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Paxus

When the evidence is overwhelming

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Posted (edited)

My apologies if this incident has been discussed already - I admit I haven't checked.

The reason I'm posting isn't so much to discuss this incident but to ask why there is still any doubt about ET craft flying around here on dear lil' Earth when there is such overwhelming and credible evidence to the contrary?...

It is these sightings that have come to convince me that ET do fly around Earth. I.e. When not just sighted but sighted by ground, by pilots and by radar, all together.

The overwhelming evidence I'm talking about comes from incidents like the 1956 Lakenheath radar & visual sightings.

If you're not familiar with this incident, click here.

Keep in mind, here we have several radar operators from at least 2 sites, several pilots and people on the ground, all who are credible witnesses sighting what could not have been man-made or meteorological phenomenon.

By no means is this a unique case either.

If you are still adamant that UFOs in such instances are NOT ET craft please discuss why....

Edited by Paxus

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Because not everyone accept the same standards of evidence.

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Posted (edited)

My apologies if this incident has been discussed already - I admit I haven't checked.

The reason I'm posting isn't so much to discuss this incident but to ask why there is still any doubt about ET craft flying around here on dear lil' Earth when there is such overwhelming and credible evidence to the contrary?...

It is these sightings that have come to convince me that ET do fly around Earth. I.e. When not just sighted but sighted by ground, by pilots and by radar, all together.

The overwhelming evidence I'm talking about comes from incidents like the 1956 Lakenheath radar & visual sightings.

If you're not familiar with this incident, click here.

Keep in mind, here we have several radar operators from at least 2 sites, several pilots and people on the ground, all who are credible witnesses sighting what could not have been man-made or meteorological phenomenon.

By no means is this a unique case either.

If you are still adamant that UFOs in such instances are NOT ET craft please discuss why....

Some people wouldn't believe something very weird is going on simply because they don't want to.

They would rather to believe that pilots, cops , military are lying or they're loons.

Clearly craft have been seen that seem light years ahead of human tech. Looking at the facts would force a call for a honest investigation of ufos that the government would keep secret.

Edited by ohio state buckeyes

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Because not everyone accept the same standards of evidence.

Precisely. For some, no matter what evidence is given they'll never believe anything. No matter how good, how much sloid proof offered. For others, no need for evidence, for they'll believe anything and all.

With evidence of unidentifed aircraft, we are a bit stuck. On one hand, any sighting backed up with radar returns, eyewitness testimony, even film of the incident, we can proof most times it is a real terrestial aircraft. Then again, it is with the cases we have evidence that can go either way, and those are the cases that do make us wonder what if...

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Most sightings of UFO's can be explained.

The problem lies in the instances where they can't be, and then someone immediately latches onto aliens.

They remain UFO.

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Most sightings of UFO's can be explained.

The problem lies in the instances where they can't be, and then someone immediately latches onto aliens.

They remain UFO.

I dont think all unexplained sightings are aliens craft. You think all of them aren't ?

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I dont think all unexplained sightings are aliens craft. You think all of them aren't ?

I think the remainder are unidentified, and that's all I can say on it.

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So we have 'Because not everyone accept the same standards of evidence.', we have 'they don't want to' and 'most can be explained but the ones that can't are a problem'...

I dunno guys.. they sound like cop-outs, especially the last one which says nothing at all and I suspect is completely incorrect. I'm talking about the ground, air and radar identified sightings which don't appear to be weather or man made craft. To say most of those can be explained is patently false!

I guess I might not like the answer to my own question... that it must just come down to personalities...

I mean surely if people are neutral and objective, when you see scenario after scenario like the 1956 Lakenheath radar & visual sightings, you must start to believe?.... and I don't mean the few that are just closed-minded...

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It'd be cool if aliens really visited earth. But, the evidence doesn't convince me to believe that they are.

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If you are still adamant that UFOs in such instances are NOT ET craft please discuss why....

I can just as easily say that this is caused by a currently unknown natural phenomena, a phenomena which has a degree of intelligence, is naturally attracted to electrical objects, has the ability to perform at incredible speeds, take on any shape it wishes, including solid and transparent appearances....the evidence for this is in every credible ufo report that has ever been submitted. It proves nothing though, as does saying it must be ET, and explain why if don't agree.

On a personal note, ET is my preferred option, it's the one I want to be true - Some cases I have read make me seriously consider ET as an option, that is a mixture of gut feeling and wishful thinking though. I have no evidence, and have seen no concrete evidence in any of the cases that have come to light that mean I can rule out all other possibilities.

