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LucidElement

Cro-Magnon

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For those who are not fimiliar with Cro-Magnon They are the earliest known relation to the modern man. They date back 35,000 too 50,000 years ago. It is just interesting to understand the Concept that it was these homo species to formulate the modern language. The question is how do you all think the cro-magnon started the spread of a modernized language?

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By copying the birds and animals. Squeeks, groans, grunts, chirps, howls and growls etc. What I'd like to know, is how the words were developed and the exact meaning of the words.

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The populace of the Canary Islands contains all the heredity of Cro-Magnon man, for any DNA study you want to subject them to!

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This article on reconstruction of Cro-Magnon language might help.

I actually find of interest where it says the Canary Islands (as you said) and an area of Sweden have the Cro-Magnon connections, the Berbers also show an ancient Swedish gene.

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:7EiHemVcxr8J:www.angelfire.com/film/materija/cromlang.pdf+cro-magnon+language&hl=en&gl=au&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESj41pEDZ6Vtee0BOLRQ4lw_DY053NVoltONtuw7Sfx49pVP_andgdjpGOF9NirMqpQik8rhRcZYviNIjlsmnA0oRgRaer3xSASCSL_P7qODNQNzvM2C82tVm90gzTqiRZtXzuyn&sig=AHIEtbQuggdWAMVPx_7fGGspnc3HVATuqg

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This article on reconstruction of Cro-Magnon language might help.

I actually find of interest where it says the Canary Islands (as you said) and an area of Sweden have the Cro-Magnon connections, the Berbers also show an ancient Swedish gene.

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:7EiHemVcxr8J:www.angelfire.com/film/materija/cromlang.pdf+cro-magnon+language&hl=en&gl=au&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESj41pEDZ6Vtee0BOLRQ4lw_DY053NVoltONtuw7Sfx49pVP_andgdjpGOF9NirMqpQik8rhRcZYviNIjlsmnA0oRgRaer3xSASCSL_P7qODNQNzvM2C82tVm90gzTqiRZtXzuyn&sig=AHIEtbQuggdWAMVPx_7fGGspnc3HVATuqg

That was the same link i had got while searching. But the idea of a Living Cro-Magnon Man is too hard to stomach. Cro-Magnon might live thru his genes in the population, not at all as a species separate from the modern homo sapiens.

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Posted (edited)

i think the best example of any relevant language communication , comes from the remnant hunter / forager tribes in Africa. they used insect like clicking sounds and other nature type sounds to communicate.as for how did it travel and what not. well, you may as well heap that with the phenomenon of humanity as it is. the human species, has a tons of these 'how did they all know/do/get/change' this way type of stuff. in the physiological realm alone we have 5 or 7 cladistics alone that happened all at once. round head, straight fingers, chin ..etc that cant be traced back.

however, one that remains even to this day fascinating is the migration of the layranx. which , i know you are asking specifically about cromagnon. i dont really recognize cromagnon a species. more of a transgression from homo erectus to us. you have to kind of take that into a consideration, seeing as how homo erectus skeletal remnants still exist in living asian populations. we were taught that culture is one thing that evolved with us, as a strategy . it was interesting to note that it is something that cant be physically traced except for the migration of the layranx. which did so simply for one reason.speech. there is no other real reason the layranx migrated down. this, is a human trait. when i look at all primates. they do not have this trait. it cant be traced past homo habilis. which , ironically they figured substituted physically grooming with vocal bonding. due to the massive groups they speculated homo hablis traversed in. at any rate, the act of communication and speech being the means, appears to be a human trait that extends past 'cromagnon' all the way back at least to homo habilis. this is what i took in anthropology.

still as you wish, i can speculate for you. since, as described the human race felt the need for communication to be so important that through selective breeding and hybridization we physically altered our antomy to better suit that purpose , one would have to also assume that it is instinctual behavior to also 'want to communicate'. in other words it would be pretty much as set in us as it is for say group of wolves to have a hierarchical order. one of those just is things/ i would also assume that to a degree that since around the world i see similar designs and shapes being etched out. that there is also a common yungian thing going on. birds exist everywhere. i imagine that showing a bird in flight with my hands is something of a universal symbol. in fact, it may be that a generic symbol with the recognizable sound would be how it started. so like um, say a bird type os symbol and the difference between the sound of a crow or a turkey or a chicken or even a hawk. then it probably just remained as a refined sound among common trading partners.( don't forget that horticulture most likely did exist , which was a form of offering to other tribal groups in exchange for favors. this did happen.) so the main way it traveled, this cromagnon language was most likely through trading and tribal interacting.if you are trying to say formulate how even the rudimentary spread began, i would propose that whoever it was that had controlled fire first would be the start of the greater spread or perhaps the dominant inciter of a vocal territorial language, that would of course spread. which would be either erectus or neandratalensis .simply because this enabled much greater range and therefore a greater physical influence.

Edited by wiredbadger

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That was the same link i had got while searching. But the idea of a Living Cro-Magnon Man is too hard to stomach. Cro-Magnon might live thru his genes in the population, not at all as a species separate from the modern homo sapiens.

