Japan's Buru-Sera Shops and Obsession

[Lilly]

Just because you disagree with something doesn't make you right.

Truly logical individuals would allow that so long as someone causes no harm, then there is no foul.

Out of curiousity, are you religious?

Disagreement with something like this is not illogical. When it comes to moral standards it de facto becomes something more than just 'logic'. It can be quite rationally argued that sexual preoccupation with underage children indicates pedophilia.

As for the "no harm no foul" reasoning, one could easily argue that this kind of thing is a border line version of "kiddie porn" and may very well be psychologically harmful.

While most religions do incorporate moral criteria protective of children this is a civil/sociological issue as well. Personally, I find this kind of thing to be objectionable and not beneficial to civilized society.

[Eldorado]

There was a time when Black people were seen as inferior by much of American society. Women are treated like trash in some Muslim countries. Is it all just cultural and relative kumbaya? We shouldn't judge too harshly, right? ;-)

There's a helluva difference between a racist society, the subjugation of females and some guy being conned out of money for a pair of soiled panties.

The Asians are more up-front and open about their sexual fantasies than us in the west, where the same fetishes are just as common but are disguised, hidden and denied.

"The pornographic film industry is centered in the San Fernando Valley, northwest of downtown Los Angeles. An estimated 200 production companies in the region employ as many as 1,500 performers, making up to 11,000 films and earning as much as $13 billion a year."

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/13/health/13hiv.html?_r=1

Catholic Schoolgirl's Uniform

"The girls' uniform has become an iconic figure in Western culture, on par with the sailor fuku of Japan; women dressed in Catholic school uniforms (or a variation thereof) is also a common sexual fetish."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_school_uniform

Edited August 8, 2010 by Eldorado

[Dracotep Frankenwolf]

There's a helluva difference between a racist society, the subjugation of females and some guy being conned out of money for a pair of soiled panties.

The Asians are more up-front and open about their sexual fantasies than us in the west, where the same fetishes are just as common but are disguised, hidden and denied.

"The pornographic film industry is centered in the San Fernando Valley, northwest of downtown Los Angeles. An estimated 200 production companies in the region employ as many as 1,500 performers, making up to 11,000 films and earning as much as $13 billion a year."

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/13/health/13hiv.html?_r=1

Catholic Schoolgirl's Uniform

"The girls' uniform has become an iconic figure in Western culture, on par with the sailor fuku of Japan; women dressed in Catholic school uniforms (or a variation thereof) is also a common sexual fetish."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_school_uniform

My attempted sarcasm failed (hence the ;-) wink). I was referring to general racism and sexism, not Jim Crow and sharia law. My point was that most people draw the line at some things, and they use value judgments to do so. Communities declare that some things aren't acceptable, for the sake of a harmonious society. That's not to say that unpopular ideas, material, speech, etc. should be banned. It's to say that individuals have the right to deem it unacceptable when they recognize the possible harm of it. This applies to material that features incest and rape as the central focus of "entertainment". Common sense dictates that some things cross the proverbial line, and it's fine to say that they do.

[Dracotep Frankenwolf]

In hindsight, maybe I was a little unduly harsh. Sorry, if that's that case. Don't mind me, I honestly don't mean to cause problems, I'm just used to this kind of conversations on other more vigourous forums.

Again, sorry, let's tone it down and have an enjoyable convrsation. I don't want to steal the thread from the OP with inanity and flamewars.

All is forgiven. It would be petty and silly to hold a grudge over a somewhat heated debate. There are things that *really* matter, and this isn't one of them. Besides, I've been on other forums that are like the worst parts of the Bronx.

[Pauly Dangerously]

...Shops, even vending machines, are known to sell used schoolgirl underwear or uniforms.[/url] The more worn they are, the more they sell for. Skidmarks or menstrual blood is especially desired when men buy these type of items...

Noted and filed under "Ewwwwwwww..."

[Eldorado]

Noted and filed under "Ewwwwwwww..."

Yep!

(I can't find a smiley throwing-up)

Edited August 11, 2010 by Eldorado

[H.H. Holmes]

Disagreement with something like this is not illogical. When it comes to moral standards it de facto becomes something more than just 'logic'. It can be quite rationally argued that sexual preoccupation with underage children indicates pedophilia.

As for the "no harm no foul" reasoning, one could easily argue that this kind of thing is a border line version of "kiddie porn" and may very well be psychologically harmful.

While most religions do incorporate moral criteria protective of children this is a civil/sociological issue as well. Personally, I find this kind of thing to be objectionable and not beneficial to civilized society.

I have to agree with this, the behavior of having an obsession with underage girls is a step toward pedophilia. I'm not trying to say that anyone who buys these panties or fantasizes about underage girls are going to act on their fantasies, but it is a step towards the actualization of their desires. Buying panties used by young girls to be used for sexual purposes is, in my opinion, on par with child pornography. The desires and motivations are the same, which is to get as close to acting out the fantasy as much as possible, or to taste the forbidden.