Just my 2 cents worth....

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ITs simple to me,If all but just one event, in all of Time is Alien then the Number is in favor of us not being alone.

It only takes one to Make ET and therefore Not of this Earth. Who cares if Fourty two trillion sightings are weather,Swamp gas,Light beams from the other world,Lochnessy, Or what everr.

One is the Only number you need to know is It!

We cannot prove ,nor can any one prove other wise. So get over all the anger and lack of strength in believing that All things are possible in the Universe.

The Cosmic Glass is really All Full ,not Half Full or Half Empty.

Cant we just Look for whats possible?

post-68971-024536700 1281284025_thumb.jp

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Posted (edited)

Here's a YouTube video concerning the Disclosure Project, which has collcted a number of witnesses from the US military and intelligence agnecies over the years on the subject of ET visits. It mentions the famous case of Dr. Milton Torres who as a young fighter pilot in Britain in 1957 was ordered to scramble and open fire on a UFO, that showed up on radar as the size of an aircraft carrier.

Torres was also told that it was an alien spacecraft and that he was to shoot it down, but when he got within range of the thing, it sped off and left him standing still. There are plenty of incidents like these in the records--this is just one among many.

Now, we can say that in all these reports, the witnesses are lying, joking, hoaxing, hallucinating or just misinterpreting some conventional objects, but I don't really buy that--not all of them. I don't think anyone does after they've read enough of them. This particular witness sounds highly credible to me and there are declassified documents to back up his story.

Dr. Edgar Mitchell, an Apollo astronaut who walked on the moon, says that he was briefed at the Pentagon about ET vists to earth, and that some contacts that have been made. Personally, I don't think he's lying about that. He very likely does have some insider knowledge about these things, given his status as an American hero and space pioneer. And in the US, these men really are heroes--except for a few cranks who say all the moon landings were fake. If they say something, then most people are going to believe it. I do believe Mitchell, who is a witness of the highest credibility and integrity.

And he is not the only astronaut who has said things like this over the years--a number of them have, like Buzz Aldrin and Gordon Cooper.

Nor do I get particularly upset at the thought that various ETs "discovered" us quite some time ago and are observing developments here. Maybe some of their ships malfunctioned and crashed, maybe they have made some covert contacts from time to time--it seems plausible enough.

For whatever reason, though, they haven't chosen to land on the White House lawn and say "Well, here we are!". They may have very good reasons for not doing that, which we could only guess about.

UFO Disclosure Movement

Edited by mcmchugh99

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And yes, as a historian, I wish I had the evidence that people like Mitchell have at least heard about--or had verbally confirmed for them by those who did know more of the details about it.

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By the way, thanks for the replies all ;)

Blacksabbath, have you read many such stories like the example I gave? (Ones where there are several credible witnesses, and the sightings include radar sightings?)

It's people who answer 'Yes' to this question and still doubt it's aliens that have me scratching my head...

Scanner, can you?

Is that the simplest explination? Unkown natural phenomenon?

It sounds to me that you, like me, started out sceptical but after having read enough cases where there are objects clearly under intelligent control, faster and more manouverable than our aircraft that can do(without harming the pilot), caught on radar, seen and often filmed, started to believe it most likely is aliens..

:alien:

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So get over all the anger and lack of strength in believing that All things are possible in the Universe.

Who's angry or lacking in faith? One thing I would say we all share on this section of the board, is an appreciation, in awe of, the space we inhabit. Anybody not blown away by it needs their head rewiring.

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Posted (edited)

There is a LOGICAL argument that I used to have with people that I haven't heard a single person ever mention in the debate for or againts ET visitations...

I'll try to make it short and sweet.

Assumption 1: The universe is infinate, or near enough to infinite.

Assumption 2: If 1, then there must be near infinate number of aliens.

Assumption 3: If 2, then there must be millions or even billions that currently have high technology.

Assumption 4: If technology keeps increasing exponentially, then these aliens with high tech must be able to travel anywhere.

Assumption 5: If 4 and all above then there must be many alien races that know of Earth.

This cannot be refuted if the universe is infinately big (unless it was lets say only a few thousand years old... but it;s not)

Edited by Paxus

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Scanner, can you?

Is that the simplest explination? Unkown natural phenomenon?

It sounds to me that you, like me, started out sceptical but after having read enough cases where there are objects clearly under intelligent control, faster and more manouverable than our aircraft that can do(without harming the pilot), caught on radar, seen and often filmed, started to believe it most likely is aliens..