Hard to say, seems there has been so many studies on them yet they still remain unknown in many respects.

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For those who are not fimiliar with Cro-Magnon They are the earliest known relation to the modern man. They date back 35,000 too 50,000 years ago.

The rest of this post might be relevant, but the above isn't even true.

It is just interesting to understand the Concept that it was these homo species to formulate the modern language. The question is how do you all think the cro-magnon started the spread of a modernized language?

There's no reason to assume that Homo Erectus didn't have language a million years ago.

Harte

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There's no reason to assume that Homo Erectus didn't have language a million years ago.

Harte

Especially since they had a tool complex and command of fire.

Lapiche

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For those who are not fimiliar with Cro-Magnon They are the earliest known relation to the modern man. They date back 35,000 too 50,000 years ago.
The Cro-Magnon (pronounced /kroʊˈmæɡnən/, French [kʁomaɲɔ̃]) were the first early modern humans (early Homo sapiens sapiens) of the European Upper Paleolithic in Europe. The earliest known remains of Cro-Magnon-like humans are radiometrically dated to 35,000 years before present.

and

Anatomically modern humans evolved in East Africa some 100 000 to 200 000 years ago. An exodus from Africa over the Arabian Peninsula around 60 000 years ago brought modern humans to Eurasia, with one group rapidly settling coastal areas around the Indian Ocean and one group migrating north to steppes of Central Asia.[17] A mitochondrial DNA sequence of two Cro-Magnons from the Paglicci Cave, Italy, dated to 23 000 and 24 000 years old (Paglicci 52 and 12), identified the mtDNA as Haplogroup N, typical of the latter group.[18] The inland group is the founder of North and East Asians (the "Mongol" people), Caucasoids and large sections of the Middle East and North African population. Migration from the Black Sea area into Europe started some 45 000 years ago, probably along the Danubian corridor. By 20 000 years ago, the whole of Europe was settled.

FYI, mtDNA Haplogroup N is a current haplogroup for modern human beings TODAY. In other words, they're not just "related", THEY ARE US.

Cro-Magnon

cormac

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There's no reason to assume that Homo Erectus didn't have language a million years ago.

Harte

Given the advantages in coordinating action that speech confers, I suspect any hominids with speech would quickly 'select out' their slightly less evolved neighbors. Once speech happened, it probably became universal very rapidly.

Edited by PersonFromPorlock

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Of course.

That is, unless a person from Porlock happened by, disturbing their thought processes.

Place was probably called "Porock way back then.

Source

Harte

Edited by Harte

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Harte. It says in the book that the cro-magnon established how to use their voice box 35 to 40,000 years ago. Of corse there was some sort of language millions of years ago, but the voice box came to play 35-40k years ago.

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I think it would be clearer to define clearly, what it is we are talking about here. Are you talking about just any form of communication or the ability of communicating complex ideas to one another?

One being "oh crap Big Cat!! RUN!!!" as opposed to the "I have invented this really handy and pointy stick, which is really good for fishing and killing small animals for food. Allow me to show you how to fabricate and use it." OK I exaggerate, but you get the idea.

Homo Erectus was certainly capable of the latter, according to Richard Leakey, he was apparently also capable of articulate speech / language, both brain-size and the presence of the Broca's area support this theory (source : Richard Leakey - 1992 -Origins Reconsidered).

Given that, excavations dating from approximately 790,000 years ago in Israel suggest that Homo Erectus not only controlled fire but could light fires (source), one can surmise that articulate speech / language must have developed in parallel. So articulate speech / language could be a lot older than generally thought.

What it comes down to is this, if Homo Erectus had rudimentary articulate speech / language skills, we can assume that the later Cro Magnon had as well.

This said, it's just a theory and nothing else. Feel free to correct me, if I'm wrong. And LucidElement, what book is it you are talking about? SO I know what you are referring to. Thanks.

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Harte. It says in the book that the cro-magnon established how to use their voice box 35 to 40,000 years ago. Of corse there was some sort of language millions of years ago, but the voice box came to play 35-40k years ago.

Must be an old book.

Harte

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Especially since they had a tool complex and command of fire.

Lapiche

Good point Piney, that pretty much proves they could say OW! and Son of a .....!*!*!

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Harte, always gotta debate about stuff.. and no here is a link that states there 35,000 years old!!!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cro-Magnon

MY GOD MAN!!! your soo stubborn!

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Voice Box? I thought it had to do with the development of the flapping jaw! :yes: No doubt most creatures could make some sort of sound right from the get go, therefore, they must have had a voice box (larynx) but to be able to make speech, they needed that hinged jaw. Monkeys can be trained to communicate with a sign board or digital image board, but they cannot speak.

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Voice Box? I thought it had to do with the development of the flapping jaw! :yes: No doubt most creatures could make some sort of sound right from the get go, therefore, they must have had a voice box (larynx) but to be able to make speech, they needed that hinged jaw. Monkeys can be trained to communicate with a sign board or digital image board, but they cannot speak.

