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Paxus

When the evidence is overwhelming

470 posts in this topic

Thanks mcm! - will check them out soon.

Good points Shadow_Wolf but how can you be sure of any of those assumptions.

Let's say you are an inventor and you come up with the plans for one of these things. Now, i know some things about inventors you may not. For starters most of them are not good with money - I mean in the sense that they usually aren't good entrepreneurs. A lot of them never see any money for their efforts because they are too paranoid to actually show their inventions to anyone. A lot of them are plain weirdos.

Anywho... What I'm getting at is that you may have guys out there who planned these things on paper and never did anything else.

Likewise, you may have some out there who are flying their inventions around like crazy, laughing their crazy arses off at us who are discussing whether or not they are aliens!

And this is just the ones who did file patents.

As to law suits - the books are divided with a large percentage of them being past expiry, so you don't have to worry about being sued if you build an old one ;)

You just down't know Shadow. Anything is possible and weirder things have happened.

Patents are the day job, so I do know the patent system, who files them and why. I am making commercial observations, I leave assumptions to others.

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That may well be the case, but that still doesn't mean you can bring up the possibility of UFOs being kites or balloons when fighters are the ones intercepting them!

How do we know that they were not the cause of calls for interception? To the best of my knowledge, we do not. So far a fighter has yet to actually catch a UFO.

Plasma phenomenon (natural) are so rare...

Yes, to the best of our knowledge they are, but who knows, maybe they are not so rare as we think - we might just not be watching at the right time and place.

Hmmm doesn't this imply that we are seeing aliens then?...

No, why would it?

If the plasma phenomenon are so rare, then when UFO are seen somewhere in the world, probably everyday, they can't all be natural weather phenomena. sooooo.....

We don't know how rare they are. But more importantly, we cannot ascribe plasma to all UFO sightings; actually, we cannot ascribe it to a single sighting as then it wouldn't be a UFO anymore. And this is where the kids and kites come into the equation. How many of the reported sightings are misidentifications of otherwise mundane events? Another parameter we do not know, but I expect the fraction to be rather high. Personally, I would suspect plasma to be the culprit in very few sightings, those preciously few that actually have radar tracking associated with them as well as independent visual confirmation. And those are indeed preciously few and far apart.

No need to look up =- Luke Fortune = ufohowto.com

Thanks Pax :tu:

Cheers,

Badeskov

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And this video mentions a Nazi interest in space travel and disc-shaped aircraft, based on UFO reports and pictures than von Braun and other German scientists were aware of. Some of those very early UFO pictures from Germany and Austria in the 1920s and 1930s look real, as do some of the German experimental craft.

...

So? It's not exactly secret knowledge that scientists in the 1930s were looking into such.

Cheers,

Badeskov

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<snip>

No need to look up =- Luke Fortune = ufohowto.com

I looked at said link and I didn't really see anything that wasn't basic physics. Whatever described there are certainly interesting physics experiments, but not much else. Is there something specific you'd like me to comment on?

Cheers,

Badeskov

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My apologies if this incident has been discussed already - I admit I haven't checked.

The reason I'm posting isn't so much to discuss this incident but to ask why there is still any doubt about ET craft flying around here on dear lil' Earth when there is such overwhelming and credible evidence to the contrary?...

It is these sightings that have come to convince me that ET do fly around Earth. I.e. When not just sighted but sighted by ground, by pilots and by radar, all together.

The overwhelming evidence I'm talking about comes from incidents like the 1956 Lakenheath radar & visual sightings.

If you're not familiar with this incident, click here.

Keep in mind, here we have several radar operators from at least 2 sites, several pilots and people on the ground, all who are credible witnesses sighting what could not have been man-made or meteorological phenomenon.

By no means is this a unique case either.

If you are still adamant that UFOs in such instances are NOT ET craft please discuss why....

Pax, again, please do accept my apologies for the late entrance to this subject. So where is the incontrovertible evidence? All I see is various interpretations of certain events. All of which can have a number of interpretations and, frankly, in my point of view few of said interpretations have anything to do with ET. So where is this overwhelming evidence?

