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Aus Der Box Skeptisch

where did the "sumerians" come from?

244 posts in this topic

Reply to kmt_sesh post of 03.40

Once again a very interesting post

Enheduanna was Akkadian, my bad memory, but from what I recall the religious beliefs of the Akkadians came from the Sumerians, with a few name changes, so the creation myths of the Sumerians, as the earliest culture, may have been passed down, at least in part, to later cultures of the area.

'There is no firm evidence for cults of Osiris and Isis until late in Dynasty 5, toward the end of the Egyptian Old Kingdom, by which time Akkad ruled what's now Iraq and the Sumerians were already fading from history....'

But surely the creation myths of the AE also involved the active involvement of a feminine deity, a Goddess ?

The point which is relevant to this topic on UM, of where did the Sumerians come from, is - where did the Sumerians think they came from ? What did they see as their origins ? They were a very advanced culture and from reading some Sumerian poetry in a Kramer book years ago they had some interesting and sensitive ideas. All this was done under a religious belief in which the Goddess was a very important element.

It makes one ask what impact this may have had on their developement as the first major civilisation ?

'...But the biblical Abraham would've lived long before these events, and the Chaldeans did not even exist that far back in time. It's a good example of how the scribes who penned the Old Testament were drawing on peoples and events of their own time to manufacture a narrative for something much farther back in time. As it is there is no extrabiblical evidence for the existence of the biblical Abraham, although someone like him may have existed; or, perhaps more likely, he was a literary invention or synthesis used to represent any number of actual founders of the Hebrew culture.....'

The point I was trying to make, probably badly, was - why did the scribes of the OT choose to make Abraham an exile from Ur in earlier Sumer ?

He went north we are told and then down to the Holy Land to the 'sanctuary' of Shechem which was not a new site but an ancient Canaanite holy site to their deities. The other site in the Holy Land important to the story of Abraham is Mamre which is also an ancient Canaanite sacred site from long before the possible time Abraham. The Abrahamic stories seem to have been superimposed on sites that had religious importance to the original inhabitants of the land who worshipped Gods and Goddesses.

As you have already noted their was clearly a long attempt to eliminate a female partner for the God of the OT and also to write out Sumer and its culture from recorded history. This was successful until recent years but we now know much more about this amazing early civilisation and its creation stories involving the actions of Gods and Goddesses. The ways these are told indicates some trial and error but the Goddess finally created other Goddesses to cure the ills of Enki out of which Kramer suggests comes the biblical spin of woman from the rib of man.

'There is really no such thing as the "sacred feminine" of Dan Brown fame......'

Is that not also rather a bold statement. Taking the subject of the Sumerians they would clearly not have agreed as the Goddess was thought by them to be important to their creation, religion and life. This, as I am sure you are aware, goes back long before their time to images of the Goddess from sometimes thousands of years earlier. As this topic is about the origins of the Sumerians, from memory, it is the Goddess Inanna who obtains, and possibly then looses, the 'ME' which seemed to be a source of knowledge and power in Sumerian belief. Maybe this reflects an element of struggle between their male and female deities ?

In this general area of the ancient world some myths seem to indicate that it is the Goddess who is 'Queen' of the land and then chooses which partner to be her 'King'. This element of feminine power, which may have been acceptable to the early Sumerians and others, is totally contrary to the later concept that women are possessions and daughters were to be sold or told who to marry for financial or political gain.

In early belief the choice of the feminine may well have been considered 'sacred' and linked to the Goddess.

All this is interesting historical and prehistorical conjecture but the aftermath continues to have a huge impact on our world today.

