetoric you do in order to condemn people who have harmed nobody.

Just because you disagree with something doesn't make you right.

Truly logical individuals would allow that so long as someone causes no harm, then there is no foul.

Out of curiousity, are you religious?

Edited by Druidus-Logos

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In hindsight, maybe I was a little unduly harsh. Sorry, if that's that case. Don't mind me, I honestly don't mean to cause problems, I'm just used to this kind of conversations on other more vigourous forums.

Again, sorry, let's tone it down and have an enjoyable convrsation. I don't want to steal the thread from the OP with inanity and flamewars.

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