Cheers,

Badeskov

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RADAR IS JUST THAT RADAR Its not Proof its a window into the possibilities!

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Colonel Ross Dedrickson: US Air Force/Atomic Energy Commission, ret.): "After retiring from the Air Force I joined the Boeing company and was responsible for accounting for all of the nuclear fleet of Minuteman missiles. In this incident they actually photographed the UFO following the missile as it climbed into space and, shining a beam on it, neutralized the missile. I also learned of a number of incidents such as a couple of nuclear weapons sent into space were destroyed by the extraterrestrials. Our government sent a nuclear weapon for explosion on the moon's surface...[And] the ETs destroyed the weapon as it went toward the moon. [Apparently] the idea of any explosion in space by any Earth government was not acceptable to the extraterrestrials, and that has been demonstrated over and over."

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Colonel Ross Dedrickson: US Air Force/Atomic Energy Commission, ret.): "After retiring from the Air Force I joined the Boeing company and was responsible for accounting for all of the nuclear fleet of Minuteman missiles. In this incident they actually photographed the UFO following the missile as it climbed into space and, shining a beam on it, neutralized the missile. I also learned of a number of incidents such as a couple of nuclear weapons sent into space were destroyed by the extraterrestrials. Our government sent a nuclear weapon for explosion on the moon's surface...[And] the ETs destroyed the weapon as it went toward the moon. [Apparently] the idea of any explosion in space by any Earth government was not acceptable to the extraterrestrials, and that has been demonstrated over and over."

What do you mean by "neutralized the missile"? We did not launch any with live nuclear warheads. That is a silly assertion.

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Why would they set of a nuclear warhead on the moon? Where did they release the weapon from? I seriously see idiocy when I think there doing crap like that. It doesn't not make a great deal of sense either. I could see serious problems arise if a nuclear warhead actually detonated on the moon. Especially with all of the fault lines from the possible shrinking. They need some rules agreed by UN that NO Nuclear weapons in space /end muttering

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interesting comments from michio kaku...

:)

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What do you mean by "neutralized the missile"? We did not launch any with live nuclear warheads. That is a silly assertion.

They probably mean that silly idea when they fired a rocket into the moon, to prove something or other (wasn't it to see if it vibrated or something, in order to see if it was hollow? Something like that, anyway.)

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Hey Pax, I don't know if anyone else has posted this, but thought you would find this interesting.

In November of 2006, United Airlines employees at O'Hare Airport in Chicago reported seeing a "flying saucerlike object" hovering over Concourse C of the United terminal. While most UFO sightings are dismissed as delusions by crazy people, a Chicago Tribune reporter followed up on the story--and said seasoned pilots, airline management and mechanics all came forward, shaken by what they saw.

While many people may have forgotten about the sighting, journalist Leslie Kean did not. In her new book, "UFOs: Generals, Pilots and Government Officials Go On the Record," Kean investigates some high profile UFO sightings from over the decades--most of which were acknowledged or investigated by governments or professional agencies.

Kean appeared on the "Colbert Report" with Stephen Colbert Monday to discuss her book--and Colbert brought up the infamous 2006 O'Hare sighting. Kean explained that though the story was big at the time, it blew over. She also said there should be more investigation into these sightings.

"This thing was hovering over Chicago O'Hare Airport at rush hour," Kean said. "Lots of people saw it. . . the U.S. government never said a word."

More here including videos

Here's a link to another article on HuffPost:

"UFOs" includes a foreword by John Podesta and riveting, first-person accounts written by over a dozen military and aviation witnesses and official investigators from around the world. Contributors include a former governor of Arizona, the former head of the FAA's Accidents and Investigations Division, military generals from five countries, a retired senior research scientist from NASA, Air Force and commercial pilots, and government officials from agencies investigating UFOs in their respective countries.

The "comments" sections are especially interesting in both articles.