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The ansesters of the Asian man from the peking man fought with the co magnon man and took the women. The Sumerians are of this mixture.So where did they come from ? Both cultures are there.Gee better then comming from aliens:)

Edited by docyabut2

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The ansesters of the Asian man from the peking man fought with the co magnon man and took the women. The Sumerians are of this mixture.So where did they come from ? Both cultures are there.Gee better then comming from aliens:)

Making things up doesn't make them true. Peking Man (Homo erectus) didn't exist during the time of Cro-magnon Man (Homo sapiens sapiens - US). Which makes any claims of the Sumerians ancestry completely wrong in this regard.

cormac

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Making things up doesn't make them true. Peking Man (Homo erectus) didn't exist during the time of Cro-magnon Man (Homo sapiens sapiens - US). Which makes any claims of the Sumerians ancestry completely wrong in this regard.

cormac

Well maybe I worded that wrong the desendants of the Peking Man :)

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Well maybe I worded that wrong the desendants of the Peking Man :)

You've used Cro-magnon man in this way before, docy. Cormac has pointed it out, but I'll reiterate: Cro-magnon is the same as Homo sapien. "Cro-magnon" is simply a French term deriving from the discovery of ancient human remains in southwest France. Therefore, by nature, it's a very localized term that reached greater popularity than it probably should have. And I might add it's a rather outdated term.

Sumerians were just another ethnic group of Homo sapiens. The mysteries surrounding them should not lead us to whimsical exaggerations.

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You've used Cro-magnon man in this way before, docy. Cormac has pointed it out, but I'll reiterate: Cro-magnon is the same as Homo sapien. "Cro-magnon" is simply a French term deriving from the discovery of ancient human remains in southwest France. Therefore, by nature, it's a very localized term that reached greater popularity than it probably should have. And I might add it's a rather outdated term.

Sumerians were just another ethnic group of Homo sapiens. The mysteries surrounding them should not lead us to whimsical exaggerations.

but kmt were`nt the cro magnon the frist white race that turned white from the lack of the ultra violent rays?

Edited by docyabut2

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but kmt were`nt the cro magnon the frist white race that turn white from the lack of the violent rays?

Paleolithic humans in Europe, yes. I would honestly abandon the "Cro-magnon" designation, docy, as it really is something of a misnomer. Humans entered Europe around 45,000 BP but it wasn't until around 12,000 BP (and probably later than that) when white skin developed. We can't be sure this occurred in France, as far as I know, so using the term "Cro-magnon" in this context is even more off the mark.

Cormac is more knowledgeable in this field of study than I am, so perhaps he can elaborate.

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but kmt were`nt the cro magnon the frist white race that turned white from the lack of the ultra violent rays?

I'm not sure which is worse, your using an outdated and therefore meaningless term for HSS or using it in such a way as to relate it to race. Neither of which is correct. Cro-magnon is an outdated term for Homo sapiens sapiens from the Paleolithic whereas genetic evidence suggests that Europeans didn't start to acquire pale/white skin until the Holocene c.4000 BC - 10,000 BC. Which is after the last glacial period but during the period of time when the domestication of wheat, barley and other agricultural produce was expanding into Europe via Anatolia. Not that either has anything to do with the Sumerians, they don't.

cormac

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I'm not sure which is worse, your using an outdated and therefore meaningless term for HSS or using it in such a way as to relate it to race. Neither of which is correct. Cro-magnon is an outdated term for Homo sapiens sapiens from the Paleolithic whereas genetic evidence suggests that Europeans didn't start to acquire pale/white skin until the Holocene c.4000 BC - 10,000 BC. Which is after the last glacial period but during the period of time when the domestication of wheat, barley and other agricultural produce was expanding into Europe via Anatolia. Not that either has anything to do with the Sumerians, they don't.

cormac

Homo Sapians left Africa 200,000 years ago and your saying the skin mellons only turned 4000 to 10,000 bc?

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Homo Sapians left Africa 200,000 years ago and your saying the skin mellons only turned 4000 to 10,000 bc?