What do you mean by "hinged jaw"? A great many animals have that. Some, including various snakes I believe, have a double-hinge that allows them to open even wider, the better to gobble up rodents, house pets, and small children. :devil:

Speech is a lot more complicated. Many creatures also have some form of larynx and "voice box," but the very shape or morphology of this part of the anatomy is critical to producing speech, as are related structures like the tongue. A subtle difference in the architecture and physiognomy of these features will allow or preclude speech. Of course also critical is the development of key parts of the brain. This last is the most important of all. Many animals can produce complex variances of sound but only Homo sapiens sapiens are capable of true, cognizant speech.

And some of us Homo sapiens sapiens are so capable of speech that it's hard to shut us up. I'm referring to myself, of course.

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"The question is how do you all think the cro-magnon started the spread of a modernized language?"

They told a few women some secret stuff and before they knew it, everyone on the planet was talking about it.

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"The question is how do you all think the cro-magnon started the spread of a modernized language?"

They told a few women some secret stuff and before they knew it, everyone on the planet was talking about it.

Before the women of UM band together to smite you, let me just say, Eldorado...that was damn funny. :lol:

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"The question is how do you all think the cro-magnon started the spread of a modernized language?"

Considering, once again, that Cro-magnon ARE US, who says we started the spread of any form of language, let alone a modernized one at any point within the last 35,000 years? Neanderthals had a modern hyoid bone (as well), necessary for speech, from c.60,000 BP.

The origin of human language, and in particular the question of whether or not Neanderthal man was capable of language/speech, is of major interest to anthropologists but remains an area of great controversy. Despite palaeoneurological evidence to the contrary, many researchers hold to the view that Neanderthals were incapable of language/speech, basing their arguments largely on studies of laryngeal/basicranial morphology. Studies, however, have been hampered by the absence of unambiguous fossil evidence. We now report the discovery of a well-preserved human hyoid bone from Middle Palaeolithic layers of Kebara Cave, Mount Carmel, Israel, dating from about 60,000 years BP. The bone is almost identical in size and shape to the hyoid of present-day populations, suggesting that there has been little or no change in the visceral skeleton (including the hyoid, middle ear ossicles, and inferentially the larynx) during the past 60,000 years of human evolution. We conclude that the morphological basis for human speech capability appears to have been fully developed during the Middle Palaeolithic.

A Middle Palaeolithic human hyoid bone

and in addition this:

This study describes and compares two hyoid bones from the middle Pleistocene site of the Sima de los Huesos in the Sierra de Atapuerca (Spain). The Atapuerca SH hyoids are humanlike in both their morphology and dimensions, and they clearly differ from the hyoid bones of chimpanzees and Australopithecus afarensis. Their comparison with the Neandertal specimens Kebara 2 and SDR-034 makes it possible to begin to approach the question of temporal variation and sexual dimorphism in this bone in fossil humans. The results presented here show that the degree of metric and anatomical variation in the fossil sample was similar in magnitude and kind to living humans. Modern hyoid morphology was present by at least 530 kya and appears to represent a shared derived feature of the modern human and Neandertal evolutionary lineages inherited from their last common ancestor.

Human hyoid bones from the middle Pleistocene site of the Sima de los Huesos (Sierra de Atapuerca, Spain)

As to a hyoid bone, and possible speech, in Homo erectus:

Authors describe a hyoid bone body, without horns, attributed to Homo erectus from Castel di Guido (Rome, Italy), dated to about 400,000 years BP. The hyoid bone body shows the bar-shaped morphology characteristic of Homo, in contrast to the bulla-shaped body morphology of African apes and Australopithecus. Its measurements differ from those of the only known complete specimens from other extinct human species and early hominid (Kebara Neandertal and Australopithecus afarensis), and from the mean values observed in modern humans. The almost total absence of muscular impressions on the body's ventral surface suggests a reduced capability for elevating this hyoid bone and modulating the length of the vocal tract in Homo erectus. The shield-shaped body, the probable small size of the greater horns and the radiographic image appear to be archaic characteristics; they reveal some similarities to non-humans and pre-human genera, suggesting that the morphological basis for human speech didn't arise in Homo erectus.

A Homo erectus hyoid bone: possible implications for the origin of the human capability for speech.

cormac

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Good post, cormac. I didn't even mention the hyoid bone. Goodness knows, it's kind of, sort of important to the whole issue of speech. :lol:

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Good post, cormac. I didn't even mention the hyoid bone. Goodness knows, it's kind of, sort of important to the whole issue of speech. :lol:

Thanks, kmt_sesh. Kind of puts the kibosh on the whole "Cro-Magnons were first" tact that's being taken here. Don't you think?

cormac

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Thanks, kmt_sesh. Kind of puts the kibosh on the whole "Cro-Magnons were first" tact that's being taken here. Don't you think?

cormac

I don't know. I've met some people who remind me of Cro-Magnons and they do seem to grunt a lot. I'm always waiting for them to drool.

Unfortunately I used to be a fan of that old sci-fi television show called Sliders. I can't even remember the premise anymore but I think they were sliding into and out of parallel universes. They kept coming up against powerful armies of Cro-Mags, so now when I hear "Cro-Magnon" I tend to think of something like this. :w00t:

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