Edited by archernyc

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Here is a list of high atitude nuclear tests from 1858-62, with codenames like Hardtack, Argus and Dominic/Fisbowl.

The highest one recorded was a nuclear blast at 540 kilometers (Argus III) on September 6, 1958. Another called Starfish Prime (one of the Dominic/Fishbowl tests)reached 399 kilometers on July 9, 1962.

My link

Here's a video on Operation Hardtack from 1958

http://en.kendincos.net/video-fvvrjlr-operation-hardtack-military-effects-studies-part-2-high-altitude-studies-1958.html

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Look at this link for a sensational testimony from Merele Shain McDow involving a UFO in 1979, tracked on radar and by satellites, which got pictures of it. It looked like a long cylinder with no lights or visible means of propulsion, no lights, and moving increadibly fast. Navy radar tacked it up and down the East Coast for over an hour as the Navy called in planes from as far away as Greenland to go after it, and made visual contact, but it was just "playing tag" like they often do.

Admoiral Trane and his officers were very scared and upset by this, and he give orders to bring it down in any way possible. Finally, it just left the atmosphere and shot off into space. It goes without saying they knew very quickly this wasn't the Soviets or anything else from earth.

Of course, at the end, the CIA suits showed up as they always do and told everyone to keep quiet about it.

My link

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And one of the most puzzling radar "invisible" cases from May 1967 that not even the Condon Committee could explain.

My link

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And one of the most puzzling radar "invisible" cases from May 1967 that not even the Condon Committee could explain.

My link

Let me guess, the right answer is...........ALIENS! Am I right?

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I looked at said link and I didn't really see anything that wasn't basic physics. Whatever described there are certainly interesting physics experiments, but not much else. Is there something specific you'd like me to comment on?

Cheers,

Badeskov

There's about 5 different sets of books - I want you to get the plasma one and look through it and tell us if you think any of them are viable.

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Pax, again, please do accept my apologies for the late entrance to this subject. So where is the incontrovertible evidence? All I see is various interpretations of certain events. All of which can have a number of interpretations and, frankly, in my point of view few of said interpretations have anything to do with ET. So where is this overwhelming evidence?

Cheers,

Badeskov

I don't know what to say to you....

I'm sure you've been looking into the UFO phenomenon as much as I have. I'm sure you've read all the stories and reports too.

Just looking at the links and posts on this little thread make me scratch my head.

How many 'ex-military guys', as one poster put it, have come out and said that they have had direct contact? 10, 20, 100?

I seriously doubt they are all lying.

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Before I respond to this post from Paxus (love the thread by the way!)... a tiny little anecdote...

I believe that badeskov was the first person to post about kites being mis-identified as UFOs (first post I read anyway, it may have been mentioned long ago...). When I first read that, I thought to myself "what kind of complete moron could possibly see a kite and think UFO?" Now, this was just a few days ago, mind you...

Yesterday around dusk, I was sitting in my office reading several threads here on UM, watching a youtube clip from one of them, and my fiancé yells from the front door, "booN! Come out here! Right now!" (she didn't actually say booN, but you get the picture.)

She sounded pretty serious, so I paused the youtube clip, jumped out of my chair, and jogged to the front porch. She said, "What the hell is that!?" and pointed off to the southern sky. Now, the house was blocking my view as I stepped out the door, so I came completely out, walked down the stairs, and looked up at what she was talking about.

There was this... "thing" that at first looked to me like a helicopter, because of the shape of it. I wasn't sure what to think. And then it started to move erratically, bobbing and jumping, like I would picture the movement of a jellyfish in water. Again from behind me, "What the F is that thing!?"

It actually raised my heart level. I wasn't sure what it was, but it looked like some crazy alien being dancing through the atmosphere at first. (clearly too many youtube videos and threads here on UM...) And then I saw the tail. The kite tail. And of course I chuckled, and explained what it was. And after we both realized it together, had a good laugh. (Don't give her a hard time, she didn't have her glasses on! Give me a hard time all you want though! :rolleyes: )

But I thought I'd throw that out there. This kite didn't have any flares on it, didn't have any glow sticks or anything, it was just a dark object bobbing around in the dusky sky. And for a brief second, I was actually concerned that it was something out of this world.