That's what genetics studies have determined:

Researchers have disagreed for decades about an issue that is only skin-deep: How quickly did the first modern humans who swept into Europe acquire pale skin? Now a new report on the evolution of a gene for skin color suggests that Europeans lightened up quite recently, perhaps only 6000 to 12,000 years ago. This contradicts a long-standing hypothesis that modern humans in Europe grew paler about 40,000 years ago, as soon as they migrated into northern latitudes.

and

Either way, the implication is that our European ancestors were brown-skinned for tens of thousands of years—a suggestion made 30 years ago by Stanford University geneticist L. Luca Cavalli-Sforza. He argued that the early immigrants to Europe, who were hunter-gatherers, herders, and fishers, survived on ready-made sources of vitamin D in their diet. But when farming spread in the past 6000 years, he argued, Europeans had fewer sources of vitamin D in their food and needed to absorb more sunlight to produce the vitamin in their skin.

http://galsatia.file...nche_paleur.pdf

cormac

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Skin mellons? Do you mean melatonin, docyabut2?

Homo sapiens may have left Africa around 200,000 years ago but they did not enter Europe until around 45,000 years ago.

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There's more than one way to skin a mellon.

Or, so I hear.

Harte

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There's more than one way to skin a mellon.

Or, so I hear.

Harte

could be, in any case: you need a sharp implement.

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Well...

God decided to make/bake a human.

He made a human and put him the oven and went for a long walk.

When he came back, the human was overbaked and black in colour.

Thus came the 1st human - From Africa.

God decided that since the 1st human was overbaked, he should pay more attention. he stayed next to the oven and was very impatient.

He took out the human earlier than he was supposed to.

The human was pale in color.

Thus came the white human.

God decided that this time he would take all care and do it right

He baked another human. he waited next to the oven and took out the human in the right time.

Thus came the perfectly baked human - The Indians.

lol. an old story.

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When in doubt, look it up

Hey! You can lose your Guy Card for that. It's as bad as stopping and asking for directions!

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That's what genetics studies have determined:

and

http://galsatia.file...nche_paleur.pdf

cormac

Not be silly or anything:) but I thought it was the cave dwellings of living in the cold that made homo sapians turn lighter, lack of the ultra violet rays

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Not be silly or anything:) but I thought it was the cave dwellings of living in the cold that made homo sapians turn lighter, lack of the ultra violet rays

I hope cormac will also answer but light skin is better at absorbing the sun's heat, and hence building more Vitamin D in the body. In other words, the development of light skin was an eventual environmental adaptation to the brutal Ice Age climate of Paleolithic time.

It's a common misconception that Paleolithic people in Europe lived in caves, and so our common term "cave man" is actually inaccurate. While numerous sites of inhabitation have been found and excavated, they are usually not inside caves.

Edited by kmt_sesh
Clarification

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Not be silly or anything:) but I thought it was the cave dwellings of living in the cold that made homo sapians turn lighter, lack of the ultra violet rays

Cave dwellings had little to nothing to do with it. It was the result of migrating northward that caused a genetic trigger which allowed the production of Vitamin D in people inhabiting more northern areas where the sunlight was neither as direct nor as intense. And as kmt_sesh has mentioned "cave men" is a bit of a misnomer since most never lived in caves, particularly full time/year round. Which means you're basing your ideas off a rather cartoonish (although somewhat understandable) idea from well over 100 years ago.

Edit to add: All of this means that early modern humans (Hss) that inhabited Europe were brown skinned for around 30,000 years before the genetic trigger that initiated the development of pale skin.

cormac

Edited by cormac mac airt

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Cave dwellings had little to nothing to do with it. It was the result of migrating northward that caused a genetic trigger which allowed the production of Vitamin D in people inhabiting more northern areas where the sunlight was neither as direct nor as intense. And as kmt_sesh has mentioned "cave men" is a bit of a misnomer since most never lived in caves, particularly full time/year round. Which means you're basing your ideas off a rather cartoonish (although somewhat understandable) idea from well over 100 years ago.