Hello Paxus,

Actually I came at it from the other way around, I started off believing, because when I first got interested back in the ninties I read books like AboveTopSecret by Tim Good, and thought 'well what else could it be if it's not ET?'......I have read plenty of other theories, as well as taking on board the finer details of cases, as seen through the sceptical eyes, by people like Badeskov, Lilly, MID, Czero, Psyche, Hazzard - all the usual sceptical contributors on this part of the board.

I'm at a point where I think it is possible some cases could be ET (only possible though, not proven, or convincing enough for me to consider taking up a belief in the subject), but I concede that the evidence is lacking. I also have no desire to try and make a square peg fit a round hole anymore.....I regularly scan the skies, or image them, the question of whether we are being visited though? I let the chips fall where they fall, I just keep looking for my own enjoyment. Other people's judgements and beliefs are for them.

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Posted (edited)

Hey Scanner, so you scan the skies do ya Scanner? ;)

Yeh, I think you have a very good balance there (of how you perceive and process all the information).

I might make only the one mention (of DONTEATUS's point), that if, as you pointed out 'it is possible some cases could be ET ' then what the rest are, irrelevant, because it only takes one to answer the burning question.

*sighs* It's so frustrating!

Yet, I still come back to the MANY cases like my OP example or like mcmchugh99's example of Dr. Milton Torres where it's just too much evidence to ignore or refute...

When I think of the fact that after all this time and all these sightings, that there still is no smoking gun, I remind myself that (i) to an advanced race, keeping proof out of our hands is easy or (ii) if governments are covering it up, it's also relatively easy...

Edited by Paxus

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Posted (edited)

I dunno guys.. they sound like cop-outs, especially the last one which says nothing at all and I suspect is completely incorrect. I'm talking about the ground, air and radar identified sightings which don't appear to be weather or man made craft. To say most of those can be explained is patently false!

Yes, which remain unidentified.

We don't know what they are. Alien, foreign, natural unknown phenomena, ect.

Stating that they are definitely proof of alien life is jumping the gun.

The likely hood is that alien life exists, and that there is intelligent life among it.

However, to conclusively state that it exists for certain and has visited us is a different subject.

ETA:

Number five is a jump. They don't have to be aware of us. The galaxy is really, really big place, and we are far on the outer rim of it.

Edited by ShadowSot

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Posted (edited)

And here's a subject that gets much less attention--USOs, or Unidentified Submerged Objects.

In the US, the Air Force, FBI and CIA are regular blabbermouths compared to the Navy when it comes to declassifying information about their investigations into these things. The Navy never says much of anything about this subject.

USOs

Edited by mcmchugh99

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Posted (edited)

Yes, which remain unidentified.

We don't know what they are. Alien, foreign, natural unknown phenomena, ect.

Stating that they are definitely proof of alien life is jumping the gun.

The likely hood is that alien life exists, and that there is intelligent life among it.

However, to conclusively state that it exists for certain and has visited us is a different subject.

ETA:

Number five is a jump. They don't have to be aware of us. The galaxy is really, really big place, and we are far on the outer rim of it.

Heya ShadowSot,

I never stated 'proof', I'm always talking about 'evidence'. See when you have enough 'evidence' (albeit circumstantial) it eventually becomes convincing...

Personally, I've seen enough and I'm surprised with stories like mentioned in this thread that anyone isn't.

Number 5 is no jump, consider number 4, then they MUST have the technology to go EVERYWHERE, in which case they couldn't possibly miss us, even if the universe is BIIIIIG.

Edited by Paxus

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Posted (edited)

Hey Scanner, so you scan the skies do ya Scanner? ;)

Yeh, I think you have a very good balance there (of how you perceive and process all the information).

I might make only the one mention (of DONTEATUS's point), that if, as you pointed out 'it is possible some cases could be ET ' then what the rest are, irrelevant, because it only takes one to answer the burning question.

*sighs* It's so frustrating!

Yet, I still come back to the MANY cases like my OP example or like mcmchugh99's example of Dr. Milton Torres where it's just too much evidence to ignore or refute...

When I think of the fact that after all this time and all these sightings, that there still is no smoking gun, I remind myself that (i) to an advanced race, keeping proof out of our hands is easy or (ii) if governments are covering it up, it's also relatively easy...