Don't dismiss the most common of objects in the sky as potential sources for these reports. It happens more often than people care to admit!

Now, to your post.

I don't know what to say to you....

I'm sure you've been looking into the UFO phenomenon as much as I have. I'm sure you've read all the stories and reports too.

Just looking at the links and posts on this little thread make me scratch my head.

How many 'ex-military guys', as one poster put it, have come out and said that they have had direct contact? 10, 20, 100?

I seriously doubt they are all lying.

I can't speak for badeskov on this, but as far as I'm concerned the proof is in the pudding. Don't get me wrong, I believe in extraterrestrial life, but I have no proof of it and have seen no proof of it. I believe that there are sightings of things which, to the observer, have no reasonable explanation at the time (even if it's just a kite bobbing around in the dusky sky...). But so far every piece of video I've seen of supposed UFOs is explainable, and to me that means that anyone who reports a UFO, whether they are in the military or not, could very well be just misinterpreting a completely terrestrial experience, even if it was completely surreal to them at the time.

All of the discussion about radar throwing false positives appears to a layman (like myself) as completely plausible in explaining such "evidence" as well.

I sincerely hope that you track down the irrefutable evidence we are all looking for. But so far, I haven't seen it presented. Keep looking though! By all means, we should all keep looking! If nothing else, it's extremely interesting - if not downright fascinating.

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I don't know what to say to you....

I'm sure you've been looking into the UFO phenomenon as much as I have. I'm sure you've read all the stories and reports too.

Just looking at the links and posts on this little thread make me scratch my head.

How many 'ex-military guys', as one poster put it, have come out and said that they have had direct contact? 10, 20, 100?

I seriously doubt they are all lying.

I think what most people feel is that some sort of tangible evidence to back up what they say might be helpful. Like there's some bloke in another thread who's talking about seeing an alien being shot on a military base. Now this is a fairly big claim, so it would surely help to at least have a photo of alleged incident that people could pore over. It seems that with all these people, the only evidence is them saying that it happened. Surely one out of these 100 ex-miltary guys must have something to be able to back up what they're saying? No one would expect a court of law to accept claims of this magnitude just on someone's testimony without some evidence to back it up. I think that's why there's an irony in the title of this thread; all the evidence seems to consist of is testimony, with no actual hard evidence to back it up.

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all the evidence seems to consist of is testimony, with no actual hard evidence to back it up.

Even things like radar returns are 'soft' evidence if there is nothing substantial to back it up. Even if you have a sighting, a radar return and military intercepts it doesn't prove anything without something tangible to be studied scientifically to determine it's origin (or lack thereof regarding Earth). That is what the ETH needs for a shot in the arm, something tangible. Without it the ETH will always have that nuisance of an H at the end.

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Before I respond to this post from Paxus (love the thread by the way!)... a tiny little anecdote...

I believe that badeskov was the first person to post about kites being mis-identified as UFOs (first post I read anyway, it may have been mentioned long ago...). When I first read that, I thought to myself "what kind of complete moron could possibly see a kite and think UFO?" Now, this was just a few days ago, mind you...

Yesterday around dusk, I was sitting in my office reading several threads here on UM, watching a youtube clip from one of them, and my fiancé yells from the front door, "booN! Come out here! Right now!" (she didn't actually say booN, but you get the picture.)

She sounded pretty serious, so I paused the youtube clip, jumped out of my chair, and jogged to the front porch. She said, "What the hell is that!?" and pointed off to the southern sky. Now, the house was blocking my view as I stepped out the door, so I came completely out, walked down the stairs, and looked up at what she was talking about.

There was this... "thing" that at first looked to me like a helicopter, because of the shape of it. I wasn't sure what to think. And then it started to move erratically, bobbing and jumping, like I would picture the movement of a jellyfish in water. Again from behind me, "What the F is that thing!?"