Logos, this might be natural "ape" behavior, but we are not chimpanzees and we have an obligation to take into consideration what effects our actions have. Sure, the girls in Japan who sell their panties might not be having sex with the older men physically and they profit from the trade. However, the degree to which these men are taking their fantasy is a little overboard for myself because they are trying to get a physical connection between them and these young girls (i.e. the panties). Many paraphiles start out with little, in nocuous acts, like panty stealing or voyeurism, then their behavior escalates. Also, even if the attraction is not acted upon in reality a person can still be a pedophile or ehebophile based on other behaviors relating to their attraction.

From Wikipedia Article on Pedophilia:

Neither the ICD nor the DSM diagnostic criteria require actual sexual activity with a prepubescent youth. The diagnosis can therefore be made based on the presence of fantasies or sexual urges even if they have never been acted upon. On the other hand, a person who acts upon these urges yet experiences no distress about their fantasies or urges can also qualify for the diagnosis. Acting on sexual urges is not limited to overt sex acts for purposes of this diagnosis, and can sometimes include indecent exposure, voyeuristic or frotteuristic behaviors,[4] or m********ing to child pornography.[24] Often these behaviors need to be considered in-context with an element of clinical judgment before a diagnosis is made. Likewise, when the patient is in late adolescence, the age difference is not specified in hard numbers and instead requires careful consideration of the situation.[25]

Men in Japan have already been acting on their attraction to young girls by paying for sex or sexual contact with them. Because of the popularity of Lolicon in Japan, thousands of teenage girls decide to sell their bodies to much older men and there are even telephone dating services for men looking for underage schoolgirls. This is allowed in Japan because the age of consent is only fourteen years old. Link Pre-teen girls have also been popular models in Japanese magazines which have them wearing thongs and bikinis. Link

Also, according to law enforcement, many child sex predators collect images of child modeling, whether pornographic in nature or not. PDF Article on Sex Offenders

Edited August 11, 2010 by H.H. Holmes

[Siara]

LOL. Once when I was in a bank in Japan I noticed this sweet looking, very proper, 70-something lady dressed in a kimono. She was standing in front of me in line and came up to maybe my shoulder. I looked at what she was reading and was surprised to see incredibly violent *spam filter*-- naked bodies shackled to the wall, women being whipped with blood running out of the welts, a dominatrix dressed in black leather waving a sword above her head. It was obvious that this was considered perfectly normal and no big deal by the other (Japanese) people who filled the room.

It's a different culture. You think that it's the same as western culture because people wear blue jeans, they have modern technology, etc. But no. It's another take on the world. Interestingly, they have WAY, WAY less violence and crime than we do so maybe they're doing something right.

================================

edited to add: I don't think that Asian mannerisms are meant to mimic little girls. I think that's a false way to interpret a female etiquette which is different from ours.

Edited August 12, 2010 by Siara

[Siara]

I don't know about this school girls used panties thing. But I DO know that applying western standards to their behavior doesn't work. They aren't European. It's possible for people to be decent, good people and to behave wildly outside of your cultural norms. From what I could see (based on the way they treated each other) Japanese culture was much more civilized than ours.

.

Edited August 12, 2010 by Siara

[H.H. Holmes]

LOL. Once when I was in a bank in Japan I noticed this sweet looking 70-something lady dressed in a kimono. She was standing in front of me in line and came up to maybe my shoulder. I looked at what she was reading and was surprised to see incredibly violent *spam filter*-- naked bodies shackled to the wall, women being whipped with blood running out of the welts, a dominatrix dressed in black leather waving a sword above her head. It was obvious that this was considered perfectly normal and no big deal by the other (Japanese) people who filled the room.

It's a different culture. You think that it's the same as western culture because people wear blue jeans, they have modern technology, etc. But no. It's another take on the world. Interestingly, they have WAY, WAY less violence and crime than we do so maybe they're doing something right.

================================

edited to add: I don't think that Asian mannerisms are meant to mimic little girls. I think that's a false way to interpret a female etiquette which is different from ours.

I know that Japanese culture is far different than most of western society. I know that what is considered obscene in the west isn't in Japan or other countries. While I understand the deviations between the customs of cultures, I still find some behavior as potentially harmful or exploitative. If something if harmful to others it is wrong in my opinion, whether it is in any cultural context or not.

Japan isn't perfect and I would suggest that they are, by average, less satisfied people. While Japan has a relatively low rate of crime, the suicide rate in Japan ranks fourth in the entire world by capita. That must say something as well.

Edited August 12, 2010 by H.H. Holmes

[Siara]

Japan isn't perfect and I would suggest that they are, by average, less satisfied people. While Japan has a relatively low rate of crime, the suicide rate in Japan ranks fourth in the entire world by capita. That must say something as well.

google the words "seppuku" and "bushido". If you think that Japanese culture is strange, read up on the traditions of classical Mayan culture.

The woman have it rough in Japan (at least they used to) because they are educated and then expected to stay home. They are considered 100% responsible for anything their children do wrong. The pressure is enormous. People commit suicide because of the pressure to perform as parents and workers. Sexual violence, pedophilia and that sort of crime are way less of a problem than they are in America.

Edited August 12, 2010 by Siara