I sure do, Paxus, although your neck of the woods is far better suited to scanning the skies, since the weather in the UK can mean you spend thousands on equipment that just sits there gathering dust as we go through month after month of cloud or rain....now that really does make me sigh!! lol

*sighs* It's so frustrating!" - Depends how you view it really, if your trying to prove something then I would imagine this subject is frustrating, but I'm not trying to prove anything so it doesn't bother me really. The way is see it, if I'm out walking the dog one day and a flying saucer lands in front of me, the opinions of those who weren't there are irrelevant to me, as are the other theories thrown out to show what it was. That said, none of us here were present at the sightings that are being discussed, (the cases we are all aware of in the public domain I mean)...therefore the conclusion that it must be ET because no other theory seems to fit it doesn't mean anything either.

No amount of discussion on a forum will move this subject in another direction, or find any proof, the participants in this subject are to diverse for there to be an answer that will fit the bill for all (barring scientific proof we can all see and agree on).

This subject (and astronomy) are an enjoyable and great way to spend your free time if you are just doing it for your own answers and pleasure, but frustrating if you are trying to sway opinion. The latter is a dead end imo.

Edited by -Scanner-

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Number 5 is no jump, consider number 4, then they MUST have the technology to go EVERYWHERE, in which case they couldn't possibly miss us, even if the universe is BIIIIIG.

They most certainly could miss us, even if, possibly especially if, they have the technology to go everywhere.

A truck will get you to the next city quick, but how often do you venture off the highway?

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Heh, yeah, clear sky 99% of the time!

I keep telling myself, 'starting tomorrow, I'll spend more time looking up'!

This is my lazy way out: a page on my own site

Costs me nothing and if 'they' monitor the www, then they can clearly see, I'd like to meet ;)

I see what you're saying about avoiding frustration. I just want to know for 100% certain. Not knowing bugs me.

...No amount of discussion on a forum will move this subject in another direction....

Unless someone finds this type of deductive reasoning useful:

Assumption 1: The universe is infinate, or near enough to infinite.

Assumption 2: If 1, then there must be near infinate number of aliens.

Assumption 3: If 2, then there must be millions or even billions that currently have high technology.

Assumption 4: If technology keeps increasing exponentially, then these aliens with high tech must be able to travel anywhere.

Assumption 5: If 4 and all above then there must be many alien races that know of Earth.

They most certainly could miss us, even if, possibly especially if, they have the technology to go everywhere.

A truck will get you to the next city quick, but how often do you venture off the highway?

You're still assuming something between what we have and 'high technology'.

If they've been around MILLIONS of years, which some MUST have, in an infinate universe this old, then they would have tech so high that they would go EVERYWHERE, not just some lines of everywhere. Perhaps they can scan EVERYWHERE, perhaps they can sense ALL life... whatever, my deduction is that with high tech, they would know every planet everywhere.

Sounds absurd from OUR point of view, but remember, I'm talking about high technology (i think i'm inventing a term here) - and keep in mind how technology increases exponentially. MILLIONS of years would make 'them' like gods...

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There is a LOGICAL argument that I used to have with people that I haven't heard a single person ever mention in the debate for or againts ET visitations...

I'll try to make it short and sweet.

Assumption 1: The universe is infinate, or near enough to infinite.

Assumption 2: If 1, then there must be near infinate number of aliens.

Assumption 3: If 2, then there must be millions or even billions that currently have high technology.

Assumption 4: If technology keeps increasing exponentially, then these aliens with high tech must be able to travel anywhere.

Assumption 5: If 4 and all above then there must be many alien races that know of Earth.

This cannot be refuted if the universe is infinately big (unless it was lets say only a few thousand years old... but it;s not)

Assumption 1 is faulty because as far as we know, the universe is not infinite. Space is infinite, matter is not.

Assumption 2 is faulty because we do not know the frequency of life occuring, it might be very very rare. It might not be.

Assumption 3 is faulty because of the age of the universe and what we know of evolution. A species can easily appear and disappear in less than a million years, but the universe is 14 billion years old. There might have been a race of aliens more advanced than us who died out more than a billion years ago. Not to mention that we do not know the frequency that human-or-higher intelligence would occur.

Assumption 4 is a huge IF. We don't know if technology has limits, we just don't. Science fiction writers easily get past the speed of light travel problem, but it is a problem for a reason. It may not be possible.

Assumption 5 is mostly faulty because of time. Maybe there are a ton of alien species exploring the universe right now, but the universe is still amazingly huge with an obscene amount of solar systems. Even with god-like technology they may still not find us.

The whole arguement draws way too large assumptions to be valid.

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