Edit to add: All of this means that early modern humans (Hss) that inhabited Europe were brown skinned for around 30,000 years before the genetic trigger that initiated the development of pale skin.

cormac

If homo sapians migrating northward caused a genetic trigger and only turned lighter 6000 to 12,000 years ago, how to you explained the American indian that migrated northward through the bering straits 14,000 years ago, of the last ice age, that are brown to red skinned? Some how I think some homosapians turned lighter a lot longer then 30,000 years ago. I would say because some stayed in the European caves of the colder climates, instead of migrating like the co magon man.

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This topic seems to have drifted far from the origins of the Sumerians and the rise of the world's first major civilisation. It would seem that we do not know where they came from, if anywhere. They may have developed from hunter gatherer groups in the place they later settled with a lifestyle and location that lent itself to advancement. They believed that it was the influence of their Gods and Goddesses that made them the way were, a highly intelligent and inventive race of people, who were later overun by groups who may have used some of their ideas but may not have follow all their religious and cultural beliefs.

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This topic seems to have drifted far from the origins of the Sumerians and the rise of the world's first major civilisation. It would seem that we do not know where they came from, if anywhere. They may have developed from hunter gatherer groups in the place they later settled with a lifestyle and location that lent itself to advancement.

Pretty much everyone developed from hunter-gatherers.

However, the Sumerian culture displaced the Ubadian culture in Southern Mesopotamia, so they came from somewhere else.

Maybe Northern Mesopotamia, I suppose.

Harte

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If homo sapians migrating northward caused a genetic trigger and only turned lighter 6000 to 12,000 years ago, how to you explained the American indian that migrated northward through the bering straits 14,000 years ago, of the last ice age, that are brown to red skinned? Some how I think some homosapians turned lighter a lot longer then 30,000 years ago.

If it took more than 30,000 years for the change to lighter skin to occur in early Europeans and Native Americans have only been in the Americas some c.14,000 years, that should tell you something. Namely that there hasn't been sufficient time for said change to take affect in them as well. Not that that's likely since in todays world one can move anywhere they please and therefore pretty much negates the necessity for one skin-tone over another.

.........

Maybe Northern Mesopotamia, I suppose.

Based on cultural similarities, particularly with pottery styles, there is some thought that the Sumerians originated from the Samarran Culture of Northern Mesopotamia from around Tell es-Sawwan.

cormac

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Hungarians would love to tell you that the Sumerians came from their country, but that's what the Rumanians say too, lol.

Let's say they would agree on the Balkans, based on script found there that resembles the precursor of the Sumerian cuneiform script.

And I read somewhere that the Sumerians themselves say they came from the north, but I don't know what's true about that.

I never heard that before.Where did you learn this. I myself have no idea where the Sumerians came from.Could they possibly come from somewhere east maybe?

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If homo sapians migrating northward caused a genetic trigger and only turned lighter 6000 to 12,000 years ago, how to you explained the American indian that migrated northward through the bering straits 14,000 years ago, of the last ice age, that are brown to red skinned? Some how I think some homosapians turned lighter a lot longer then 30,000 years ago. I would say because some stayed in the European caves of the colder climates, instead of migrating like the co magon man.

The issue with Native Americans is an interesting question and probably not something I am fully equipped to answer. However, to hazard a guess (help me out here, cormac) I'd have to say it's due more to their own genetic mixture. Native Americans journeying across the Bering Straight thousands of years ago were a different race from Europeans, having come from ancient Asian populations. And to this day most Asians have brownish-colored skin. The first Europeans, on the other hand, came from a more "Middle Eastern" ethnicity, and to this day many Middle Easterners can be rather light skinned.

But the idea of living in caves is no longer accepted, docy. Extensive acrhcaeological excavations in Europe have found sites of Paleolithic inhabitations largely in river valleys and other sheltered locations (including alongside large rock overhangs), but to this day there is no demonstrable evidence that Paleolithic peoples of Europe lived in caves.

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