It actually raised my heart level. I wasn't sure what it was, but it looked like some crazy alien being dancing through the atmosphere at first. (clearly too many youtube videos and threads here on UM...) And then I saw the tail. The kite tail. And of course I chuckled, and explained what it was. And after we both realized it together, had a good laugh. (Don't give her a hard time, she didn't have her glasses on! Give me a hard time all you want though! :rolleyes: )

But I thought I'd throw that out there. This kite didn't have any flares on it, didn't have any glow sticks or anything, it was just a dark object bobbing around in the dusky sky. And for a brief second, I was actually concerned that it was something out of this world.

Don't dismiss the most common of objects in the sky as potential sources for these reports. It happens more often than people care to admit!

Sure this sort of thing happens but kites have been around for much longer than the UFO Phenomena. Before 1947 you would not have associated your experience with a kite with the UFO Phenomena as the UFO Phenomena didn't even exist in the mind of the populace. UFO's were never meant to be confused with everyday objects such as kites, historically they were always something much stranger that even Scientists and Military experts could not explain after evaluating the evidence. Such phenomena has only been acknowledged after 1947, assuming Kites that you don't immediately recognize fall into that category is a recent idea that is just wrong.

Basically only around 5 - 10% of reports people bother to report fall into the UFO category. The rest can be reasonably explained. Your Kite would fall into the "Freaked out" but "reasonably explained" category.

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There's about 5 different sets of books - I want you to get the plasma one and look through it and tell us if you think any of them are viable.

OK. I'll have a look at that one :-)

Cheers,

Badeskov

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Sure this sort of thing happens but kites have been around for much longer than the UFO Phenomena. Before 1947 you would not have associated your experience with a kite with the UFO Phenomena as the UFO Phenomena didn't even exist in the mind of the populace. UFO's were never meant to be confused with everyday objects such as kites, historically they were always something much stranger that even Scientists and Military experts could not explain after evaluating the evidence. Such phenomena has only been acknowledged after 1947, assuming Kites that you don't immediately recognize fall into that category is a recent idea that is just wrong.

Basically only around 5 - 10% of reports people bother to report fall into the UFO category. The rest can be reasonably explained. Your Kite would fall into the "Freaked out" but "reasonably explained" category.

I would agree to a certain extent. Clearly, 63 years ago you wouldn't have associated a kite with the UFO phenomena to the same extent as you do no, heck, I'd say even just 25-30 years ago you would not. But by the proliferation of information online and fora like this I do think that such has become more common. Admittedly, that is a my personal opinion, so you will have to take it as such ^_^ And once you see a kite in 3,500 ft elevation (because of the mountains), you can lose all sense of range and velocity perception. Thus, as Paxus naturally points out I cannot advocate for a single sighting being that of a kite, but I will say that I find it is part of the multiplicity that makes up this whole phenomena and has to be seen as such.

Cheers,

Badeskov

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I don't know what to say to you....

I'm sure you've been looking into the UFO phenomenon as much as I have. I'm sure you've read all the stories and reports too.

Just looking at the links and posts on this little thread make me scratch my head.

How many 'ex-military guys', as one poster put it, have come out and said that they have had direct contact? 10, 20, 100?

I seriously doubt they are all lying.

This is what I have a problem with, Pax. What is direct contact? Frankly, and by all means of respect, I have yet to see a case where the evidence for ET involvement is overwhelming. In fact, I have yet to see a case where there is anything that could be called evidence of any ET involvement at all. And if there was any such evidence from a scientific point of view, this present discussion would be completely different I would guess.

Somehow it always turns out that when data and witness testimonies are put under the looking glass and scrutinized in detail they tend to be not so conclusive as some would like to make them out to be - which I personally find rather sad, because the people promoting them seem to always have a book or DVD or a lecture or some such they can send you either free or for a minimum amount, if you just pay shipping and handling (which then amounts to some non-negligible amount added).

Cheers,

Badeskov

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